Pitching Injuries

And what else should the parents do - tell the coach what kind of pitches their child can throw? and to whom? an when? When does the child actually start taking responsibility for himself? How long does a parent meddle? or be a "helicopter parent"? If the child doesn't learn how to assert himself now, then when does he get to that point?

I know more coaches around here that would respect the conversation and dialogue coming from the player than the parent(s). Now if player says he talked to coach and coach still ignores him, then yes, it's time for a parent to step in and I'd take the player along so neither can claim the other never said anything. If your player didn't have the conversation yet, it'll be very obvious.

I cannot believe *any* coach is looking at a parent waiting for the "1 or 2 fingers to signal last batters" sign. Your nationally recognized pitching coach thinks its better for a parent to be another coach - guess I'm glad my child doesn't play for him. That says to me he sees the player as an arm to use and not an individual. A player that can come in every inning, find out where he's at pitch count wise, and think about how to approach the next 3 batters based on PC, spot in order, what they've done previously, etc. - that says to me I have a pitcher that's thinking not only about this game, but long term as well. Coach - I'm at 85, I have the bottom of the order coming up, I'm good to to one more is far better than a mound visit after some parents' 1 or 2 more batters signal that hasn't given the reliever enough time to warm up and grief from some other parent because their child was put into the game without being ready.

I just hope that in the near future rules will be set in place for pitch count so parents don't have to be the bad guy.  

It's hard to enjoy a game when your son is pitching and you are worried about pitch count. 

What strategy would you employ to shut your son down in case a HC ignores your signals? 

I'm going to be honest with you and say that would be pretty hard to follow in the heat of the game.  You did some good work in putting that together but it's still a little too much.  Probably good starting point but still needs to be simplified more.

First let me say that pre-season I'm more than happy to sit down with parent and discuss limitations on a freshman or sophomore.  I have no problem coming up with a plan for that kid to protect his arm - even if he throws 70 MPH and doesn't project well.

Second I have no problem meeting after practice or on an off day to revise the plan due to whatever reasons.  But never talk to me after a close loss because I'll be ticked off and won't have an open mind.  I'm still a human being no matter how much I try to work with you and have an open mind.

Third there's no way in the world will I ever look for a sign from a parent in the stands as to when to pull their kid.  You better learn to trust my system to protect pitchers or learn to trust that I'll follow the plan we develop.  But you won't tell me when to pull any kid even your own.  If you can't handle that then we need to go separate ways.

Fourth I still would rather have this discussion with the kid to help him learn to grow into becoming responsible adult.  I'm not going to rip into him or make him look stupid.  I'm going to do what I can to help him because that's my job.  I will try to bring the conversation out of him even if he doesn't know what to say.  My jmb is to help your kid and work with him but end of the day he's going to do what I say or we need to go our separate ways.  Nothing wrong with that.

The problem is not all coaches think the way I do (of course I'm assuming what I do is good for the player) and can be jerks, uninformed, clueless - whatever.  Now this becomes a huge challenge for the player and the parent.  I'm not sure what the answer truly is to be honest.  But I think parents mess up not trying to find out ahead of time if the coach is open and willing to work with you or if they are a jerk.  Unless you know the best way to approach the coach is assuming he gets it and has a clue then let him prove you wrong.  By doing this and the coach does have a clue then you got smooth sailing.  If you don't and he does have a clue you've already created a harsh environment for no reason.

Coaches looking into the stands for a parent to tell them when their player is done is ridiculous.  I have had pre-season dicussuions with the HC about pitching limitations for the up coming season for 2018....( freshman)   2018 would not come out of the game until his arm fell off.  When I talked to the coach, I did not demand anything from him.  I did not give him any hard numbers.  I asked him what he though was a good plan for 2018 given that he throws very hard for his age.  And barring injury should have a nice HS and college career.  Keep in mind this HC has sent many many pitchers to SEC schools , minors and majors...

He said that they usually have an idea about where "EACH" pitcher is going to be as far as pitch count, innings and how often they should pitch.  Also if he will be a starter or a relief guy.. He went on to say that due to 2018's age, style and body type his number would be lower than usual.  He also said that early on he will get innings in tourney games and would try to get him in to relieve in tight spots to see what happens. Then decide where he can help the team going forward.   I also talke to him about the issue of pitching varsity and playing JV and how that would work.  He said that when the varsity does not need 2018 he can play with JV and will pitch JV if he needs the work.  But they would tell him well in advance which direction he would be going for the week.

So I have no reason to think that he would ever deviate from his plan.  I did not ask him about 2016.... 2016 should be the 1 or 2 pitcher and this is his 3rd year in the program... Honestly , ( to the parents) these coaches know your son very well by the time they are jr's.... if the coach has not history of abusing pitchers, then stay out of the way.   We are lucky that we have 7 coaches on the staff 2 managers , a trainer at every game and off-day pitchers keeping stats, pitch counts. pitch locations etc.... let me also say that while pitch limits are very important, girls, parties, grades ( lack of) , xbox, etc... will ruin a career faster than a coach throwing him 10 extra ptiches.

Before I even try to do anything else, let me state this so there’s no mistaking that I believe the pure numbers alone could ever do a perfect job of judging when to let a pitcher keep going or yank him. The numbers are great to have, but they only serve as guidelines because things like pitches starting to get “UP” in the zone, control beginning to wane, body language, more time taken between pitches, etc. tell a whole lot of the story as well and need to be considered.

Having said that, every coach/manager who is responsible for yanking a pitcher or leaving him in uses numbers in some way to help him make that decision, even if they don’t realize they’re doing it. All I’m trying to do here is to get how the numbers are used in a form so they’ll be consistent.

AGDAD19, very nice 1^st try! I was cogitatin’ on it myself some yesterday, and had some difficulty in figuring out a way to represent what had taken place. The way I understand what you’re proposing is to use the REAL pitch count, then make additions and subtractions after each inning to get a number. That’s fine by me, but is that the way it’s really done as the game goes on? I’ve always gotten the feeling it was something that was a constant decision making process a pitch at a time rather than an inning by inning thing.

I do like the way you’d taken into account rest between innings, but what about when the pitcher bats, as very often happen is HS? It’s one thing if the pitcher just sits on the bench, but it’s another if he also has to bat, quite another if he becomes a base runner, and another still if he has to do a lot of running. It would seem to me that if the latter happens, rather than getting rest and acquiring “good” points, he’d actually be fatiguing himself even more, acquiring “bad” points.

What do you think about a “running” number as opposed to a number computed by inning?

coach2709,

I completely understand that you need to be in charge, but no matter what happens, no coach in the world can or should cut parents out of the loop since they’re the ones ultimately responsible for their child, assuming he’s still under age.

Like you said, not all coaches think like you do, but more importantly, not all coaches have a high degree of experience in handling pitchers. So maybe on your team I don’t have to worry about it, but on some other team my concerns might well be legitimate, but under your philosophy I can either accept it or pack my bags. Isn’t there some middle ground here?

I completely agree that a parent shouldn't be left out of the loop but there is a time and place for that.  During the middle of the game is not it.  These are things that need to be hashed out in the preseason or if there is an injury during the season then we meet to figure out a plan to help them.  If I follow the plan then parent shouldn't come up and be mad about something.  Want to adjust the plan we will / can but don't do anything underhanded to go behind my back.  Just wrong and these things do happen.  Long time ago I got wind that a parent was calling pitches from the stands for his kid but I was also calling pitches because I wasn't very smart at the time due to my youth.  I have no idea if he was calling them or not but if he was then we had the same game plan because that kid threw every pitch I called.  Probably bunch of people wanting to stir up trouble but it does happen.  If I had found out it was going on I probably would have dismissed him from the team.

I don't know what the solution is to find that middle ground for everyone and probably isn't solution.  All we can do is post on here and hope a new coach or parent can read it and learn from it.  Or talk to others out there when we can before games, at meetings or anywhere.

coach2709,

The good thing about all this is that while those bad things do happen, thankfully they don’t happen very often. What’s sad is, when you’re in the middle of something like that as a coach, player, or parent, it can be all consuming. It would be great if everyone could just get together and talk these things out without any animosity, but I’ve found out more than once that when family members get into a “protective” mode, deserved or not, everything goes downhill at avalanche speed. Hopefully the coach doesn’t get into a “protective” mode too because that just makes things all the worse.

The real sadness is, it’s seldom the player making the problem worse, but he’s always the one who suffers the most.

AGDAD19,

I didn’t understand what the base number came from. Now I’m “assuming” that number is the total pitches the pitcher has thrown, then there are additions and subtractions to that number based on the given criteria.

What “prescribed” pitch count are you talking about?

Personally, I don’t care how complicated the algorithm is because the computer doesn’t care. Unfortunately, since I’m the only person in the world using the program that has all the information already available, I’m afraid that means someone’s gonna be doing some work to get an answer.

I agree that the pitching “loads” on the body are much different than the hitting or running loads. But what I was thinking about wasn’t the load on the arm, but rather the load on the legs. Tired legs are a roadmap to pitching problems, and running can tax the legs, plus when a player’s running the bases or batting, he’s not RESTING which is  a huge part of you calculation. I’m not saying it’s a game stopper, but I am saying it should definitely be considered.

Like you I’m always up for a discussion about pitcher safety. That’s what led me into PAP, PAP^3, and PAP with stress. When I got into PAP with stress I wanted to also factor in pitches in an inning and rest, but to be honest I never found the time. Now that I have the time I’ve been thinking about it a lot. I’m in the process of putting my thoughts together now. If and when I get that done I’ll PM you a copy and we can talk about it some more.

There ya go Stats high jacking another topic!

Way to go!

AGDAD19, check your dialogs.

I thought I understood it, but now I’m beginning to wonder.

If you start with a given number off the chart, why wouldn’t he get credit for an 8 pitch inning in the 1^st?

Have you tried to use your method in action? When I test something like that, I go to MLB.com and score a past game from the play by play.

Been messing around with adjusting the total pitches based on the total pitches and pitches in an inning to see if pure pitch counts can’t be improved on. I'm pretty sure I have that done fairly well. Its been suggested that the amount of rest between innings for the pitcher should also be a factor, and now I’m trying to get a handle on that as well.

Here’s the theory. Let’s say 2 pitchers throw a 25 pitch inning. The pitcher who gets say 20 minutes rest before having to pitch again will be less fatigued than the one who only got 10 minutes rest. That seems like good common sense and not something I’d argue with, but how would that be represented?

Getting the rest time for me is no problem at all since I have a clock running all the time anyway. Whether that time should be factored in, and if so how, is the question.