Pitching Injuries

I believe this nails it!

Some of us are in small towns. We have no one to really talk to about issues/questions. I didn't find this site until my son was basically 16 or so. And even then, how do you take the advice of a stranger that you've never met. The more you read though, you realize that many on this board, including this poster knows their stuff. My advice would be to read and read and then read some more on this site. "Follow" some of the posters. You will get emails when they post something. Then save the emails when they post something that really hits home with you. I went back and read some Dialogs that I've had with Fenway and TPM last night. I was such a novice when I asked them some questions. I'm smarter now but probably not by a lot. I am learning though. This site is wonderful!!!

Some of the injuries to pitchers happen because of the ignorance of pitch counts. 

Our high school coach had my son throw 125 pitches and 140 pitches in two separate games.  Supposedly this coach was a pitcher in a small college during his younger days. 

Now compound this with kids playing in the field after pitching or pitching in one game and catching in the next. 

I think as parents we need to make a hard stand about this.  It's not easy being the bad guy especially with larger schools who have more kids to choose from. 

 

Its on you, why did you allow it?  

Thats the issue maybe, parents are afraid if they say something their son will not be in the game. Your son is being used that way because he is good.

Protect your pitcher.

My son was a freshman on Varsity last year.  The first game my son pitched a complete game that gave the other team their first regular season loss in 2 years. So pitching 130 pitches was easy to forget. lol

The second time is when I learned that the coach really didn't care about pitch count. 

 

Armed with this knowledge I need to talk to the coach and ask him to enforce a pitch count for my son.  Either that or I can work out a signal for my son so he knows to claim to the coach that his arm is tired.  

 

Now throw in the fact that my son was the starting Varsity QB this year and now his arm health should be protected even more. 

In many cases, I think you are correct.  Parents are afraid to say anything.  I respect coaches and I say nothing up to the point where his health, well=being, and future are concerned.  My son made JV as an 8th grade student.  JV coach was a good guy, but was maybe 23 or 24 years old.  My kid threw about 140 pitches in one of his outings (typical JV defense) and he was erratic that day as well.  I walked into the Varsity Coach's office the next day after school and told him what had happened.  I didn't have to say another word.  Varsity coach took it from there and he never threw over 80 pitches in a single game the rest of the season.

 

As a parent, its a fine line and everyone hates parents who stick their noses in where they don't belong.  But when it comes to health and well being, I think its our responsibility.  I was lucky and got the right result without having to make a big deal out of it.

Discovered this sight when my RHP was 11.  Opened my eyes.  Been his sentinel ever since.

 

(knocks on wood)

 

 

So what I get from your post is that...

 

1.  Winning is more important than your son's health

2.  You're OK with turning your son into a liar instead of teaching him to stick up for himself and talk to adults

 

 

Come on dude your first point about him beating a great team is exactly what TPM is talking about.  What if he has pitches his team to that win and then next time out blows out his UCL? Was that win worth him having surgery and being set back at least one year?

That's precisely why we let son stay on JV until end of the season when he moved up. 

 

He probably could have beat every team he faced, but reality is at that age, there is more at stake than winning a game.

 

When son was a senior, at his first outing he threw 80 pitches.  It was uncalled for,even the scouts who came to see him were surprised. The next day Mr TPM was in the AD's office. It wasnt the pitch count, it was the time of year for the pitch count. The whole idea is building up your arm strength and I dont beleive that any freshman pitcher is fully ready for that challenge at 130 pitches. 

 

These are the things that I am talking about, if your son gets hurt you will look back and say, what should I have done different. You need to visit ASMI for pitcher guidelines.

 

Thanks Coach, I know that you get it, Happy New Year and stick around, missed you!

Wow.  I love you too. 

 

Yes, I'm living my life vicariously through my son at the expense of his health. 

 

Now relax, enjoy life, enjoy a quality beer on me. 

I'm very relaxed and enjoying life.  But I also know that pitching injuries are serious business and so is developing healthy pitchers.  There's no magical formula and even if you do everything by the book (whatever that book is) it can still go wrong.  Which begs the question - why take unnecessary chances?  

 

I'm not trying to be difficult or a jerk but re-read what you put.  You justified your 15 year old son pitching 130 pitches just to win a game.  You're going to develop a sign to have your son tell the coach he's too tired.  Which if he's not too tired then it's a lie.  The more productive thing is to have your son have a conversation with the coach.  If that doesn't work then you have the conversation.  If that doesn't work then go to the AD.  If that doesn't work then then you need to know everything you need to know about all the people at that school.  At this point you may need to remove your son from the team.  If it gets this far you've stuck by your convictions and taught your son about character instead of lying.  

 

Just saying

 

TPM Happy New Year to you and your family as well.  I would love to post more but I'm staying super busy doing the AD job.

First, I'm going to attack the premise. I haven't seen anything to make me think there are more arm injuries than in the past. There are certainly more surgeries and you certainly can now come onto the internet and LEARN about more injuries than you used to. Twenty years ago, we didn't take our kids to a surgeon if he injured his arm. Matter of fact, it's quite likely we didn't even take him to the doctor at all. Guys who suffered injuries simply either quit pitching or pitched in pain.

That's how it was when I was in high school. I remember a LOT of guys who "blew out their arm." They didn't become a statistic because TJ surgery wasn't an option.

You do hear about hs kids (or younger) throwing 120, 150, even 175 pitches in a game. However, it's news because it's rare these days. When I was younger, I guarantee you there were plenty of games in which I must have thrown over 150 pitches and I wasn't alone. We didn't count pitches, so who knows. I can also remember that the studs went day after day and many of them "blew out their arm" in high school or college. I believe we're doing a much better job. I think injury rates are probably far lower than twenty or thirty years ago. We should keep learning all we can and we should protect young arms, but all this talk of an "epidemic" sometimes makes me crazy.

I recently read the typical MLB starting pitcher threw 140-150 pitches per start in the 70s. It was also normal for a good pitcher to complete 25+ games per year. To be called a "seven inning pitcher" was a criticism. Now it's a consistent pitcher with a strong arm.

 

..............

 

On July 2, 1963, Juan Marichal pitched a 16-inning shutout against the Milwaukee Braves, outdueling Warren Spahn, who pitched 151/3 scoreless innings before Willie Mays won it 1-0 with a home run. Marichal threw 227 pitches; Spahn threw 201.

 

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_...uel-was-50-years-ago

Not sure you got the point of my post.
This is for all of you whose sons wish to play beyond HS.
Injuries take you out of the game.  If you havent established yourself either in college or professionally and a major injury occurs, chances are you never will reach it.  The majority of players don't get very far that get hurt, because these days things move very quickly and as I said you fall behind. It doesnt apply if you are a top round pick or if you have been lucky to make it past AAA, those are the exceptions.

 

This is about using common sense .  I dont expect that anyone living in a state where there is snow on the ground to understand its differentt for those where they play bb year round.

 

As far as sports injuries not as prevelant or serious please give statistics to show otherwise.

i would be curious to know how long a pitchers career lasted in those days.

 

However the problem with no pitch count is throwing until fatigue.  At this point, IMO, this is too late. 

 

I think there is a reason why MLB pitchers today average about 100 PC  before being pulled. 

I don't think you are relaxed.  You sound very uptight. 

 

And if you are not trying to be a jerk you must be a natural. 

 

I added humor to a situation that I found alarming.  Thus the "lol".  That means "laugh out loud".  You can sue me for getting caught up in the moment of a game.  

 

Concerning the sign, absolutely would I implement this sign IF after talking to the coach he ignored my sons' health.  It's not like he is stealing crab legs from supermarkets or raping girls on campus. 

 

If that doesn't work then I would talk with the Athletic Director who is the head football coach and tell him that if he wants his starting QB to return next season then he (AD) needs to talk with the baseball coach. Football is King in Texas! 

 

Concerning his arm health I believe I should be the one approaching the coach. 

 

 

 

 

If you really think a 16-18 year old, competitive male, with more testosterone flowing through his body is going to tell a coach he's "sore" or "wants to come out of a game" - you've got to be kidding yourself.  While it's your business as a parent to protect your child, going to the coach at HS is tricky. Some coaches will listen others will blow you off and don't want to talk to parents. It's the athlete that needs to have the first level of communication - it's your job to help him with how to handle that discussion.

 

I think coaches should ask the umpire ;-) - trust me I can tell you when your child has "lost it" or "had enough", but coaches don't pick up on those signs when it's a 2-1 game in the top of the 6th with 1 out... They're thinking 5 more outs that's less than then 16 he's already got. Velo is down, location is sporadic, but they've got their eye on the prize - beside the other guy's in the same boat and "we'll get to him too". All to quickly it's a 5-2 game and now your team is pressing and trying to do too much. There's never been a 3-run HR with no one on base, but the batters sure swing like they can be the first one, but end up dribbling one to the 2B or popping out to 1B. All the while, the bullpen is rested and could have easily got those 5 outs.

 

While pitch counts are important, I also am of the opinion that there's a mix of pitch count and mechanics that need to be accounted for; however, all too often a coach doesn't want to mess with mechanics because a pitcher throws strikes (somehow) with whatever herky, jerky motion he has. That motion is just not natural and eventually will cause some sort of injury. Imagine being 20 years old and not being able to pick up anything without searing pain shooting through your shoulder... By that time perhaps the HS coach has won his 3rd straight championship banner off the shoulder of the next guy who won't be able to pick up anything.

 

BTW: TPM while there is snow on our ground 3-5 months out of the year - the indoor pitching instruction business still does well, so many kids are still throwing 12 months out of the year.  When we were going through the recruiting process we felt we had to continue with lessons and stuff to be ready for indoor showcases in Jan/Feb even though last game pitch thrown is in late Oct early Nov.  Then we were 5-6 weeks away from tryouts - so it's a vicious cycle.

Most didnt last as long as many think, and for the ones that lasted, they did stuff that is not allowed these days. Reality is that most pitchers average time in ML is 4 years, for the few hundred that do make it hundreds did not. The difference was the injury factor.

One of my sons pitching coaches (2 seasons in pro ball) was Dennis Martinez, a recovering alcoholic always stressed with the pitchers how important it was to come clean if you had issues. There is only so much anti inflammatory meds  a person can take before their stomach blows up.

FWIW, I know of a few guys who actually became drug dependent due to arm issues, actually recovering drug addicts.  They chose to take strong pain relieving  drugs because they knew that any major injury would put them way behind.  

JohnF,

You hit on another point. Why stress your son's arm out as a preteen when you know for a fact in HS he will put in more time than he should because of showcases and tournaments to be seen by college coaches,scouts etc.

 

Parents with young players eager for them to play as much as they can do not realize all that will be required from them in HS.

 

A very good friend of mine who was once sons travel coach in middle school played for UM. He really helped me to understand that it wasn't really important to play during certain periods of a young ball players life, especially when one showed tools that would get him a scholarship in HS or maybe even drafted.

 

If some can understand what I am sayin' that's good, if not, I know that I tried.

I wonder why this wasn’t posted in either the Pitching & Throwing, Statistics & Scorekeeping or Injuries and Recovering forums.

Take a guess stat man!

My 2017 was called up to varsity mid-season last year to provide a couple of starts due to games being clustered due to bad weather in the northeast.  The coach (an "old-school" guy who has since departed) use our #1 starter so much, that he ended up with Tommy John during the summer.  Our new coach is younger, and pitched in college during the time when pitch counts started to set in, so I am thankful for that.

 

My son also played for a guy who pitched recently as high as AAA, and he shows the boys things like running right after the game to get the blood pumping (and I am a fan of having him take Alleve after he pitches to decrease the swelling.

 

I am not so worried about pitch counts as I am good mechanics, him taking care of his body (like running after/during game when he has pitched), and giving him meds proactively to reduce swelling.  Knock on wood, it has worked, and he is hopefully in line to start for the varsity squad.

 

The last thing I was say is that up in the northeast, we have the benefit of shorter seasons.  I hear too many stories of Tommy John surgeries in other parts of the country.  Not much of that up here, at least in my circle.

JohnF, your point about asking the umpire brought back a really disturbing memory for me. Back when my eyesite was fairly good i used to umpire a little bit. It was during a semi final game in the old Khoury league distric games, i think it was a 13u maybe. I was behind the plate and this kid on the mound was throwing pretty good. Well after the 4th you could tell something was wrong. Arm was hanging, velocity fell, his body language told the story. I kept telling the catcher, called time and walked over to the dugout but nobody wanted to listen. This young kid was the "ace" i was told and that was that. Who is an "Ace" at 13? well it got so bad they had to take the kid out and it really looked like the coaches were upset with the kid. For his age group the kid had potential, real potential but I never heard of him again. I always wonder about that young man. What could have been if his "coaches" knew what they were doing.

Parents have simply lost their minds. When it comes to athletics, parents have simply lost their minds. Not just baseball. Every sport. I get to see it every single day in my career. It's in a bunch of different sports and these kids are playing several hours a day. Coaches are often thrown under the bus for "player abuse" but quite frankly it's not the coaches. It's the parents. This board has provided plenty of evidence of it as well. Any time that an article is posted from Dr. Andrews, parents are quick to talk about how unimportant his comments are. I have parents make excuses regularly about why an athlete is having "concussion-like" symptoms but they want to pretend the kid doesn't have a concussion. Sadly, there are plenty of healthcare providers who will agree with them. 

 

What constitutes a "qualified healthcare provider" when it comes to sports injuries? They don't necessarily have "MD" after their name....

Lionbaseball,

Unfortunately, with the emoticons, it's very difficult to translate how much humor or sarcasm is supposed to be reflected by your comments.  But the words are stated and I think interpreted as having at least some truth behind them.

 

Coach's words are dead on and he is not a jerk but someone who is trying to help you understand how best to guide and protect your son on this topic.  When you comment that you were caught up in the moment of the game, that is significant.  That is the crux of the problem and the primary reason pitch counts and rest guidelines are necessary.  Competitive coaches, players and parents are all susceptible to getting caught up in the moment of the game.  There needs to be guidelines in place to protect the player, especially when these moments arise. Those moments are going to arise again and again and again. And that's no joke

I agree with you about the parents, thats why constant reminding that young bodies can break down is important.

 

Parent education on all of this is really pretty important.

 

All for pitch counts but unfortunately they are very narrow mind and leave to much to interpretation. I think the most critical and often left out interpretation of pitch counts is how they are reached. I feel those, including Andrews, who produce these pitch counts are missing that critical issue and often imply a "one size fits all" mentality. Yes I know they are just guidelines, but then you are leaving the interpretation up to those we've already established are often to dumb to follow them be it parents or coaches.  Simply saying 70 or 80 or 90 pitches is grossly inadequate.  How the pitcher reaches that total is far more critical. I'll simply say this, a pitcher who throws 85 or 90 pitches over 6 innings, never had an inning over 20 and team's had multiple innings scoring runs and having quality at bats is at less of a risk than a pitcher who throws 75 pitches in 3 innings and team's failed to produce a base runner. But by their matrix, 75 is better than 90. I really think someone needs to come up with a guideline of pluses and minuses based on number of pitches per inning and rest time between innings.

AGDAD19, that approach is fine in theory.  The problem is, at this point, you can't even get someone to follow the simple guidelines of a straight pitch count.  Look at lionsdad for example.  His sophomore son threw 130 pitches in a game and he doesn't seem to think it's a big deal.  In an earlier post, he said his son threw 125 pitches and 140 pitches in two separate games.  I'm taking that to mean that he has thrown over 120 pitches in a game 3 times by his sophomore year.  Actually, since he is a 2017, this must have happened during his freshman year.  I think by any standards, that TOO many pitches.  There is no way this dad and this coach are going to follow a more complicated formula for figuring out pitch count.

 

The most pitches my son has ever thrown is 119 and that was as a sophomore in college.  I think he has thrown over 100 three times.  Generally stays under 100.  I think he threw 105 in HS once, the others have been in college.  Let's get the word out about limiting pitches in a game and pitchers getting adequate rest at the youth level first, then we can start individualizing the formula.

 

JMO.

 

My dream would be for high school coaches to follow this rule of thumb:

 

1) 85 PC reached in inning is the last inning for the pitcher but pitcher can complete inning unless 105 PC is exceeded. . 

2) 20-30 PC in two consecutive innings before reaching 85 PC constitutes removal of pitcher.

3) More than 30 PC in any one inning constitutes removal of pitcher. 

 

I would like to see more stringent guidelines adopted by UIL for pitchers that would be mandated. 

 

There is no reason for parents or kids to have to be the "bad guy". 

 

ASMI makes recommendations, have you ever looked at it? Then you would know that there are recommendations for rest between games.

 

It is up to parents IMO, to make sure that the coaches their pitchers play for are familiar with it as well. Not all coaches are proficient in managing pitchers, heck even some ML managers have trouble with it.

 

Of course common sense rules and it is not one size fits all.  If someone interprets it that way, well I don't think they did their homework. The WWW is a huge place, anyone who can access google can at anytime ask it any question about pitching to educate themselves.

 

Let me ask a question, why do coaches remove young pitchers from the mound and put them in the SS or 3B position, the place where that player makes many throws?

 

Or why would young pitchers stop their season only to pick up a ball again in a few weeks for pitching lessons?  I don't get that, if you do please explain?

Unfortunately, high stress innings don’t receive nearly the same scrutiny as overall pitch counts.  Likewise, I believe cold weather and early season pitch totals should also be closely monitored.

For youth pitchers I agree. But why would a young pitcher be in that position to begin with, if he cant get threw an inning with the appropriate amount of acceptable pitches he should not be in it to begin with.

And yes, cold weather as well as early season pitch counts in games are important.  

80 for a first game isnt acceptable to me as a parent of a pitcher.

JMO

Would you recommend these guidelines be the same for a freshman at 14-15 and a senior at 17-18?

There has to be, IMO a physical/biological development consideration.  

What statistics are you using to back up your claims that they are on the rise? Are you honestly going to contend that an increase in surgery rates equals an increase in injury rates? That's like saying heart disease has increased dramatically over the past fifty years because heart transplants have increased. There's a logic problem in what you argues. An increase in surgeries only proves that there has been an increase in surgeries. It does not prove an increase in the injury rate - only an increase in one particular method used to treat injuries. Thirty years ago you almost never heard of TJ surgery on amateur pitchers. Is that because there were no ucl injuries in that group or because surgery wasn't a common method for treating those injuries.

 

As far as proof, though, at least at the MLB level, while TJ surgeries are slightly increasing, actual days spent by pitchers on the disables list due to arm injuries is slightly down.

 

Caution with young arms is a very positive, and fairly recent, development. I'm just saying that those screaming "epidemic" without considering the truth of the matter aren't helping things. Truth is, there has always been a problem and we do better now than ever in the history of the sport. Acting like this is a new problem is disingenuous.

Colorado is putting in pitch count rules this season and,in fact, they are lower for sub-varsity levels. Previous rules in Colorado were simply that you couldn't throw more than 12 innings in any three day span. 

Now that's what I am talking about!

Veteran ML starters are expected to throw over 200 innings a season, the expectations for rookies is lower, depending on whether they came from HS or college.

I still think they use the 30 inning Verducci rule?

I think, for the purpose of enforcement, the rules for pitch count should be kept as simple as possible.  I'm not saying my dream is the best but we have to start somewhere. 

Those of you who have sons in (or have been in) college baseball programs how receptive are college baseball coaches to players approaching them about implementing a pitch count?  

With players vying for starting positions on a large team, and thus vying for renewal of scholarships, how likely would a pitcher approach a coach about this? 

 

Or should that issue be resolved before signing a letter of intent? 

My opinion would be that this should be a consideration in the first place when choosing any program.

 

My son had two offers, recommended and chose the pitching coach (now the HC as well as PC at UF) because of his good track record working with pitchers.

 

Why would anyone go into a program without that information beforehand? I certainly not going to hook my pitcher up with a guy that doesnt follow some type of protocol.

 

Also, I want to know how good that PC is at knowing when a guy is ready to come out or just needs a trip to the mound. 

 

My personal favorite is when coaches switch pitcher and catcher (OK being really sarcastic here - just for levity)....

 

People who are anti pitch count invariably bring up baseball history, but conveniently leave out that the game and hitters have changed a lot since then. Were Spahn, Sain, Marichal, Ruth, Young, Mathewson, etc. all pitching since they were 8-9 years old?  Were they playing and pitching year round? Were they going into a travel league circuit to pitch games in front of college scouts who had their sundials to get their velo? Or did perhaps they actually grow into their bodies before seriously taking up pitching? (I'm too young to know - hahaha).

 

I get the whole pitch count argument and believe in it in general. It's a hard subject though because it is different based on development of a child as a pitcher. These are conversations you have to have regularly with your child. Before HS I think it's certainly the parents obligation to talk to whatever coach you have and determine their knowledge and acceptance of pitch counts. Also whether the coach has a love affair with the curve - yes a different rabbit hole we could jump into. Then make decisions whether you want to pay and play for that team. At HS - trust that your child will have taken all the conversations you've had and that he'll talk with the coach. If not, then there are ways to casually talk with the coach about his "pitching or pitcher" theories. Although I suspect most HS coaches come with a bit of history so you should know your answer beforehand. There are parents who decide not to have their child pitch for a specific HS and only go the showcase/travel ball option with a coach they do trust.

 

In the long run pitching isn't an inherently normal action for your shoulder as I think *any* parent has been told when they invariably take their child in for some sort of injury. Which all too often happens regardless of how you've protected your young pitchers with pitch counts, don't throw curves, eat your veggies, don't swim in the summer before the "big game", etc.

 

 

Someone posted this link to Div. 1 high pitch counts a while back.  I found it interesting and helpful when comparing programs. 

 

http://www.boydsworld.com/data/pitchcount.html

 

thats a good question Lion. My son is a freshman in college so I don't know specifically what his coaches believe about pitch counts. Maybe we should have had that discussion about pitch counts.

 

What we did discuss in length was philosophy and training. How each pitcher was put on a specific training based off his job on the team. I know of several of his teammates that were limited in fall because of how much they pitched last spring and summer. 2 were basically shut down all fall. These were returning players. According to my son, he was / is monitored closely on everything he is doing pitching wise (probably everway wise   ).

 

The converaation about a summer team has already been decided where he will go based off the philospohy that teams pitching coach has that is similar to his PC on college team and there is a threshold of if he pitches X inning, he will just work out next summer.

Hey thanks, I post that site periodically. Its a good resource.

 

However, my premise is that pitchers get hurt, even in ideal situations, but there are different times when getting hurt can hurt and when it wont as much.  

 

Once your son leaves your home you have no control over his destiny. I know that you all know that his workload will increase significantly when he goes to college or turns pro.  So control what you can, when you can, even if that means that he may not be playing as much as the kid next door, not attending as many showcases, sufficient off season rest, but at least when something does happen you don't have to think about what did you do wrong. 

 

JMO

 

 

DK did not pitch the summer after freshman year because of the amount of innings he put in (highest amount for a freshman).  That was a decision recommended by pcoach.

 

IMO the only time a pitcher should pitch summer league is if he needs the work or his draft year.

 

You are correct after a full summer most of the pitchers take time off fall. The good part of DK not pitching that first summer is that he got to work on improvements on pitches that sophomore fall.  Most of the top programs work this philosophy, but IMO every program should do the same.

 

Most frosh starters on staff begin as relievers, its their way of breaking into the game and build up their innings.

 

Enjoy!!!

That's interesting.  I put all the information in an Excel spreadsheet on my "wall" and added sorting. 

 

The highest Pitch Count per Inning (I added this column) was 28.8. over 4.2 innings pitched.  I think this pitcher should have been pulled after 2 innings. 

Aside from the fact not every high school pitcher has the luxury of a stellar or in some cases sound defense, even the best have innings where they struggle with their command.  In combination, it can take a heavy toll.

TPM, yeah that is what is coming down to supposedly, innings. He is slated at moment as 3rd starter.Tthey said he if he threw how they thought he could, he wouldn't be going to summer team but wanted him to have a slot in case he was moved to closer or other reliever position.

 

He is going to be in your neck of the woods in last weekend of February. his team is playing at UM

Problem is that the recruiting climate has changed. It's the rare pitcher that can expect to be recruited from only playing in the spring. Which (and not that I'm agreeing with it) might be ab argument for getting rid of high school ball and moving it all to clubs and then trying to limit the season to May - October.

Wow, some red flags for Texas Pan-Am and Northern Illinois.  Sam Street of Texas PA shows up first and again the next week.  He had 15 starts and 11 CG's, most with high counts.  And he had a fairly high K count so it's not like he is a control or deception guy. 

 

Anything over 120 shows up on an exception list for D1 college pitchers.  What does that tell you about 130 for a freshman in HS?

Those old-timers probably did start pitching young and may have pitched MORE than today's youth. However, I would caution against anyone using that to make the argument that the higher pitch counts actually BUILT durability (although I think there is a decent subargument or two that may have merit). I have a theory (and that's all it is since it wouldn't even be possible to find the data I would need to prove it). I think there are those who are genetically able to sustain heavy loads pitching-wise. They aren't as susceptible to arm injuries. In the past, before pitch counts were considered, I think those that were so genetically gifted, survived the gauntlet of youth ball and many got to the majors while many other pitchers "blew out their arms" and were left behind. Today, we pay a lot more attention to a pitchers workload and we baby (and I don't necessarily use the term in a bad way) young arms. So, a lot of hard throwers today make it as far as the pros before they start seeing problems. In the past, these same pitchers might have been done somewhere in their high school years and we'd never hear of them. I think we are seeing the first generation of pitchers who have been under pitch counts since they started. I think a modern focus on pitch counts has led to a lot of guys going farther in their careers.The result is a much deeper pool of hard-throwers.

I also wanted to comment on many posts slamming Lion. I just reread that post. In what part of does he ever indicate that he was "OK" with the high pitch counts put on his son? It's ridiculous that anyone would jump him for what I read as an expression of concern over it and for expressing a reality of life; that it can be a struggle for a parent (especially one with no experience) to make the decision to question the coach. Again, his post IN NO WAY indicated that he was ok with it.In order to have a good conversation on the subject, we need to encourage parents of pitchers and discuss ways to help them approach the problem instead of calling them idiots and attacking them.

Actually, Root, he did express that he was OK with it, at least to some degree, in explaining it away as a very big game, providing some background and expressing some pride in the accomplishment.  He was "caught up in the moment".  That is understandable and I think we've all been there. 

 

My perception is that Lion has a very talented young player and he is about to get pulled in a million different directions over the next few years.  I believe that Lion is a very knowledgeable guy with best interests at heart for his kid and is rightfully proud and excited about his son's skills and accomplishments.  I totally agree with you that it can be a struggle to make the decision to question the coach.  We see it often here that the excitement and visions of grandeur can somewhat cloud the path of decisions that even the most level-headed parents face regarding talented athlete sons and daughters.  When they are at a particularly high point, a gentle nudge or suggestion will rarely have an impact on their thought process.  Sometimes, a jolt is the only thing that will do so. 

 

Subsequent posts from Lion support that he has the right mindset regarding arm care and protection but I don't think the observations and comments from others were without merit and hope that he sees the helpful intent behind them from all three parties, myself included.

 

The other point Coach brought up was to question advising son to lie to or deceive the HC. He finished by emphasizing setting the right example to your child.  I certainly support that position as well.

I invite you to go back and reread his posts. The first expressed concern that his kid's coach was ignorant concerning pitch counts. The second mentioned that the first time was a big game, but that when he did it a second time it was a sign to him there was a problem. I'd like you to comment on whether Coach's response was deserved or helpful.

 

Additionally, I was a little disappointed. I've read literally hundreds of posts from Coach and this is the first time I found a post of his a problem.

 

I would guess Lion is not the only poster with this problem. There are plenty of parents that come here to share their experiences. Lion,for example knows there's a problem. But it's easy to tell a parent he needs to take up the issue (or have his kid do so) than it is to actually do so. What Lion needed was to be able to rely on the experiences of posters here in finding the solution - not a rebuke.

I'll give you the genetics argument - I think there's merit to that... but...

 

I have a hard time picturing the old-timer parents jumping into the family SUV to drive somewhere to play in some tournament miles from home... I think we're also talking about the time of trains/buses and not planes...  My mental picture is more playing pickup baseball locally in between working odd jobs, hanging out with friends, going to school, playing hookey, fishin', etc. I have a recollection of reading a book about an "old time" pitcher and his workout routine involving baling hay...

 

The point isn't whether they threw more or less it was how they did it and what else they did... They may have thrown more, but it's all in the effort required and the environment. Growing up they also didn't have to face anyone coming up with today's metal bat technology or today's hitters who spend countless hours in a batting cage with some iron mike tossing them BP.

 

I'd rather "baby" my child so that he can play catch with his baby some day just like I got the chance to do with my 3 babies. My youngest baby didn't start throwing harder until he started working out with a program designed to help pitchers get bigger, faster, stronger. That's something that pitchers of yesteryear didn't have.

I'm glad JP doesn't pitch.

 

Root, to back up Cabbage a little here, lion did make several comments that led me to believe he was OK with the pitch counts.  It has happened 3 times from what I can tell from his posts:

 

It was after these comments, with some minimizing about it, that coach responded with a fairly straight forward message.  The issue should have been addressed and stopped after the first outing.  If it happened again, more stringent measures should have been taken.  To have it happen a 3rd time is almost unexcusable as a HS freshman.  This situation is asking for trouble.  125, 130 and 140 pitch games as a freshman in HS is not good.

 

To your point that subsequent comments have been made by lion to show that he is knowledgeable about this issue, you are correct.  However, knowing it and doing something about it are two different things.  Speak to the coach.  Let him know your concerns.  If he doesn't like it, it may be time to pull your kid from the team.  No matter how talented he is, he will never make it to college if his arm is blown out.

 

I remember in HS, my son pitched against a kid that threw 140 pitches in 8 innings against my son.  There was a pro scout there to see him as well.  We all thought that was CRAZY - and he was a senior.  Kid didn't go pro, went to a mid-low level D1 and has done OK, but has had some arm problems.  

 

Don't just know about the problem, take action.

 

Root,

We all come from different climates, I would expect anyone reading would take that into consideration.  Where I am from bb is played all year long, always was and will always be.  There is a lot to consider if your son is a young pitcher (mine began at 8).

 

By the way, this is not the first time I have gotten up on my soapbox. I have been here for a very long time and have seen many many post regarding injuries, in fact they made a forum for it.  

The pitchers having TJS are from my sons era in proball (2007 until now).  They also threw pretty hard, and some have had shoulder issues as well.  Conditioning has gotten better and ASMI has helped with better guidelines, but injuries still occur.

Maybe you havent read or understood what I have said.  I keep stating keep things to a minimum for YOUTH pitchers because as they get older so will the pitch counts.

I also took Lions post the same as others did.  I especially didn't understand why he would have his son give signs to him when he wants out when all he has to do is tell the coach he is done.

Regardless, he is asking a lot of good questions and hope that he is learning from this topic.

That's what we are here for.

Root, I totally get your point.  And I did go back and re-re-read.  He did lead off with the concerns as you state.

 

I shouldn't speak for Coach but I suspect he is seeing some of what I am with Lion's posts... around some great info and questions are some comments that perhaps suggest he could still benefit from that jolt to his thought process...

 

Here is another example (one of his posts)...

"Concerning the sign, absolutely would I implement this sign IF after talking to the coach he ignored my sons' health.  It's not like he is stealing crab legs from supermarkets or raping girls on campus. 

 

If that doesn't work then I would talk with the Athletic Director who is the head football coach and tell him that if he wants his starting QB to return next season then he (AD) needs to talk with the baseball coach. Football is King in Texas! "

 

Now, one of the things that grabbed my attention with this - he talks about going to the AD regarding the problem, which is great.  But he puts more emphasis on the AD also being the football coach and how he needs to address the problem if he wants his star qb back.  Well, thought #1 should be that the AD will address the issue because it is the responsible thing for him to do in the position of AD. (I didn't comment on this initially because I didn't want to "pile on").   I'm pretty sure that one didn't sit well with Coach who is an AD and is/was also a football coach.  And I don't even know what to make of the "raping girls on campus" analogy (yes, I get the reference).  I know this is, perhaps, reading too much into things and again, there is the emoticon.  But when looked at cumulatively, I do see concerns.  Now, he could be totally yanking chain and I'm way off base but... 

 

I missed that comment about the "crab legs, and raping girls" and this style seems kind of familiar, not just to me, I'll bet.

 

Whether you want to think of baseball as a "May to September" sport or not... it's started. Today was officially the first day of practice around here... Our baseball teams practiced (in shifts) for about 5 hours today on the field..

I like the way a few posters are speaking about me in the 3rd person and then interpreting what I stated. 

 

Yes, my son threw too many pitches in the 2 games I mentioned. . 

 

Yes, I believe that is wrong. 

 

Yes, I need to talk to the coach (who is not the A.D.).

 

 

Appreciate everything Cabbage has said and Root I'm glad you have got something out of my posts and hope that one doesn't offset that.  That being said here's where I'm coming from - everyone who posts on here speaks from the experiences they go through.  That molds and shapes what we think and believe - even how we post on here.  When it comes to the people on here - we don't know anybody and just have a glimpse as to who they are based on how they post.  So its hard to get how someone feels or what they truly mean sometimes when you mix it with tone and meaning being difficult to understand from the written word.

 

So was I being critical?  Yes I was but I was also trying to be helpful because I was calling out what I thought was wrong.  As for the first one I think Cabbage has nailed it because it happened 3 times his freshman year and he justified it.  Yeah I get getting caught up in the game and the emotion from that.  Sadly I let a sophomore go 130 pitches trying to get the win early in my career.  That was the last time that ever happened once I had a chance to think about how wrong it was.  I guess you could say I lost games after that because once I felt they reached the magic number I pulled them.  It is what it is and I'll do that again when I become a head coach again.  If it happens and you learn from it that's the best of a bad situation.  I don't know Lion and he's made some good posts after that.  That's great but at the end of the day it's on him if he allows his son to be used this way - not us regardless of what we post.

 

As for the second one and the signal that's the one that ticked me off more than anything.  That's just deceitful, underhanded and sends the wrong message.  There are many ways to handle this situation than becoming a liar and that's what it is.  When he was going to go to the AD / football coach I would hope that guy would handle it correctly in doing what's best for his kid and health - not to protect his team. While at the end of the day it's the same result it can destroy that schools dynamic among it the coaches at that school.  When you serve many roles like an AD and head coach for a sport it can get sticky.  That's one of the reasons (along with some health issues) why I gave up coaching while I truly learn how to be a good AD.  But I'm still seen as a football coach looking out for football by some of our sports.  The one thing I tell parents when they come to me and complain I ask them if they have spoken to the coach first and the majority of them haven't.  

 

To effect change in behavior you have to start with that person.  If Lion wanted the coach to change behavior in how he handles his son's pitch count then he should do that by discussing it with him instead of going around his back.  By doing this then possibly it could help all the pitchers because it will open the coaches eyes - or maybe not.  But if you don't try and go with the secret signal you go from helping solve a problem to creating a bigger problem.

 

Was I trying to be a jerk - no I wasn't but I tend to approach problems and issues head on.  I'm also someone who doesn't like confrontation but it's also the best way to handle issues so I go at them.  I can't stand it when people go behind anybody's back to try and get something.  Just wrong.

Thanks roothog66, 

It seems like you get it and coach2709 doesn't.  

What's great about forums is that if someone can't be encouraging then there is always the "Block" function.  

 

That's certainly your prerogative. Too bad you'll miss plenty of good information.

       
       


I've been TPM'd. 

Obviously I was at least competent enough with WWW to find this Web site. I'm also fairly well versed in ASMI's and Dr. Andrews pitch counts and days between rest.  With the exception of age adjustments, they are pretty much a one size fits all(age dependant) recommendation. Obviously the time off between mound appearances is a critical part of the equation. But I think you will see this refined with research to an hours/pitch recommendation (ie. 24 pitches, 24 hours rest,  72-72, 98-98...).

Obviously reading comprehension when browsing the WWW is an important attribute as well.  If you'll reread my post, I wasn't talking about rest between mound appearances but the time between innings during a game that a pitcher had to recover and it's effect on fatigue based on the number of pitches thrown the previous inning. This, and how many pitches were thrown per inning, has a direct effect on the damage all pitchers experience during an outing. Simple pitch counts can't account for this.

Definitely not trying to get into a pissing match with you. I respect the journey you've traveled and experience you've gained through the years. I think you miss understood my post and assumed I may not have traveled or am traveling the same journey. I am by no means an expert but I am well versed.

Lol. I guess maybe I did TPM you. 
Ok I understand  I may have misunderstood you. 
My point its obly a guideline and anyone can  access the internet for more info (comment not directed to you in particular).
As far as the pitch counts vs hours a reliever may have done 30 warm up pitches just waiting to go into the game.
So would you combine them?  I think that running out night after night might be harmful.
Thats where the common sense comes in.

It's really unfortunate that so many threads here devolve to bickering.

 

Having been in the middle of a few forum battles myself early on, I know what it feels like from both sides, and have concluded that it's just not necessary.

 

And it really stinks when it leads to a dad like Lion (who seems sincere and open ) threatening to block someone like coach2709 (who so many of us respect and have learned a lot from).

 

But with the caveat that I won't engage further, I think it's worth noting that the harshness that's so prevalent here wouldn't happen in person.

 

For example: Coach, as informed and passionate as you are about kids' health, I can't imagine you saying to someone, "So what I hear you saying is: 'You're OK with turning your son into a liar.'"

 

My guess is, as an accomplished AD, you'd find a different way of saying that.

 

I hope so, anyway.

       
       


When it comes to common sense, I think you and I have both discovered that that is unfortunately lacking in many of these situations.
As far as the pitch counts go, I'm of the understanding that they are only tallying the pitches thrown in a competitive setting, ie. to a live batter. I think warm ups, throws to first etc. are factored in as given so only the competitive pitches are counted. I think they assume a certain number of these throws are part of the preparation and not as stressful on the arm. That can be debatable.
I'll share a related story on this exactly common sense, pitch count. During the 5th round of the playoffs my son's freshman year, he pitched a Saturday game 3 and was pulled after the 5th inning. Pitch count his freshman year was never an issue because the coach taught psychology and was certain a 14 year old freshman couldn't handle the mental stress of varsity. Now his talent had him there but the coach always had a quick hook at the first sign of adversity. That probably saved the inevitable discussion of pitch counts for his mom and me. Back to the game.... we were leading 5-0 after 5 and he had thrown 72 pitches. Probably a good point to pull him but it wasn't due to pitch count, I think that's as far as he'd trust the freshman and chose to bring in senior. Besides his post game arm care, his usual protocol was to throw lightly the next day, do band work and get a running program in. Plus 2 days was a long toss day and so on. So Sunday he did his usual and Monday he was to long toss. I told him if he didn't get to during practice, call me and I'd come up after practice to long toss with him. Inevitable I get the call he didn't during practice, his head coach has a terrible protocol for his pitchers, so I met him at the high school to throw with him.  I forgot the ball bucket so we had to ask the coach if we could borrow a ball bucket. He asked my son what we were doing and when son informed him he was going to long toss, he said "aren't you sore, you should be sore." Now whether it's his post pitching routine or luck , my son rarely if ever gets sore. When he informed the coach of this, the coach said, "if I'd had known that, I would have had you throw in the intrasquad today." At this point I knew he didn't understand the difference in stress of long toss, a bullpen or throwing to live batters. Lesson learned for both. When the high school pitching coach heard this, he put his head down and walked away.

From my exp. the parents are as much to blame if not more than the coaches.  As many of you know I have a 2013, 2014,2016, 2018...  I have been around parents from 2009 to likely 2018... and this is just the high school parents. 

 

Excluding coaches and AD's I would venture to say I have met more parents than most.  Parents feel that if their son comes out of the game then they are losing out on a chance to be seen or win etc... I know now that RC do not care... they are looking at so many more things than how many innings the player pitched...  they are not interested in the game as much as those involved. They can see want they want to see in an inning or two. 

 

It is the parents responsibility to protect the health of the player.  I have told all my sons that if you do not feel "healthy" and ready to go out of the bullpen then you do not pitch.  If you feel during the game that you are fatigued out and need to come out, call for a mound visit.  Of go over your pitch counts with the PC between innings. 

 

As far as the coaches are concerned, most know when the player is "losing" his stuff.  For my sons, when they start losing their off speed control I can tell it will not be long.  I wonder if the stories I hear about kids throwing 100+ pitches are pitchers from smaller schools with limited roster size?  We generally carry enough pitchers so no one gets worn out.

 

2018 has been told he will get varisty innings this season. He is crusing 85 and hitting 87  I have already had a "hey what are you planning for 2018 this season" talk with the HC... Now this might be easier for me having had three others come through the program.. Some might think that I should not talk to the HC about his plans, but he's my son, he gets one shot, and he is very talented. If I felt the HC did not have my sons best interest at heart we would play elsewhere.

 

Here is the plan our HC uses.

 

Nov-Dec  workouts, throwing long, plenty of rest, no pitching.

Jan. pitching starts, fastballs only, working on mechanics, 20-30 pitch bullpens depending on age

Feb. Sr and Jr throwing two 40 pitch bullpens a week, fastball and changes only.... So and Fr 1-2 bullpens a week throwing 30-40 pitches

March.  Scrimmages everyone throws 2 innings.....

March games ( tourney games and non-conference)  upper class 50-60 pitches.... underclass 40-50 pitches.  starting to bring in curve and slider for varsity, under class no sliders.

April games ( conference mostly)  upper classes throwing 75-90   Once at 85 they are getting you out. underclass still at 50-60

May ( sectionals , state finals)  game by game...

 

Now since 2018 is under class but throwing varsity his pitch counts are still based on his age.

 

I am fine with HC's approach and of course once in a while they go over a pitch or two but 90% of the time this is what happens.    We did have a few sr's that have gone 100 in some games when there was no 35 pitch innning in there and it was state tourney.  Many times early in the season, in lopsides games, HC will pull starters and let second tier pitchers get some innings.

 

I might add except for the state tourney, pitchers varsity or jv only start one game every 5 days.

 

Lastly,  the school has won 13 district titles, 8 sectionals, state tourney appearences 5 times , all this in last 13 years.

 

I think you are correct about the smaller schools.  Last year we had 4 pitchers, including my son, that could keep the games close.  This year we are down to 2 pitchers with 4 others that can throw strikes but will need more defense to keep glames close.

 

So are there other high schools nearby where you could bring your son if you felt your son's pitching health was in danger?  And would your son have to wait a year because of UIL rules to get back on varsity at another school?

 

I will post an update after I have a "what are you planning for my son this season" talk with the HC.

 

 

 

Honestly, I probably wouldn't.  Telling a kid to circumvent the coach without addressing the issue with the coach first is a terrible idea.  I'm pretty upfront and plain with the parents.  When you try and be nice in how you say things parents tend to not hear it because it's not what they want to hear.

 

For example playing time - how many coaches (or anyone) would say something like "well we appreciate your concerns with your son not playing as much as you would like.  He needs to work on ______ in practice to get better so he can earn more playing time.  We need to put our best 9, 5, 11 (whatever sport) on the field and it's the coaches job to figure this out"?  This at the end of the day is pretty condescending even it's not meant to be.  It's meant to be a nice way of saying your son / daughter is not good enough now go away.  But they don't go away usually.  They tend to get more mad and things blow up more.

 

Here's what I've discovered - when you ask them who should sit so their son can play it gives them a shock of reality because they usually hadn't thought that far ahead.  They want more playing time but haven't thought about who should sit in their place.  They don't want to name names or pick out someone.  

 

Now if they actually do name a kid then I ask them what do we do when another kid on the bench asking for more playing time and they say they want their son to sit.  Then I explain the precedent has been set by their kid going into the lineup - if you want to play then you complain.  But now everyone is fair game to sit for someone else to play.  Where does it stop now that it's become a trainwreck?  They usually see why it can't work then and drop it.

 

I'm probably not explaining it very well but it does work most of the time.  There are still those parents who just want to see the world burn.  If it comes to this I tell them I've tried to explain why this is a bad thing and it's still the coaches decision.  Meeting over.

 

I always tell them they can expect honesty from me - not leaving the meeting happy.  Maybe they will leave happy but I won't guarantee it.

I never addressed that particular part of Lion's post. My problem with doing something like that is that 1) you may give the coach an idea that there's an arm problem that doesn't exist, costing your kid time on the mound and 2) if the coach catches on, hold onto your hat. I know I would not appreciate it at all. Having said that, I think he was mainly thinking out loud about possible solutions. Unfortunately, avoiding any confrontation at all will hurt far more than it helps.

 

I'd also recomed, Lion, that if you've blocked coach maybe you'll read this. Even if he rubbed you the wrong way with the one response, there are few posters on here in the position to give it to you straight concerning your relationship with your kid's high school coach.

http://www.wikihow.com/Accept-Criticism

 

Let me also say that I did not approach the coach. He told 2018 that he wanted to talk to me and that lead to me asking him about his plans for him.   Also, I never talked about how much, where or when in regards to playing time etc.... We did talk about going back and forth from jv to varsity and how he sees that working...Again its my 4th son with this coach. 

 

To answer your question about being able to attend other schools if I did not feel comfortable with the HC , it would be very easy to move schools and not sit out.  If you have not been rostered on a varsity roster you can move anywhere in the county. our county has open enrollement... if you are rostered on a varsity roster, then you need to cahnge classification levels, or move one zone over from where you are curently zoned.  Not to mention the private schools that allow scholarships.  We live he a decent Metro area, plenty of schools. While needing to move is not the case here, I would not hesitate to do so to protect the health and well being of my child. For baseball reasons, academic reasons, bullying whatever the case might be. I find this no different the parent who moves their kid from public to private school.  This would be a family decision and is none of the schools districts business.

 

I would also mention that 'PLAYING TIME' and "PARENTS GETTING THEIR WAY"  is not the same as having a players "BEST INTEREST AT HEART"  

 

I cannot remember one of my sons playing for a coach that threw him too much.  One game in the state semi's , 2014 threw 110... and that's the worst of it...

 

Only a idiot would throw a middle school / high school pitcher too much... If fact I can only remember seeing abuse maybe 1-2 times in 500+ games. I really do not think if happens to often... NOW pitching without rest in between is likely to happen more often.

 

 

Originally Posted by AGDAD19:

…I really think someone needs to come up with a guideline of pluses and minuses based on number of pitches per inning and rest time between innings.

 

If you think it’s such an easy thing to do, why don’t you do it? I’ll go out on a limb and say you probably could do a pretty fair job of it, but how long would the list be? If it takes more than a glance to come up with an answer, who’s gonna use it?

I agree with you statement above about best interest at heart.  

I'm looking through my notes that I kept on pitch count for almost every game for all pitchers for both sides. I'll list date for any game where a pitcher went over a 100 p.c.

 

2/27 - PC (us) - 102 

3/11 - PC (us) - 103 

3/19 - PC (them) - 136

3/25 - PC (us) - 120 - my son- (third inning he threw 43 pitches)

3/29 - PC (us) - 119, PC (them) - 119

4/1 -  PC (them) - 107

4/8 - PC (us) - 120 - my son, (them) - 127 - total 8 innings for both pitchers

4/18 - PC (us) - 109

4/26 - PC (us) - 115

5/1 - PC (us) - 100

5/16 - PC (them) - 117

 

In American Legion that summer I don't recall but one time where a pitcher went over 100 pitches. 

 

 

       
       


OK stats, I'll give it a crack.
Son's pitch count is 95. That pitch count can only be exceeded to complete a batter that he started at less than 92. If he completes a batter at 92 to 94 he's done. That minus 4 to start a batter always applies to the adjusted pitch count.

Pitch deductions:
Pitches per inning
  21-25 minus 5
  26-30 minus 10
  > 30   minus 15
  2 consecutive inn > 17 minus 5
Rest btw innings
  < 7 min.  minus 5
  < 9 min.  minus 3

Pitch additions:
Pitches per inning
  < 9    plus 3
  2 consecutive innings < 13 plus 5
Rest btw innings
  > 13 min plus 5
  2 consecutive inn > 10 min plus 3

An average high school 7 inning game is between 110-130 minutes long or roughly 16-18 minutes per inning or 8 to 9 minutes per half inning. If you don't want to use a watch or stopwatch to keep track of rest times,  you can use the oppositions pitch count to determine the adds and subtractions.

Pitch deductions:
Pitches per inning
  21-25 minus 5
  26-30 minus 10
  > 30   minus 15
  2 consecutive inn > 17 minus 5
Rest btw innings based on opposition's pitch count
  < 10  minus 5
  < 15  minus 3

Pitch additions:
Pitches per inning
  < 9    plus 3
  2 consecutive innings < 13 plus 5
Rest btw innings based on opposition's pitch count
  > 21 min plus 5
  2 consecutive inn > 17 plus 3

So there's my basic guidelines. Go ahead and Statify me. I'm sure those such as ASMI or Andrews' group could come up with a guideline that would be understandable based on the research they've done. You may think this would be to complicated but it's a complex issue that should be addressed. If we are truly interested in protecting our pitchers arms, it shouldn't be written off and ignored. Maybe we need to find more intelligent people to be in charge.

Good stuff here. Just wanna add that at the high school level, Dialog with the HC about pitch count limits and shut down periods must always come from the parents. NEVER the player.This may be stating the obvious to some more experienced parents, but I didn't know this until a nationally recognized pitching coach at a local university here in Los Angeles told me. He said " You have to be the dick head here...not the player. The perception of the player always needs to be that he wants to throw.Keep a clicker and after the set amount pitches get close. Get a coaches attention and hold up 1 or 2 fingers to signal last batters"

I haven't yet had to be that demonstrative at a game, but I will if need be. HS HC is pretty arm health minded but I do initiate shut downs and I click the games and will not hesitate to shut him down or give notice to the coaching staff if need be

 

I'll take a stab.  This is for HS with the thought that a coaching staff can reasonably keep track during the course of a game/week...

 

14-15 y.o. - 1st month of season max = 75, thereafter max = 84.  No new hitter when max is reached.  30+ pitch inning = -5

 

16 y.o. + - 1st month max = 85, thereafter max = 94.  30+ pitch inning = -5.

 

1-30 pitches = 2 day rest

31-50 = 3 day rest

51-70 = 4 day rest

71+ = 5 day rest

 

This would protect as well as ensure that pitching depth is developed. 

I agree fully that young arms need to be protected - I agree even more that what you have proposed is way to complicated and in IMO over the top. I don't think it has anything do with how intelligent a coach is...there is certainly plenty of room to find a middle ground between overuse and the proposal you have made.

 

K.I.S.S.

And what else should the parents do - tell the coach what kind of pitches their child can throw? and to whom? an when? When does the child actually start taking responsibility for himself? How long does a parent meddle? or be a "helicopter parent"? If the child doesn't learn how to assert himself now, then when does he get to that point?

 

I know more coaches around here that would respect the conversation and dialogue coming from the player than the parent(s). Now if player says he talked to coach and coach still ignores him, then yes, it's time for a parent to step in and I'd take the player along so neither can claim the other never said anything. If your player didn't have the conversation yet, it'll be very obvious.

 

I cannot believe *any* coach is looking at a parent waiting for the "1 or 2 fingers to signal last batters" sign. Your nationally recognized pitching coach thinks its better for a parent to be another coach - guess I'm glad my child doesn't play for him. That says to me he sees the player as an arm to use and not an individual. A player that can come in every inning, find out where he's at pitch count wise, and think about how to approach the next 3 batters based on PC, spot in order, what they've done previously, etc. - that says to me I have a pitcher that's thinking not only about this game, but long term as well. Coach - I'm at 85, I have the bottom of the order coming up, I'm good to to one more is far better than a mound visit after some parents' 1 or 2 more batters signal that hasn't given the reliever enough time to warm up and grief from some other parent because their child was put into the game without being ready.

I just hope that in the near future rules will be set in place for pitch count so parents don't have to be the bad guy.  

 

It's hard to enjoy a game when your son is pitching and you are worried about pitch count. 

 

What strategy would you employ to shut your son down in case a HC ignores your signals? 

I'm going to be honest with you and say that would be pretty hard to follow in the heat of the game.  You did some good work in putting that together but it's still a little too much.  Probably good starting point but still needs to be simplified more.

 

First let me say that pre-season I'm more than happy to sit down with parent and discuss limitations on a freshman or sophomore.  I have no problem coming up with a plan for that kid to protect his arm - even if he throws 70 MPH and doesn't project well.

 

Second I have no problem meeting after practice or on an off day to revise the plan due to whatever reasons.  But never talk to me after a close loss because I'll be ticked off and won't have an open mind.  I'm still a human being no matter how much I try to work with you and have an open mind.

 

Third there's no way in the world will I ever look for a sign from a parent in the stands as to when to pull their kid.  You better learn to trust my system to protect pitchers or learn to trust that I'll follow the plan we develop.  But you won't tell me when to pull any kid even your own.  If you can't handle that then we need to go separate ways.

 

Fourth I still would rather have this discussion with the kid to help him learn to grow into becoming responsible adult.  I'm not going to rip into him or make him look stupid.  I'm going to do what I can to help him because that's my job.  I will try to bring the conversation out of him even if he doesn't know what to say.  My jmb is to help your kid and work with him but end of the day he's going to do what I say or we need to go our separate ways.  Nothing wrong with that.

 

The problem is not all coaches think the way I do (of course I'm assuming what I do is good for the player) and can be jerks, uninformed, clueless - whatever.  Now this becomes a huge challenge for the player and the parent.  I'm not sure what the answer truly is to be honest.  But I think parents mess up not trying to find out ahead of time if the coach is open and willing to work with you or if they are a jerk.  Unless you know the best way to approach the coach is assuming he gets it and has a clue then let him prove you wrong.  By doing this and the coach does have a clue then you got smooth sailing.  If you don't and he does have a clue you've already created a harsh environment for no reason.

Coaches looking into the stands for a parent to tell them when their player is done is ridiculous.  I have had pre-season dicussuions with the HC about pitching limitations for the up coming season for 2018....( freshman)   2018 would not come out of the game until his arm fell off.  When I talked to the coach, I did not demand anything from him.  I did not give him any hard numbers.  I asked him what he though was a good plan for 2018 given that he throws very hard for his age.  And barring injury should have a nice HS and college career.  Keep in mind this HC has sent many many pitchers to SEC schools , minors and majors...

 

He said that they usually have an idea about where "EACH" pitcher is going to be as far as pitch count, innings and how often they should pitch.  Also if he will be a starter or a relief guy.. He went on to say that due to 2018's age, style and body type his number would be lower than usual.  He also said that early on he will get innings in tourney games and would try to get him in to relieve in tight spots to see what happens. Then decide where he can help the team going forward.   I also talke to him about the issue of pitching varsity and playing JV and how that would work.  He said that when the varsity does not need 2018 he can play with JV and will pitch JV if he needs the work.  But they would tell him well in advance which direction he would be going for the week.

 

So I have no reason to think that he would ever deviate from his plan.  I did not ask him about 2016.... 2016 should be the 1 or 2 pitcher and this is his 3rd year in the program... Honestly , ( to the parents) these coaches know your son very well by the time they are jr's.... if the coach has not history of abusing pitchers, then stay out of the way.   We are lucky that we have 7 coaches on the staff 2 managers , a trainer at every game and off-day pitchers keeping stats, pitch counts. pitch locations etc.... let me also say that while pitch limits are very important, girls, parties, grades ( lack of) , xbox, etc... will ruin a career faster than a coach throwing him 10 extra ptiches.

Before I even try to do anything else, let me state this so there’s no mistaking that I believe the pure numbers alone could ever do a perfect job of judging when to let a pitcher keep going or yank him. The numbers are great to have, but they only serve as guidelines because things like pitches starting to get “UP” in the zone, control beginning to wane, body language, more time taken between pitches, etc. tell a whole lot of the story as well and need to be considered.

 

Having said that, every coach/manager who is responsible for yanking a pitcher or leaving him in uses numbers in some way to help him make that decision, even if they don’t realize they’re doing it. All I’m trying to do here is to get how the numbers are used in a form so they’ll be consistent.

 

AGDAD19, very nice 1^st try! I was cogitatin’ on it myself some yesterday, and had some difficulty in figuring out a way to represent what had taken place. The way I understand what you’re proposing is to use the REAL pitch count, then make additions and subtractions after each inning to get a number. That’s fine by me, but is that the way it’s really done as the game goes on? I’ve always gotten the feeling it was something that was a constant decision making process a pitch at a time rather than an inning by inning thing.

 

I do like the way you’d taken into account rest between innings, but what about when the pitcher bats, as very often happen is HS? It’s one thing if the pitcher just sits on the bench, but it’s another if he also has to bat, quite another if he becomes a base runner, and another still if he has to do a lot of running. It would seem to me that if the latter happens, rather than getting rest and acquiring “good” points, he’d actually be fatiguing himself even more, acquiring “bad” points.

 

What do you think about a “running” number as opposed to a number computed by inning?

coach2709,

 

I completely understand that you need to be in charge, but no matter what happens, no coach in the world can or should cut parents out of the loop since they’re the ones ultimately responsible for their child, assuming he’s still under age.

 

Like you said, not all coaches think like you do, but more importantly, not all coaches have a high degree of experience in handling pitchers. So maybe on your team I don’t have to worry about it, but on some other team my concerns might well be legitimate, but under your philosophy I can either accept it or pack my bags. Isn’t there some middle ground here?

I completely agree that a parent shouldn't be left out of the loop but there is a time and place for that.  During the middle of the game is not it.  These are things that need to be hashed out in the preseason or if there is an injury during the season then we meet to figure out a plan to help them.  If I follow the plan then parent shouldn't come up and be mad about something.  Want to adjust the plan we will / can but don't do anything underhanded to go behind my back.  Just wrong and these things do happen.  Long time ago I got wind that a parent was calling pitches from the stands for his kid but I was also calling pitches because I wasn't very smart at the time due to my youth.  I have no idea if he was calling them or not but if he was then we had the same game plan because that kid threw every pitch I called.  Probably bunch of people wanting to stir up trouble but it does happen.  If I had found out it was going on I probably would have dismissed him from the team.

 

I don't know what the solution is to find that middle ground for everyone and probably isn't solution.  All we can do is post on here and hope a new coach or parent can read it and learn from it.  Or talk to others out there when we can before games, at meetings or anywhere.

coach2709,

 

The good thing about all this is that while those bad things do happen, thankfully they don’t happen very often. What’s sad is, when you’re in the middle of something like that as a coach, player, or parent, it can be all consuming. It would be great if everyone could just get together and talk these things out without any animosity, but I’ve found out more than once that when family members get into a “protective” mode, deserved or not, everything goes downhill at avalanche speed. Hopefully the coach doesn’t get into a “protective” mode too because that just makes things all the worse.

 

The real sadness is, it’s seldom the player making the problem worse, but he’s always the one who suffers the most.

 

 

AGDAD19,

 

I didn’t understand what the base number came from. Now I’m “assuming” that number is the total pitches the pitcher has thrown, then there are additions and subtractions to that number based on the given criteria.

 

What “prescribed” pitch count are you talking about?

 

Personally, I don’t care how complicated the algorithm is because the computer doesn’t care. Unfortunately, since I’m the only person in the world using the program that has all the information already available, I’m afraid that means someone’s gonna be doing some work to get an answer.

 

I agree that the pitching “loads” on the body are much different than the hitting or running loads. But what I was thinking about wasn’t the load on the arm, but rather the load on the legs. Tired legs are a roadmap to pitching problems, and running can tax the legs, plus when a player’s running the bases or batting, he’s not RESTING which is  a huge part of you calculation. I’m not saying it’s a game stopper, but I am saying it should definitely be considered.

 

Like you I’m always up for a discussion about pitcher safety. That’s what led me into PAP, PAP^3, and PAP with stress. When I got into PAP with stress I wanted to also factor in pitches in an inning and rest, but to be honest I never found the time. Now that I have the time I’ve been thinking about it a lot. I’m in the process of putting my thoughts together now. If and when I get that done I’ll PM you a copy and we can talk about it some more.

There ya go Stats high jacking another topic!

Way to go!

AGDAD19, check your dialogs.

 

I thought I understood it, but now I’m beginning to wonder.

 

If you start with a given number off the chart, why wouldn’t he get credit for an 8 pitch inning in the 1^st?

 

Have you tried to use your method in action? When I test something like that, I go to MLB.com and score a past game from the play by play.

Been messing around with adjusting the total pitches based on the total pitches and pitches in an inning to see if pure pitch counts can’t be improved on. I'm pretty sure I have that done fairly well. Its been suggested that the amount of rest between innings for the pitcher should also be a factor, and now I’m trying to get a handle on that as well.

 

Here’s the theory. Let’s say 2 pitchers throw a 25 pitch inning. The pitcher who gets say 20 minutes rest before having to pitch again will be less fatigued than the one who only got 10 minutes rest. That seems like good common sense and not something I’d argue with, but how would that be represented?

 

Getting the rest time for me is no problem at all since I have a clock running all the time anyway. Whether that time should be factored in, and if so how, is the question.