Someone posted this link to Div. 1 high pitch counts a while back. I found it interesting and helpful when comparing programs.
http://www.boydsworld.com/data/pitchcount.html
thats a good question Lion. My son is a freshman in college so I don't know specifically what his coaches believe about pitch counts. Maybe we should have had that discussion about pitch counts.
What we did discuss in length was philosophy and training. How each pitcher was put on a specific training based off his job on the team. I know of several of his teammates that were limited in fall because of how much they pitched last spring and summer. 2 were basically shut down all fall. These were returning players. According to my son, he was / is monitored closely on everything he is doing pitching wise (probably everway wise 
).
The converaation about a summer team has already been decided where he will go based off the philospohy that teams pitching coach has that is similar to his PC on college team and there is a threshold of if he pitches X inning, he will just work out next summer.
Originally Posted by AliasGrace:
Someone posted this link to Div. 1 high pitch counts a while back. I found it interesting and helpful when comparing programs.
http://www.boydsworld.com/data/pitchcount.html
Hey thanks, I post that site periodically. Its a good resource.
However, my premise is that pitchers get hurt, even in ideal situations, but there are different times when getting hurt can hurt and when it wont as much.
Once your son leaves your home you have no control over his destiny. I know that you all know that his workload will increase significantly when he goes to college or turns pro. So control what you can, when you can, even if that means that he may not be playing as much as the kid next door, not attending as many showcases, sufficient off season rest, but at least when something does happen you don't have to think about what did you do wrong.
JMO
Originally Posted by chefmike7777:
thats a good question Lion. My son is a freshman in college so I don't know specifically what his coaches believe about pitch counts. Maybe we should have had that discussion about pitch counts.
What we did discuss in length was philosophy and training. How each pitcher was put on a specific training based off his job on the team. I know of several of his teammates that were limited in fall because of how much they pitched last spring and summer. 2 were basically shut down all fall. These were returning players. According to my son, he was / is monitored closely on everything he is doing pitching wise (probably everway wise ).
The converaation about a summer team has already been decided where he will go based off the philospohy that teams pitching coach has that is similar to his PC on college team and there is a threshold of if he pitches X inning, he will just work out next summer.
DK did not pitch the summer after freshman year because of the amount of innings he put in (highest amount for a freshman). That was a decision recommended by pcoach.
IMO the only time a pitcher should pitch summer league is if he needs the work or his draft year.
You are correct after a full summer most of the pitchers take time off fall. The good part of DK not pitching that first summer is that he got to work on improvements on pitches that sophomore fall. Most of the top programs work this philosophy, but IMO every program should do the same.
Most frosh starters on staff begin as relievers, its their way of breaking into the game and build up their innings.
Enjoy!!!
Originally Posted by AliasGrace:
Someone posted this link to Div. 1 high pitch counts a while back. I found it interesting and helpful when comparing programs.
http://www.boydsworld.com/data/pitchcount.html
That's interesting. I put all the information in an Excel spreadsheet on my "wall" and added sorting.
The highest Pitch Count per Inning (I added this column) was 28.8. over 4.2 innings pitched. I think this pitcher should have been pulled after 2 innings.
Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by Marklaker:
Unfortunately, high stress innings don’t receive nearly the same scrutiny as overall pitch counts. Likewise, I believe cold weather and early season pitch totals should also be closely monitored.
But why would a young pitcher be in that position to begin with, if he cant get threw an inning with the appropriate amount of acceptable pitches he should not be in it to begin with.
Aside from the fact not every high school pitcher has the luxury of a stellar or in some cases sound defense, even the best have innings where they struggle with their command. In combination, it can take a heavy toll.
TPM, yeah that is what is coming down to supposedly, innings. He is slated at moment as 3rd starter.Tthey said he if he threw how they thought he could, he wouldn't be going to summer team but wanted him to have a slot in case he was moved to closer or other reliever position.
He is going to be in your neck of the woods in last weekend of February. his team is playing at UM
Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by chefmike7777:
thats a good question Lion. My son is a freshman in college so I don't know specifically what his coaches believe about pitch counts. Maybe we should have had that discussion about pitch counts.
What we did discuss in length was philosophy and training. How each pitcher was put on a specific training based off his job on the team. I know of several of his teammates that were limited in fall because of how much they pitched last spring and summer. 2 were basically shut down all fall. These were returning players. According to my son, he was / is monitored closely on everything he is doing pitching wise (probably everway wise ).
The converaation about a summer team has already been decided where he will go based off the philospohy that teams pitching coach has that is similar to his PC on college team and there is a threshold of if he pitches X inning, he will just work out next summer.
DK did not pitch the summer after freshman year because of the amount of innings he put in (highest amount for a freshman). That was a decision recommended by pcoach.
IMO the only time a pitcher should pitch summer league is if he needs the work or his draft year.
You are correct after a full summer most of the pitchers take time off fall. The good part of DK not pitching that first summer is that he got to work on improvements on pitches that sophomore fall. Most of the top programs work this philosophy, but IMO every program should do the same.
Most frosh starters on staff begin as relievers, its their way of breaking into the game and build up their innings.
Enjoy!!!
Problem is that the recruiting climate has changed. It's the rare pitcher that can expect to be recruited from only playing in the spring. Which (and not that I'm agreeing with it) might be ab argument for getting rid of high school ball and moving it all to clubs and then trying to limit the season to May - October.
Originally Posted by AliasGrace:
Someone posted this link to Div. 1 high pitch counts a while back. I found it interesting and helpful when comparing programs.
http://www.boydsworld.com/data/pitchcount.html
Wow, some red flags for Texas Pan-Am and Northern Illinois. Sam Street of Texas PA shows up first and again the next week. He had 15 starts and 11 CG's, most with high counts. And he had a fairly high K count so it's not like he is a control or deception guy.
Anything over 120 shows up on an exception list for D1 college pitchers. What does that tell you about 130 for a freshman in HS?
Originally Posted by JohnF:
My personal favorite is when coaches switch pitcher and catcher 
(OK being really sarcastic here - just for levity)....
People who are anti pitch count invariably bring up baseball history, but conveniently leave out that the game and hitters have changed a lot since then. Were Spahn, Sain, Marichal, Ruth, Young, Mathewson, etc. all pitching since they were 8-9 years old? Were they playing and pitching year round? Were they going into a travel league circuit to pitch games in front of college scouts who had their sundials to get their velo? Or did perhaps they actually grow into their bodies before seriously taking up pitching? (I'm too young to know - hahaha).
I get the whole pitch count argument and believe in it in general. It's a hard subject though because it is different based on development of a child as a pitcher. These are conversations you have to have regularly with your child. Before HS I think it's certainly the parents obligation to talk to whatever coach you have and determine their knowledge and acceptance of pitch counts. Also whether the coach has a love affair with the curve - yes a different rabbit hole we could jump into. Then make decisions whether you want to pay and play for that team. At HS - trust that your child will have taken all the conversations you've had and that he'll talk with the coach. If not, then there are ways to casually talk with the coach about his "pitching or pitcher" theories. Although I suspect most HS coaches come with a bit of history so you should know your answer beforehand. There are parents who decide not to have their child pitch for a specific HS and only go the showcase/travel ball option with a coach they do trust.
In the long run pitching isn't an inherently normal action for your shoulder as I think *any* parent has been told when they invariably take their child in for some sort of injury. Which all too often happens regardless of how you've protected your young pitchers with pitch counts, don't throw curves, eat your veggies, don't swim in the summer before the "big game", etc.
Those old-timers probably did start pitching young and may have pitched MORE than today's youth. However, I would caution against anyone using that to make the argument that the higher pitch counts actually BUILT durability (although I think there is a decent subargument or two that may have merit). I have a theory (and that's all it is since it wouldn't even be possible to find the data I would need to prove it). I think there are those who are genetically able to sustain heavy loads pitching-wise. They aren't as susceptible to arm injuries. In the past, before pitch counts were considered, I think those that were so genetically gifted, survived the gauntlet of youth ball and many got to the majors while many other pitchers "blew out their arms" and were left behind. Today, we pay a lot more attention to a pitchers workload and we baby (and I don't necessarily use the term in a bad way) young arms. So, a lot of hard throwers today make it as far as the pros before they start seeing problems. In the past, these same pitchers might have been done somewhere in their high school years and we'd never hear of them. I think we are seeing the first generation of pitchers who have been under pitch counts since they started. I think a modern focus on pitch counts has led to a lot of guys going farther in their careers.The result is a much deeper pool of hard-throwers.
I also wanted to comment on many posts slamming Lion. I just reread that post. In what part of does he ever indicate that he was "OK" with the high pitch counts put on his son? It's ridiculous that anyone would jump him for what I read as an expression of concern over it and for expressing a reality of life; that it can be a struggle for a parent (especially one with no experience) to make the decision to question the coach. Again, his post IN NO WAY indicated that he was ok with it.In order to have a good conversation on the subject, we need to encourage parents of pitchers and discuss ways to help them approach the problem instead of calling them idiots and attacking them.
Originally Posted by roothog66:
I also wanted to comment on many posts slamming Lion. I just reread that post. In what part of does he ever indicate that he was "OK" with the high pitch counts put on his son? It's ridiculous that anyone would jump him for what I read as an expression of concern over it and for expressing a reality of life; that it can be a struggle for a parent (especially one with no experience) to make the decision to question the coach. Again, his post IN NO WAY indicated that he was ok with it.In order to have a good conversation on the subject, we need to encourage parents of pitchers and discuss ways to help them approach the problem instead of calling them idiots and attacking them.
Actually, Root, he did express that he was OK with it, at least to some degree, in explaining it away as a very big game, providing some background and expressing some pride in the accomplishment. He was "caught up in the moment". That is understandable and I think we've all been there.
My perception is that Lion has a very talented young player and he is about to get pulled in a million different directions over the next few years. I believe that Lion is a very knowledgeable guy with best interests at heart for his kid and is rightfully proud and excited about his son's skills and accomplishments. I totally agree with you that it can be a struggle to make the decision to question the coach. We see it often here that the excitement and visions of grandeur can somewhat cloud the path of decisions that even the most level-headed parents face regarding talented athlete sons and daughters. When they are at a particularly high point, a gentle nudge or suggestion will rarely have an impact on their thought process. Sometimes, a jolt is the only thing that will do so.
Subsequent posts from Lion support that he has the right mindset regarding arm care and protection but I don't think the observations and comments from others were without merit and hope that he sees the helpful intent behind them from all three parties, myself included.
The other point Coach brought up was to question advising son to lie to or deceive the HC. He finished by emphasizing setting the right example to your child. I certainly support that position as well.
Originally Posted by cabbagedad:
Originally Posted by roothog66:
I also wanted to comment on many posts slamming Lion. I just reread that post. In what part of does he ever indicate that he was "OK" with the high pitch counts put on his son? It's ridiculous that anyone would jump him for what I read as an expression of concern over it and for expressing a reality of life; that it can be a struggle for a parent (especially one with no experience) to make the decision to question the coach. Again, his post IN NO WAY indicated that he was ok with it.In order to have a good conversation on the subject, we need to encourage parents of pitchers and discuss ways to help them approach the problem instead of calling them idiots and attacking them.
Actually, Root, he did express that he was OK with it, at least to some degree, in explaining it away as a very big game, providing some background and expressing some pride in the accomplishment. He was "caught up in the moment". That is understandable and I think we've all been there.
My perception is that Lion has a very talented young player and he is about to get pulled in a million different directions over the next few years. I believe that Lion is a very knowledgeable guy with best interests at heart for his kid and is rightfully proud and excited about his son's skills and accomplishments. I totally agree with you that it can be a struggle to make the decision to question the coach. We see it often here that the excitement and visions of grandeur can somewhat cloud the path of decisions that even the most level-headed parents face regarding talented athlete sons and daughters. When they are at a particularly high point, a gentle nudge or suggestion will rarely have an impact on their thought process. Sometimes, a jolt is the only thing that will do so.
Subsequent posts from Lion support that he has the right mindset regarding arm care and protection but I don't think the observations and comments from others were without merit and hope that he sees the helpful intent behind them from all three parties, myself included.
The other point Coach brought up was to question advising son to lie to or deceive the HC. He finished by emphasizing setting the right example to your child. I certainly support that position as well.
I invite you to go back and reread his posts. The first expressed concern that his kid's coach was ignorant concerning pitch counts. The second mentioned that the first time was a big game, but that when he did it a second time it was a sign to him there was a problem. I'd like you to comment on whether Coach's response was deserved or helpful.
Additionally, I was a little disappointed. I've read literally hundreds of posts from Coach and this is the first time I found a post of his a problem.
I would guess Lion is not the only poster with this problem. There are plenty of parents that come here to share their experiences. Lion,for example knows there's a problem. But it's easy to tell a parent he needs to take up the issue (or have his kid do so) than it is to actually do so. What Lion needed was to be able to rely on the experiences of posters here in finding the solution - not a rebuke.
Originally Posted by roothog66:
Originally Posted by JohnF:
<...snip...>
People who are anti pitch count invariably bring up baseball history, but conveniently leave out that the game and hitters have changed a lot since then. Were Spahn, Sain, Marichal, Ruth, Young, Mathewson, etc. all pitching since they were 8-9 years old? Were they playing and pitching year round? Were they going into a travel league circuit to pitch games in front of college scouts who had their sundials to get their velo? Or did perhaps they actually grow into their bodies before seriously taking up pitching? (I'm too young to know - hahaha).
<...snip...>Those old-timers probably did start pitching young and may have pitched MORE than today's youth. However, I would caution against anyone using that to make the argument that the higher pitch counts actually BUILT durability (although I think there is a decent subargument or two that may have merit). I have a theory (and that's all it is since it wouldn't even be possible to find the data I would need to prove it). I think there are those who are genetically able to sustain heavy loads pitching-wise. They aren't as susceptible to arm injuries. In the past, before pitch counts were considered, I think those that were so genetically gifted, survived the gauntlet of youth ball and many got to the majors while many other pitchers "blew out their arms" and were left behind. Today, we pay a lot more attention to a pitchers workload and we baby (and I don't necessarily use the term in a bad way) young arms. So, a lot of hard throwers today make it as far as the pros before they start seeing problems. In the past, these same pitchers might have been done somewhere in their high school years and we'd never hear of them. I think we are seeing the first generation of pitchers who have been under pitch counts since they started. I think a modern focus on pitch counts has led to a lot of guys going farther in their careers.The result is a much deeper pool of hard-throwers.
I'll give you the genetics argument - I think there's merit to that... but...
I have a hard time picturing the old-timer parents jumping into the family SUV to drive somewhere to play in some tournament miles from home... I think we're also talking about the time of trains/buses and not planes... My mental picture is more playing pickup baseball locally in between working odd jobs, hanging out with friends, going to school, playing hookey, fishin', etc. I have a recollection of reading a book about an "old time" pitcher and his workout routine involving baling hay...
The point isn't whether they threw more or less it was how they did it and what else they did... They may have thrown more, but it's all in the effort required and the environment. Growing up they also didn't have to face anyone coming up with today's metal bat technology or today's hitters who spend countless hours in a batting cage with some iron mike tossing them BP.
I'd rather "baby" my child so that he can play catch with his baby some day just like I got the chance to do with my 3 babies. My youngest baby didn't start throwing harder until he started working out with a program designed to help pitchers get bigger, faster, stronger. That's something that pitchers of yesteryear didn't have.
I'm glad JP doesn't pitch.
Root, to back up Cabbage a little here, lion did make several comments that led me to believe he was OK with the pitch counts. It has happened 3 times from what I can tell from his posts:
Originally Posted by lionbaseball:
Our high school coach had my son throw 125 pitches and 140 pitches in two separate games.
Originally Posted by lionbaseball:
My son was a freshman on Varsity last year. The first game my son pitched a complete game that gave the other team their first regular season loss in 2 years. So pitching 130 pitches was easy to forget.
It was after these comments, with some minimizing about it, that coach responded with a fairly straight forward message. The issue should have been addressed and stopped after the first outing. If it happened again, more stringent measures should have been taken. To have it happen a 3rd time is almost unexcusable as a HS freshman. This situation is asking for trouble. 125, 130 and 140 pitch games as a freshman in HS is not good.
To your point that subsequent comments have been made by lion to show that he is knowledgeable about this issue, you are correct. However, knowing it and doing something about it are two different things. Speak to the coach. Let him know your concerns. If he doesn't like it, it may be time to pull your kid from the team. No matter how talented he is, he will never make it to college if his arm is blown out.
I remember in HS, my son pitched against a kid that threw 140 pitches in 8 innings against my son. There was a pro scout there to see him as well. We all thought that was CRAZY - and he was a senior. Kid didn't go pro, went to a mid-low level D1 and has done OK, but has had some arm problems.
Don't just know about the problem, take action.
Originally Posted by roothog66:
Problem is that the recruiting climate has changed. It's the rare pitcher that can expect to be recruited from only playing in the spring. Which (and not that I'm agreeing with it) might be ab argument for getting rid of high school ball and moving it all to clubs and then trying to limit the season to May - October.
Root,
We all come from different climates, I would expect anyone reading would take that into consideration. Where I am from bb is played all year long, always was and will always be. There is a lot to consider if your son is a young pitcher (mine began at 8).
By the way, this is not the first time I have gotten up on my soapbox. I have been here for a very long time and have seen many many post regarding injuries, in fact they made a forum for it.
The pitchers having TJS are from my sons era in proball (2007 until now). They also threw pretty hard, and some have had shoulder issues as well. Conditioning has gotten better and ASMI has helped with better guidelines, but injuries still occur.
Maybe you havent read or understood what I have said. I keep stating keep things to a minimum for YOUTH pitchers because as they get older so will the pitch counts.
I also took Lions post the same as others did. I especially didn't understand why he would have his son give signs to him when he wants out when all he has to do is tell the coach he is done.
Regardless, he is asking a lot of good questions and hope that he is learning from this topic.
That's what we are here for.
Originally Posted by roothog66:
Originally Posted by cabbagedad:
Originally Posted by roothog66:
...
I invite you to go back and reread his posts. ...I'd like you to comment on whether Coach's response was deserved or helpful.
...
Root, I totally get your point. And I did go back and re-re-read. He did lead off with the concerns as you state.
I shouldn't speak for Coach but I suspect he is seeing some of what I am with Lion's posts... around some great info and questions are some comments that perhaps suggest he could still benefit from that jolt to his thought process...
Here is another example (one of his posts)...
"Concerning the sign, absolutely would I implement this sign IF after talking to the coach he ignored my sons' health. It's not like he is stealing crab legs from supermarkets or raping girls on campus. 
If that doesn't work then I would talk with the Athletic Director who is the head football coach and tell him that if he wants his starting QB to return next season then he (AD) needs to talk with the baseball coach. Football is King in Texas! "
Now, one of the things that grabbed my attention with this - he talks about going to the AD regarding the problem, which is great. But he puts more emphasis on the AD also being the football coach and how he needs to address the problem if he wants his star qb back. Well, thought #1 should be that the AD will address the issue because it is the responsible thing for him to do in the position of AD. (I didn't comment on this initially because I didn't want to "pile on"). I'm pretty sure that one didn't sit well with Coach who is an AD and is/was also a football coach. And I don't even know what to make of the "raping girls on campus" analogy (yes, I get the reference). I know this is, perhaps, reading too much into things and again, there is the emoticon. But when looked at cumulatively, I do see concerns. Now, he could be totally yanking chain and I'm way off base but...
Originally Posted by cabbagedad:
Originally Posted by roothog66:
Originally Posted by cabbagedad:
Originally Posted by roothog66:
...
I invite you to go back and reread his posts. ...I'd like you to comment on whether Coach's response was deserved or helpful.
...
Root, I totally get your point. And I did go back and re-re-read. He did lead off with the concerns as you state.
I shouldn't speak for Coach but I suspect he is seeing some of what I am with Lion's posts... around some great info and questions are some comments that perhaps suggest he could benefit from that jolt to his thought process...
Here is another example (one of his posts)...
"Concerning the sign, absolutely would I implement this sign IF after talking to the coach he ignored my sons' health. It's not like he is stealing crab legs from supermarkets or raping girls on campus.
If that doesn't work then I would talk with the Athletic Director who is the head football coach and tell him that if he wants his starting QB to return next season then he (AD) needs to talk with the baseball coach. Football is King in Texas! "
Now, one of the things that grabbed my attention with this - he talks about going to the AD regarding the problem, which is great. But he puts more emphasis on the AD also being the football coach and how he needs to address the problem if he wants his star qb back. Well, thought #1 should be that the AD will address the issue because it is the responsible thing for him to do in the position of AD. (I didn't comment on this initially because I didn't want to "pile on"). I'm pretty sure that one didn't sit well with Coach who is an AD and is/was also a football coach. And I don't even know what to make of the "raping girls on campus" analogy (yes, I get the reference). I know this is, perhaps, reading too much into things and again, there is the emoticon. But when looked at cumulatively, I do see concerns. Now, he could be totally yanking chain and I'm way off base but...
I missed that comment about the "crab legs, and raping girls" and this style seems kind of familiar, not just to me, I'll bet.
Whether you want to think of baseball as a "May to September" sport or not... it's started. Today was officially the first day of practice around here... Our baseball teams practiced (in shifts) for about 5 hours today on the field..
I like the way a few posters are speaking about me in the 3rd person and then interpreting what I stated.
Yes, my son threw too many pitches in the 2 games I mentioned. .
Yes, I believe that is wrong.
Yes, I need to talk to the coach (who is not the A.D.).
Appreciate everything Cabbage has said and Root I'm glad you have got something out of my posts and hope that one doesn't offset that. That being said here's where I'm coming from - everyone who posts on here speaks from the experiences they go through. That molds and shapes what we think and believe - even how we post on here. When it comes to the people on here - we don't know anybody and just have a glimpse as to who they are based on how they post. So its hard to get how someone feels or what they truly mean sometimes when you mix it with tone and meaning being difficult to understand from the written word.
So was I being critical? Yes I was but I was also trying to be helpful because I was calling out what I thought was wrong. As for the first one I think Cabbage has nailed it because it happened 3 times his freshman year and he justified it. Yeah I get getting caught up in the game and the emotion from that. Sadly I let a sophomore go 130 pitches trying to get the win early in my career. That was the last time that ever happened once I had a chance to think about how wrong it was. I guess you could say I lost games after that because once I felt they reached the magic number I pulled them. It is what it is and I'll do that again when I become a head coach again. If it happens and you learn from it that's the best of a bad situation. I don't know Lion and he's made some good posts after that. That's great but at the end of the day it's on him if he allows his son to be used this way - not us regardless of what we post.
As for the second one and the signal that's the one that ticked me off more than anything. That's just deceitful, underhanded and sends the wrong message. There are many ways to handle this situation than becoming a liar and that's what it is. When he was going to go to the AD / football coach I would hope that guy would handle it correctly in doing what's best for his kid and health - not to protect his team. While at the end of the day it's the same result it can destroy that schools dynamic among it the coaches at that school. When you serve many roles like an AD and head coach for a sport it can get sticky. That's one of the reasons (along with some health issues) why I gave up coaching while I truly learn how to be a good AD. But I'm still seen as a football coach looking out for football by some of our sports. The one thing I tell parents when they come to me and complain I ask them if they have spoken to the coach first and the majority of them haven't.
To effect change in behavior you have to start with that person. If Lion wanted the coach to change behavior in how he handles his son's pitch count then he should do that by discussing it with him instead of going around his back. By doing this then possibly it could help all the pitchers because it will open the coaches eyes - or maybe not. But if you don't try and go with the secret signal you go from helping solve a problem to creating a bigger problem.
Was I trying to be a jerk - no I wasn't but I tend to approach problems and issues head on. I'm also someone who doesn't like confrontation but it's also the best way to handle issues so I go at them. I can't stand it when people go behind anybody's back to try and get something. Just wrong.
Originally Posted by roothog66:
I also wanted to comment on many posts slamming Lion. I just reread that post. In what part of does he ever indicate that he was "OK" with the high pitch counts put on his son? It's ridiculous that anyone would jump him for what I read as an expression of concern over it and for expressing a reality of life; that it can be a struggle for a parent (especially one with no experience) to make the decision to question the coach. Again, his post IN NO WAY indicated that he was ok with it.In order to have a good conversation on the subject, we need to encourage parents of pitchers and discuss ways to help them approach the problem instead of calling them idiots and attacking them.
Thanks roothog66,
It seems like you get it and coach2709 doesn't.
What's great about forums is that if someone can't be encouraging then there is always the "Block" function.
Originally Posted by lionbaseball:
Originally Posted by roothog66:
Thanks roothog66,
It seems like you get it and coach2709 doesn't.
What's great about forums is that if someone can't be encouraging then there is always the "Block" function.
That's certainly your prerogative. Too bad you'll miss plenty of good information.
Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by AGDAD19:
All for pitch counts but unfortunately they are very narrow mind and leave to much to interpretation. I think the most critical and often left out interpretation of pitch counts is how they are reached. I feel those, including Andrews, who produce these pitch counts are missing that critical issue and often imply a "one size fits all" mentality. Yes I know they are just guidelines, but then you are leaving the interpretation up to those we've already established are often to dumb to follow them be it parents or coaches. Simply saying 70 or 80 or 90 pitches is grossly inadequate. How the pitcher reaches that total is far more critical. I'll simply say this, a pitcher who throws 85 or 90 pitches over 6 innings, never had an inning over 20 and team's had multiple innings scoring runs and having quality at bats is at less of a risk than a pitcher who throws 75 pitches in 3 innings and team's failed to produce a base runner. But by their matrix, 75 is better than 90. I really think someone needs to come up with a guideline of pluses and minuses based on number of pitches per inning and rest time between innings.
ASMI makes recommendations, have you ever looked at it? Then you would know that there are recommendations for rest between games.It is up to parents IMO, to make sure that the coaches their pitchers play for are familiar with it as well. Not all coaches are proficient in managing pitchers, heck even some ML managers have trouble with it.
Of course common sense rules and it is not one size fits all. If someone interprets it that way, well I don't think they did their homework. The WWW is a huge place, anyone who can access google can at anytime ask it any question about pitching to educate themselves.
Let me ask a question, why do coaches remove young pitchers from the mound and put them in the SS or 3B position, the place where that player makes many throws?
Or why would young pitchers stop their season only to pick up a ball again in a few weeks for pitching lessons? I don't get that, if you do please explain?
I've been TPM'd.
Obviously I was at least competent enough with WWW to find this Web site. I'm also fairly well versed in ASMI's and Dr. Andrews pitch counts and days between rest. With the exception of age adjustments, they are pretty much a one size fits all(age dependant) recommendation. Obviously the time off between mound appearances is a critical part of the equation. But I think you will see this refined with research to an hours/pitch recommendation (ie. 24 pitches, 24 hours rest, 72-72, 98-98...).
Obviously reading comprehension when browsing the WWW is an important attribute as well. If you'll reread my post, I wasn't talking about rest between mound appearances but the time between innings during a game that a pitcher had to recover and it's effect on fatigue based on the number of pitches thrown the previous inning. This, and how many pitches were thrown per inning, has a direct effect on the damage all pitchers experience during an outing. Simple pitch counts can't account for this.
Definitely not trying to get into a pissing match with you. I respect the journey you've traveled and experience you've gained through the years. I think you miss understood my post and assumed I may not have traveled or am traveling the same journey. I am by no means an expert but I am well versed.
Lol. I guess maybe I did TPM you.
Ok I understand I may have misunderstood you.
My point its obly a guideline and anyone can access the internet for more info (comment not directed to you in particular).
As far as the pitch counts vs hours a reliever may have done 30 warm up pitches just waiting to go into the game.
So would you combine them? I think that running out night after night might be harmful.
Thats where the common sense comes in.
Ok I understand I may have misunderstood you.
My point its obly a guideline and anyone can access the internet for more info (comment not directed to you in particular).
As far as the pitch counts vs hours a reliever may have done 30 warm up pitches just waiting to go into the game.
So would you combine them? I think that running out night after night might be harmful.
Thats where the common sense comes in.
It's really unfortunate that so many threads here devolve to bickering.
Having been in the middle of a few forum battles myself early on, I know what it feels like from both sides, and have concluded that it's just not necessary.
And it really stinks when it leads to a dad like Lion (who seems sincere and open ) threatening to block someone like coach2709 (who so many of us respect and have learned a lot from).
But with the caveat that I won't engage further, I think it's worth noting that the harshness that's so prevalent here wouldn't happen in person.
For example: Coach, as informed and passionate as you are about kids' health, I can't imagine you saying to someone, "So what I hear you saying is: 'You're OK with turning your son into a liar.'"
My guess is, as an accomplished AD, you'd find a different way of saying that.
I hope so, anyway.
Originally Posted by TPM:
Lol. I guess maybe I did TPM you.
Ok I understand I may have misunderstood you.
My point its obly a guideline and anyone can access the internet for more info (comment not directed to you in particular).
As far as the pitch counts vs hours a reliever may have done 30 warm up pitches just waiting to go into the game.
So would you combine them? I think that running out night after night might be harmful.
Thats where the common sense comes in.
Ok I understand I may have misunderstood you.
My point its obly a guideline and anyone can access the internet for more info (comment not directed to you in particular).
As far as the pitch counts vs hours a reliever may have done 30 warm up pitches just waiting to go into the game.
So would you combine them? I think that running out night after night might be harmful.
Thats where the common sense comes in.
When it comes to common sense, I think you and I have both discovered that that is unfortunately lacking in many of these situations.
As far as the pitch counts go, I'm of the understanding that they are only tallying the pitches thrown in a competitive setting, ie. to a live batter. I think warm ups, throws to first etc. are factored in as given so only the competitive pitches are counted. I think they assume a certain number of these throws are part of the preparation and not as stressful on the arm. That can be debatable.
I'll share a related story on this exactly common sense, pitch count. During the 5th round of the playoffs my son's freshman year, he pitched a Saturday game 3 and was pulled after the 5th inning. Pitch count his freshman year was never an issue because the coach taught psychology and was certain a 14 year old freshman couldn't handle the mental stress of varsity. Now his talent had him there but the coach always had a quick hook at the first sign of adversity. That probably saved the inevitable discussion of pitch counts for his mom and me. Back to the game.... we were leading 5-0 after 5 and he had thrown 72 pitches. Probably a good point to pull him but it wasn't due to pitch count, I think that's as far as he'd trust the freshman and chose to bring in senior. Besides his post game arm care, his usual protocol was to throw lightly the next day, do band work and get a running program in. Plus 2 days was a long toss day and so on. So Sunday he did his usual and Monday he was to long toss. I told him if he didn't get to during practice, call me and I'd come up after practice to long toss with him. Inevitable I get the call he didn't during practice, his head coach has a terrible protocol for his pitchers, so I met him at the high school to throw with him. I forgot the ball bucket so we had to ask the coach if we could borrow a ball bucket. He asked my son what we were doing and when son informed him he was going to long toss, he said "aren't you sore, you should be sore." Now whether it's his post pitching routine or luck
, my son rarely if ever gets sore. When he informed the coach of this, the coach said, "if I'd had known that, I would have had you throw in the intrasquad today." At this point I knew he didn't understand the difference in stress of long toss, a bullpen or throwing to live batters. Lesson learned for both. When the high school pitching coach heard this, he put his head down and walked away.
From my exp. the parents are as much to blame if not more than the coaches. As many of you know I have a 2013, 2014,2016, 2018... I have been around parents from 2009 to likely 2018... and this is just the high school parents.
Excluding coaches and AD's I would venture to say I have met more parents than most. Parents feel that if their son comes out of the game then they are losing out on a chance to be seen or win etc... I know now that RC do not care... they are looking at so many more things than how many innings the player pitched... they are not interested in the game as much as those involved. They can see want they want to see in an inning or two.
It is the parents responsibility to protect the health of the player. I have told all my sons that if you do not feel "healthy" and ready to go out of the bullpen then you do not pitch. If you feel during the game that you are fatigued out and need to come out, call for a mound visit. Of go over your pitch counts with the PC between innings.
As far as the coaches are concerned, most know when the player is "losing" his stuff. For my sons, when they start losing their off speed control I can tell it will not be long. I wonder if the stories I hear about kids throwing 100+ pitches are pitchers from smaller schools with limited roster size? We generally carry enough pitchers so no one gets worn out.
2018 has been told he will get varisty innings this season. He is crusing 85 and hitting 87 I have already had a "hey what are you planning for 2018 this season" talk with the HC... Now this might be easier for me having had three others come through the program.. Some might think that I should not talk to the HC about his plans, but he's my son, he gets one shot, and he is very talented. If I felt the HC did not have my sons best interest at heart we would play elsewhere.
Here is the plan our HC uses.
Nov-Dec workouts, throwing long, plenty of rest, no pitching.
Jan. pitching starts, fastballs only, working on mechanics, 20-30 pitch bullpens depending on age
Feb. Sr and Jr throwing two 40 pitch bullpens a week, fastball and changes only.... So and Fr 1-2 bullpens a week throwing 30-40 pitches
March. Scrimmages everyone throws 2 innings.....
March games ( tourney games and non-conference) upper class 50-60 pitches.... underclass 40-50 pitches. starting to bring in curve and slider for varsity, under class no sliders.
April games ( conference mostly) upper classes throwing 75-90 Once at 85 they are getting you out. underclass still at 50-60
May ( sectionals , state finals) game by game...
Now since 2018 is under class but throwing varsity his pitch counts are still based on his age.
I am fine with HC's approach and of course once in a while they go over a pitch or two but 90% of the time this is what happens. We did have a few sr's that have gone 100 in some games when there was no 35 pitch innning in there and it was state tourney. Many times early in the season, in lopsides games, HC will pull starters and let second tier pitchers get some innings.
I might add except for the state tourney, pitchers varsity or jv only start one game every 5 days.
Lastly, the school has won 13 district titles, 8 sectionals, state tourney appearences 5 times , all this in last 13 years.
Originally Posted by bacdorslider:
It is the parents responsibility to protect the health of the player. I have told all my sons that if you do not feel "healthy" and ready to go out of the bullpen then you do not pitch. If you feel during the game that you are fatigued out and need to come out, call for a mound visit. Of go over your pitch counts with the PC between innings.
As far as the coaches are concerned, most know when the player is "losing" his stuff. For my sons, when they start losing their off speed control I can tell it will not be long. I wonder if the stories I hear about kids throwing 100+ pitches are pitchers from smaller schools with limited roster size? We generally carry enough pitchers so no one gets worn out.
2018 has been told he will get varisty innings this season. He is crusing 85 and hitting 87 I have already had a "hey what are you planning for 2018 this season" talk with the HC... Now this might be easier for me having had three others come through the program.. Some might think that I should not talk to the HC about his plans, but he's my son, he gets one shot, and he is very talented. If I felt the HC did not have my sons best interest at heart we would play elsewhere.
I think you are correct about the smaller schools. Last year we had 4 pitchers, including my son, that could keep the games close. This year we are down to 2 pitchers with 4 others that can throw strikes but will need more defense to keep glames close.
So are there other high schools nearby where you could bring your son if you felt your son's pitching health was in danger? And would your son have to wait a year because of UIL rules to get back on varsity at another school?
I will post an update after I have a "what are you planning for my son this season" talk with the HC.
Originally Posted by jp24:
It's really unfortunate that so many threads here devolve to bickering.
Having been in the middle of a few forum battles myself early on, I know what it feels like from both sides, and have concluded that it's just not necessary.
And it really stinks when it leads to a dad like Lion (who seems sincere and open ) threatening to block someone like coach2709 (who so many of us respect and have learned a lot from).
But with the caveat that I won't engage further, I think it's worth noting that the harshness that's so prevalent here wouldn't happen in person.
For example: Coach, as informed and passionate as you are about kids' health, I can't imagine you saying to someone, "So what I hear you saying is: 'You're OK with turning your son into a liar.'"
My guess is, as an accomplished AD, you'd find a different way of saying that.
I hope so, anyway.
Honestly, I probably wouldn't. Telling a kid to circumvent the coach without addressing the issue with the coach first is a terrible idea. I'm pretty upfront and plain with the parents. When you try and be nice in how you say things parents tend to not hear it because it's not what they want to hear.
For example playing time - how many coaches (or anyone) would say something like "well we appreciate your concerns with your son not playing as much as you would like. He needs to work on ______ in practice to get better so he can earn more playing time. We need to put our best 9, 5, 11 (whatever sport) on the field and it's the coaches job to figure this out"? This at the end of the day is pretty condescending even it's not meant to be. It's meant to be a nice way of saying your son / daughter is not good enough now go away. But they don't go away usually. They tend to get more mad and things blow up more.
Here's what I've discovered - when you ask them who should sit so their son can play it gives them a shock of reality because they usually hadn't thought that far ahead. They want more playing time but haven't thought about who should sit in their place. They don't want to name names or pick out someone.
Now if they actually do name a kid then I ask them what do we do when another kid on the bench asking for more playing time and they say they want their son to sit. Then I explain the precedent has been set by their kid going into the lineup - if you want to play then you complain. But now everyone is fair game to sit for someone else to play. Where does it stop now that it's become a trainwreck? They usually see why it can't work then and drop it.
I'm probably not explaining it very well but it does work most of the time. There are still those parents who just want to see the world burn. If it comes to this I tell them I've tried to explain why this is a bad thing and it's still the coaches decision. Meeting over.
I always tell them they can expect honesty from me - not leaving the meeting happy. Maybe they will leave happy but I won't guarantee it.
Originally Posted by coach2709:
Originally Posted by jp24:
It's really unfortunate that so many threads here devolve to bickering.
Having been in the middle of a few forum battles myself early on, I know what it feels like from both sides, and have concluded that it's just not necessary.
And it really stinks when it leads to a dad like Lion (who seems sincere and open ) threatening to block someone like coach2709 (who so many of us respect and have learned a lot from).
But with the caveat that I won't engage further, I think it's worth noting that the harshness that's so prevalent here wouldn't happen in person.
For example: Coach, as informed and passionate as you are about kids' health, I can't imagine you saying to someone, "So what I hear you saying is: 'You're OK with turning your son into a liar.'"
My guess is, as an accomplished AD, you'd find a different way of saying that.
I hope so, anyway.
Honestly, I probably wouldn't. Telling a kid to circumvent the coach without addressing the issue with the coach first is a terrible idea. I'm pretty upfront and plain with the parents. When you try and be nice in how you say things parents tend to not hear it because it's not what they want to hear.
For example playing time - how many coaches (or anyone) would say something like "well we appreciate your concerns with your son not playing as much as you would like. He needs to work on ______ in practice to get better so he can earn more playing time. We need to put our best 9, 5, 11 (whatever sport) on the field and it's the coaches job to figure this out"? This at the end of the day is pretty condescending even it's not meant to be. It's meant to be a nice way of saying your son / daughter is not good enough now go away. But they don't go away usually. They tend to get more mad and things blow up more.
Here's what I've discovered - when you ask them who should sit so their son can play it gives them a shock of reality because they usually hadn't thought that far ahead. They want more playing time but haven't thought about who should sit in their place. They don't want to name names or pick out someone.
Now if they actually do name a kid then I ask them what do we do when another kid on the bench asking for more playing time and they say they want their son to sit. Then I explain the precedent has been set by their kid going into the lineup - if you want to play then you complain. But now everyone is fair game to sit for someone else to play. Where does it stop now that it's become a trainwreck? They usually see why it can't work then and drop it.
I'm probably not explaining it very well but it does work most of the time. There are still those parents who just want to see the world burn. If it comes to this I tell them I've tried to explain why this is a bad thing and it's still the coaches decision. Meeting over.
I always tell them they can expect honesty from me - not leaving the meeting happy. Maybe they will leave happy but I won't guarantee it.
I never addressed that particular part of Lion's post. My problem with doing something like that is that 1) you may give the coach an idea that there's an arm problem that doesn't exist, costing your kid time on the mound and 2) if the coach catches on, hold onto your hat. I know I would not appreciate it at all. Having said that, I think he was mainly thinking out loud about possible solutions. Unfortunately, avoiding any confrontation at all will hurt far more than it helps.
I'd also recomed, Lion, that if you've blocked coach maybe you'll read this. Even if he rubbed you the wrong way with the one response, there are few posters on here in the position to give it to you straight concerning your relationship with your kid's high school coach.
Originally Posted by lionbaseball:
Originally Posted by bacdorslider:
It is the parents responsibility to protect the health of the player. I have told all my sons that if you do not feel "healthy" and ready to go out of the bullpen then you do not pitch. If you feel during the game that you are fatigued out and need to come out, call for a mound visit. Of go over your pitch counts with the PC between innings.
As far as the coaches are concerned, most know when the player is "losing" his stuff. For my sons, when they start losing their off speed control I can tell it will not be long. I wonder if the stories I hear about kids throwing 100+ pitches are pitchers from smaller schools with limited roster size? We generally carry enough pitchers so no one gets worn out.
2018 has been told he will get varisty innings this season. He is crusing 85 and hitting 87 I have already had a "hey what are you planning for 2018 this season" talk with the HC... Now this might be easier for me having had three others come through the program.. Some might think that I should not talk to the HC about his plans, but he's my son, he gets one shot, and he is very talented. If I felt the HC did not have my sons best interest at heart we would play elsewhere.
I think you are correct about the smaller schools. Last year we had 4 pitchers, including my son, that could keep the games close. This year we are down to 2 pitchers with 4 others that can throw strikes but will need more defense to keep glames close.
So are there other high schools nearby where you could bring your son if you felt your son's pitching health was in danger? And would your son have to wait a year because of UIL rules to get back on varsity at another school?
I will post an update after I have a "what are you planning for my son this season" talk with the HC.
Let me also say that I did not approach the coach. He told 2018 that he wanted to talk to me and that lead to me asking him about his plans for him. Also, I never talked about how much, where or when in regards to playing time etc.... We did talk about going back and forth from jv to varsity and how he sees that working...Again its my 4th son with this coach.
To answer your question about being able to attend other schools if I did not feel comfortable with the HC , it would be very easy to move schools and not sit out. If you have not been rostered on a varsity roster you can move anywhere in the county. our county has open enrollement... if you are rostered on a varsity roster, then you need to cahnge classification levels, or move one zone over from where you are curently zoned. Not to mention the private schools that allow scholarships. We live he a decent Metro area, plenty of schools. While needing to move is not the case here, I would not hesitate to do so to protect the health and well being of my child. For baseball reasons, academic reasons, bullying whatever the case might be. I find this no different the parent who moves their kid from public to private school. This would be a family decision and is none of the schools districts business.
I would also mention that 'PLAYING TIME' and "PARENTS GETTING THEIR WAY" is not the same as having a players "BEST INTEREST AT HEART"
I cannot remember one of my sons playing for a coach that threw him too much. One game in the state semi's , 2014 threw 110... and that's the worst of it...
Only a idiot would throw a middle school / high school pitcher too much... If fact I can only remember seeing abuse maybe 1-2 times in 500+ games. I really do not think if happens to often... NOW pitching without rest in between is likely to happen more often.
Originally Posted by AGDAD19:
…I really think someone needs to come up with a guideline of pluses and minuses based on number of pitches per inning and rest time between innings.
If you think it’s such an easy thing to do, why don’t you do it? I’ll go out on a limb and say you probably could do a pretty fair job of it, but how long would the list be? If it takes more than a glance to come up with an answer, who’s gonna use it?
Originally Posted by bacdorslider:
Let me also say that I did not approach the coach. He told 2018 that he wanted to talk to me and that lead to me asking him about his plans for him. Also, I never talked about how much, where or when in regards to playing time etc.... We did talk about going back and forth from jv to varsity and how he sees that working...Again its my 4th son with this coach.
To answer your question about being able to attend other schools if I did not feel comfortable with the HC , it would be very easy to move schools and not sit out. If you have not been rostered on a varsity roster you can move anywhere in the county. our county has open enrollement... if you are rostered on a varsity roster, then you need to cahnge classification levels, or move one zone over from where you are curently zoned. Not to mention the private schools that allow scholarships. We live he a decent Metro area, plenty of schools. While needing to move is not the case here, I would not hesitate to do so to protect the health and well being of my child. For baseball reasons, academic reasons, bullying whatever the case might be. I find this no different the parent who moves their kid from public to private school. This would be a family decision and is none of the schools districts business.
I would also mention that 'PLAYING TIME' and "PARENTS GETTING THEIR WAY" is not the same as having a players "BEST INTEREST AT HEART"
I cannot remember one of my sons playing for a coach that threw him too much. One game in the state semi's , 2014 threw 110... and that's the worst of it...
Only a idiot would throw a middle school / high school pitcher too much... If fact I can only remember seeing abuse maybe 1-2 times in 500+ games. I really do not think if happens to often... NOW pitching without rest in between is likely to happen more often.
I agree with you statement above about best interest at heart.
I'm looking through my notes that I kept on pitch count for almost every game for all pitchers for both sides. I'll list date for any game where a pitcher went over a 100 p.c.
2/27 - PC (us) - 102
3/11 - PC (us) - 103
3/19 - PC (them) - 136
3/25 - PC (us) - 120 - my son- (third inning he threw 43 pitches)
3/29 - PC (us) - 119, PC (them) - 119
4/1 - PC (them) - 107
4/8 - PC (us) - 120 - my son, (them) - 127 - total 8 innings for both pitchers
4/18 - PC (us) - 109
4/26 - PC (us) - 115
5/1 - PC (us) - 100
5/16 - PC (them) - 117
In American Legion that summer I don't recall but one time where a pitcher went over 100 pitches.
Originally Posted by Stats4Gnats:
Originally Posted by AGDAD19:
…I really think someone needs to come up with a guideline of pluses and minuses based on number of pitches per inning and rest time between innings.
If you think it’s such an easy thing to do, why don’t you do it? I’ll go out on a limb and say you probably could do a pretty fair job of it, but how long would the list be? If it takes more than a glance to come up with an answer, who’s gonna use it?
OK stats, I'll give it a crack.
Son's pitch count is 95. That pitch count can only be exceeded to complete a batter that he started at less than 92. If he completes a batter at 92 to 94 he's done. That minus 4 to start a batter always applies to the adjusted pitch count.
Pitch deductions:
Pitches per inning
21-25 minus 5
26-30 minus 10
> 30 minus 15
2 consecutive inn > 17 minus 5
Rest btw innings
< 7 min. minus 5
< 9 min. minus 3
Pitch additions:
Pitches per inning
< 9 plus 3
2 consecutive innings < 13 plus 5
Rest btw innings
> 13 min plus 5
2 consecutive inn > 10 min plus 3
An average high school 7 inning game is between 110-130 minutes long or roughly 16-18 minutes per inning or 8 to 9 minutes per half inning. If you don't want to use a watch or stopwatch to keep track of rest times, you can use the oppositions pitch count to determine the adds and subtractions.
Pitch deductions:
Pitches per inning
21-25 minus 5
26-30 minus 10
> 30 minus 15
2 consecutive inn > 17 minus 5
Rest btw innings based on opposition's pitch count
< 10 minus 5
< 15 minus 3
Pitch additions:
Pitches per inning
< 9 plus 3
2 consecutive innings < 13 plus 5
Rest btw innings based on opposition's pitch count
> 21 min plus 5
2 consecutive inn > 17 plus 3
So there's my basic guidelines. Go ahead and Statify me. I'm sure those such as ASMI or Andrews' group could come up with a guideline that would be understandable based on the research they've done. You may think this would be to complicated but it's a complex issue that should be addressed. If we are truly interested in protecting our pitchers arms, it shouldn't be written off and ignored. Maybe we need to find more intelligent people to be in charge.
Good stuff here. Just wanna add that at the high school level, Dialog with the HC about pitch count limits and shut down periods must always come from the parents. NEVER the player.This may be stating the obvious to some more experienced parents, but I didn't know this until a nationally recognized pitching coach at a local university here in Los Angeles told me. He said " You have to be the dick head here...not the player. The perception of the player always needs to be that he wants to throw.Keep a clicker and after the set amount pitches get close. Get a coaches attention and hold up 1 or 2 fingers to signal last batters"
I haven't yet had to be that demonstrative at a game, but I will if need be. HS HC is pretty arm health minded but I do initiate shut downs and I click the games and will not hesitate to shut him down or give notice to the coaching staff if need be
I'll take a stab. This is for HS with the thought that a coaching staff can reasonably keep track during the course of a game/week...
14-15 y.o. - 1st month of season max = 75, thereafter max = 84. No new hitter when max is reached. 30+ pitch inning = -5
16 y.o. + - 1st month max = 85, thereafter max = 94. 30+ pitch inning = -5.
1-30 pitches = 2 day rest
31-50 = 3 day rest
51-70 = 4 day rest
71+ = 5 day rest
This would protect as well as ensure that pitching depth is developed.
Originally Posted by AGDAD19:
Originally Posted by Stats4Gnats:
Originally Posted by AGDAD19
OK stats, I'll give it a crack.
Son's pitch count is 95. That pitch count can only be exceeded to complete a batter that he started at less than 92. If he completes a batter at 92 to 94 he's done. That minus 4 to start a batter always applies to the adjusted pitch count.
Pitch deductions:
Pitches per inning
21-25 minus 5
26-30 minus 10
> 30 minus 15
2 consecutive inn > 17 minus 5
Rest btw innings
< 7 min. minus 5
< 9 min. minus 3
Pitch additions:
Pitches per inning
< 9 plus 3
2 consecutive innings < 13 plus 5
Rest btw innings
> 13 min plus 5
2 consecutive inn > 10 min plus 3
An average high school 7 inning game is between 110-130 minutes long or roughly 16-18 minutes per inning or 8 to 9 minutes per half inning. If you don't want to use a watch or stopwatch to keep track of rest times, you can use the oppositions pitch count to determine the adds and subtractions.
Pitch deductions:
Pitches per inning
21-25 minus 5
26-30 minus 10
> 30 minus 15
2 consecutive inn > 17 minus 5
Rest btw innings based on opposition's pitch count
< 10 minus 5
< 15 minus 3
Pitch additions:
Pitches per inning
< 9 plus 3
2 consecutive innings < 13 plus 5
Rest btw innings based on opposition's pitch count
> 21 min plus 5
2 consecutive inn > 17 plus 3
So there's my basic guidelines. Go ahead and Statify me. I'm sure those such as ASMI or Andrews' group could come up with a guideline that would be understandable based on the research they've done. You may think this would be to complicated but it's a complex issue that should be addressed. If we are truly interested in protecting our pitchers arms, it shouldn't be written off and ignored. Maybe we need to find more intelligent people to be in charge.
I agree fully that young arms need to be protected - I agree even more that what you have proposed is way to complicated and in IMO over the top. I don't think it has anything do with how intelligent a coach is...there is certainly plenty of room to find a middle ground between overuse and the proposal you have made.
K.I.S.S.