Please don't be so arrogant

Parents should not be talking to umpires, period.

Umpires should not do stupid crap, and then parents won't feel the need to talk to them!

I've never seen parents approaching umpires to be successful. It's also not a good idea. In most cases the parent doesn't know more than the umpire. They only believe they do.

A coach familiar with an umpire can usually have a conversation out of sight as long as it's calm.

The Doctor posted:

Umpires should not do stupid crap, and then parents won't feel the need to talk to them!

Let me say this again. Parents should not be talking to umpires, period. It is not their place, nor does it change anything. 

Of course, if you also mean to say that I can approach parents and criticize their parenting, then it's okay. 

Matt13 posted:

The Doctor posted:

Umpires should not do stupid crap, and then parents won't feel the need to talk to them!

Let me say this again. Parents should not be talking to umpires, period. It is not their place, nor does it change anything. 

Of course, if you also mean to say that I can approach parents and criticize their parenting, then it's okay. 

 

 

You can say it as many times as you like, but umpires should not do stupid crap.

A bad call, or a missed call I can live with.

The Doctor posted:

Matt13 posted:

The Doctor posted:

Umpires should not do stupid crap, and then parents won't feel the need to talk to them!

Let me say this again. Parents should not be talking to umpires, period. It is not their place, nor does it change anything. 

Of course, if you also mean to say that I can approach parents and criticize their parenting, then it's okay. 

 

 

You can say it as many times as you like, but umpires should not do stupid crap.

A bad call, or a missed call I can live with.

You can live with stupid crap, too, unless you actually are going to die over a baseball game.

Sometimes a bad call will decide a game in the moment. But usually, if you're honest you can look back and say, "We could have won the game here, and here."

RJM posted:

Sometimes a bad call will decide a game in the moment. But usually, if you're honest you can look back and say, "We could have won the game here, and here."

There is a very well-known coach that spoke at our association banquet a few years back. He said (paraphrasing) that there are 54 outs in a baseball game and every one is an opportunity...and he has never seen a game where umpires have been responsible for the majority of lost opportunities.

Matt13 posted:

RJM posted:

Sometimes a bad call will decide a game in the moment. But usually, if you're honest you can look back and say, "We could have won the game here, and here."

There is a very well-known coach that spoke at our association banquet a few years back. He said (paraphrasing) that there are 54 outs in a baseball game and every one is an opportunity...and he has never seen a game where umpires have been responsible for the majority of lost opportunitie

Matt13 posted:

The Doctor posted:

Matt13 posted:

The Doctor posted:

Umpires should not do stupid crap, and then parents won't feel the need to talk to them!

Let me say this again. Parents should not be talking to umpires, period. It is not their place, nor does it change anything. 

Of course, if you also mean to say that I can approach parents and criticize their parenting, then it's okay. 

 

 

You can say it as many times as you like, but umpires should not do stupid crap.

A bad call, or a missed call I can live with.

You can live with stupid crap, too, unless you actually are going to die over a baseball game.

Umpires don't like it when a player, a coach or a parent does something foolish, why should anyone expect nothing but the same from an umpire.

?

The Doctor posted:

Matt13 posted:

RJM posted:

Sometimes a bad call will decide a game in the moment. But usually, if you're honest you can look back and say, "We could have won the game here, and here."

There is a very well-known coach that spoke at our association banquet a few years back. He said (paraphrasing) that there are 54 outs in a baseball game and every one is an opportunity...and he has never seen a game where umpires have been responsible for the majority of lost opportunitie

Matt13 posted:

The Doctor posted:

Matt13 posted:

The Doctor posted:

Umpires should not do stupid crap, and then parents won't feel the need to talk to them!

Let me say this again. Parents should not be talking to umpires, period. It is not their place, nor does it change anything. 

Of course, if you also mean to say that I can approach parents and criticize their parenting, then it's okay. 

 

 

You can say it as many times as you like, but umpires should not do stupid crap.

A bad call, or a missed call I can live with.

You can live with stupid crap, too, unless you actually are going to die over a baseball game.

Umpires don't like it when a player, a coach or a parent does something foolish, why should anyone expect nothing but the same from an umpire.

?

Absolutely false.

We don't address parents, period. We don't address mistakes players and coaches make in their jobs. That is not our place. Likewise, it is not a parent's place to address an umpire.

The catch-22 in this situation is that the parents who think it is their jobs to say something to an umpire are the same ones who can't handle being told a) that they're wrong, or b) that there may have been a mistake. The former turns into a pissing match, and the latter turns into a verbal haranguing regarding competence and/or integrity. Those parents who would be willing to listen and accept an explanation or a statement of potential error are the same ones that don't approach an umpire because they know it's not their role.

The Doctor posted:

Matt13 posted:

RJM posted:

Sometimes a bad call will decide a game in the moment. But usually, if you're honest you can look back and say, "We could have won the game here, and here."

There is a very well-known coach that spoke at our association banquet a few years back. He said (paraphrasing) that there are 54 outs in a baseball game and every one is an opportunity...and he has never seen a game where umpires have been responsible for the majority of lost opportunitie

Matt13 posted:

The Doctor posted:

Matt13 posted:

The Doctor posted:

Umpires should not do stupid crap, and then parents won't feel the need to talk to them!

Let me say this again. Parents should not be talking to umpires, period. It is not their place, nor does it change anything. 

Of course, if you also mean to say that I can approach parents and criticize their parenting, then it's okay. 

 

 

You can say it as many times as you like, but umpires should not do stupid crap.

A bad call, or a missed call I can live with.

You can live with stupid crap, too, unless you actually are going to die over a baseball game.

Umpires don't like it when a player, a coach or a parent does something foolish, why should anyone expect nothing but the same from an umpire.

?

The Doctor posted:

Matt13 posted:

RJM posted:

Sometimes a bad call will decide a game in the moment. But usually, if you're honest you can look back and say, "We could have won the game here, and here."

There is a very well-known coach that spoke at our association banquet a few years back. He said (paraphrasing) that there are 54 outs in a baseball game and every one is an opportunity...and he has never seen a game where umpires have been responsible for the majority of lost opportunitie

Matt13 posted:

The Doctor posted:

Matt13 posted:

The Doctor posted:

Umpires should not do stupid crap, and then parents won't feel the need to talk to them!

Let me say this again. Parents should not be talking to umpires, period. It is not their place, nor does it change anything. 

Of course, if you also mean to say that I can approach parents and criticize their parenting, then it's okay. 

 

 

You can say it as many times as you like, but umpires should not do stupid crap.

A bad call, or a missed call I can live with.

You can live with stupid crap, too, unless you actually are going to die over a baseball game.

Umpires don't like it when a player, a coach or a parent does something foolish, why should anyone expect nothing but the same from an umpire.

?

For a player (depending on age) and a coach there may be a right place and time to question an umpire. It depends on your history with umpires. It's not in public and in the umpires face. I've had umpires tell me they made mistakes. But they trusted me. The conversation was civil. They knew the conversation would not go back to players and parents.

A parent's responsibility at a game is to support the players and team. Players and coaches make mistakes. Why does anyone expect umpires to be perfect. I expect them to hustle and put forth their best effort. Sometimes umpires have bad days.

Speaking of bad days...one of my first D1 games was a noncon tilt between the home team, ranked #19 in the country at the time, and a much lesser opponent (to be respectful.) I was working outside of my normal conferences because we were looking to do some standardization among newer umpires at that level.

I missed two pitches in the top of the first, and my game went to hell in a hurry. The catcher started in on me, then his coach called him off and let me have it. We got through it, but without some pain for all concerned. I knew I missed those pitches. The catcher knew I missed them. Ray Charles knew I missed them. 

The regional coordinator and my D1 assignor were in attendance. We had a nice constructive conversation after the game (seriously, no sarcasm.) They saw what I was doing wrong, gave me advice on how to fix it, and I just got better from there. A week later, I was working major conference ball because they needed someone AND they wanted to see if I took their advice to heart.

While there isn't this type of support structure for umpires at the HS level, it highlights the importance of having an association resource your umpires. If this had happened in a HS game, the coach would have been able to voice his concerns to the association, and that umpire would have action taken, either through advice or reevaluation of his skills. Where I've seen the most complaints from parents are in areas where the schools assign umpires themselves, which means that you either get the guys that are local and available with no regard to competence, or you get the guys who won't bite the hand that feeds them (that doesn't mean they cheat or change calls, it means that they manage the game with that in the back of their minds.)

Under any of these, there is no place for a parent to be speaking to umpires. If the coach has that much of a concern, there are mechanisms within the game itself to resolve certain things (protest,) and even more so outside of it (filing a grievance.) With a solid association, the process works. We had a summer-league game replayed last year on the association's dime because of how badly one of our guys messed up a protest situation that turned horrific.

Matt13 posted:

Parents should not be talking to umpires, period.

Disagree, it was after the game and the parent was respectful. The parent's intention was to respect the game.  Any reasonable person is ok with missed calls for whatever reason, umpires are human and its part of the game.  This umpire did not have a respect for the game.  He didn't know the rule and his arrogance prevents him from calling the game correctly.

Have you noticed after games umpires disappear? If you blink you miss their exit. It is not the responsibility of umpires to answer to parents. If they did it would open up parental behavioral problems for the future. Matt explained who umpires answer to. It's the proper way to handle situations.

Even MLB umps blow calls and sometimes disagree on rules. Smart HS parents manage their expectations.  

RJM posted:

Have you noticed after games umpires disappear? If you blink you miss their exit. It is not the responsibility of umpires to answer to parents. If they did it would open up parental behavioral problems for the future. Matt explained who umpires answer to. It's the proper way to handle situations.

It is the umpire's responsibility to know the rules and respect the game.....This umpire did not know the rules and was arrogant about it.  This is the point of my post.  Respect the game.

To say that rules-errors by umps are evidence of not respecting the game is a non-starter, MD. 

It happens. At all levels. Especially the younger you go.

Most umps LOVE the game. 

He screwed up! Have you ever?

jp24 posted:

To say that rules-errors by umps are evidence of not respecting the game is a non-starter, MD. 

It happens. At all levels. Especially the younger you go.

Most umps LOVE the game. 

He screwed up! Have you ever?

I think his point is the response maybe should have been "Thanks.  I'll take a look when I get home."  

We have an umpire around here who makes up rules.  HS coaches are reluctant to call him out on it.  So he keeps on ticking.  

An umpiring blowing off a parent is not disrespecting the game. Umpires are not required to answer to parents. I've never seen one who did. If the coach has an issue with the umpire he can file a report. Maybe the parent in question should go to the coach and tell him how to do his job. Also, I've seen situations like this where the parents were sure they were right and they weren't.

The local umpires here are generally not great.  

Thats ok, it is high school ball.  When my son was playing in high school I would remind myself they were doing a better job than I would calling balls and strikes.  Since my son was a pitcher, my nephew a pitcher, my god son a pitcher....you get the idea....I would have the game over in 45 minutes.  Everything is a strike.  At times it would get frustrating.  But, I have never, not once in Little League, Babe Ruth, Travel Ball, High School, Pop Warner football, College Baseball....I have never seen an umpire/ref crew call a game to favor one team.  The closest was  football game where I went to a diner after the game and the coaches from the other team and one of the refs were having lunch....haha, but, the game was called square.  

As a parent the only time I have spoken to an umpire was to ask him if he wanted a water during hot days with double headers.  

"An umpiring blowing off a parent is not disrespecting the game."

"To say that rules-errors by umps are evidence of not respecting the game is a non-starter, MD."

I don't believe anyone inferred that in any way.  The umpire was too arrogant to ask for help and didn't even confer with the other ump.  In his mind he was right and no one was going to tell him otherwise.  Not even the rule book.  He had zero interest in the rules.  According to the ump's own words, he will not look at the rule book.  Unfortunately because of his arrogance, the next time that happens he will make the wrong call again.  That my friend is dis-respecting the game.

That call was terrible (are you sure he called hp? Maybe he just missed the swing and miss and thought the ball came fair from his bat) but he has no business discussing his calls with spectators ( yes parents are only spectators). It is the coaches job to discuss and maybe file a protest.

Dominik85 posted:

That call was terrible (are you sure he called hp? Maybe he just missed the swing and miss and thought the ball came fair from his bat) but he has no business discussing his calls with spectators ( yes parents are only spectators). It is the coaches job to discuss and maybe file a protest.

He called a third strike drop.  The ump announced his ruling to the stands and he acknowledged the batter was hit by pitch.  After ricocheting off the batters leg there was no way to throw him out at first.  Yes, the call was terrible and determined the outcome of the game.

mdschert posted:

Dominik85 posted:

That call was terrible (are you sure he called hp? Maybe he just missed the swing and miss and thought the ball came fair from his bat) but he has no business discussing his calls with spectators ( yes parents are only spectators). It is the coaches job to discuss and maybe file a protest.

He called a third strike drop.  The ump announced his ruling to the stands and he acknowledged the batter was hit by pitch.  After ricocheting off the batters leg there was no way to throw him out at first.  Yes, the call was terrible and determined the outcome of the game.

Once you let this go, you will feel better.  An ump had a rule wrong, the game ended.  It's healthy to move on.

This conversation is a prime example of why parents shouldn't talk to umpires - it generally doesn't go well and gets confusing real fast (turns into a game of who said what).

Back to the OP for a second...  IIUC - it's been claimed the umpire said the batter swung on 3rd strike and the ball hit his foot, but it was still a live ball, correct?  If so, why then did the coach not protest the game?  Rules 5-1-1(a) and 8-1-1(d) cover the situation. Why is no one blaming the coach here? That's not a judgement call - it's a rule and can be cause for protest.

<step up on the soapbox>

I would hope before you continue to deride umpires, remember that they are no different than yourself. You obviously made a choice to not become an umpire for a reason; otherwise, you'd be out there. I find more people that would never want to be out there - they don't want to get hit by the ball, they don't want to have some leather lung telling them they know nothing, they don't have the desire or willingness to take the time to become an umpire, etc. It's very easy to complain about a play, a pitch, a rule, etc., but typecasting umpires as doing stupid crap, disrespectful of the game, non rule knowing, etc. for making mistakes isn't fair either. I would think as the game progressed you may have had a hint along the way that some missed call or missed interpretation of a rule could have an effect on the outcome. If you didn't, then you may not have been paying that close attention or maybe all those other missed calls went your way so you were happy. The last missed call didn't go your way so you get upset. The majority of umpires at HS level aren't going pro - especially if they already have gray hair! Umpires do have to take a test and class in order to become an umpire - I'm a parent and am still looking for the damn parent test and class (OK my wife took a few pregnancy tests ;-)).  Doing a HS varsity game also means a few years of climbing the association ladder doing middle school and jv ball. There are certainly some associations where word of stuff like this gets back to the assignor really quickly and there are consequences. Who knows there could have been an evaluator in the stands that day too. Umpires also have bad days and bad games - it happens. You learn from it and move on. If you don't, you won't get better games. Like Matt pointed out - a lot depends on how the umpire gets those assignments and how good the association is, how they train, retrain, and work with their umpires. Missed rules are a pretty big violation, but it's not the end for your career as an umpire. However, if there isn't an association and the school directly hires some local umpire, then why not blame the school and system for allow the situation to happen?  Probably just easier to blame the umpire I guess.

<jump off the soapbox and run for cover ;-)>

mdschert posted:

Go44dad posted:

mdschert posted:

Dominik85 posted:

That call was terrible (are you sure he called hp? Maybe he just missed the swing and miss and thought the ball came fair from his bat) but he has no business discussing his calls with spectators ( yes parents are only spectators). It is the coaches job to discuss and maybe file a protest.

He called a third strike drop.  The ump announced his ruling to the stands and he acknowledged the batter was hit by pitch.  After ricocheting off the batters leg there was no way to throw him out at first.  Yes, the call was terrible and determined the outcome of the game.

Once you let this go, you will feel better.  An ump had a rule wrong, the game ended.  It's healthy to move on.

All is good, some on the post did not really understand including yourself that the issue was the ump's arrogance not the actual bad call.

 

Oh, I see.  Pride.

Nothing good can come from a parent addressing a (perceived) short-coming of an umpire in the parking lot after the game -- even when, as in this case, the parent is correct.

The umpire's arrogance is likely borne of experience in dealing with other parents who have addressed the umpire in the past.

There are (almost) always proper channels to get the message back to the umpire.

OK, how many people looked at this thread to see if they were the topic?

mdschert posted:

Two outs, third strike  LH batter gives full swing  and misses curveball with RH pitcher and then ball hits batters leg.  Ump calls live ball and batter makes it to first after ricocheting.  Bases loaded so caused the game winning run.  Umpire acknowledged hit by pitch.  Umpire was the only one who didn't know the rule.  As ump was leaving after the game a dad asked him nicely to please look up the rule when he got home.  He responded by saying he knows the rules and no need to look up.  This was a HS game in Tennessee.

1.  How did the ump call live ball?  Did he yell something to the effect "Ball is still live"?  I've never heard an umpire - good or bad - make the call the ball is still live.  

2.  Did you know if the pitcher had made a better pitch it wouldn't have hit the batter?

3.  Did you know if the batter hadn't swung then it would have been a clear cut case of HBP and your team would have lost?

So what do you expect to be the end result of this conversation between the umpire and parent?  Do you expect the umpire to say "hey you know what - you're right.  I did miss that call so let's have a redo.  Go help me get everyone back on the field".  I've been around sports my whole life and I have yet to see an official of any sport listen to a fan / parent let alone change their mind on a call based on what they say.

Look let it go and let it be a lesson to control the things you control.  People in the stands have NO RIGHT to say anything to an official after a game is over.  You pay your $5, $6, $7 to get into the game allows you to say some things from the stands but once that game is over your right to say ANYTHING is done.  You leave the stands to say anything during the game then you're gone.

Let me say this - as an AD I escort officials off the field / court for each game just so I can head off anything like this.  If a parent tries to have a conversation I'm stepping between them to stop it.  They continue then I'm going the next step and have police called to make sure they understand the game is over.  The last step is after they are arrested for disorderly conduct then our county board of education will take steps to ban them from any of our school campuses for 365 days.  That means if your child is a senior then you do not get to see them walk the stage.  Is it really worth not watching your kid play sports, do anything extracurricular and possibly graduate just so you can get your opinion in on something you have no control over?

Thankfully the most I've had to do is just warn people I was going to call the police.  That tends to calm people down.

"1.  How did the ump call live ball?  Did he yell something to the effect "Ball is still live"?  I've never heard an umpire - good or bad - make the call the ball is still live.  

2.  Did you know if the pitcher had made a better pitch it wouldn't have hit the batter?

3.  Did you know if the batter hadn't swung then it would have been a clear cut case of HBP and your team would have lost?"

1.  Didn't hear ump but his ruling was dropped third strike so it was a live ball.

2.  It was an awesome/nasty curve ball pitch to come inside that far for the batter to swing at it.

3.  Yes agree, IF the batter did not swing and it hit him it would be a HBP.  BUT - He did swing and he did completely miss and it did hit his leg.  What's your point here??

"Thankfully the most I've had to do is just warn people I was going to call the police.  That tends to calm people down."

You completely are wrong to assume this was the situation.  The parent was very respectful and I truly believe the parent was trying to help the ump so he wouldn't embarrass himself again in the future.  It was about respecting the game.  The only solace in this situation is to believe that the ump will find out about the rule so no other team will suffer because of his arrogance.

Again, this post was not about a wrong call.  It is about the arrogant attitude of the ump that will prevent him from making good calls in the future.

My head hurts....I'm trying to figure out what rule the ump missed according to the OP. Is there a rule that says the rules regarding a dropped third strike with two outs don't apply when the ball hits the batter after the swing and miss?

This thread will go on and on and on if people continue to attempt to explain reality to the OP. He doesn't want an explanation. He wants his way. I'm done. Some people have to learn the hard way. Let him approach a game official and get arrested.

Our high school didn't provide changing facilities for umpires. They parked in a corner of the parking lot and operated out of their trunks. I saw bad calls. I never saw a parent go anywhere near an umpire after a game.

I knew some of the umpires from coaching travel ball. I sometimes chatted with them at their cars before games. I would jokingly ask if they wanted me to act like an ignorant parent to warm them up.

RJM - please stop the hysteria.  Please stop the mis-characterization of what actually happened.  Please stop trampling on this post.

I read your post on what happened, MD.--what was the bad call/missed rule?

washrinserepeat posted:

I read your post on what happened, MD.--what was the bad call/missed rule?

After the missed swing and hitting the batter the ruling should have been dead ball out.  Instead the ump called dropped third strike and thus a live ball after ricocheting off the batters leg.

So, the ball hitting the batter negates the dropped third strike rule?

washrinserepeat posted:

So, the ball hitting the batter negates the dropped third strike rule?

Becomes a dead ball after hitting the batter 

What are you basing that on? And you didn't answer my question--you're saying the dropped third strike rule doesn't apply because the ball hit the batter?

If parents kept current with the rules they would be more informed. I'll bet most parents have never read the NFHS rule book. I used to hear parents yelling MLB rules they learned watching tv (not that announcers know the rule book) at high school umpires.

According to the 2016 update to NFHS baseball rules if an umpire is approached by a coach, player or fan after the game the only action to take is report the confrontation to proper authorities. The offending party will be subject to suspension from future games. When an umpire ignores a fan he's doing him a favor.

The umpire made the wrong call. The ball should be dead. Blame the coach for not protesting the game. It would be the proper avenue to resolve the situation. If the parent wants to confront someone it should be the coach. Not that he should.

The parent should ask his son to ask the coach why he didn't protest the game. Maybe he can help get his kid benched for being disrespectful to the coach.

The umpire wasn't being arrogant. He was following the rules. He avoided breaking the rules and risking being suspended. The parent opened himself up to suspension from attending.

Case closed.