Pomona or Amherst?

First I would ask are both recruiting you. If not, or one is and not the other, I would go with the one that is showing the love. If you asking which one to target. Target both. See if one is willing to walk you through addmission's. 

If both are recruiting you great job academically for that young man. 

Is this a choice your player faces currently? If so, big time congrats; those are both great schools and I really don't think he can go wrong whatever he chooses. 

Even though you've said to assume weather is not an issue, I can't help pointing out that SoCal's worst months are while school is out of session, while Western Massachusetts best months occur while school is out of session.  And weather obviously factors into when the kids can get onto the field.

One plus for P/P would be that all league opponents are within 75 miles of campus.  And your #1 rival, CMS, is right there on campus with you.  Less time traveling, more time for academics.  

Speaking of traveling,  how does he get there?  Depending on where you live Amherst is not an easy place to get to. Pomona has an airport within 10-15 minutes.

Pretty big cultural difference between east coast and west, differences that could strongly influence where he lives and who he might marry.  Which coast does your kid want?  Which school is the better match for his intended major?  That's what I'd be thinking about.

Son played in same league as Pomona LY and we live in the geographic center of the conference locations.  Some of my other HS players have recently played in the conference as well.  I have spent some time in Boston and Providence but not nearly as familiar with Amherst.  It would be helpful if you stated where you are coming from geographically and what type of environment your son is most comfortable in.

Pomona - big school, strong top-to-bottom D2, good baseball weather all the time, school has a somewhat academic slant but most of conference is California State schools with only a moderate academic slant.  Pomona is a perennial contender that always has top shelf pitching.  You probably don't have to worry about the 100 degree weather because that is only in the middle of summer.  Smog can be an issue.  Traffic and masses of people are a big issue.  People in the middle of SoCal tend to be typical big-city standoffish as a defense mechanism.  I'm not sure about Pomona but some of the other conference schools have been less than helpful in regards to class counseling, career counseling, class changes, etc.  GE classes are large student size and you likely won't get a tremendous amount of personalized help from the profs.  Typical big school stuff.  These D2 schools are not as well funded athletically as you would expect.  SoCal is great for a while if you are coming from back east or midwest but I can't express enough what a pain the traffic is.  You can't get anywhere in the without this headache.  We live out of the mess up in the Central Coast and love it but cringe when we have to go to or pass thru the LA basin.

Amherst - I'm doing much more guessing here but with the smaller school, I would think you will have much more small class sizes, better student/teacher ratio, better admin and counseling support, etc.  Also, I would guess the campus and surrounding areas would have a much more relaxed, small-city feel.  

Pomona plays a much beefier schedule - about 60 games vs about 35.  I think the overall level of play will be better.  The big city vs small city dynamic is one to take into strong consideration as well as logistics for your son making an occasional trip home from a cost standpoint.   Of course, the schooling should be the primary factor... 

Don't know either first hand.  But if that's the choice your or your son faces,  bully for you or him!  Two amazing colleges.  Amherst, as part of the five colleges area,  presents a wealth of academic and social opportunities beyond baseball.  I used to teach in that area and couldn't think more high of it as an academic community.  Pomona, as part of the Claremont Colleges, has a lot to offer too.    I doubt you could go wrong with either.  Both are high quality  D3 baseball programs, from what I gather too. 

 My only real two cents is that  I wouldn't totally discount the weather as a consideration, at least from a baseball perspective.  There are certain  advantages, baseball wise,  due to the weather.  The main point is that you will be play  in largely rain-free, completely snow free weather in Southern California.  That means a lot.   You get the practice outdoors all year round.  The Season starts earlier.  First games in early February in the SCIAC.   Spring trip in March out East with home games starting only in late March or April.   Weather can also wreak havoc with the schedule at cold weather schools.  depending of the severity of the winter.  And the schedule can, as a consequence, get awfully compressed.    In some ways that's an advantage for those schools.  They have to develop more arms and that tends to benefit them come play-off time.   A compressed schedule can be hard on a player, I would think, who is trying to balance academics and athletics.  

Maybe with ever increasing global warming and the winters becoming ever milder,   that won't be a big deal in coming years.     

But  baseball, especially D3 baseball,  can be marginally less of a grind in California than in cold weather climates.  You almost NEVER  have to play extra games in some weeks because weather cost you games in other weeks.  

  I'm not necessarily saying that this should be a HUGE  factor in the decision.  But it does make a difference.

 Even in the fall it makes a difference, especially for Freshman.  

At my son's school coach supervised fall ball doesn't officially start until mid to late October and goes through early November.  I imagine fall ball starts much earlier in cold climates.  The late start to Fall Ball gives frosh more time both to get acclimated to school and to become game ready for fall competition -- when they need to step on the field immediately ready to impress the coaches and win a spot. 

But again, these are considerations at the margins. 

cabbagedad posted:

Son played in same league as Pomona LY and we live in the geographic center of the conference locations.  Some of my other HS players have recently played in the conference as well.  I have spent some time in Boston and Providence but not nearly as familiar with Amherst.  It would be helpful if you stated where you are coming from geographically and what type of environment your son is most comfortable in.

Pomona - big school, strong top-to-bottom D2, good baseball weather all the time, school has a somewhat academic slant but most of conference is California State schools with only a moderate academic slant.  Pomona is a perennial contender that always has top shelf pitching.  You probably don't have to worry about the 100 degree weather because that is only in the middle of summer.  Smog can be an issue.  Traffic and masses of people are a big issue.  People in the middle of SoCal tend to be typical big-city standoffish as a defense mechanism.  I'm not sure about Pomona but some of the other conference schools have been less than helpful in regards to class counseling, career counseling, class changes, etc.  GE classes are large student size and you likely won't get a tremendous amount of personalized help from the profs.  Typical big school stuff.  These D2 schools are not as well funded athletically as you would expect.  SoCal is great for a while if you are coming from back east or midwest but I can't express enough what a pain the traffic is.  You can't get anywhere in the without this headache.  We live out of the mess up in the Central Coast and love it but cringe when we have to go to or pass thru the LA basin.

Amherst - I'm doing much more guessing here but with the smaller school, I would think you will have much more small class sizes, better student/teacher ratio, better admin and counseling support, etc.  Also, I would guess the campus and surrounding areas would have a much more relaxed, small-city feel.  

Pomona plays a much beefier schedule - about 60 games vs about 35.  I think the overall level of play will be better.  The big city vs small city dynamic is one to take into strong consideration as well as logistics for your son making an occasional trip home from a cost standpoint.   Of course, the schooling should be the primary factor... 

 

I assume the OP was talking about Pomona-Pitzer.  D3 to D3 comparison -- apples to apples -  rather than  Cal Poly Pomona.  Which, as you say, would be apples to oranges comparison. 

I assumed Pomona PItzer too.  Makes sense since Amherst is in the discussion.

haha...  oops.  Another Rosanna Rosanadana moment.  Never mind.

Admittedly minor point, but does your son bat left?  Short right field porch at PP, deep left field.

Bobby Aquayo's son is currently at Amherst. He's from CA. Maybe he will see the post and comment.

If grad school is a consideration the east coast offers more options. There is regional prejudices in grad school admissions based on what undergrad is attended. Or should I say the east coast elite colleges are prejudiced.

Thank you so much for the input.  Both schools are excellent, so it's fun (and very helpful) to hear your comments.  Really appreciate all who have contributed to the discussion.

One other thing to consider is where your son wants to live after he graduates. If it is in the West then I would suggest Pomona, if East then Amherst. While not always the case, but Kids tend to get jobs in the geographic area of their schools. 

Isn't this a good problem to have?  Love this topic and enjoying hearing the opinions. 

great problem!  Two awesome schools, both part of larger consortiums (though Pomona's partners are walking distance, and Amherst uses shuttles).

If the weather is important, then it's really important.  Location, aside from weather, could be an issue, too, as has been mentioned.

I recently checked the teams' records over the last five years:

Pomona-Pitzer 118-83

Amherst 131-62

I'm not about to interpret what that really means.  No idea what each school's strength of schedule is.

What I do find a bit puzzling is why, with only one div 3 conference in southern California, that the league doesn;t seem more competitive top to bottom.  The last three years  they've only had one or two teams in  each season's final top 25 list (and vote getters) for the D3 baseball poll (Cal Lutheran and Occidental last season or Cal Lut and LaVerne).  The conference has a broad range of academic strength, and has the best weather in the country.  Do the schools just beat each other up in conference?

Not sure how to respond with the terms being 'assuming the weather is not an issue'

Weather is a HUGE issue in college baseball and between those two schools. Pomona-Pitzer hands down being the winner by a landslide.

But, weather aside,

Same answer: Pomona-Pitzer

Academically, Rankings between these two schools are a virtual tie depending on what rankings you're looking at. Both are very prestigious schools. Two of the top learning institutions in the U.S. as was mentioned earlier, if you're getting love here it's a quality problem.

But, thats the thing. Where is the love? Gotta go where they love you. Number 1 in my experience. And don't forget these schools academically are far beyond the term 'highly selective'

There is a large, well secured, dark gothic like gate in front of the admissions building at both these schools and you ain't getting in without help from the baseball department. You'll need the infamous 'tip' from the baseball Coach. So, once again we're back to the love question. Do they love your son? More specifically, which school loves your son as a player? ( Love = tip , tip + application = ACCEPTANCE )

Also, lets take a moment and define this love thing. Love is not 'like'.   Love,  is the player has spoken to the HC several times. Specifically about GPA /Test scores. Has been invited on campus.

Like, is standardized non personal email, No questions about GPA/ Test scores, received email camp invites and maybe a handshake at an event....This is not love.

When an NCAA coach wants a player, they make their intentions crystal clear. There is no ambiguity.

With D3 ball at a high academic school the question your son needs to ask is : " Your school is difficult to get into, how can you help me with admissions? "

At that point the Coach will explain the admissions process and his influence on applications and recommend you apply 'early decision'

However, if the response is something like ' I can't really help you there, you'll need to just apply and be accepted on your own' then we're back to the love thing. And in this particular scenario......You DO NOT have it.

What did Lennon say?  'Love is all you need'.......Ok, now let me get back to baseball

Baseball, Pomona-Pitzer wins. Higher RPI , tough league. Immaculate facilities. And Coach Pericolosi is one of the most well respected Coaches in NCAA baseball. Very good recruiter. And picky. Coached summer ball on the cape for several years. Also, Pomona-Pitzer has had several players taken in the MLB draft

Bottom line: D3 ball on the West Coast and the South is better than D3 ball on the East Coast or Mid-West. It's the same with D1 ball.

Don't be sore at me for saying that. I'm not judging, I'm just reporting the data/facts.

My son was recruited by Frank Pericolosi. He watched my son for 3 years. Must have seen him play 10-15 times. Son did a campus visit. Loved it.

In the end. My son had several options. He committed to play D-1 baseball.

The only program that recruited him that he sort of felt bad about or second guessed his decision was Pomona- Pitzer. Even though it was a D3 vs D1 offers, son didn't care.  He was really impressed with the school, Coach Pericolosi and the campus/ facilities.

Very good points and posts.  I'm a big fan of the way you guys/girls are thinking. 

If it truly is a pick'em situation then I would favor the school that has the better reputation/history/"alumni Juice" in his major.  Sure college baseball is a great opportunity, and a lot of fun but eventually it does end.  Also, BOFs point about having an idea where he wants to live after graduation is an important one as well.  It is a great problem to have between these two schools.

BTW....My son loves the school he attended in Upstate NY.  He was very fortunate.  But, if there is one thing he could have changed with a magic wand....it would be the weather.  As a matter of fact, his first first job/company out of college was acquired by General Electric.  GE wanted him to move to Schenectedy in upstate NY.  He did NOT move to Schenectedy.  '-)  Just sayin' that figuring out what is important to you is the most important thing.  Quality of life, weather and other such things can be a huge determining factor for many people based on their lifestyle or where they grew up.  

JMO.

My son played football at Amherst not baseball. I have a 2018 who is targeting West Coast schools for baseball and Amherst is a possibility.  My son loved the experience. Western Mass is not the sun soaked California coast that is for sure, but it is very pretty up there. The school is small and intimate and in a town that is clustered nearby with other colleges. The majority of the students that attended there had multiple choices and CHOSE Amherst over other fine institutuions and some Ivy League schools. 

The admin is very much geared toward getting the students the best education and preparing them for grad school. I think the graduation rate there is something like 98% ( not sure but it is high). My experience is that he might have more student support for baseball at a West Coast School if that is important to him. 

The winter is cold there! The fall is very picturesque and pretty and the spring will be late and wont really be in full bloom until after finals. To fly in is a little difficult because the ariport is not close. 

My entire family enjoyed our experience as an Amherst family and as such my 2018 has Amherst on his list of schools as the only non D-1. He knows and loves the campus and the staff. 

Choose wisely...I was told that Amherst has had some kids drafted in the past....

Great discussion...  If the player has a strong interest in a finance, investment banking, or trading career, Amherst may be the best path.  Being planted on the East Coast, Amherst is more proximate to the big finance and investment firms.  There is stronger access to top internships within the financial industry.     

It does come down to priorities and how important baseball is to the player.  If the player wants to play, but they're using baseball to get into a top academic school, chances are, they're ok with a reduced playing schedule and maybe not playing summer college ball.  Or, playing summer ball the first few seasons, and then focusing on internships to prepare for their non baseball playing careers.

Pomona has a strong economics program, it just doesn't have the access to Wall Street like Amherst does.

I'd actually love to see this expanded a bit beyond Amherst...do any of those who have commented feel differently if you substituted say Williams or Bowdoin or MIddlebury or Tufts or Wesleyan?  I know I left off some of the other NESCAC schools but you all get the picture.  Is NESCAC really the "top D3 league" as we have heard from not just coaches but even non baseball playing tour guides?  Does Amherst with its MLB connections have more appeal than the other just as hard to get in schools?  Anyone?  Anyone?  Bueller?

I may be naive, but I think if you closed your eyes and threw a dart at a wall and it landed on any one of these schools, the issue would not be the education you get in the  classroom. It would be things like playing time,  do you like the coach, is it the right environment for you (city, suburb, small town, rural).  All the Nescac schools seem to have great connections to alumni of some sort or the other, and they all have the same weather issues (though some fields may handle the precipitation better than others).

And Nescac isn't the only game in town.  NEWMAC and Centennial, just to name two, also have stellar schools.

Good point about the blind dart game, and also agree about the Centennial conference.  JHU has a beautiful facility and is just  a top university.  Swarthmore has a very pretty, large, parklike campus and is consistently rated as a top ten LAC.  Haverford has been written up as "an Unlikely Pipeline to MLB" front office jobs.  

Middlebury... great school.  VERY cold up there.  But they do have a nice new indoor facility.   Tufts is another incredible school, and like Hopkins, a middle sized university, not a small LAC like most of these.  But we do have a user here who is pretty bitter about his son's experience there.  Back in the SCIAC, the Pomona question neglects to include Pomona's athletic partner, Pitzer, which is also a great school.  And there's another highly selective program in the SCIAC, Claremont Mudd Scripps, which includes two very highly selective schools that any kid would be lucky to attend, Claremont McKenna and Harvey Mudd.  While not quite as selective as those, Occidental is highly regarded as well.

Baseball aside, which college fits the players career interest and adaptable social environment?  Yes, all have great alumni and networks, but in which industries?  You can go to LinkedIn and punch in the college and see the people that pop up - what are their careers like?  This obviously works for kids that are already inclined for a particular industry.  If the kid changes his mind on his initial undergraduate degree, he'll still graduate from a top school in the country - "positioning".

Then package the weather and commuting distance to home.  I told my boys there has to be a major airport within an hour or so of the college you're interested in....  helps the selection process.

Wish I'd made the airport distance part of our equation.  We're in trouble.

Regarding P-P, the small Ontario International Airport (approx. 20 minutes from school) is a dream to get in and out of (versus LAX).

smokeminside posted:

Wish I'd made the airport distance part of our equation.  We're in trouble.

No worries, just roll out the private jet.  Tons of small airports with runways under 5,000 feet.

Assuming you have met with both coaches and have visited both schools and both coaches have said they will help son through admissions - what school feels right to you (and wife) and your son?  The weather is what it is (awesome in one place, horrible in the other), the academics are awesome at both, I assume he can play or he wouldn't be recruited at either, both are very expensive - so what school feels right?  There must be one.  

I write that after just going through the process from a slightly different perspective - we dropped son off at a centennial conference school yesterday that we were happy he got in too with the help of the coach.  Everything about it through yesterday felt right for him.  I wasn't even that emotional yesterday even though I really thought I would be (and I am slightly as I type this) because I felt like he was in a good place and he looked happy (and was tonight when he called).  If it comes down to a decision like that - those two schools - one must feel more right than the other.  Go with your gut.  

smokeminside posted:

 

....

 

What I do find a bit puzzling is why, with only one div 3 conference in southern California, that the league doesn;t seem more competitive top to bottom.  The last three years  they've only had one or two teams in  each season's final top 25 list (and vote getters) for the D3 baseball poll (Cal Lutheran and Occidental last season or Cal Lut and LaVerne).  The conference has a broad range of academic strength, and has the best weather in the country.  Do the schools just beat each other up in conference?....

I think the broad range of academic strengths is, in fact,  a major factor here.  My son goes to one of the more competitive  powerhouse schools in that conference.  It's not nearly as hard to get into as Pomona.  My kid would have never made it into Pomona, not in a million years.  The coach could have pushed and pushed all he wanted to.  I'm sure of that.  Though many of the guys on his team are stellar students,  many also seem to have similar profile to his.

 The school even has a "conditionally admitted"  status,  that it uses for kids who don't quite cut the mustard,  but have shown potential.  They are admitted and given a year to prove themselves, as it were.  The are assigned to a special advising program, required to meet with said advisor regularly,   required to take a reduced course load for a year, and required to achieve a certain GPA in order to continue for a second year.  If they don't pull it off, they are dropped.  If they do, they become regular students and are no longer on conditional status.  I gather that this admission route  is used  for some athletes.

 HC  made no bones during our visits and conversations with him  about the fact that he uses his less demanding admission standards to his advantage.   After learning that my son's grades were not top shelf on our first visit summer after junior year and being asked how much of a barrier that would be, he said to us point blank that although it would be much easier if the kid really kicked into high gear senior year and improved those grades,  he was still interested.  He was clear that one of his advantages over his rivals in the conference is that he can recruit a much wider range of students, academically,  than some (but not all) of his competitors can.

Not only does the school recruit a wider range of athletes, academically speaking, it also seems to recruit many, many more of them  than most of the schools in the conference.   Every year the school  brings in 30 or so recruits  -- and the RC told us that he used to bring in even more but had recently decided to go for quality over quantity.  He told us point blank when we dropped the kid off for school last year and met with him just to say high that in his first year in the job he brought in like  8 catchers to compete for an open catching spot.

Recruits include  not just  frosh, but also JC transfers, and  D1 and D2 drop downs.   On last year's varsity, for example,  8 out of 32 players were transfers,  including   2  D1 drop downs (Indiana,  UC Irvine) ,  2 D2 drop downs  (Morehouse,  Cal Poly Pomona), and 4 JC transfers.    Of the 8, 7 were major contributors on the varsity.  The program is brutally competitive.  Recruits are in a dog fight for roster spots and playing time from day 1.   Many are cut after fall ball.   Many who survive  -- especially the freshman, but even some upperclassmen  -- are assigned to the JV -- which means that they are basically being offered an extended tryout for the following year.   (At the end of the JV season,  they are either sent packing for the rest of the year or called up to practice with the varsity.    Most are sent packing and are told that there are no guarantees for the following year.  Then the following year, most returning JV players are simply cut.  Not all, but the vast majority will be.) 

Though the school grinds through a lot players, it pays off, in terms of the quality of the final product.   The school has had something like 33 guys drafted -- which is pretty good for a D3.  Nobody was drafted this past year -- but the RC told us in our meeting with him at the beginning of the year that he expected 3 guys to receive draft consideration.  But for all that, they have never  won a D3 World Series -- which is the perennial goal.  They really really thought they would do it last year,  but went 2 and out in the regional.  

Not every school in the conference is run this way.   The most selective schools -- which are extraordinarily selective --  couldn't possibly be.  But I do think the variance helps explain why a few schools tend to dominate the pack.  That  doesn't mean that schools like Pomona-Pitzer are NEVER in the hunt.  PP has actually won the conference in the not so distant past, I believe.   They were expected to be more competitive last year than they ended up being.  LOTS of talent on paper.   I think  it is unlikely that the more selective schools could ever dominate the conference over the long run.  But when the stars align,  every now and then,  they can have a real shot. 

StrainedOblique posted:

Also, lets take a moment and define this love thing. Love is not 'like'.   Love,  is the player has spoken to the HC several times. Specifically about GPA /Test scores. Has been invited on campus.

Like, is standardized non personal email, No questions about GPA/ Test scores, received email camp invites and maybe a handshake at an event....This is not love.

When an NCAA coach wants a player, they make their intentions crystal clear. There is no ambiguity.

With D3 ball at a high academic school the question your son needs to ask is : " Your school is difficult to get into, how can you help me with admissions? "

At that point the Coach will explain the admissions process and his influence on applications and recommend you apply 'early decision'

However, if the response is something like ' I can't really help you there, you'll need to just apply and be accepted on your own' then we're back to the love thing. And in this particular scenario......You DO NOT have it.

What did Lennon say?  'Love is all you need'.......Ok, now let me get back to baseball

LOVE this analysis. Best bit of advice for navigating the recruiting process I've seen yet.

Thank you.

Son played HS ball with a Pomona player who was starting 3B and #2 starting P. He hit a little bit his first year then became PO, middle relief. This year was SP at Pomona and Relief pitcher in Cape this summer. Not a top 10 HS student, but SOLID with high grades, and nice personality.

Twoboys posted:

I'd actually love to see this expanded a bit beyond Amherst...do any of those who have commented feel differently if you substituted say Williams or Bowdoin or MIddlebury or Tufts or Wesleyan?  I know I left off some of the other NESCAC schools but you all get the picture.  Is NESCAC really the "top D3 league" as we have heard from not just coaches but even non baseball playing tour guides?  Does Amherst with its MLB connections have more appeal than the other just as hard to get in schools?  Anyone?  Anyone?  Bueller?

I've worked on Wall Street for 20+ years and have frequently had a hand in sifting through resumes to see who "gets a look".  I'll say that Williams and Amherst tend to get Ivy treatment - a varsity athlete from any of those schools will get a long look.  Some others that I've come to respect greatly are Tufts and Babson - their grads seem programmed for success.  I've got very little frame of reference for the smaller West Coast schools.  I'm sure that there is East Coast bias at work here.  (I'll also add that the finance industry grows less attractive each year - strongly advising my own son to look elsewhere.)

I don't have any info on Amherst college itself but I'm familiar with the town. The airport is 45 to 50 minutes with out traffic and if their is traffic it would add another 10 or 15 minutes at most. Amherst really isn't like the majority of towns in New England. It's a college party town mainly because of Umass which is about 1-1/2 miles down the road. It's also one of the most political towns in the country. This doesn't bother some but can be an issue to others.

As others have said weather is a huge factor here. This past winter was the most mild I could ever remember but the spring was pretty cold. Games weren't cancelled because of it but it was miserable April until June. Two years ago was the worst winter I can remember and most of the local D3's that didn't have turf fields only got 3 weeks to get in their schedules (excluding trip to Florida).