The way I understand it...
Yadi
.60 release 86mph velocity +- 1.7 pop time
.70 release 81mph velocity +- 1.85?
.70 release 75mph velocity +- 1.95 2.0 ?
we have 1/10 gain or loss for every 5mph loss or gain
the release gain needs a number to finish the equation, I do not have..
We have seen many 4-seam fastballs lose approximately 7 MPH by the time they reach the plate. That is over about 55' distance.
Stands to reason a catcher's 127 foot throw would lose considerable velocity by the time it reaches the target. Actually I would think the farther the ball travels it loses speed at a more rapid pace.
So in order to get a true time that represents velocity, it would have to include the overall velocity or average over 127'. Obviously this is something less than using the release velocity.
Maybe someone with a physics background can help here. If the throw is 85 at release and 70 at the target (127') how long did that throw take to get there? Vrs. just using 85 MPH over the whole distance? I think that will give us a better idea of the importance or unimportance of velocity for a catcher.
For me, I'll still be looking for the big arm and the quick release. Then among that group find out who the best over all catchers are. The quickest guy or strongest arm doesn't always turn out to be the best catching prospect.
Stands to reason a catcher's 127 foot throw would lose considerable velocity by the time it reaches the target. Actually I would think the farther the ball travels it loses speed at a more rapid pace.
So in order to get a true time that represents velocity, it would have to include the overall velocity or average over 127'. Obviously this is something less than using the release velocity.
Maybe someone with a physics background can help here. If the throw is 85 at release and 70 at the target (127') how long did that throw take to get there? Vrs. just using 85 MPH over the whole distance? I think that will give us a better idea of the importance or unimportance of velocity for a catcher.
For me, I'll still be looking for the big arm and the quick release. Then among that group find out who the best over all catchers are. The quickest guy or strongest arm doesn't always turn out to be the best catching prospect.
quote:Maybe someone with a physics background can help here. If the throw is 85 at release and 70 at the target (127') how long did that throw take to get there?
this request needs a release time unless you are just measuring from hand release to bag.
1 mph per 7 Feet a general rule., takes 81mph to take the arch completely out of a ball to second another.
Why MPH gains are diminishing returns, takes 5 to gain one and still lose some, release gains are 1 to 1 to 1.5 to 1, best place to improve.
OK PG I took a stab at this. First my assumptions are that at these velocities the every thing is linear. This is not 100% the case but should be close enough for this discussion.
So if we assume the ball looses velocity at 7mph per 55 ft then a ball would loose 16.16 MPH from catcher release to 2nd base. We can therefore assume that on average the ball travels at a velocity of 8MPH less than the release velocity of a catcher.
So for an 85 MPH release the average vel would be 77MPH = 113 ft/sec
For 70 MPH then it would be 62 MPH.= 91 ft/sec
So for these two velocities you would get average travel time of:
85MPH release = 1.12secs
70MPH release = 1.40secs
Difference = 0.29 ~ 0.3 sec for a 15MPH difference in release velocity.
I did a 10MPH difference just to give you a even number to keep in the back of your mind.
75MPH release = 1.29 sec
So this is a 0.17 secs per 10MPH so an easy number to remember would be about 0.2secs for every 10MPH or 0.3 secs for 15MPH.
So for catchers with the same catch to release time and one throws 10MPH harder he would be 0.2 secs faster, which is significant.
Hope this helps.
So if we assume the ball looses velocity at 7mph per 55 ft then a ball would loose 16.16 MPH from catcher release to 2nd base. We can therefore assume that on average the ball travels at a velocity of 8MPH less than the release velocity of a catcher.
So for an 85 MPH release the average vel would be 77MPH = 113 ft/sec
For 70 MPH then it would be 62 MPH.= 91 ft/sec
So for these two velocities you would get average travel time of:
85MPH release = 1.12secs
70MPH release = 1.40secs
Difference = 0.29 ~ 0.3 sec for a 15MPH difference in release velocity.
I did a 10MPH difference just to give you a even number to keep in the back of your mind.
75MPH release = 1.29 sec
So this is a 0.17 secs per 10MPH so an easy number to remember would be about 0.2secs for every 10MPH or 0.3 secs for 15MPH.
So for catchers with the same catch to release time and one throws 10MPH harder he would be 0.2 secs faster, which is significant.
Hope this helps.
Guys,
Lots of great info. As we factor it down, it becomes apparent throwing velocity is a key ingredient in low pop times.Build arm strength & throw with intent. That "nice & easy just get rid of it fast approach" will generally not cut it. I prefer the "turn it loose mother goose" approach. Yes I know that accuracy will suffer,but the get rid of it quick approach generally does not produce the player's best glove to glove times.Accurate & late is still a stolen base & 2.20 glove to glove times does not excite anyone. While aggressive let it fly throwing is usually faster & can always be geared down.It's a lot easier to say "whoa than giddy up." The nice an easy may produce a 2.20 & be accurate while the throw with intent may produce a 1.98 & be inaccurate.For me, it's a lot easier to get to 2.0 and accurate from the throw with intent approach.Let's not forget about rotation to insure "in line carry." Distance magnifies poor rotation. The ball that sinks or tails will lose more velocity as a result of the movement plus force is not being applied from directly behind the ball. Six to twelve rotation is imperative. Use stripped balls &/or throw down the foul line to monitor rotation.
The body organizes itself based on the goal. If the goal is a 2.00 glove to glove time chances are the player will have to acellerate his arm to achieve it.Become a good aggressive thrower 1st & then focus on accuracy. It's like our young pitchers. We teach them how to become a pitcher before they become a good thrower. We hand Johnny the ball & tell him to throw it nice & easy & just hit his target. As Johnny matures he has engrained those nice & easy mechanics that produce a 77 mph fastball & we wonder why.The same thing happens to our catchers when we don't let them empty the tank early in the process.( I'm not talking about early in the laerning process for very young & inexperienced throwers.)
JW
Lots of great info. As we factor it down, it becomes apparent throwing velocity is a key ingredient in low pop times.Build arm strength & throw with intent. That "nice & easy just get rid of it fast approach" will generally not cut it. I prefer the "turn it loose mother goose" approach. Yes I know that accuracy will suffer,but the get rid of it quick approach generally does not produce the player's best glove to glove times.Accurate & late is still a stolen base & 2.20 glove to glove times does not excite anyone. While aggressive let it fly throwing is usually faster & can always be geared down.It's a lot easier to say "whoa than giddy up." The nice an easy may produce a 2.20 & be accurate while the throw with intent may produce a 1.98 & be inaccurate.For me, it's a lot easier to get to 2.0 and accurate from the throw with intent approach.Let's not forget about rotation to insure "in line carry." Distance magnifies poor rotation. The ball that sinks or tails will lose more velocity as a result of the movement plus force is not being applied from directly behind the ball. Six to twelve rotation is imperative. Use stripped balls &/or throw down the foul line to monitor rotation.
The body organizes itself based on the goal. If the goal is a 2.00 glove to glove time chances are the player will have to acellerate his arm to achieve it.Become a good aggressive thrower 1st & then focus on accuracy. It's like our young pitchers. We teach them how to become a pitcher before they become a good thrower. We hand Johnny the ball & tell him to throw it nice & easy & just hit his target. As Johnny matures he has engrained those nice & easy mechanics that produce a 77 mph fastball & we wonder why.The same thing happens to our catchers when we don't let them empty the tank early in the process.( I'm not talking about early in the laerning process for very young & inexperienced throwers.)
JW
Yes lots of good information.
My point is this, release time is equal to velocity time, in throw to second. The guy throwing to second ten mile a hour faster takes 2. tenths more to release than the ten MPH slower guy, same pop, to just doesn't have the aesthetics.
What happens at the lessor levels is the arm wins no matter what and you get catching candidates promoted or kicked to the curb base solely on the mecca of arm.
and the big arm guy that's not accurate is like dating a beautiful woman with a chastity belt...
it looks good but your not going to get any. Lots of time on the bench can you tell, sorry.
I am not on that big arm alter, to me out is out, and Tom Glavine can pitch for me any-day. :]
My point is this, release time is equal to velocity time, in throw to second. The guy throwing to second ten mile a hour faster takes 2. tenths more to release than the ten MPH slower guy, same pop, to just doesn't have the aesthetics.
What happens at the lessor levels is the arm wins no matter what and you get catching candidates promoted or kicked to the curb base solely on the mecca of arm.
and the big arm guy that's not accurate is like dating a beautiful woman with a chastity belt...
it looks good but your not going to get any. Lots of time on the bench can you tell, sorry.
I am not on that big arm alter, to me out is out, and Tom Glavine can pitch for me any-day. :]
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
We have seen many 4-seam fastballs lose approximately 7 MPH by the time they reach the plate. That is over about 55' distance.
Stands to reason a catcher's 127 foot throw would lose considerable velocity by the time it reaches the target. Actually I would think the farther the ball travels it loses speed at a more rapid pace.
So in order to get a true time that represents velocity, it would have to include the overall velocity or average over 127'. Obviously this is something less than using the release velocity.
Maybe someone with a physics background can help here. If the throw is 85 at release and 70 at the target (127') how long did that throw take to get there? Vrs. just using 85 MPH over the whole distance? I think that will give us a better idea of the importance or unimportance of velocity for a catcher.
For me, I'll still be looking for the big arm and the quick release. Then among that group find out who the best over all catchers are. The quickest guy or strongest arm doesn't always turn out to be the best catching prospect.
PG - In my son's latest PG analysis, it stated that his throw had "carry through the bag". Is that saying that the throw was maintaining a good velocity to (and through)the target? Or is it referring to something else? Thanks
You can not make the assumption that a kid throwing 10MPH faster takes 0.2 secs longer to do it.
Let me guess your son is a catcher, with a weak arm, who is accurate?
We see the same arguments in the pitching forum about how young kids can get outs with curveballs and changeups. College pitching coaches only care about velocity, they will teach them to pitch. There is a growing philosophy in pitching circles about teaching pitchers to throw hard with intent. Jerry just pointed out what sounds like the same thing in catching.
Learn to throw quick and hard and the college coaches will fix the accuracy. (oh yeah and be a left handed power hitter as well
)
Cheers back to pitching and the really wild guys in the hitting forum….
Let me guess your son is a catcher, with a weak arm, who is accurate?
We see the same arguments in the pitching forum about how young kids can get outs with curveballs and changeups. College pitching coaches only care about velocity, they will teach them to pitch. There is a growing philosophy in pitching circles about teaching pitchers to throw hard with intent. Jerry just pointed out what sounds like the same thing in catching.
Learn to throw quick and hard and the college coaches will fix the accuracy. (oh yeah and be a left handed power hitter as well
) Cheers back to pitching and the really wild guys in the hitting forum….
geez... its numbers in an equation. Faster releases slower mph = faster mph slower release. it's a simple thing and BOF till now didn't evolve shots, good for you for being the first.
I got two stories...
I had one of these big arm no accuracy guys until my shortstop broke his leg tracking down one of his bad throws up the first base line. Guy didn't catch any more, that was a personal thing and I guess still not over it.
another.. had a friend, minor league pitcher, told me he never thought about or checked runners until the catcher hit him in the arse with a throw to second and told him too. I want that catcher how do you measure that?
I got two stories...
I had one of these big arm no accuracy guys until my shortstop broke his leg tracking down one of his bad throws up the first base line. Guy didn't catch any more, that was a personal thing and I guess still not over it.
another.. had a friend, minor league pitcher, told me he never thought about or checked runners until the catcher hit him in the arse with a throw to second and told him too. I want that catcher how do you measure that?
What is amazing to this point also is there been one comment to date on results actually getting some one out that was by TR hit.
contrary to conscious it's about getting a runner out a second. All you can ask of a catcher is to get the ball accurately and quickly to second around 2.0.
Any thing more than that, ie you have to do at 85mph is a reflection of the time we are in, and will change when enough best candidate are not found, like in the 70's when they demand just give me a guy with speed we can teach them to hit. That worked out.
A better test would involve accuracy and a release measurement, along with the current MPH testing. They changed the bat testing why is this a suggestion out of line... it's not.
Done here, enjoyed it.
contrary to conscious it's about getting a runner out a second. All you can ask of a catcher is to get the ball accurately and quickly to second around 2.0.
Any thing more than that, ie you have to do at 85mph is a reflection of the time we are in, and will change when enough best candidate are not found, like in the 70's when they demand just give me a guy with speed we can teach them to hit. That worked out.
A better test would involve accuracy and a release measurement, along with the current MPH testing. They changed the bat testing why is this a suggestion out of line... it's not.
Done here, enjoyed it.
My point in this discussion is simply this, velocity (arm strength) is very important. Of course it's not the only important thing. All by itself, arm strength is not enough. Release time is very important, it's not the only important thing. Accuracy is very important, but only if the ball gets there on time.
Stolen bases are often bang, bang situations. If I have two catchers, both with the same release times and all else equal... The one with the best arm will standout.
I believe young catchers should work on improving arm strength. In fact, they should work on every phase of the game that can make them a better player.
Thanks to all for this very interesting discussion.
Stolen bases are often bang, bang situations. If I have two catchers, both with the same release times and all else equal... The one with the best arm will standout.
I believe young catchers should work on improving arm strength. In fact, they should work on every phase of the game that can make them a better player.
Thanks to all for this very interesting discussion.
Just having some fun showme…..because on the pitching side it always seems like many dads of younger kids come here enamored with “junk” when they should be focused on velocity development. They keep going on and on about how their little Johnny is striking out kids and not hurting his arm throwing CB’s.
Jerry pointed out quite nicely what a young catcher should be focused on. No better person than him to know what their focus should be.
Anyway throwing a baseball at high velocity can be done quickly if you accelerate your arm faster, it does not have to take longer
There are some nice “rule of thumb” numbers here I think.
Cheers!
Jerry pointed out quite nicely what a young catcher should be focused on. No better person than him to know what their focus should be.
Anyway throwing a baseball at high velocity can be done quickly if you accelerate your arm faster, it does not have to take longer
There are some nice “rule of thumb” numbers here I think.
Cheers!
BOF,
I think for catchers sometimes the velocity vs. winding up trade doesn't pay off. There's a point where quickness is more important and that's why you'll see a catcher with a big arm throwing in the mid 80's to second base when he's probably got a 90+ arm.
All the rest still holds. A catcher needs to develop the ability to throw quickly and hard and to be able to repeat that motion. Once you posit the mechanics necessary for a quick release then one would expect a higher velocity throw to also be a slightly quicker release throw.
For the other poster, I think that carry through the bag is probably a result of backspin given equal velocities. One can throw on a bit more of a line at a given velocity with more backspin. That's an attempt at making a technical explanation for something that is really just more of a feel.
I think for catchers sometimes the velocity vs. winding up trade doesn't pay off. There's a point where quickness is more important and that's why you'll see a catcher with a big arm throwing in the mid 80's to second base when he's probably got a 90+ arm.
All the rest still holds. A catcher needs to develop the ability to throw quickly and hard and to be able to repeat that motion. Once you posit the mechanics necessary for a quick release then one would expect a higher velocity throw to also be a slightly quicker release throw.
For the other poster, I think that carry through the bag is probably a result of backspin given equal velocities. One can throw on a bit more of a line at a given velocity with more backspin. That's an attempt at making a technical explanation for something that is really just more of a feel.
Got it CADad.
PG,
For a catcher for the next game I'll take either one. Projecting into the future I'll take the one with the stronger arm because it is probably going to be easier to improve his mechanics to speed up his release than to improve the other catcher's arm speed. Of course, I'd really take the one who was the better hitter regardless.
For a catcher for the next game I'll take either one. Projecting into the future I'll take the one with the stronger arm because it is probably going to be easier to improve his mechanics to speed up his release than to improve the other catcher's arm speed. Of course, I'd really take the one who was the better hitter regardless.
5 pages worth of statistics and numbers, release speeds and physics, great arguments on all sides of the page, concepts and ideas from coaches, trainers and players and in the end it comes down to how good a "hitter the catcher is"....Awesome.
LakeSide,
Sounds like you have some issues with the reality of it.
Sounds like you have some issues with the reality of it.
Jerry W, outstanding post.
Nope, just new to the concept.
Hitting and arm strength are what my son is working on this winter.
Hitting and arm strength are what my son is working on this winter.
I don't even think any of this is true anyway. There are a million other factors that a catcher needs. I am a high school catcher from Crete Monee HS in Illinois and my lowest velocity from the crouch is 76 mph, my lowest pop time is a 1.85, By Roosevelt university. anyways any catcher reading this blog shouldn't worry about his pop time. he should be more focused on calling a game, framing and making sure he isn't chasing the ball to the back stop every other pitch. Pop time doesn't even matter if you have a slow release pitcher. Pop time means practically nothing compared to all other aspects of catching it is the last thing a SMART college coach looks for in a defensive catcher.
Johnny,
No doubt about it, there are many things that are important.
However, telling catchers to not be concerned with throwing or pop times and that those things don't matter, is not good advice. Ask any SMART college coach or MLB scout.
Let us know if you ever see a catcher drafted or playing at a top college program that can't throw or with a real slow pop time.
Throwing is not everything, but you are limited as a catcher if throwing is a weakness. BTW, it appears that you have that skill.
No doubt about it, there are many things that are important.
However, telling catchers to not be concerned with throwing or pop times and that those things don't matter, is not good advice. Ask any SMART college coach or MLB scout.
Let us know if you ever see a catcher drafted or playing at a top college program that can't throw or with a real slow pop time.
Throwing is not everything, but you are limited as a catcher if throwing is a weakness. BTW, it appears that you have that skill.
While we ALL use glove to glove for our pop time (I am including myself here), a MUCH better indicator that would settle the discussion is glove to tag time. That way a 2.0 is a 2.0 whether it got there in 1.8 but off the mark or in 2.0 on the money. I always tell myself I am going to refer to this more, but with the gold standard being glove to glove, I feel like I have to know what my catcher's time is using that measurement! Put me down in the yea column on the vote to change to glove to tag being the standard!!
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
..Let us know if you ever see a catcher drafted or playing at a top college program that can't throw or with a real slow pop time...
I have. They are called firstbasemen.
.... and then, a FAN.quote:Originally posted by redbird5:quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
..Let us know if you ever see a catcher drafted or playing at a top college program that can't throw or with a real slow pop time...
I have. They are called firstbasemen.
GED10DaD
if you can record consistent +/-2.0 in game situation you have enough arm strength/footwork to play past high school. what is talked about on this thread is very true. in a showcase tryout you can cheat by moving in front of the plate before the pitch gets there (like you do on a pitchout in the other batter's box). played with a kid that threw 1.95 to 2.0 between innings and never broke 2.1 in game situation. he is playing juco ball now so that is enough to move on if you can get it close.
