Pop Time & Velo

jas critical as the stopwatch times,if not more so is accuracy

Like TR said, accuracy is important. Assuming his throws are close to the bag you're on the right road. He'll grow a lot the next couple years.

I'm in your neighborhood. PM me if you want. I have a catcher son that just graduated from a neighboring school and will be playing at the next level. I might be able to help.

He's pretty accurate during games. At practice, he tends not to be as accurate. When there is a runner needing to be thrown out, if the pitcher gives him a chance, there isn't many he can't throw out. Stanwood, you have a PM. Thanks.

The pop times and velocity are probably in the Top 50 in his class in the country.

I am a pop time/velocity first, accuracy second, guy.

Here is my thinking FWIW.

If you have a runner that steals 2B in 3.5 seconds and a catcher who throws 2.3 to 2B. You need a pitcher who can get it to the plate in less than 1.2 seconds to have a chance on a "perfect" throw. The accuracy is important, very important, in this case.

With the same 3.5 runner and 1.2 pitcher if your catcher pops 1.9 the throw only needs to be somewhere close.

Now if I have a 3.4 runner, my 2.3 catcher can be right on the money accurate every throw and he will never throw out the runner unless the runner slips or gets a bad jump. In 10 steal attempts this catcher will be 0 for 10.

On the other hand the 1.9 catcher with far less accuracy actually will throw this runner out once in awhile. Even the worst accuracy guys will be on the money once in awhile. And he doesn't need to be right on the bag with the throw because he gets it there almost a half second quicker. In 10 attempts this catcher will throw out some runners.

Obviously the best catchers have a quick release, strong arm AND they are accurate. But accuracy only counts when the ball gets there in time. That said, the secret is to improve in all areas.

gametimer, Those pop times and velocity are very good.

I had no idea they were that good. Not a baseball guy other than I love to watch him play and have learned to love the game. Don't tell him that as he needs to continue to think he needs to keep working his tail off. Thanks for the input everyone. Sounds like he's on the right track for what he wants to do which is play at the next level, whatever that might be. He plays with the DBAT Mustangs so he should get plenty of exposure there.

While I humbly defer to the expertise that PG has acquired over the years, i find it hard to buy in 100% to the suggestion that accuracy is not a priority.

True that speed of throw gets it there sooner but its also true that an inaccurate throw adds a lot of time to the tag because it takes a lot longer to move a gloved ball to the tag area than it would for an accurately thrown ball to do the same. And that is without considering the advantage it gives a runner on the angle to take to the bag when he sees where the fielder is lining up his glove to take an inaccurately thrown ball.

Now as to OPs son having those good numbers without formal training, you may not want to slow him down by having him think about a trainers words. Just let him fire away for now. Just sayin....

Just firing away without any training or thought given to technique is a prescription for becoming "unfixable" at some point if the current technique is not good.

Actually, accuracy is very important. However if you can't get it there in time, accuracy becomes unimportant. If you can get it there in time, accuracy is very important. Too slow is simply too slow, no matter how accurate the throw is.

quote:

Originally posted by CollegeParentNoMore:
Just firing away without any training or thought given to technique is a prescription for becoming "unfixable" at some point if the current technique is not good.

But if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

W/O seeing the competition or the technique its obviously hard to critique.

Generally speaking from observing my son and his friends, if a player isn't always working to improve his game there won't be any ability to fix it later as he will be done playing.

As the player progress they compete for playing time/opportunities with equally/more talented players, so while his pop times may seem good now, it doesn't mean squat if the competition is better. Good throwing technique etc. takes a long time to get right, if ever at all.

quote:

Originally posted by gametimer:
My son attended his first college camp this week and recorded pop times of 1.95, 2.01 and 2.04 with velo's of 76, 78 & 77.

Gametimer,

Do the pop-times and velo's correlate with eachother? If so, those are indeed well-above average showcase times for a catcher your son's age.

Couple of questions about the timing. Was there a batter in the box during the throw to prevent cheating up early? Was there a runner running? It sounds like your son has a very good arm for his age out of the crouch. Which can make it easier to cheat on a showcase throw without a batter in the box and create an unrealistic pop-time that is virtually impossible to duplicate in a live-game situation.

One thing I will point out that bodes well for your son's mechanics, having not ever seen him, is that the fastest time to 2B was on the slowest velocity throw (if both were in fact timed at the same time). We are only talking about 1 MPH, however, but when dealing with hundredths of a second, it means a lot, especially since there is a 1-tenth difference between the fastest throw and the slowest. What that tells me is that he most likely has a pretty quick release when he focuses on just getting the ball into the air. When he reaches back for something extra, it costs him valuable time. All of this is a bit speculative, however, having not actually seen the throws.

All-in-all, a catcher who can let a ball go out of his crouch in the upper 70's should be throwing around 2.00 with decent mechanics. And even if he was able to cheat out of his crouch early, a showcase throw of under 2.0 is impressive at 16.

Top 50 in his class??? Are you sure? I have been clocked at 1.92 (class of 2015). Does that mean I'm the best catcher in my class?

If you throw the ball to the outfield, does the pop time end as it flies over 2B? Or when it hits the fence?

LE1996- There is sooooo much more to catching than just pop time. Therefore throwing a 1.92 would only prove that you have good catch and throw skills, not that you are the best catcher in your class in the country.

quote:

I have been clocked at 1.92 (class of 2015).

Just curious, but where did you hear that you threw this time? Was it at a showcase, tryout, practice throw that your coach or dad timed?

There are many important variables when considering the validity of those times. Did it happen in a game, with a batter in the box, with a coach timing the throw who knows what they are doing?...That is the only way that throw means much in the wide scheme of things. I can tell you that as a coach who travels around the country training catchers, there are far more "showcase" throws under 2.0 than realistic ones. And most people end up making a false assumption that college coaches can't tell the difference. Certainly not trying to come across skeptical, but having put a watch on some 100-150 catchers from High School to NCAA Div. 1 ball in the past year during game situations or realistic throwing conditions, I can say that the number of true sub-2.0 throws is much much lower than what many people think. I can honestly say that I can count the number of actual game throws under 2.0 on both hands and still have fingers left.

If your throw was in a game with a competent coach holding the watch, then it most assuredly says that you have a very good throw to second base, but there are so many more factors that would go into judging your overall ability behind the plate and the throw itself. Receiving, Blocking, Etc...

One of the most important things to watch for in a catcher actually pertains to the throw. Are the mechanics you use creating an efficient throwing motion or will they compromise your arm's health in the next few years.

I can unfortunately speak from personal experience, as I had an extremely strong arm when I played (85+ out of the crouch by the time I was 18) but the flawed throwing motion I used caused my arm to fall apart far too early during my playing career. Because I was able to throw well at an early age, nobody ever tried to change my mechanics. Trust me when I say that I wish someone would have ignored the times on the watch and said something.

Just something to consider when evaluating yourself or comparing your throw to other catchers around the country, as it is certainly one of the harder things to do as an athlete.

Nice post Jay..... listen to this guy GTIME, he knows what he's talking about! GED10DaD

I saw a local kid who had a PG measured pop time of 1.9. When I looked at the video, he was out of the crouch and just about in front of the plate when he caught the ball. A catcher has 2 jobs when a runner is running 1. LET THE UMPIRE SEE THE PITCH. 2. Then explode out of a crouch and throw.

Another knock against showcases and clinics is when they prove time and again that they care more about collecting fees than they do about proper form.

Of course when you receive a ball hugging the plate and already in a throwing stance you will have great POP.

And the smarter coaches there will discount you severely.

Gotta agree with PG Staff. Most aspects of catching can be taught and improved. Velocity is the one thing that cannot be significantly improved.

When son was a senior in HS I asked the scouting director of the St. Louis Cardinals at a pre draft workout "Why are you so high on my son as a catcher when it's obvious he lacks catching skills?" His reply (regarding his arm strength): "What your son lacks, we can teach.... What you son has, no one can teach".
Fungo

Great post Fungo and so true. PG said the same thing really in his post.

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
Gotta agree with PG Staff. Most aspects of catching can be taught and improved. Velocity is the one thing that cannot be significantly improved.

Certainly there are gifted athletes out there, and I believe we all have a "genetic ceiling", some higher than others. However, I would have to respectfully disagree with the idea that significant improvements in velocity cannot be made or taught.

Mechanically speaking, I think we can agree that improvements in the general throwing motion will impact overall velocity in a positive manner. Most people underestimate those improvements and the effect that they can have on velocity and the release efficiency of a catcher.

I've been fortunate to witness the results of three Summer/Fall's worth of an arm strengthening program up here in New England. Two years ago a local catcher went from 73mph to 83mph max velocity, and over 80mph out of his crouch with improvements to just his throwing motion (not throwing mechanics out of his crouch). The average gains throughout the program were around 5 MPH. Just this past year a player went from 83-84mph last year to over 90mph this Fall. After watching video of the throws, one could most certainly tell it was most definitely the result of an adjustment in the throwing motion.

In my opinion, that is very significant. Especially in the context of catching, considering that for every 5mph gain, a catcher will see a 1/10 of a second drop on their throws to second base purely as a result of the velocity increase. That is assuming the improvement in arm action did literally nothing to speed up the release, which is not likely.

Fungo, I would have to guess that your son probably has a terrific throwing motion if a scout singled out that particular skill-set, but IMHO I would argue that what your son does naturally can in fact be taught, and gains in velocity can be significant.

The ability to improve velocity depends alot upon the physical maturity of the player and addressing mechanical issues. Many times the player has the velocity but due to poor mechanics and/or physical conditioning top velocity is rarly achieved so he "looks" slow. i.e. my son is in consistantly high 80's, in HS he consistantly threw around 80-83 with occasional throws over 85 or so. Many would say he picked up a few mph while I think he just became more consistant.

quote:

I would argue that what your son does naturally can in fact be taught, and gains in velocity can be significant.

Sure, gains in velocity CAN be significant. No argument there.... The question remains WHY? Taught or God given???? ANYONE that throws 90 plus has has significant gains in velocity, but for every player that has had significant gains in velocity there are dozens that were taught and DIDN'T have significant gains in velocity..... Male babies aren't born throwing 95MPH..... They picked it up somewhere.

It is possible to teach someone to throw 95 mph. However, it's only possible if that person is "capable" of throwing 95 mph. Unfortunately not many are "capable" of doing it and most who can, came by it fairly "naturally".

It's much easier to master "technique" while working on improving arm strength as much as possible. In many cases arm strength will never reach acceptable standards for certain levels.

If it were any other way professional catchers would be a dime a dozen, at least defensively.

That said, it is possible to improve both technique and arm strength. But the sad truth is... if God didn't give you a good enough arm, your chances of being a catcher at a real high level are very slim, even if you can throw it on the bag every time.

I understand that there are excellent catching coaches who claim other things are more important. I wouldn't call myself an excellent catching coach, but I agree with those who are... However IMO the other things are most important among the pool of candidates. To be in the pool of candidates you have to have acceptable arm strength.

Is the catcher with the strongest/best arm the best catcher? No, not for sure, because all the other things become more important. However, does anyone know of a Major League catcher with a weak arm?

To me, one of the prettiest things I can see on a baseball field is the catcher that has a true cannon! While all things can be improved, that is the most natural thing. When they convert a position player to a catcher, no one is thinking about the guy with a weak arm. Often it's the infielder with a strong arm or even a pitcher. Sometimes catchers even become pitchers because they have real good arms.

The fact is if you want to play at a high level you are going to need to be capable of making accurate throws very quickly. It's hard to say that one is more important than the other (arm strength vs. accuracy) because both of them are very important. Here's an analogy: which is more important to have in a car an accelerator pedal, or a brake pedal? You need both for the car to do what you want it to do. In our case, we want to throw out base runners...we need to be able to make accurate throws very quickly.

With that said, I do think that amateur players should spend the majority of their time focusing on making accurate throws because that is an area that can ALWAYS be improved. I'm also a big advocate of long tossing to develop a stronger arm so I'm not ignoring it, just choosing to place more emphasis on accuracy.

I'm fortunate that I get to work with college athletes. Most of the players I coach are probably already very close to their ceiling in terms of velocity and arm strength. So, do I want them to improve their arm strength? Yes. But, my guys probably benefit more from focusing on improving accuracy so thats what I put the most emphasis on.

If I coached younger athletes, who were much further away from reaching their arm strength ceiling, I might place more emphasis on gaining arm strength and I don't think that is a bad approach for youth coaches to take.

I'll take a guy that throws a 2.0 on the bag every time ALL DAY LONG! The fact is though, that those guys aren't all over the place...they're hard to find! I've said it before and I'll say it again...every time I get a recruiting email about a player, letter in the mail, or I talk to a players parents you can guarantee that I'm told the catcher throws a "1.95". When I put my stopwatch on them the number is usually MUCH different...especially if it's a game situation with a live pitcher and hitter, and the catcher can't cheat because he doesn't know which pitch the runner is stealing on.

If your goal is to catch in HS you might be able to get away with having one or the other. But if you want to catch at a high level college or play professionally, you better have a strong arm and be able to make good throws!

And I'll go ahead and say it for the record...I'm sure if you look hard enough you could quote me as saying "accuracy is more important than arm strength" somewhere.

I've posted this several times in various threads on this board before, but I will do it again: I have personally timed dozens of in-game MLB throw-downs using frame-by-frame video at 60 FPS, and almost ALL of them are right around 2.0.

There was one and one only below 1.9.

I don't doubt that high school kids can throw a 1.9-ish throw in a simulated situation (my son did) but if major league catchers are throwing 2.0's in games, then I take the hundreds of high schoolers with "official" sub-2.0 times with a grain of salt as big as second base.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
I have personally timed dozens of in-game MLB throw-downs using frame-by-frame video at 60 FPS, and almost ALL of them are right around 2.0

How have you slowed it down frame by frame to 60fps? TV is broadcast at 24fps.

Of course, there is a big difference between pop times in drills and pop times in games. It's not always possible to get every catcher during a game. In-game pitches with in-game hitters are much different than workout throws. I don't know a single baseball coach or scout who would think that the workout pop times will be the same in actual games. there are differences, not the least involving the throw/pitch. But most kids who can pop in the 1.80 range in workouts without a lot of cheating are the most likely to throw in-game around 2.00.

2.00 on the bag works nearly everytime unless the pitcher is slow to the plate. That is the reason 2.00 is the magic number.

In order to accurately evaluate a catcher the in game throws are far more important. But the workout times help separate which catchers are most likely to be the best in game throwers.

Over the years this has proven to be fairly accurate. If we look at the current Major League catchers that we timed in high school... Nearly, if not all, had excellent pop times and showed good arm strength.

Cheating is a concern, but I think it is overblown to an extent. The biggest cheaters are usually not among the best catchers.

Here's a question... How much time can be cut out of the pop time if someone cheats? You can only cheat so much without it looking foolish. Nobody is out there catching the ball in front of homeplate. Some of the cheating young kids do, actually is counter productive to their pop time IMO.

To me, bottom line... If I'm looking for a prospect, throwing ability and quickness are far more important than accuracy! Accuracy then becomes the most important thing among the group who has the arm and quickness. Arm strength (by itself) is a valuable tool. Accuracy (by itself) only counts if it is combined with other things.

That said, how outstanding catching coaches go about getting the desired results is something they know much more about than I do. If it's accuracy first, and that works, that's great.

I think we all understand the importance of accuracy. It is vitally important! I'm just referring to how it works in scouting. If a scout gets a call from one of his contacts and the word is "This guy has a great arm" that means much more than "This guy is very accurate". Now if the word is "This guy has a great arm and every throw is on the money" That's even more interesting.

Here is the guy everyone projects to be the first catcher selected in next year's draft. There's even an old video of him throwing from behind the plate when he was a freshman or sophomore in HS. Scroll down and all his poptimes (workout) will be listed.
Top Catching Prospect

PGStaff,

I think you basically hit the nail on the head when you said that coaching and scouting are two separate things.

When I am coaching my catchers I talk more about accuracy, and making quality throws. However, when I am recruiting catchers you better believe that I want a guy that has a great arm!

I don't disagree with anything that you've said and I think it's important that people can clearly understand the differences of working with catchers that are already on the team, and selecting catchers to be on the team in the future. Hopefully, I have selected catchers with good arms, and I can make them more accurate throwers!

Catching101,

I'm sure we would agree on lots of stuff.

Also, I'm sure you know much more about developing catchers than I do!

This of course is all moot if the catcher isn't batting his weight. Most programs are looking at offensive qualities over defensive. I know because son worked so hard on defense, not a great hitter, but has good pop and velocity. Hitting will always trump defense.

quote:

How have you slowed it down frame by frame to 60fps? TV is broadcast at 24fps.

I am pretty sure this is wrong. On digital TV, hitting the frame advance button, there are 60 fps.

Each program is different and the level of the players in the program will be different and teams needs will vary. There is a level of defensive ability that must be there. Your not going to catch even if you can mash if you can not catch at a certain level. You may DH. You may go to 1b or corner OF but your not going to catch unless you meet that criteria. What that criteria is will be based the coaching staff. What the other options on the team are. Etc etc.

I am not speaking for Catching101 but I would be willing to bet that he is not going to put a defensive liability behind the plate simply for his stick. There are other ways to get that bat in the line up without hurting the team in a critical position like the catcher is. What about it Catching101?

Thats not to say that a better defensive catcher might not play behind another kid. But that other kid is good enough defensively to get the job done and brings a great bat to the line up. You can bet if that better offensive catcher starts hurting the team behind the plate his bat will be found in a different spot in the line up.

Rob,

I know that all movies and standard TV is broadcast at 24fps (its actually 23.9something to be exact). I would be curious for you to test your tv out. Next time you see a football or basketball game on tv (there is a running clock on the screen) would you mind testing that. I'd be curious if you can press the frame advance button 60 times before :01 is taken off the game clock. Maybe you can, it will be interesting to see?

Coach May,

There is certainly a give and take...I'm going to play the player that gives me the best chance to win. USUALLY, that is the better defensive catcher. I'm also a fan of having more than one full time catcher so that one catcher doesn't catch every game of the season. An ideal playing time split would probably be 60/40 or 70/30. If you catch one player all year long he is going to be physically exhausted by the end of the season and not as productive during the postseason.

But, yes, I am going to generally give the nod the best defensive catcher...as long as he is not atrocious offensively!

The DH can play into this as well. If you have a really good defensive catcher but really weak offensively then it's possible to hit for him with a DH. We did this two years ago when we had a stud pitcher in the high 80's and low 90's. We tried to use one of our better athletes / hitters as a catcher but he just couldn't handle the catching part. There wasn't anywhere else open on the field so we put a freshman behind the plate and the other guy hit for him. Rode them to the state championship appearance.

Obviously we were lucky it worked out that way but you can get creative with the lineup using a DH.

Lots of great points and good information from some very knowledgable people. But the one point I want to make, and PGStaff brought it up, is that I believe there are far more athletes capable of generating those higher velocity's than actually do. If you look at video of throws at the highest level of the game, their movements are much different than what is routinely taught to those trying to reach those higher levels.

What catcher's at that level do naturally, can be taught. Does that mean a catcher whose body is only capable of generating 80 MPH will all of the sudden be able to throw 85 MPH? No it does not. But there are far more catchers capable of achieving a better, faster, more efficient throw to second base than many coaches give credit to. Do I think accuracy is any less important? Absolutely not. But I think it is important to understand that not only can we improve accuracy with instruction, but also the overall efficiency related to velocity in the throw.

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:
The pop times and velocity are probably in the Top 50 in his class in the country.

These are fine numbers, but rank nowhere close to top in his class. If that were the case, I'd have a first rounder on my hands.