"Pop Time" vs accuracy

Maybe if the catcher is a rising freshman or sophomore, that has room to improve arm strength + quickness in order to get to a sub 2.0 in game.  Otherwise, probably not.

Here's the thing.  How/when was the "pop" time measured.  I constantly see showcase video where the catcher is "cheating" to get that great pop time.  In a real game you can't really reach out and up without getting blasted by a bat. 

 

I think most people would be looking for both speed and accuracy.  With the 2.2 kid, I would be looking for something that can be improved to get that last 0.2+ seconds.  With the 2.0 kid, I would be looking at whether I could improve his mechanics to become more accurate.  With both, I'd be looking at how well they hit.   

Originally Posted by Golfman25:

Here's the thing.  How/when was the "pop" time measured.  I constantly see showcase video where the catcher is "cheating" to get that great pop time.  In a real game you can't really reach out and up without getting blasted by a bat. 

 

GRRRREEEAAATTTT observation! Most coaches only count times clocked in practices because it’s a real PITA waiting for specific things in a game. I understand that, but there’s a very often a world of difference between what happens in an uncontrolled game and what happens in a controlled setting.

Originally Posted by PA2016Backstopdad:

So, which is more important? If you have two kids with equal blocking, receiving, game presence etc but  1) 2.20 but puts it on the bag 95% of the time 2) 2.00 with 30% to the bag (that sentence was for you Stats4nats).

 

Nicely done. That allowed everyone to make an informed decision.

All things equal, I'll take the 2.0 guy. I think the threat of the lower number discourages the running game. The base coach may be clocking him in between innings, and he's looking at the number more so than the target. The first time a guy attempts a steal, he has a 30% chance of an accurate throw. If he gets him, or even if the ball gets there in time, they are much more cautious about running. If they have guys that can beat a 2.2 pop by 0.1, they get the bag every time. An oversimplification just to choose one answer.

Yes, except......How inaccurate is inaccurate?  If he misses 70% of the time, what percentage of those are to CF or the gaps, or to put another way, how many steals of second does he turn into a runner on third (albeit quickly, because he has a quick pop time and all ).

The answer is easy...BOTH.  

 

In your scenario, the 2.2 most likely will not get recruited by a D-1 because in their equation, a 2.2 doesn't play no matter how accurate he is.  Is there a place for a 2.2?  Yes, but at a lower level of baseball.

True, I qualify athletically and academically for DII and DIII colleges. I have a 2.2 pop time, going into my junior year. Trying to improve and get better still.

Wesley,

 

That is awesome to hear!  I LOVE the "trying to improve and get better" part.  That is what this game is all about, whether you are a player or a coach.  I'd love to see some video of you throwing to 2B.  DM me if you have some video and I will give you my email address.

Originally Posted by MidAtlanticDad:

…The base coach may be clocking him in between innings, and he's looking at the number more so than the target….

 

Not being a coach, that statement intrigues me. To me it implies that all catchers are going all out on their throw down after the pitcher gets his warm-ups. While admittedly I sometimes watch the catcher’s throw down, I’ve never thought for a second that was indicative of his accuracy or arm strength, and never once considered the pop-2-pop time.

 

So how “common” is it that anyone would time that and then use it in the running game plan? I can see timing the pitcher to the plate with a runner on, but pop-2-pop?

Originally Posted by redbird5:

The answer is easy...BOTH.  

 

In your scenario, the 2.2 most likely will not get recruited by a D-1 because in their equation, a 2.2 doesn't play no matter how accurate he is.  Is there a place for a 2.2?  Yes, but at a lower level of baseball.

 

Forget major DI or getting drafted. You’re saying a catcher with an accurate throw and a 2.2 pop-2-pop will very likely draw enough attention to get ‘’ship offers?

Stats, 

 

Nowhere in my post did I say a 2.2 pop would get a scholarship at even the lowest levels of D-1.  Since D3 does not give athletic scholarships, I'm not sure where the confusion lies In my post. 

 

As as for throw downs in between innings, many amateur catchers go full speed to impress a coach or scout who may be the so there is a high degree of accuracy in the times. It is VERY common for base coaches to time those throws. 

Son's Legion coach often clocks catcher's pop time as his style has an aggressive running game. From what I have observed over the years the more accurate pop time (best one shown from catchers) is not found between innings, but during infield/outfield.

Originally Posted by redbird5:

Nowhere in my post did I say a 2.2 pop would get a scholarship at even the lowest levels of D-1.  Since D3 does not give athletic scholarships, I'm not sure where the confusion lies In my post. 

 

OK, then let’s throw DIs out completely. Aren’t DII, NAIA, and JUCOs lower levels than DI?

 

My confusion came because whether you intended to or not, you did what almost everyone does when they get into this kind of discussion, and gave the impression there isn’t any “worthy” college baseball below DI. The OP only mentioned “college coaches” in general, and that includes other organizations than NCAA DI and DII.

 

As as for throw downs in between innings, many amateur catchers go full speed to impress a coach or scout who may be the so there is a high degree of accuracy in the times. It is VERY common for base coaches to time those throws. 

 

I have no doubt that SOME amateur catchers will try to impress someone on a throw down after warm-ups. I don’t know that I’d characterize it as MANY, but that’s just me. My GUESS is, there are just as many catchers who won’t go full bore to keep the power of the gun a question mark to the opposition as long as possible.

 

To be honest, it’s not something I’ve paid a great deal of attention to, but now I’ll be lookin’ at those base coaches, and when I see one with a watch, I see if he’s timing the catcher.

Originally Posted by Ripken Fan:

Son's Legion coach often clocks catcher's pop time as his style has an aggressive running game. From what I have observed over the years the more accurate pop time (best one shown from catchers) is not found between innings, but during infield/outfield.

 

Maybe a lot of my confusion is coming from what’s meant by “pop time”. To me it means the time from the 1^st “pop”, the pitch hitting the catcher’s mitt, until the 2^nd “pop”, when it hits the receiving fielder’s glove. With that as a definition, how does a catcher get a pop time during IF/OF when there’s no pitch?

No, I mention D1 because they offer scholarships, which is what the OP mentioned. I don't have many D2 programs near me so I didn't speak on them. I don't discount other levels.  I qualified it by addressing D1 catchers.  In as plain English as possible, a 2.2 pop time doesn't play in Division 1 baseball.  In my neck of the woods, it doesn't play in D3 baseball.  It's not impressive. 

I gave you my experience regarding catchers in between innings and you discounted it. I am telling you what the majority of good catchers do - usually the D1 level kids.  If they aren't committed to a college, they are trying to find a way to impress a coach.  This may be the only time to do so.  If they are committed, they MAY hold something back but not usually.  It's considered practice for when a runner is actually running in the game.

I do have video, here is a link to my video from Baseball Factory.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdHr6JAOE2s

Originally Posted by redbird5:

No, I mention D1 because they offer scholarships, which is what the OP mentioned. I don't have many D2 programs near me so I didn't speak on them. I don't discount other levels.  I qualified it by addressing D1 catchers.  In as plain English as possible, a 2.2 pop time doesn't play in Division 1 baseball.  In my neck of the woods, it doesn't play in D3 baseball.  It's not impressive. 

I don’t mean to belabor the subject, but the OP never mentioned a scholarship. Here’s all he said about college. I may be wrong but if I were a college coach I would take the 2.20 / 95%.

 

I certainly believe what you’re saying about what baseball is like in your area, but the board covers ALL areas, and I assume they all don’t have the same standards. Here locally, we don’t have any DIIs or DIII’s that I know of, but we have a boatload of JUCOs and a few NAIA schools as well.

I gave you my experience regarding catchers in between innings and you discounted it. I am telling you what the majority of good catchers do - usually the D1 level kids.  If they aren't committed to a college, they are trying to find a way to impress a coach.  This may be the only time to do so.  If they are committed, they MAY hold something back but not usually.  It's considered practice for when a runner is actually running in the game.

 

I didn’t discount it. I discounted how often it happens. Had you qualified it by saying you were talking only about the DI level kids, I would have taken it differently.

 

If you’re somehow insulted, I apologize because I wasn’t trying to be insulting at all. It’s just that when there are many here who ASSUME things when the poster isn’t very specific and it causes problems. So I was trying to only deal with what was in black and white without trying to assume anything or to try to fill in the blanks based on my experience unless I made it clear that’s what I was doing. I still screw up  once in a while, but I’ve learned to try to be as precise as possible none-the-less.

As for the original question of 2.2 or 2.0 it's hard to say.  I agree with whoever said can I get the 2.2 down to 2.0?  If so then I may go with him or go with the 2.0 until he does get to 2.0.  I also agree with whoever asked how inaccurate is inaccurate?  If he's head high on the throw then I'll probably go with the 2.0 and hope my MIF can get the tag down.  If he's best friends with the CF then I'm going with the 2.0.  Hard question to truly answer.

 

As for the in between innings - I'm with redbird5 and it happens a lot.  I tell my guys to always act like that throw down is game action.  First - you never know who's watching (I'm talking HS level but I think it applies to all levels of baseball below professional).  A college coach / scout may be at your game watching someone else but if you can show you got the arm he takes notice.  Plus, you may not have anybody try to steal on you and this is your only chance to show what you got.  Second - if my guy has a gun I want him showing it off because if it can shut down the running game before anyone gets on base then I'm happy.

 

Now me as the defensive coach - if I see that gun behind the plate then I'm probably going to take a chance early as possible to see if it's legit or not.  If it's legit then the running game may be out that day.  Or maybe I need to be more careful in picking pitches to run on like a curveball count.  If his mechanics are terrible I may be more aggressive or if I see the pitcher does a terrible job holding runners then it can come back into play.

 

All these things to factor get in our head during pre-game IF / OF or first inning throw down when we see the kid throw.

Given a period of time to make corrections, I'll take the 2.0 catcher and fix his mechanics. Maybe he then throws even harder. The 2.2 catcher may have mechanical issues that prevent him from being a 2.0. But it's an unknown. Net: I'd rather improve accuracy than attempt to increase velocity.

Originally Posted by coach2709:…As for the in between innings - I'm with redbird5 and it happens a lot.  I tell my guys to always act like that throw down is game action.  First - you never know who's watching (I'm talking HS level but I think it applies to all levels of baseball below professional).  A college coach / scout may be at your game watching someone else but if you can show you got the arm he takes notice.  Plus, you may not have anybody try to steal on you and this is your only chance to show what you got.  Second - if my guy has a gun I want him showing it off because if it can shut down the running game before anyone gets on base then I'm happy….

 

Maybe I’m just not looking at the right things at the right time, or maybe I just don’t see quality catchers, but I honestly don’t remember seeing what you’re describing happen. I’ve see a lot of catchers try to show off an arm, but can’t remember them looking like they’re showing off a pop-2-pop.

 

Just goes to show that we all have different experiences and different perception of those experiences. That’s why it’s a great game.

My experience this year at the HS level:  the good teams have the stop watch out and are watching the catcher.  If you "scare" them up front, they are a little hesitant. 

 

Just this weekend, we played a very good team.  They decided they weren't going to steal on the catcher, but rather the pitcher.  They where watching is leg lift.  Well, one of their fastest kid went on a slide step and was out by 2 steps - great pop and throw by the catch as well.  After that, they basically stopped trying. 

Ball can come from an infielder, such as fungo hit to second who throws to first, first baseman throws to catcher who throw back to second (who is "covering" base).

Not really a POP time, catcher has to be down in a crouch to receive a pitch for a POP to be timed.

Catchers will show there POPs in between innings, especially the first to help deter a running game. If throwing is not his strength then nother so much. BTW POPs are combination of not just a strong arm but also quick feet a good transfer and release. 

This topic is near and dear to my 2017 catcher. He worked hard on his throwing mechanics, footwork, and velocity all winter. His dynamic combins poptimes were lacklaster (2.15) but his accuracy was very good. He was not 100% prepared and that's on him. I noticed that many of the catchers with sub-2.0 pops were cheating like crazy on the set-up and accuracy was pure crap. Just fired them, many 1-hopping and 5-6' or more from plate. I've since learned and come to appreciate that approach works and should be emulated. That's what my son will do next time. But as for games, he needs to work on his consistency in terms of transfers and footwork but when he's "on" they are on the money and most teams only steal on the pitcher or balls in the dirt. And yes, I think most catchers try to ensure the first first few between inning throw-downs are full game speed (+) because they know they are being watched closely.

I have seen the same thing.  No way could they replicate that in a game.  So are you suggesting to "cheat" as well to get the good time?  Wouldn't a coach just check the video and see that the pop time was bogus? 

Yep.  I'll take a catcher with good pop time and somewhat inaccurate throws over a catcher with a slower pop time and accurate throws.  It won't matter if the throw is accurate, but late. 

 

A catcher with a good pop time (2.0 or less) and a hard throw is more intimidating than a slower catcher.  Makes the opposing team think twice about stealing.

 

Early in his "career" my son was primarily a catcher.  Even with his good pop time and bullet throws, teams would challenge him early in a game.  After a few attempts, they usually gave up or became more selective on their steal attempts.

 

His teammate (and good friend) who was also a catcher had about the same pop time but his throws weren't as hard was often challenged and once they saw the throw downs would continue to challenge him.

 

 

 

Originally Posted by FoxDad:

…His teammate (and good friend) who was also a catcher had about the same pop time but his throws weren't as hard was often challenged and once they saw the throw downs would continue to challenge him.

 

I’m not understanding how one player could throw much harder than another with the same pop time.

 

 

 

Its very easy, Arm strength is only part of the equation of POP times. I mentioned earlier, quick feet, transfer and release are also important.

Is there a rule that your good throwing catcher must do his best and provide an accurate pop time for the opposing 3b coach? Does the 3b coach say thank you to the catcher for providing this accurate pop time? Are there any other examples of when an opponent cooperates with the opposing coach to provide vital information? Are there any teams that do not have their catcher throw to 2b to conclude a pitcher's warmups between innings? Or how about throwing into a target positioned in short center field to provide an inaccurate number as to not cooperate with the opposing 3b coach. Or how about purposely throwing the 2b coming down deal  poorly to "promote" the opposing team to run and then try not to cooperate with them by then doing your best when it actually counts and really try to throw the would be basestealer out and help your team win.

When at baseball practice we have our shortstops field ground balls in a number of different ways and hope to encourage the opposing team to hit him ground balls by having our pitcher throw the ball down in the zone. We figure out who is the best player on the team in fielding ground balls and throwing them to 1b then hope the opposing team hits the ball to him frequently. If our catcher can throw the ball with effectiveness to 2b and we practice it frequently why would one want to "discourage" the other team from trying to run "all the way" to 2b before he throws it there? I know our best catchers in the past loved it when opposing runners tried to steal so he could help his team by throwing them out just like a good centerfielder I would think has the confidence to maybe catch a fly ball for an out from time to time.

The problem is that so many things have to go "right" to throw a base runner out.  It is easy to focus on the catcher and credit/blame him. 

 

But it starts with the pitcher -- The count -- The pitch thrown.  The pitch has to be in a spot that give the catcher a chance to catch it -- clean catch and release.  Has to be a good throw.  Then the SS/2B has to actually break to the base and catch the ball (some just can't do it).    

 

That is a lot of moving parts.  So if I can discourage a team from trying during warm ups, I am all for it. 

Catch ball throw ball 127.279 feet, catch ball U or V tag executed..sounds like just simple baseball fundamentals..

 

 

What I did to find the distance between home and second is to use the pathagorean theorem which is a^2 + b^2 = c^2.  In this case "a" will be from home plate to first base and "b" will be from first base to second base.  Therefore to solve for "c" (the third distance in our triangle) we simply take 90^2 + 90^2 = 16,200.  Now that's not the final answer.  We still have to take the square root of 16,200 to find the distance from home plate to 2nd base, which is 127.279 feet.

 

All things being relatively equal, I'd work on the pitchers move to home / first!

There are several reasons why workout pop times are better than in game pop times.

 

Some do cheat during workouts, but even the cheating has to be done very well in order to get a good time. Truth is too much cheating only increases the pop time.  When we see a catcher releasing the ball far in front of the plate, he is cheating, but he is cheating himself.  He can't run the ball to 2B as quickly as he can throw it.  Of course he gains momentum for his throw, but the very best pop times we have ever recorded  have been with very little cheating... Catch, gain momentum, quick feet, quick release, strong arm.

 

Another thing to consider, it is much easier to catch and throw in a workout, than it is to catch and throw with an actual pitcher in a game.  First the catching part is more difficult, there are various pitches you have to deal with... The guy throwing to the catcher in the work out isn't throwing breaking balls, changeups and 2 seamers. There is not a hitter that is swinging at a pitch.

 

I fully agree with Foxdad. Everything is important, but too late is too late.  The guy that throws accurately at 2.5 won't throw anyone out.  The guy that throws 1.9 will throw out the runner most of the time he is accurate.  Sure the pitcher is vitally important in actually stopping the running game, but the pitcher doesn't dictate how good the catcher really is.  

Glad to see some good discussion on the catching boards. By cheating at combines/try outs, with all experienced catchers (and at 16u+ that should be the case but there are some obvious exceptions), I mean the minor and effective cheats such as angling body SLIGHTLY, starting to come up as the slow pitch is in-bound, and most of all--getting the ball downrange quickly and accuracy distant second in importance. Also, I've read/heard that bullet one-hops on the money (while maybe not "sexy") during official pop-time measurements, or in-game for that matter, often get there FASTER. Thus shaving the all-important pop-time by a tenth of a second is the way to go.

 

Many catchers, my son included, tend to focus on the beautiful all in-air throw that hits the glove a 1-2 feet to the right of the bag and a foot off the ground. But for pop time measurements, one-hopper all the way with the subtle/effective cheats going forward and "ballpark accuracy".. I think with active practice and with such an approach, my son can get 2.0-2.05 vicinity pops. By this time next year after another winter of velo training and conditioning in general, he'll get sub-2.0. We'll see. Good think he's a damn fine defensive catcher too!

There is no way a ball that bounces (which imparts friction and reduces velocity) travels faster than a ball in the air.  It is dynamically impossible.

I mean a ball traveling the SAME velocity out of the hand will still arrive to glove faster (second pop), even accounting for the hop/friction loss, with a (much) lower lower/flatter arc vs. (much) higher "arching" throw need to ensure the ball travels entirely through the air to the glove. Hope that clarifies things. But hey, maybe I've been informed erroneously. I'm a scientist and I like empircal data so please share if anyone has this information.