Pro vs College question

It is important to improve his grades so that he has options. Then he can make the BEST choice for him.

1450 on the SAT is a very good score. It is apparent that the ability to make good grades is there based on the SAT score.

That kind of score is getting close to receiving decent academic money. Have a good senior year and I am sure you still have many options.

quote:

It is important to improve his grades so that he has options

quote:

Have a good senior year and I am sure you still have many options.

This is some of the best advice you can get. Please don’t let him shut the door to college this early. His grades aren’t that bad and he still has a year to improve them.

Good Luck to him.

1450 is a very good score out of 1600 but if you are talking about out of 2400 (new sat) then that is a different story. I don't think I would indicate that college wasn't in the mix at all, I would simply let them know that your considering your options as things play out.

It's like getting a 950 (around that score) out of 1600. By the way, he can still take it again in his senior year. But because it is out of 2400, the "good" level drops because you have alot more questions to get wrong. So a perfect is really really good.

I have heard that 1450 is pretty good and that his 2.50 GPA because he goes to a private school isn't that bad if he can show that he can get it up this year. I'm just wondering how many kids end up just going pro even if they aren't drafted in the top rounds and do the scouts encourage that to get them cheaper. I would rather he go to college so we'll keep working in that direction.

The admissions dept. will give you the minimum required and average SAT for the past few years of any school your son is looking into.
1450 of 2400 (new SAT) equates to something between 1000-1080 (old SAT).
RE: GPA, you can ask the college how the 2.5 equates, too. And if grades are weighted at the private, if the courses were AP or College Prep.
Juco is also an option...they offer more scholarships (24 vs. 11.7)
He can take the SAT again in August, Oct, Jan...Some schools will take a best score from each test.

gpct8500,

My son's grades and test scores were similar to your son's, when he graduated from high school in 2004 (an academically challenging private school). He was not a draft prospect, but his decision was between a less academically challenging D2 with a strong baseball program, where he was automatically admitted based on test scores, or a more challenging D3 with a good but developing baseball program, where he was borderline for admission. He chose the D3, and had to get some of his high school teachers involved in helping him get accepted.

We still wondered whether he could pass his college courses, and it has not been easy, but so far he is making appropriate progress toward a degree. He likes college much more than he thought he would, and he LOVES college baseball. The team camaraderie in college is key - he will never, ever forget this experience, and the friends he has made, for the rest of his life.

This doesn't exactly address your son's "pro vs college" decision, but I just thought I would share that from the perspective of a student/athlete who didn't know if college would be a good fit for him.

To all let me say this has been a tough Question in are house for a month are so.
My 06 son was a drafted player, are should I say a draft and follow player.
And before the draft we were waiting to see if any scholly money would be available after the Draft.
Well there was School's that were contacting him after the Draft.
We had to wait till my 06 was back home from oversea's.
And after all said school's had seen him this past week.

Also out of respect for the Team that Drafted him, We sat and Talked to his Scout.
It's the Hardest Decision my Son has ever had to Make.
And being the Parent, I had to let him Make that Decision on his Own.
I believe he made the Right Decision and I will Back him up 100%.
Either decision he would of made I would of backed it!! EH

Gpct8500,
Great questions and some great answers. I agree with MNMom when she says most student athletes love college and college baseball. Again this has nothing to do with your question but I will add that my son really enjoyed college and college baseball. College has few negatives. Again I agree with most when they talk about OPTIONS! Options are the greatest asset a player can have when determining his future (baseball or otherwise). Couple of things to consider here. For the most part D1 college coaches are baseball coaches and are only concerned if a player lacks the academics to remain eligible during his college years. I had a mother of an excellent pitcher (with weak academics) tell me a nationally known D1 coach told her if she could get her son’s ACT high enough to gain admittance into his college that he could KEEP him eligible. In most instances the baseball coach is all about baseball and academics is relegated to being just a necessary component that perpetuates his baseball program! EVERYONE knows the importance of academics but baseball is their game and their concerns are baseball related.
Professional scouts are looking to draft only those players that are going to accept their offer to play professional baseball. Signability is a big issue with professional scouts as it should be. One has to assume the weaker the player’s academics, the higher the probability he will sign if offered. I’ve heard discussions go both ways in trying to determine if weaker academics could “help” his draft status? My gut feel tells me the weaker academics will actually hurt his draft status and/or his signing bonus. Again I think this is where the “options” come in and enhances the player’s negotiating position. Scouts are very aware of the “options” the player will be faced with and the seasoned scout can pretty much tell which way a player will go when offered. Just a side note: In my opinion the player may be the “mouthpiece” in declaring his intention to go pro or college, but the parental influence is obvious even with those that claim it was “his” decision so look for scouts to get Mom and Dad’s positions on the pro/college choice. I might ad that I have heard of many players professional careers have been postponed just because a parent said something during the recruiting process.
Fungo

Fungo,
Great post! There is nothing wrong with college baseball, in fact I think baseball made son a better student. I remember while in college I found every excuse known to mankind to get out of class. Son has no excuse, you go or you don't play.

I just wanted to add something. I found out recently that many coaches receive a bonus for every player that has a GPA above 3.0!

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
My gut feel tells me the weaker academics will actually hurt his draft status and/or his signing bonus. Again I think this is where the “options” come in and enhances the player’s negotiating position. Scouts are very aware of the “options” the player will be faced with and the seasoned scout can pretty much tell which way a player will go when offered.

Fungo, I completely agree with this.


On one hand you may have some scouts telling you your son should start his pro career early, that college coaches are only worried about winning and not player development, the benefits of playing everyday, etc.

Then, the college coaches are telling you about the valve of an education, the excitement of playing in a college world series, and how small a percentage of pro players make it all the way.

It can feel like you are being torn in two different directions.

Add to that, a major leaguer who advises if your son doesn’t go in the first couple of rounds and get very good money to sign then he should go to college. Wow, is it any wonder parents get involved?

So, keeping the option of going to college open is very important. Whether, he decides to go to a DI or a JUCO.

Some kids are ready to sign after school and others may need another year or two. It is all about keeping your options open.

Just wanted to add, that IMO signing with a well know DI for baseball will probably get him more of a signing bonus than signing with a junior college or smaller 4 year school. But, that is probably a different topic.

Having been through the process I have to repectfully disagree with the above statment.

While higher GPA gives you more options for choices, it does not necessarily mean you will have better draft options. More and more teams (due to restrictions with slot money unless you are a TOP prospect) will not offer you a bonus and give you extra money for your scholarship amount in your pocket. They will let you walk away and try again in three years. Yeah, yeah I know there is a MLB scholarship plan, but it is NOT the college experience. And make sure you read it carefully beforehand.

It's esier for a team to sway a prospect to sign that might have difficulty going to school and handling baseball at the same time. I have seen more prospects NOT drafted out of high school or drafted later rounds(with hopes of a draft and follow) because of good scholarships and high GPA's. I have seen more and more HS prospects getting drafted because of lower GPA's and small scholarhip amounts. No offense to anyone with my opinion.

Someone said once, the draft isn't always about finding and getting the best talent, but the best available players.

TPM,

I understand why you disagree and respect your opinion.

I agree with you that many very good players go un-drafted because a club may not believe he can be signed away from college.

I know of a very good pitcher who had the talent to go in the early rounds of the draft a couple of years ago. He was an excellent student, his father was a doctor, and he had a scholarship to a very good University. He went un-drafted because he wasn’t signable.

I think scouts do a very good job of checking out prospects for signability before the draft. That means a lot of very good players won’t get drafted, because the scouts know they can’t get them to sign.

Not to venture too far off on a tangent, but are there any restrictions on pro scouts speaking to H.S. players that can effect NCAA elligibility rules?

There are no restrictions on professional scouts talking to high school players.

Thats correct. Pro baseball and pro scouts have no restrictions at all. They can come and go as many times as they would like and they can call and talk to you every single day if they so choose.

As for college baseball vs Pro baseball. That would be a personal option. Most kids and their parents like the college option because they know what the road leads to as oppossed to the unknow fear factor that goes with what pro ball has to offer. AT LEAST IN THEIR MINDS. I see many many kids who transfer from one college to the next because the situation didn't turn out the way they wanted it to in college. I also think that has a bearing. In pro ball if the player or parent doesn't like the way its going there is no undoing or changing it. Pro baseball and all the teams do a great job of taking care of the high school players. They really do.

For most parents and even the players now. Its about the all mighty dollar. If your goal is money, GO TO SCHOOL. If its about trying to be a major league player, GO PRO.

I hear alot of this college experience bull. Well you get that everyday in pro ball. You meet some great people and all of them are also within the 4 years of age you would be in college. You'll have lifetime friends and even better fun than in college because your doing baseball everyday and not attending class as a social security number. In pro baseball you have a name.Is it really about the partys? Can you name one job that will give you a 100 grand bonus and pay for your college? Can you name one job that you can get that will pay you over a million dollars a year if you make it to the big leagues. Sure its hard to make it. But shouldn't everything be something that you have to really work hard to attain?

VANCE34,GREAT POST MY BROTHER!!!

All of these responses are very good!

It is really the individual's own decision and can be very difficult to make.

I've seen the best and the worst of each side of decision and as I have said many times here and elsewhere You better get the dough while the gettins good. Here are just a few from 2006 draft that I have seen in scouting endeavors>

Clayton Kershaw
Colton Willems
Preston Mattingly
Kyle Drabek
Chris Marrero
Chris Huseby

and on and on....this is just the tip of the iceberg...help me out with others HSBBW board....There are many many more! Peace, Shep

quote:

You want a $1,000,000 in the bank, plus college costs, or do you want to roll the dice, study hard and try to become a great ballplayer at the same time?

I believe that would almost be a no Brainer.

But in Reality, for every drafted player going into the pro's.
there's an equal number of Pro player's being released out the other end.

Yeah and for every kid with a college degree over half aren't even in the field that they studied.

An investment becomes a GOOD investment no matter the cost of the investment if it is worked. Wonder what PIAZZA was thinking when he signed in the 62nd round or Keith Hernadez in the 40 something round and, well I could go on and on.

Again, I wonder how big the fight would be to get on the bus if every player drafted got the same amount?

Vance

I take it you have no college degree---just by the weay you post--you can correct me if I am wrong-- for many it is quite important, the degree that is--there are already too many training centers being run by excellent baseball players who did not make it--not knocking them --just stating fact--what else can they do ?

In this day and age most times a college degree wont get you anywhere--many companys are looking for graduate degrees

It is a decision for each individual but I know where I would go---$1 million doesnt last long after taxes

I'll give you an even more recent example than that who plays in TX LEAGUE out your way Vance.
His name is Terry Evans who was drafted and signed in 47th round a couple years back by St Louis and promptly just got traded to Angels for Jeff Weaver with Jared Weaver taking Jeff's place in the rotation. I spoke with Terry, Coach Derrick May and Coach Pop Warner before many FL STATE LEAGUE games before the trade and gave what I thought were some helpful tips on hitting. Terry Evans is currently leading all Minor League Hitters in HRs if you include Palm Beach Cards, Springfield(before Trade) and currently Arkansas Travelers AA. Dennis Dove is currently throwing 96 97 98 MPH as setup man for Cards and being looked at by some clubs looking for closer. Excellent candidate IMHO.
Don't worry, I'll keep you updated on all of them. Just go to PG professional forum threads and you will see what I mean. Peace, Shep

And as to the topic?

It is a very Personal decision that every Drafted Player must face.
For some they know that Pro ball as quik as possible is the Answer. No matter what round they were Drafted.
For Some even Know they may have Top Bonus money Available, Choose College.

Then there's the Betweener's. Is that a word??

Can there be a wrong are right answer here?

EH

As usual TR HIT your clueless. I have a masters degree.

quote:

It is a decision for each individual but I know where I would go---$1 million doesnt last long after taxes

Do you really know how dumb that statement is?

You can always go to college (its free, the club will pay for it) and if you hire someone to invest your money it will last many many years. However if you wanta give it away to every party stop and every family member you know then of course not.

And on top of that. Tell me where you can get a million dollar bonus before taxes with a graduate degree? There is no such thing.

The right and wrong answer is this, IF ITS ABOUT MONEY GO TO SCHOOL. IF ITS ABOUT TRYING TO BECOME A MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL PLAYER SIGN A PRO CONTRACT.

Vance

I am tired of the pissing contest with you-- CLUELESS--not in any way

How dumb is the statement--LMAO--one million is at the best 750,000 after taxes--and the rest doesnt last long because most kids spend on ahome for mom and pop , cars etc

You see Vance I live in the real world-- I want kids to get an education not get a huge check that evaporates overnight-- a degree helps them for the future not just today

You preach from one pedestal and I from another-whois right Iahve no idea but nI like my side of the stage when I speak-and by the way the dogs you have biting at my heels are not big enoough to take me down

TR HIT, well stop pissing then.

Isn't getting a college degree about earning a pay check? Tell you what, figure out for me what, with the avg college degree , how many years it would take to earn $750,000.

Who cares when and how you get it. The bottom line is that you got it. Lets see, and yes this is condensending, Go play pro ball take the $750,00 give it 5 years and work your tail off. If you don't make it then get your degree its free! Now you have the money and the experience and you still have the rest of your life to get the degree.

Its amazing that kids and parents walk away from $750,000 dollars and a FREE 4 year SCHOLARSHIP.

Vance

For me it is very simple---get the college degree unless they give you upwards of 5 million

Simple as that--as I said you go your way and I go mine--but I like my way better--
there is longevity


And you and I know the college deal almost never happens for the pro player when it all ends--and by then the kid has no desire to go back school

Wonder what David Wright would say. Looks like he is having fun!

quote:

I see morons making 50-75k per year in my business, thankfully I fire them instead of hire them............many college degreed kids get paid less than non-degree in many fields......

Well IMHO, my lil sis went to college instead of trying for pro in golf. I laugh how some one 8 years younger than me is making 4 times what I am making. I finished my degree in my thirties. I spent my teens and twenties working 60-70 hours a week while taking a few occasional classes. I really busted my hump. I made good money but it didnt substitute what a wonderful time that my sister had in college. A lot of kids who went to college that are 10 years younger than me are making plenty of money. Check out the other post about how hard its in the minors. Do you really think a player with a wife and kid are going to pound out a degree in 3-4 years? Sorry for the negativism there in that question. I have run into quite a few not quite good enough to be there guys who have no degree to speak of and their money is all gone.

Another thing about college. I do have relationships with friends that I work with over this time but I don't have college buddies. When I finished my degree everyone was older and trying like hell to get out of school. The 20 something college students are living in the world for the first time in their lives! There is no cocoon of baseball only there. So i don't blame the kid that passes on the million dollar offer he wants to try college out first.

Don't get me wrong I LOVE BASEBALL! If you can do academics and baseball, I can't see how you can't go to college. Pro Baseball isn't going anywhere. If you are good enough they will draft you! Enjoy your college life then start your pro baseball life.

You guys are talking about $1,000,000 signing bonus'. There are around 1500 kids drafted each year and you are talking about 30 or so kids per year.

Heard the other day that $1,000,000 getting 6% will earn $60,000 a year in interest. HMMM.....

IMHO, anyone who give up $1,000,000 to sign either really, really wants school, is a very top prospect who thinks they will sign for 2-3 million later or has well to do parents .

I don't knock anyone for their decisions and as others have said, it's a personal decision. Might as well be arguing over which came first, the chicken or the egg! BTW, it was the chicken .

quote:

You guys are talking about $1,000,000 signing bonus'. There are around 1500 kids drafted each year and you are talking about 30 or so kids per year.

FrankF,

I was thinking the same thing! By the way, if anyone wants to sign my son for a million dollars he is available.

Seriously, this only effects a small percentage of those drafted.

A scout will always give the argument as to why you SHOULD go pro. Unless you are a scout such as bbscout, who realizes that this is a HSBBW read by parents whose sons most likely will not get a million dollar + signing bonus.
And actually don't know why the big bucks is being discussed going pro vs college, because I doubt that it would pertain to many who come here to visit. It's more about in betweeners. So VERY few get big money, and in the end it shouldnot be about money, but what your son wants to experience. It is apparent by reading the draft rounds, that very many college players are drafted and there is NOTHING wrong with going to college with the hopes of pro ball later on, whther it be for 1 million or 25K.

By the way, many clubs will not pay out full bonus' anymore all at once, so that the prospect doesn't get up and quite if he is not happy. So for some, forget the total investment.

There are many who were lower picks who made it, many higher picks who did not. It's a crapshoot, we all know that. Remember folks, cream rises to the top, 45th or 1st round.

As far as going to college and not playing enough baseball, my son's team played approx 70 games in 5 months. He is at the cape, playing 6-7 days a week. He has more innings put in this summer than his friends that have been drafted. So as a pitcher, how much do you REALLY play? As a late round draft pick, how much do you REALLY play. In the fall he is back to workouts at a magnificent facility and in instruction and practice, with very little time off on the field. The spring practice EVERYDAY with instruction except mondays due to NCAA regulations, and a full day of classes. College players schedules are very difficult and very demanding and does not go unnoticed by the scouts watching day to day.
You speak to those who went pro after HS, you speak to those who went to college, both will tell you it was the right choice (and probably wouldno thave had it any other way) because it was the right choice for them, at the time. You make friends for a lifetime at either, on and off the field.

In the end, it's all about options, do what you have to do to have the option to choose, which means trying to do the best you can in HS, so that when the time comes you can choose between going to a Rice, Cal State, UGA, Standford, GA Tech, Clemson, UM, Oregon State, UNC, etc. vs pro early on.

For those of you that state the degree means nothing, I know of lots of college players coming out who are making VERY good money. The experience alone of trying to juggle school and a sport sets them apart from others. A college degree, or some type of school beyond HS shows years of hard work and commitment, a college degree will earn you more money in the end unless you go onto become an entrepanuer.

JMO.

Tiger Mom. You just don't get it do you. Its about chasing a dream of playing in the major leagues. Those are the players I want!

Your young you have your whole life in front of you. You can go to college when your 90. But you can't play baseball forever. There are more than 30 players who get a Million dollar signing bonus or more. Again, its not about the money. Its about putting it out there and giving it all you got and see if you can become a big leaguer. Its a risk. Those that take risk seem to succeed more in life anyway.

Its not about options either. Its about a dream. A dream of playing with the best players in the world.

Bottom line.you wanta be a big leaguer then you have to work for it!

I really do respect the scouts. Look at the BA database on previous signing bonuses. There is very few kids who don't sign. I couldn't imagine the amount of work to get such a huge percentage of signings.

I do not think your dream should die because you decide to go to College. A large number of drafted players are out of college. I personally think doing College at 25-26 is little more difficult than 18-19. Just my opinion.

Vance, I don't think YOU get it.

Only about 60% of first rounders ever see an inning in the majors. The other 40% never get there. As you go down the draft, the odds get lower and lower.

Yes, you can go to college at any age, but college isn't just about the books. Most of us remember our college days fondly for a whole host of reasons. It's a huge, positive experience that I think a boy (and today's 18-year-old is a "boy", not a man) should be quite properly reluctant to give up.

If he's a player, then after 3-4 years of college ball he'll still get his shot. As Mark Texiera put it, why ride buses in the minors when you can do your time at a nice university? The top college guys often enter the minors at AA (Ryan Zimmerman, for example). The typical high school draftee starts in rookie ball and needs a few years to get to AA, if he ever gets there at all.

Zimmerman's in the majors at age 21. Would he have gotten there sooner had he gone in the draft at age 18? Would he have gotten his $2.5 million signing bonus if he had signed at age 18? (Nope!)

These decisions have to be made on an individual basis, taking into account how good the kid really is, whether he's college material or not, what the financial options are, etc.

Andrew Miller got drafted out of high school. Had he signed, his slot money would've been about 800k. This year, he'll get about $2.4-2.5 million. Looks to me like he had three great years at UNC and came out about $1.6-1.7 million ahead and on the fast track to the bigs. Now tell me: Do you think he should have signed out of high school?

Midlo

You have to realize that Vance is locked into his own thinking---if you dont agree with him you "don't get it"-- and he claims he has a Masters and still talks like this-- lets assume he has his masters--w and he talks about education this way?

I prefer the go to college for the three years at least method and play ball at the same time---if you are not college material, and yes there are those players, you get drafted and sign.

I also agree that most kids who sign out out of HS never get to college later on even if it is part of the deal--- but that proviso is only good for so many years and doesn't last forever-- why do think that "carrot" is included--it is money most teams never have to spend

I'm going to change the question just a little, are the solution let's say.
If the Pro's Guaranteed that a player out of HS. Would get at least 6 to 7 Yr's. of playing time in 1 organization, before there sent to the Curb.
Then that might be worth forgoing College.
But only if that was your first priority.
I've heard to many stories of player's that are cut before the ink is dry on there contract. EH

Vance,
Trust me! I get it! Just because someone decides to go to college, doesn't mean he doesn't have the dream. My son has had the dream since he was a little guy, still does, college hasn't changed that one bit!
Honesty, if you ask him he would tell you know he would not have given up what he has for a million. You are right about one thing, it is NOT about the money.

Included in his goal of playing MLB was the dream of winning a conference championship, going to Omaha as a player and playing for USA or on the cape for summer. He also wanted to experience football weekends and homecoming, s****r games and basketball games, and probably a lot more I don't know about. Do admit, classes seem to get in the way sometimes, though he has managed to keep the GPA above 3.0! He has achieved most of that, pretty determined and serious about his game, so I wouldn't doubt he MIGHT make it someday. He took a risk, and according to you, risk takers are more successful.
Scouts came to do their job, asking questions, explaining about their system of advancement, etc. But in the end when they called before draft time to ask what he really wanted to do and he answered go to college, they all said, "wise choice". But again I say, that was the right choice for him.

Dreams are dreams and reality is reality. Reality is, he wants to do it all. Are you or I to tell him he CAN'T? He may or may not make it to the show someday but I can tell you that he is having one h e l l of a ride along the way!

Oldslugger,
My question or solution never spoke of money.
I'm talking TIME here.
Giving enough time to become the best player you can become.
That would be my concern with going pro out of HS. EH

EH,
Each year approx 1500 are drafted. Most don't sign. The draft serves two purposes. One to find the best available prospects for MLB, second to have players make up teams for those prospects, three, to add $$ to baseball from revenues from their ML affiliates.

Most teams don't want to give those that are not top prospects more time than they have to. They have a revolving door going. They need to have their prospects play against the best, for competition to get to the show. Every once in a while they draft what they feel may be an organizational player, and he turns out to be a sensation.
There are so many players to fill open positions and so many teams to fill them. The more players that come, means more go. It's a game of survival of the fittest with yes, the "investments" given more chances, more time.

There are no guarantees in life. Even in college, you might be asked to leave to make room for someone else who might have more potential than you. Life isn't fair and baseball is not fair.

IMO - When it comes to this subject - anyone who claims an absolute truth exists one way or the other is just "talking jive".

Every single kid is different - and every kid's situation is different.

There isnt anyone on this planet that can tell a kid what is right for him.

Some kids make the right decisions and some dont. Thats life.

But to claim that you must go to college - or that you must play pro ball out of high school - or any other absolute - belies a very simple mind. (Regardless of what type of sheepskin you have hanging on the wall - or dont have hanging on the wall.)

IMO.

TPM

quote:

Every once in a while they draft what they feel may be an organizational player, and he turns out to be a sensation.

That's the one's I'm talking about, Given enough time to Develop into a very good MLB player. EH

quote:

The draft serves two purposes. One to find the best available prospects for MLB, second to have players make up teams for those prospects, three, to add $$ to baseball from revenues from their ML affiliates.

Isn't that 3 purposes?

Your right on number 1
and
Your somewhat right on numer 2
Pro teams do not draft HS players to fill rosters. They do that with college players and independent league players only.

and your way off the deep end on number 3
MLB teams do not make money on their minor league teams. Each Minor league team supports its self. Actually MLB teams loose money on minor league teams.

quote:

There are so many players to fill open positions and so many teams to fill them. The more players that come, means more go. It's a game of survival of the fittest with yes, the "investments" given more chances, more time.

Isn't that the way ALL jobs are. Unless your a stay home mom, and even those get replaced sometimes too.

IF you wanta go to college go. I have said that all along. If its about becoming a major league player then sign your contract.

Go down each major league roster. MOST players and MOST of the high dollar players NEVER attended one day of college class.

There isn't one ML team that would draft a HS kid and not give him 5 years. Pro teams draft HS players to help them make it to the big leagues. Bottom line.

quote:

Originally posted by Vance34:

Go down each major league roster. MOST players and MOST of the high dollar players NEVER attended one day of college class.

How do you define most?

I actually did that exercise a few weeks ago.
Every single team - just because I had some time to waste. I even posted about 5 or 6 teams worth here.

Its about 50-50 - with a high number of players having attended JUCO's and community colleges.

And if you take the Latin American players out of the equation - the ratio is about 60-40.

I guess it comes down to how you define "Most". LOL

EH,
I saw this on another post, might explain why players are let go.

http://baseball.about.com/od/lesserknownrules/a/transactionrule.htm

Vance, Sorry, I meant 3, please forgive me. You mean to say baseball MAKES NO money off of ML? You said they lose money? So if they make no money off of them how can they lose money?

I never said that more college or HS players were drafted to fill rosters. Hmm, that's odd, you mean that 16 college players of the first round, 18 college players of the second round were drafted to fill rosters? Holy moly, what an incredible waste of money!

And if they have no intentions of having them make it to MLB, why did they spend money on MOST of them in the first place, oh I forgot, to fill roster spots! Gee, and I thought they were considered prospects.

You certainly do make the whole thing confusing!

BTW, Midlo dad sked you a question, last page, you didn't answer.

quote:

You mean to say baseball MAKES NO money off of ML? You said they lose money? So if they make no money off of them how can they lose money

Major League teams make no money from the minor league teams. That would be correct! Each minor league team is self supporting. The major league teams actually pay for a minor league agreement with a city. They team also supplies all the equipment and all the player and coaches salaries. They recieve no revenue for having a team in a city.

quote:

you mean that 16 college players of the first round, 18 college players of the second round were drafted to fill rosters? Holy moly, what an incredible waste of money!

Not what I said. What I said was that pro teams don't draft HS players to fill rosters. They draft college and Independent players. I DID NOT say they draft 1st round players or 2nd round players to fill rosters. BUT, the Royals have come close.

quote:

And if they have no intentions of having them make it to MLB, why did they spend money on MOST of them in the first place, oh I forgot, to fill roster spots! Gee, and I thought they were considered prospects

They have all intentions of helping them make it to the ML's. Guys taken that early in the draft would not be roster fillers. I NEVER SAID THAT!

quote:

I actually did that exercise a few weeks ago.
Every single team - just because I had some time to waste. I even posted about 5 or 6 teams worth here.

Its about 50-50 - with a high number of players having attended JUCO's and community colleges.

And if you take the Latin American players out of the equation - the ratio is about 60-40.

I guess it comes down to how you define "Most". LOL

And WE (as Americans) wonder why American baseball players are getting fewer and fewer in the big leagues! HAMMER on the HEAD of the NAIL!

quote:

Originally posted by Vance34:

quote:

You mean to say baseball MAKES NO money off of ML? You said they lose money? So if they make no money off of them how can they lose money

Major League teams make no money from the minor league teams. That would be correct! Each minor league team is self supporting. The major league teams actually pay for a minor league agreement with a city. They team also supplies all the equipment and all the player and coaches salaries. They recieve no revenue for having a team in a city.

quote:

you mean that 16 college players of the first round, 18 college players of the second round were drafted to fill rosters? Holy moly, what an incredible waste of money!

Not what I said. What I said was that pro teams don't draft HS players to fill rosters. They draft college and Independent players. I DID NOT say they draft 1st round players or 2nd round players to fill rosters. BUT, the Royals have come close.

quote:

And if they have no intentions of having them make it to MLB, why did they spend money on MOST of them in the first place, oh I forgot, to fill roster spots! Gee, and I thought they were considered prospects

They have all intentions of helping them make it to the ML's. Guys taken that early in the draft would not be roster fillers. I NEVER SAID THAT!

But, but Vance,
You said if you want to go to college go, if you want to be a major league player sign a contract.
So if you sign a contract out of HS that means you will be a major league player and if you go to college you won't, that's what you implied right?
And you also said they draft college players to fill rosters, but then you said they will help the many top college drafted prospects to go to MLB, right? Why wouldn't they?
So fill me in, if you go to college you will not be a MLB, but if you are one of he 30 plus they are paying some big money for this year you might get lucky or you might not.
Isn't that the way it is for everyone Vance?

Are you a scout, with a master's? Did you play MLB, no you couldn't have because most MLB players don't ever attend. I just want to understand where you are coming from.

A former player from where my son goes is a MLB pitcher, so is a short stop from the Padres. As a matter of fact there have been MANY that played MLB (not all at one time)lol. Does that fall under MOST or SOME?

Gee, if someone here followed your great advice, they might even be more confused.

After signing for $500,000 out of Venezuela last year, Yankees outfielder Jose Tabata made a quick impression in the Rookie-level Gulf Coast League by hitting .314/.382/.417 and swiping 22 bags.

The 17-year-old has built on that this season at low Class A Charleston, where he was hitting .321/.395/.454 through 293 at-bats and was named to both the South Atlantic League all-star game and the Futures Game.

Tabata has plus tools across the board, starting with an advanced approach at the plate. Tabata uses the whole field effectively, and already has gap power to left-center field. He has plus-plus bat speed and many scouts are projecting plus power to develop in time, though Tabata had just five homers in the Sally League this season.

We caught up with an American League scout in Pittsburgh at this year's Futures Game to give an assessment of what he saw out of arguably the Yankees' most exciting prospect.

"He's a very, very interesting player," the scout said. "He's a plus runner (4.15 seconds to first base) with the ability to hit for a high average. He's got average to above-average arm strength and depending on how he fills out, certainly has the potential to hit for tremendous power. His bat speed and bat-to-ball ability is just that good.

"His swing is very quiet--no wasted movement. He's got very quick hands and strong wrists and seems to have good balance in his approach. The hand-eye is remarkable, and where a lot of guys would be so dialed into that ability to hit for power--and we see so many young players fall in love with that ability, they try to do that every AB--he shows a mature approach, just takes what he's given and launches balls the other way into the gap.

"The age is the thing that makes him so intriguing. You see all these tools now--and they all play--and that's what intrigues you. Is he going to stay at 5-foot-11, 180 (pounds) and be a gap-to-gap guy who can hit balls to all fields with no problem? Or does he grow into that body, become like 6-foot-2, 200 (pounds) and really start to unlock some more of that huge power potential? Everything's in place if he does--the tools are all above-average to plus. And if that happens, we're talking about a monster."

quote:

You said if you want to go to college go, if you want to be a major league player sign a contract.
So if you sign a contract out of HS that means you will be a major league player and if you go to college you won't, that's what you implied right?

I didn't imply anything. You did. Again, what I said is if its about the money then go to school. If its about trying to become a major league player then sign the contract!

quote:

So fill me in, if you go to college you will not be a MLB,

Whew, I said this? NO I DID NOT! I said go to college if its about the money!

Let me ask you something TPM, lets say every player in the draft gets the same bonus. Would your son have been fighting to get on that **** bus to go play! Your **** right he would have!

A serious injury kept me from playing further. And yes I have a masters degree! Do you?

quote:

A former player from where my son goes is a MLB pitcher, so is a short stop from the Padres

And the guy playing in the middle with that Padre SS is a HIGH SCHOOL 4th RD pick that signed for less than 500,000 dollars OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL!


GEE, TPM read what is said and not what you think is said! Then maybe you would understand. Who is your son? Didn't he have Tommy John Surgery? I think I'll call Leggett and get the inside on him.

Obviously, I'm talking about prospects out of High School.

Vance,
My last response to you. In this thread as in others, you seem to imply that we are all jerks, you know who I am, I don't know who you are. So coming on here spewing advice ( some of what you say makes sense, other times you talk in circles) but if someone DOES NOT agree with your thinking, you get pretty testy. I am tired of you thinking we are idiots, not just here but where ever you post.

You don't like when someone misinterprets what you say, you have done the same thing here.
This topic is about choices, I am trying to explain that there are choices. Choice is based on circumstances for each individual, sometimes money is involved in the choice, sometimes not. The impression you give is that your chances of making it to MLB is less if you went to college. In the end, you and I know, that who makes it makes it most likely whether they went to college or straight out of HS.

Son DID not have TJS, and you can call Jack, I think that he too will tell you that college for many is a good choice, considering he has had almost 100 players drafted in his term at Clemson. Did all of them become MLB players, no, but many of them got chances, the same chances one has coming out of HS.

And btw, my education has NOTHING to do with this topic. Besides, I have until 90 to go back to school (according to you), and at 55, I haven't decided what to do yet.

Understand, you do NOT have to be in the business of baseball to understand the realities of college recruiting and the MLB draft.

And if you are a professional and in the business, business must be pretty slow, because I CAN'T imagine why an educated ex professional with a MASTER's degree is posting all day long on a High school baseball web!

quote:

my education has NOTHING to do with this topic

Then WHY did mine?

If you'll look at what I said. It is all about choices. My comment again was "If its about the MONEY go to school. If its about trying to play in the big leagues then sign the contract."

To many American players (and Good ones to) make pro baseball the last resort and not the priority.

We deal with it every year. High school kids/ parents saying "if you'll give me a Million or 2 million or even 3 or 4 million then I'll sign a contract. Its about the money and that Camp should go to school. We hear them say "yes I wanta be a big leaguer BUT I wanta go have fun in college first because my chances aren't good for making it to the big leagues. But, I'll be ready in 3 years. Then if not then after their Senior years. Then next thing you know they are calling every scout and begging for a chance at pro ball.

Its the parents/ kid that say my priority is becoming a big league player. Draft me where I should be drafted and pay me whats fair for where I am picked and I'm ready to go. "Where's the bus".

Pro baseball wants players who WANT it worse than anything else in life. I, nor any scout, have an issue with kids going to college.

Which brings to mind a Clemson player who may have a different perspective if you asked him today. Patrick Boyd.

I don't know about you, but walking away from alot of money and college money to is hard to realize.

quote:

And if you are a professional and in the business, business must be pretty slow, because I CAN'T imagine why an educated ex professional with a MASTER's degree is posting all day long on a High school baseball web!

Well, if you KNEW the business as you say you do then you would have realized that I'm doing professional coverage out of my home state and see one game(a minor league game)a night. Then I spend all day each day writing reports on those players that I see. I take breaks to contribute here. TPM, don't make an issue with me then demand that the same issue not be made with you!

VANCE


What does a kid from another country have to do with this discussion --we are talking USA kids coming out of HS and making a decision--sign or not when drafted !!!

By the way you are getting the "Doggie Syndrome" of not being able to answer questions when asked--- answer TPM--be a man about it even if she might be smarter than you !!!

TR HIT. There is no hope for you in understanding the point of view. I said I agree with you. Here I'll say it again. I agree with you.

Go to college. The issue is that foreign players have a priority of playing in the big leagues. American players(for the most part) only have it as a LAST RESORT. Its all good. My issue is with the parents and player for not saying in January. "Hey scouts, I'm going to college unless (as you would say) you give me 5 million dollars. That way we scouts don't have to waste time on them all spring!

So be honest in January and not after all the work has been done for NOT!

Again, go to school. I'll scout you in college and so will everyone else.

Oh my I have to agree with Vance, we have had discussions about being HONEST from early on. Make your choices for the RIGHT reasons, not wait until you see your bonus.

And since you brought it up, latin players from other countries do make up a large portion of the baseball pro community. You don't need a MASTER'S degree to figure that out, some have no choice.
And while we are at it, less college players in MLB because they had a CHOICE later on, do I hang around or continue for more years. Many have degrees, most almost all their degrees and something to fall back on. They have less staying power. A player after HS who has already given many years, doesn't have too many other options and you know as well as I many don't take advantage of the scholarship program.
I don't get into discussing players regardless, and it shouldn't be done by a professional on this site. This site is not for scouts to give reports on players, on what they should or shouldn't have done. I think some need to take lessons from those that are in the business who come here as professionals and conduct themselves as such as are not afraid to let us know who they are. You need to take some scout etiquette lessons from Doug (bbscout). He gives good advice,some don't always agree with him, I have never heard him mention one player or been negative towards a player's options. He has said the same as you, you want to play pro ball sign, you want to go to college go to college, period. But in a much kinder and gentler parent friendly way.JMO.
You as a scout have every right to state how you feel about the draft, but should be in a helpful way, for parents to be able to help their sons decide which is best for them.
You as a scout feel that only ones who will sign for anything are what you are looking for, I would ASSUME we all understand that. But in no means let anyone feel that if their choice is of anothr option, it's wrong.
As a professional you should know better than that on all of the above.
Now back to work!

TPM, Thanks. BUT, as I have said before. Tell the scouts up front what it is you wanta do. Don't be misleading. No where on any post have I made have I been misleading. NO, I haven't said that a player should sign for anything. thats just how you, TPM, took it. No choice is wrong at the moment. But a few years later most of us have said on at least one choice that maybe we should have done that instead of this. Don't put words in my mouth, please!

Again, if its about MONEY. GO to school. It its about trying to be a big leaguer then sign a contract.

Its a very simple choice and for all the reasons you mention. Mainly, that only a few get BIG money to sign but it is far more than the 30 players a year that you mention. But 500,000 isn't pocket change either.

Sure they don't take advantage of the scholarship program. But again THAT is their CHOICE not to use it. Its there for them to use.

In America we are so lucky that most of us have family to fall back on even as we get older. I was lucky enough to have parents that helped me and encouraged me to get my MASTERS DEGREE. They even helped by paying some of my bills and not any school bills. They were there for me. Becasue they had the means and even if they didn't they would have found a way to help me arrive at those ends.

Foreign players aren't nearly as fortunate in that regard. Hell, we go over there and setup camps with dorms and with schools and with teachers. They want a better life and playing in the big leagues can help them and their family have one.

So do we knock them having no other choice. No, but do we as Americans have to make it a last resort because we have it so good (for the most part), NO!

I edited my post see above.

I often wonder why, this great American business of MLB, doesn't set up dorms and camps here, for our own. Then we wouldn't have parents in a quandry about where to go seeking the best to teach our kids.

I think that is why you do get many players who do not sign out of HS.

TPM, there set up on every corner in America. We as Americans DO educate our own. Didn't your son attend a high school?

TPM, maybe you should take a trip to the Dominican and you will see!

quote:

I think that is why you do get many players who do not sign out of HS.

No it's not! They already have the best of everything and didn't even have to work for it to boot!

I wasn't going to weigh in on this subject because I don't think there's an absolute answer one way or another but I thought about Vance's theoretical question if ALL bonuses were the same regardless of draft round would players opt to sign rather than go to college? I have to say I believe just the opposite would
occur. If I have the opportunity to get 3 years of college under my belt and play baseball at the same time
and probably(more than likely) become a better ballplayer, it would be a no-brainer. At the end of those 3 years I'm still going to get the same bonus as I would've from HS. Why would I NOT go to college if I felt the college education and experience were important? I actually think THIS is what would happen--Those players who don't have a burning desire to go to college would immediately sign and those who DO have the desire for college would attend school. It would certainly weed out players from college teams who are only going to enhance their Pro value. Now that I think about it, I think that would be a great idea--all the guys
in rookie ball would have the same goal and all the college guys the same as well--just maybe a little side trip to experience a little more before turning Pro.

Am I off-base on this?

Moc1-
Sent you a PM.

If you are talking about educating for baseball in HS, I don't think most will agree with you. Baseball in HS is an EXTRA curricular activity.

Many familie here in America DO nOT have options to prepare their sons for baseball. You don't have to spend a fortune, but you cannot rely on HS. That is the reason why so many go to college, some to prepare better for a chance to play at a higher level. There is nothing wrong with that.

The point here, lost a long time ago, is to work hard in school on and off the field. I know many players who didn't get a second look out of HS, who got drafted after 3 years in college. They grew, tehy matured, and they had great instruction (yes you can get great instruction in college) Many choose that reason over going pro out of HS and it is not a bad choice.
I would say before the draft, I felt different about things than I do now. It WAS about the money, no we couldn't see him giving up his opportunity working with the coaches at Clemson for what anyone was offering. But son had a great situation, a win win sort of thing. He couldn't lose, and if it meant not going beyond college ball, so be it. And if he gets offered less next time around, so be it. Doesn't mean he won't have a shot. Doesn't mean he DOES NOT want to make it his profession. In his case I think it worked out well, he has had a great time, and being prepared for the next level. It's not that way for everyone, I know that. But just an example of how important your GPA will become later on for options.

Moc,
I agree with you.

quote:

Originally posted by Vance34:
As usual TR HIT your clueless. I have a masters degree.

quote:

It is a decision for each individual but I know where I would go---$1 million doesnt last long after taxes

Do you really know how dumb that statement is?

You can always go to college (its free, the club will pay for it) and if you hire someone to invest your money it will last many many years. However if you wanta give it away to every party stop and every family member you know then of course not.

And on top of that. Tell me where you can get a million dollar bonus before taxes with a graduate degree? There is no such thing.

The right and wrong answer is this, IF ITS ABOUT MONEY GO TO SCHOOL. IF ITS ABOUT TRYING TO BECOME A MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL PLAYER SIGN A PRO CONTRACT.

I agree with some of what you say, but not all. If education is your number one priority, then go to college. If baseball is your number one priority, then sign. When I say this, I am assuming that you are a player that is wanted by pro ball out of high school.

A million dollars is a pipe dream.....about 35 guys in the whole world get that much to sign each year. as far as the college scholarship plan goes, if you are a good prospect, you won't be going to college in the fall any time soon. You will be in Instructional league as a new player and later on in a winter league and that is why I said what I said in my second sentence.

bbscout,
Thank you, you have a way of saying things as a professional and not insulting any of us who do not know as much as a pro scout may know.

quote:

If education is your number one priority, then go to college. If baseball is your number one priority, then sign

I said something different? No I didn't.

If its about the money, GO TO SCHOOL. IF its about trying to become a ML player then sign the contract. When its about the money the Priority is the money and going to school its not about being a ML player.

TPM, whats great about pro baseball is that a scout will like you based on projectable potential when your in high school because you can still be a good distance from reaching your overall ceiling. So it doesn't matter that you didn't produce to your potential in high school. Something your familiar with! So when you go to college and still don't perform to that projectable potential and you are now 3-4 years closer to your ceiling and many times have reached it by then. You now become a Senior draft and a roster filler if you get lucky!

quote:

Originally posted by Vance34:

quote:

If education is your number one priority, then go to college. If baseball is your number one priority, then sign

I said something different? No I didn't.

If its about the money, GO TO SCHOOL. IF its about trying to become a ML player then sign the contract. When its about the money the Priority is the money and going to school its not about being a ML player.

You sure did say something different and it is right here in black ink.

Just got in from GCL game, Dodgers vs Marlins.
BBscout, if there are any players in Nationals GCL camp you would like for me to update you on, it will be an honor, sir.

I have refrained from getting involved too much in this thread but just let me say this, if a player, out of HS, can think about nothing but the money opposed to the opportunity, I have a hard time promoting him anyway. Just last night, Paul M. and I had a long phone conversation and discussed the reality of the professional aspects of the "Money Game" filtering down to the amateur level. This is sad but true and an investment will bring what the market will bear and fortunately for the very few, those top 35 picks every year get the "Pipe Dream" leaving the rest of each team's slot money budget allowance kinda skewed for the rest of the draft selections. There are exceptions to the rule because of signability issues and other factors as in draft picks not signing giving others further down the line an opportunity to get a little and sometimes even a lot more! I say, good for them! If Chris Huseby can get 1.25Million as a 11th round pick, God Bless him! Good for him. I guess I'm kinda double talking in the sense of the money involved and do not mean to come across as against the system because just like anything else in life, you have to roll with it and accept or reject it and not be double-minded. I accept the system as it is personally and know that the golden days of "When It Was A Game" will never be again for those of us living in today . Shep's .02

I don't see any difference in what Vance said and what you said Doug. It boils down to the same thing. If a kid really wants pro ball then he will work with the club to make it happen. If he really wants to go to school then he will be stand offish and will hold to his amount he wants because he really does want to go to school.

bbscout,
Thank you for making things easy to understand.

Vance,
Thanks for scouting lesson 101, I think most of us here realize that. It has been discussed over and over on several threads. Players take chances of losing their future potential in college, I think many are aware. Which amazes me because many who know that still go onto college, knowing the chances. That's why many have ADVISORS.

Shep,
You don't think that Huseby getting drafted in the 14th and getting a nice bonus just "happened". I am assuming maybe this was a possible deal done in advance, because they didn't pick in every round and waiting until the 14th allowed them to give him a larger bonus. I think we know that too, but thanks for putting that in there!

Vance,
We know what bbscout does and who he works for, we know what Shep does, what about you?

Jeff, If a kid wants to go to school, money is not any big deal to him.......education is number one to him and baseball is a reward that he gets in the form of a scholarship and a chance to play ball at the college level.

What Vance said is in black and white. He said if it is about the money, go to college. That is not even close to what I said. If it is about the money, you won't make it anyway.



I am not talking about about the 35-40 guys who get a million.

Good point Doug and your right. Most wouldn't get it anyway. BUT BRAD LINCOLN DID! hahaha

Hey Tiger Mom. I know for a fact that you know all about agentts and advisors. How many have you had? Find one that see's it like you yet?

Vance is right on in my opinion and so is Doug and Shep!

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuilder:
Hey Tiger Mom. I know for a fact that you know all about agentts and advisors. How many have you had? Find one that see's it like you yet?

Vance is right on in my opinion and so is Doug and Shep!

I don't have ONE, but thanks for the inquiry.

And your 6th post here was WAY out of line. Another professional pro scout!

That was my bad TPM. I posted wrong pick on Huseby at 14th and had to go back and edit to 11th.

Anyway, leaving it with you good folks and headed to, guess where? If you guessed a ballpark, you are right. Vero Beach vs Palm Beach. Ya'll be nice now! Peace, Shep

Please bear with me on this Subject, and I will try to express
my thought' as clearly as possible.

I've been reading the post's hear on HSBBW, for awile now.
And most everybody has said get an Education before you go Pro, So you have something to fall back on. In case you get Injured are just can't make it to the next Level.
Now I understand the Scout's point of View. As far as being a Top Pick. Take the Money go to school Later.

But would it be a Bad Thing in the Scout's Eye's If said Player was a DNF, And choose to Go to a D1 after being Drafted.
What Guarentee does the Player Have that the Club that Drafted him will sign him to a reasonable contract, After just 1 year at JUCO.
Now Maybe said Player does want to play Pro ball and Money has nothing to do with it.
But the Offer of D1, Was to good to pass up.
And said Player feel's they would be better prepared for the Grind of the Minor League's if they had a couple of year's to Mature.
I'm just trying to See what the Scout's think on this Subject.
I know it's your Lively Hood and I don't blame you for wanting to sign quality player's, that you project out of HS.
Does it hurt the DNF player to opt for a Couple of year's of seasoning in the college rank's.
Would it not be better for the Pro Organization to have a seasoned player, which is Phsyically, and Mentally tougher. EH

quote:

Hey Tiger Mom. I know for a fact that you know all about agentts and advisors. How many have you had? Find one that see's it like you yet?

That was a pretty mean thing to say. If you are one sided in your beliefs then you will never learn from others who don't always agree with you. Try to keep an open mind

This is always an interesting topic of discussion, though it's too bad when the discussion gets a bit rude. Thank you bbscout for always being a voice of reason and very professional. Your depth of experience and your comments here are really appreciated.

The one point that I keep agreeing with throughout the arguments back and forth is that it is a very personal decision and each player needs to decide what his priorities are.

What is your favorite food? I may be allergic to it. What is my favorite food? You may hate it!

What is your dream career? Oh, that sounds boring to me! What is the best job I've ever had? That sounds like torture to you!

There are adults who chose careers because they paid well and ended up bored and unhappy. Others chose a career that was their passion, like medicine or law, and just happened to make very good money at it. How would anyone looking from the outside know how that person arrived at their career decision, money or love?

How important is it to go to college right after high school and earn that degree? I earned a BA right after HS and have always worked in professional jobs, but never one that was directly related to my degree. My husband earned his degree in his 30s while we had two very young children and we were both working fulltime, and his degree directly earned him his current career which is an excellent fit for him and also pays well. My son is a 20-yr-old RHP who didn't really think college was right for him, but went anyway because he wanted to play college baseball. He is now halfway through his college baseball "career" and almost halfway to his degree. Let's say in a few years he was offered the following choice of careers:

$100,000/yr as a computer programmer or business manager,
$50,000/yr as a college baseball coach, or
$10,000/yr (or less) to play minor league baseball.

I know the order in which he would choose:
#1 = $10K play baseball
#2 = $50K coach baseball
#3 = $100K any non-baseball desk job

Does that make him noble for having a dream and not caring about money - or foolish? Does it make your son greedy if his choice of the jobs would be the reverse order - or wise?

It's a very personal choice, and what is right for one person is not right for another. I know that's been said before...

Right or wrong should not even enter the equation...it's stictly a personal decision based on an "individuals" desire, priorities and goals in life. Because an accountant may have had an opportunity to be a financial advisor or stock broker, does it make his decision to be an accountant wrong or bad... No, it's what HE wanted out of life and something HE was comfortable with.

I also believe kids coming out of H.S. are well aware of the slim odds of ever making it to the big show...since I can't imagine it's a kids desire to be a career minor leaguer, there is likely to be some doubt in the back of their minds about going pro which may also play into their decision making. Thus many will opt for the college education and experience which also allows them to play the game they love on an
even higher level and whatever happens beyond that is gravy in their eyes. JMHO

My son is still young (heading into his junior year) and has always had the goal of playing professionally. Not sure if it will happen for him but if a he is offered an opportunity to play pro and accepts the offer, and part of the offer includes college tuition, is it possible for a player to attend any college classes at all during the years he is playing minor league ball? I thought that I had heard somewhere that the possibility existed to complete a few credit hours each year.

THE EH, if the DNF player chooses to attend the D1, which by the way happens all the time, then that DNF player would no longer be a DNF player. The club that drafted him would loose his rights when he walked into that first D1 class. Now that DNF player who is no longer a DNF player would not be elgible for the draft until after his Junior year at that D1.

FloridaFan, most young players that sign a pro contract prefer to spend their off seasons working out and lifting. When the minor league season is over in the 1st week of September most guys come home for a few weeks then head to instructional league. It varies for each club and a few don't even have an instructional program anymore. But, with todays technology you can take courses on line or you can take courses at a institution of higher learning that operates on the quarter system. You could take a full course load in that winter quarter.

quote:

Originally posted by Vance34:
THE EH, if the DNF player chooses to attend the D1, which by the way happens all the time, then that DNF player would no longer be a DNF player. The club that drafted him would loose his rights when he walked into that first D1 class. Now that DNF player who is no longer a DNF player would not be elgible for the draft until after his Junior year at that D1.

I thought (at a D-1) it was after junior year - or 21 years old - whichever comes first.

???

Itsinthegame, thats correct. The rule is that any player is elgible if his birthday falls on a date before or within 45 days of the completion of that years draft.

Example: Draft is June 6 and 7. Said players birth date is July 10 of the same year. If that was his 21st birthday then he would be elgible for the draft that just happened the month before.

I think as long as he turns 21 before or within 45 days after the draft he can be drafted.

quote:

Originally posted by HowUbe:
I think as long as he turns 21 before or within 45 days after the draft he can be drafted.

Sorry, Vance has already stated the 45 days requirement.

I'd say the best bet is to go to college to develop skills more and then advance in pro.

If you don't have a college degree and you set out to play pro ball, what if a career-ending injury happens? what will be the source of income?

just my 2 cents

quote:

Originally posted by ahs_bb '09:
I'd say the best bet is to go to college to develop skills more and then advance in pro.

If you don't have a college degree and you set out to play pro ball, what if a career-ending injury happens? what will be the source of income?



just my 2 cents

What if you get a career ending injury early in college? Hopefully you can pay to finish your education.

The MLB scholarship allows you to chase your dream and have college paid for in case of the career ending inury. I know a lot of kids don't use it but that's on them.

I also feel that after a few years on the road, sleeping in hotels after high school might help you grow up and decide what you really want to do after baseball.

Just my opinion though

Vance, to revisit this topic, let me restate my prior question and see if you'll answer it this time.

Did Andrew Miller make a mistake when he did not sign out of high school?

His "slot money" might've been as much as $800,000 then.

After three years enjoying college, he just got a minimum of $3.5 million, a guaranteed Sept. callup, and opportunities to earn millions more.

Maybe he gambled a bit on not getting an arm injury over the past 3 years. But if he gambled, it sure looks to me like he won big.

Basically, over the past three years he got an education, a trip to Omaha, and an additional $2.7 mill plus incentives and perks. Name me one kid who signed out of high school who got that much out of his first three years in the minors.

Andrew Miller also played two years on the cape and received honors for that and BA's College Player of the Year.
He is certainly did well for himself going to college first.
His height, his velocity, projectibility and being left handed didn't hurt either.

Midlo, you have a very valid point. Again, I have not put either choice in a negative lite. I merely said " If its about the money, go to school" Obviously it was about the money to Miller. Thats why he went to school.

Now let me ask you this. If Miller would have signed, he may have already been in the big leagues. Sure he is getting a September call up. But will he pitch? He can also go right back to A ball next spring too.

I do not have an issue with going to school, I went to school first! Again, I merely said if your sole purpose is to sign for ALOT of money then you should go to school. I also said if your sole purpose is to try and become a big leaguer then sign the contract. Thats all I said. Don't read anymore into it than that.

quote:

Name me one kid who signed out of high school who got that much out of his first three years in the minors.

Midlo, The list is long! Wonder how much money Griffey Jr has in his bank account? and wonder what a college degree would do for him financially? and wonder if he would prefer a Major League World Series or a college world series? Wonder what Robin Yount would say?

Look the list are long for both. Again, I have no issue other than if your intentions are to attend school and thats the bottom line then don't wait till the draft to tell someone. Tell that important piece of information in January. Thats all I would like.

One thing I see is an alarming number of arm problems/injuries for these kids be it out of HS or College.

Verlander just had to sit and he had acknwledged arm problems coming out of college

Look at Prior and Wood !!!

Are we rushing these kids to the bigs?---are they ready for the work and innings involved before they get their bodies ready for it ?

I am with you on this one TR. That's why, especially for a pitcher, it is a personal decision, as is the decision as to where you will play in college and what type of training and conditioning program you will be on while in college. And I don't get the philosophy of two way players in college, that's a killer if you ask me. Many of these pitchers were throwing mid-high 90's in college, HS with curveballs and sliders.
The pitfalls of a college pitcher, if you are good, is a heavy workload. Verlander, I do beleive had a huge workload in college, as did many others. I see the workload of some college pitchers, well over 100 innings in a season and then onto summer ball, back to work in fall practice, it takes a toll after a while.
Same for HS pitchers with heavy and frequent workloads and the pitches they throw.

This (pro or college choice out of HS) is an issue that many kids face one time. There is not a wrong answer. Some of the answers may have to do with the value of an education, or perhaps signing for bonus money, the desire to play college baseball, etc. What one kid decides to do may not be right for the neighbor kid, but that doesn't mean it is wrong.

The realities of being a pitcher means that at some point there will be health issues with the arm, whether that be elbow or shoulder.

The Verlander situation is not related at all to injury or soreness.....Leyland said he had planned to do this, especially with the big lead in the standings. Verlander's quote following his last game, regarding his arm, was that it felt the "best it had in a long time." You can expect Leyland to do it again with Verlander, Robertson, Bonderman, and even Miner again at least once more before the playoffs begin.

Leyland is trying to make sure his pitchers remain healthy....similar to what my son's college coach has done.......he hasn't thrown more than 100 pitches in a college game yet in almost fifty appearances, including several starts.

http://www.pgcrosschecker.com/draft/dr_06_06_29_signingbonuses.aspx


Click the above URL site and tell me what you think board. I'll let you be the judge and will remain mutual and unbiased. My wife says it's a no-brainer peace, Shep

PS-I couldn't resist. Don't know about ya'll, but I could pay for several college educations in top ten round money for most draft and signs I see here on PG Cross-Checkers list.

So much for the theory I have heard here which says, "only the top few picks are getting any worthwhile bonus money". Looking at this years drafts and actual signs, that appears to be a huge monetary misconception.
Peace Shep

Shep,
Again, you keep bringing up the money issue with the bonus bucks. Very few get rich from signing bonus, we all know the big $$ come later on, when and if you do make it. And signing bonus' are WAY down from what tehy used to be, the result, more and more going to college first, because it is a lot about the signing bonus to them and their parents.

How about this scenerio, which could be a very USUAL one. A HS player drafted in the 14th round, gets 140K, his college education would have been paid mostly by a great scholarship, to top 10 school. I haven't heard or seen his name mentioned once in three years, if he had gone to college you would know who he is, he was a top ranked player in HS. Good choice?

Obviously for HIM it was, he wanted to go pro more than go to college (this was not a pitcher by the way but a hitter who could have gotten his at bats in college), but for others, may not be the right choice.

Don't continue to place a price tag on it. Go back and read Gratefuls first paragraph.

And why would you have to pay for a college education when there is the MLB scholarship program, a good selling point for going pro, right?

College vs. pro is about knowing what you really want to do, though for a HS player never away from home may be difficult. It's important to talk about it early and NOT string others along until your name is called. If you really want to go pro and work, SIGN. But if you also want to go pro and earn most of your degree, experience college life and the college baseball experience, it CAN be accomplished just by seeing how many players ARE drafted out of college.

Discussion is good, always. It's important for parents and player to know the issues on both sides of the coin toss. However, this Is NOT a MLB or minor league website, this is a site where most of our players WILL go to college first. FYI, we didn't even have a thread for pro players, but many of the parents who first came here many moons ago, have college players who have gone pro.

I look upon the scout the same as a college recruiter, they are BOTH salesman, one selling their school the other selling his team. Each tends to leave out lots of the particulars in the visit. If it wasn't so confusing, people wouldn't be here asking questions. I found MOST scouts to be more up front than some college recruiters, but only because we had done our homework asked questions and I did here on teh HSBBW. MANY players I know who turned down going pro was NOT because they really wanted to go to college, but because they didn't get offered what they felt they were worth. A FEW players I know turned down really BIG money because they really wanted to go to college first.
That's why we have the HSBBW, so some of us can give information (not all good, not all bad) for those that have questions. I as a PARENT with a son who had to make a tough decision will always tell someone, if asked, the good and the bad on both sides. For mine, the college experience is turning out to be a great one and he is happy. I am sure if he had gone pro out of HS he would be happy as well. Did we want him to go to college first, yes, he was a very good student, if things would have been different, a fair student who didn't do well with a lesser oportunity, most probably he would have been drafted in the 6th, 7th round and signed. So I am NOT entirely PRO college, just want to let parents know there is an upside and a downside to any decision their son will make.

JMO

TPM says

quote:

College vs. pro is about knowing what you really want to do, though for a HS player never away from home may be difficult. If you really want to go pro and work, SIGN. But if you really want to go pro and earn most of your degree, experience college life and the college baseball eperience, it CAN be accomplished just by seeing how many players ARE drafted out of college.

Shep says Why risk losing bonus money offered on table now due to injury or stock going down while living college life and having to fullfill rigorous academic responsibilities. Let's face it, a great many student athletes are there for many other reasons with all the fraternities and campus life all around them. Why receive a degree and go through grueling and competetive interviews against hundreds of others for a job with no guarantee of even getting it if you don't have to. There is no guarantee of financial security upon graduation. Why go through the pain and hardship of passing up a lifetime of wages for many when it's right there lined up on the table in front of you. Imagine this, a 17-18 yr old draftee with 10,000 one-hundred dollar bills lined up in front of him being offered by a professional MLB team when he has depended on mom and dad all his life. He has an opportunity to give back to his parents and have a self-supporting life of his own. Family of his own with a lifetime of wages to get started with. You can't beat that! Isn't this the AMERICAN DREAMwe have all come to know and strive to achieve?? Turning down a lifetime of wages(MLB Substantial Bonus) is like winning a lottery and not claiming the prize if you turn it down if you are not already wealthy.

Go back up to my earlier post and click URL again for top ten rounds as a reminder.

I can give you dozens of examples of student/athlete college grads I know who have been interviewing with no success in finding job. These are good quality people I'm speaking of here who didn't party in college but didn't get a chance to even play baseball professionally as a late-rounder or sign as a free agent. Why not get the financial security for your "life" while you can?? Just think about the following: wife, kids, house, bank account, job, help my mom get a dishwasher or maybe even buy her a house for all she has done...Don't deny yourself this ONCE IN A LIFETIME OPPORTUNITY if that chance comes, take it! You can finance that 4 or 5 years of being a lifetime college student with no promises later with the interest from your bonus . Shep's .02