Question about lifting

MOMINTHESTANDS, you have a ton of reading/podcasts and people to follow on twitter on this one.  But generally, they lift more, heavier and younger than they used to.  Big/strong, flexible and agile are not mutually exclusive.

My son is a Jr in high school, and lifts heavy.  In college, they lift almost every day.  They lift on game day.  They lift the day they pitch.

It's really hard to be more specific, as general as the question is.  

How old is your son?

I hesitate to throw this out, but I'm going to anyway.

It does seem that doing squats has become more and more a staple of baseball lifting programs.  I know there are significant benefits.  The other side of the coin -  I am three days removed from seeing a very highly regarded sports ortho for knee issues.  Upon reading my athletic background and after reviewing x-rays, his first question was "did you do a lot of squats when training when you were younger?"...  ".. tends to cause a lot of long term damage".

Son just turned 17. He's 6'1-6'2 and about 185 LBS. He started doing strength and conditioning when he was 12. Just band work until he was 14. Then he started lifting with his HS team 2X a week for a about 4 months out of the year, freshman and sophomore year.

Last July we started him lifting with a trainer on his own. Trainer has outstanding credentials. He was lifting 3X per week until Oct, and then moved to 2X per week, as he picked up 2X per week with HS program. So 4X per week total in addition to doing 6 days of Driveline and hitting/fielding/pitching practice. He has been doing Driveline since October. Driveline initially wrote him a custom lifting program, trainer looked it over and said they were already doing most of what they had down for him. 

I went to the gym with him today. I never go. Trainer was excited because he had a PB in squats. It seemed like a lot of weight and it got me wondering....When does the benefit of lifting so much no longer outweigh the risk of injury? At what point do you say...this is enough weight? Is there such a thing? 

There are a lot of podcasts and opinions out there. Just wanted feedback from members who are further down the line. Thoughts? Opinions?

It is a very good question.  If you have a trainer with excellent credentials and, further, his program ties in to Driveline, I would say your player is relatively in a very good place.  There is always risk/reward to pushing to physical peak.   PB's are always a part of competitive sport.  I think you should ask the trainer exactly what you asked here.  I don't think it's an easy answer for even the most qualified experts and everyone will have some bias in their thinking.  We would all be curious as to what the expert's answer is these days.  Certainly they will start with "proper form is key" but push past that...  Assuming proper form is used, what long term concerns may still exist?  What chance of injury still exists?

I have mixed thoughts about lifting and weight training.  I would highly recommend he start off with a qualified trainer who has experience working with baseball players.  Different sports require focus on different muscles groups to strengthen.  Develop proper techniques, understand the objectives, and lift within your own means.  I've seen teammates of son who even though trained with a qualified trainer, they strained/damaged different parts of their body.  One ended sitting out a season, 3 others anywhere from a few weeks to months.  That being said, we held out son from serious weight lifting until summer before his senior year.  This was based on recommendation from a sports surgeon.  Call it coincidence or whatever, his senior year (after lifting) he had a memorable baseball season (all-league, all-state, all-district).  Part of me wishes he started lifting earlier, part of me is thankful he had no injuries from lifting his high school career.  It all worked out for the best, trust in the process.

Cabbagedad... I think you are 100% correct. I was hesitant to even ask the question, given it's rhetorical in nature and every athlete is an individual. I think it was posed more in the thinking that it didn't used to be this way for baseball players. Football yes...baseball no. 

I would only be kidding myself if I thought my son would pull back now... no matter what I said!

I should delve deeper with his trainer...but I'm not sure i will get much past the "proper form, and there is risk in sports" answer. My Dad played soccer and baseball at a high level in college. Played tennis and golf for decades. He can no longer lift his arms now due to frozen shoulder. Scar tissue, pain. Been this way for 10 years. His knees are stiff and sore everyday, as well as his hips. .....I fear it's the price athletes pay in the end.

Trust in Him...Yes his trainer is experienced with baseball players. Teams from all over come to train with him in the off season. He works with a ton of college athletes. We have seen kids suffer injuries over the past couple of years from lifting...but they were all doing it on their own, unsupervised, which is why we sought our this trainer. We have always been cautious with him. 

I am happy to hear it worked out so well for your son. It's a blast to watch them play isn't it?

Mominthestands posted:

...My Dad played soccer and baseball at a high level in college. Played tennis and golf for decades. He can no longer lift his arms now due to frozen shoulder. Scar tissue, pain. Been this way for 10 years. His knees are stiff and sore everyday, as well as his hips. .....I fear it's the price athletes pay in the end.

Whew... had you not mentioned soccer, I was starting to worry that I had a daughter I didn't know about.  I fit the description of your dad in way too many ways 

CabbageDad....

MOMINTHESTANDS, sounds like I should be asking you for advice!

If you are lifting with good form, squatting and deadlifting heavy weights shouldn't be an issue.

In regards to squatting, I'd be more concerned about shoulder issues than knee issues for a teenager. A low bar back squat is tough on the shoulders. If you look at what Cressey and others like that do it's usually front or safety bar squats. They are also big on rotational and single leg work. If you want to take a deep dive, check out "The Science and Practice Of Strength Training"

I do think there is a point of diminishing returns. If you can deadlift 500lb, does getting to 600lb really benefit you based on the risk in getting there or time/effort it takes?

Go44dad posted:

  In college, they lift almost every day.  They lift on game day.  They lift the day they pitch.

 

^^THIS 

Get comfortable with 5am lifts in college.

It's all about form, proper weight and tempo. My son went to college not really doing serious weightlifting in HS with Baseball (no real guidance <main issue to be aware of in HS>. I paid a former D1 power pitcher $25 per w/o to work out with him, he took to it like a duck in water and was working out 3 times per week minimum. Once he saw the results on the mound, he was a believer. All that being said, he gets to college and isn't a a huge fan of the strength coach, more of an Olympic Sport Coach they shared with other sports, didn't like his rules, the way he calls him out, confronts him on his form, weight selection and attitude at times. 

Fast forward to sophmore and Junior year, he was all in on the workouts, a leader in the room and even though one of the smallest statured there, had more weight lift production than alot of the bigger guys. Became the first NSCA All American in the baseball program's history as a junior and recently referred to his strength coach a few nights ago as he is in prospect camp with the Mets in Port St Lucie and was talking about their workouts, his familiarity with them and the fact that due to Clemson and the program and the workouts he was involved in....he was leading his group of professional baseball players during their workouts because they were completely new to the Mets and their groups of guys in camp . He's growing up and is a professional....it's crazy. 

All that being said, it was one of the most important aspects of his development, it isn't for everyone though. Lots of guys just don't have the drive to get the results they could if they worked harder.

Mine didn't lift much before his sophomore year in HS. But he caught and pitched, and his baseball coach made him go out for cross country. On the plus side, it developed his legs like no other and he got stronger on the mound and behind the plate, and so far hasn't had any trouble with his arm or his legs. On the minus side, it's now hard to find pants that fit his tiny waist and enormous thighs.

If your goal is to compete at the highest level in today's game it is an absolute definite to be involved in the programs you describe or something similar. The key is learning the proper movements with weight training to reduce the chances of injury. It sounds like you have this base covered, so well done! There is no reward without risk & yes there are risks involved but that comes with the territory. The players now are bigger stronger & faster than ever & the only way to compete & succeed is to incorporate a well thought out, complimentary lifting plan in the mix. My thoughts are that the in season program should be more of a maintenance goal versus the offseason to make explosive strength gains.

It would also be a bit different format for let's say a starting pitcher only versus a position player or a 2 way player. As the PO, you can crush the workout on the days after your start & leave time to recover. As a 2 way or position player, the goal is to maintain or gain without creating fatigue for game performance. More difficult balance.

NYCDAD....Yes, that was what I was wondering as well. At what point are there diminishing returns? And do you get to a point when you can't get any further? Does risk of injury go up because at some point you are no longer stressing the body for gains, but instead just stressing the body? If Michael Phelps continued to train his body in and out of the pool, would he drop more time, or would his body simply adapt and then start to wear down eventually?

SHOVEIT4KS....Thank you for telling me about your son's journey. It is very encouraging and was what I hoped I would hear about. You are correct, that all of this comes with risk of injury. So, I asked the question......when is it too much? I think you answered that...... you just keep working and understand the risk goes up along with the returns...but that there may not be an answer. It may come down to drive, genetics, luck...

Everything son is doing has been initiated by him. Lifting, Driveline...all of it. We are doing what we can to support it all. As a parent, you have a gut instinct. You can hear so much noise from so many sources, that it can drown out the gut. Mine told me that baseball players are athletes first and players after.  That you need to put in just as much time working on the athlete, as you do the skill of the player. That in todays game you have no choice but to have both or you will at some point be left behind. I love sports, love watching him play, but I want to make sure that I am doing what I can to be educated.....and hopefully, if possible, reduce risks involved. 

Congratulations on your son's success. What a wonderful ride!!

IOWAMOM23....I can totally relate to the big thigh, smaller waist issue! LOL Again with drowning out the noise...have heard from so many...do not let baseball players run long distances and instead focus on being explosive. Happy to hear it has worked out well for your son. Seems it always comes down to what works for the individual!

Steve A....WIth son being two way I think it will be a challenge. He is a starting pitcher and will start at SS when not on the mound. Trainer said he would decrease volume, but not load so much. Fewer reps with just as heavy weight with the goal of maintaining strength throughout season, but not building like in the off season. I could not agree more about the players these days. To get to a high level, I don't think these things are a choice. Have seen so many good players over the years fall off. They didn't want it enough to put in the work.

Mom-I-T-S,

Mine is an identical 2 way. The danger is mostly with the arm in this scenario. So let's say he gets a start on Tuesday & you play again on Thursday. Does he lift on Wednesday? Is he going to play SS on Thursday after throwing 5 innings Tuesday ?(hopefully not). These decisions are critical to maintaining health & the coach really needs to be on the same page with the overall plan. There has to be communication & common sense applied which can be occasionally scarce depending on the situation & how solid the coaching staff is. Do not be afraid to suggest to him to inform the coach of what he is doing with the lifts & try to get information on how these situations will be handled during the season. The discussion needs to come from him, not the parents.

The only scenario where I would remotely consider stepping in would be if he is being really taxed on the mound & then run out to SS when he should be recovering or playing 1B to give his arm a break. Bug him about how his arm feels during this process & its ok to be a pain & a nag about it. He should be greatly reducing the overhead lifts during the season for sure.

Check into a MarcPro Device for arm recovery. It is worth every penny.  

Mominthestands posted:

 

Steve A....WIth son being two way I think it will be a challenge. He is a starting pitcher and will start at SS when not on the mound. Trainer said he would decrease volume, but not load so much. Fewer reps with just as heavy weight with the goal of maintaining strength throughout season, but not building like in the off season. I could not agree more about the players these days. To get to a high level, I don't think these things are a choice. Have seen so many good players over the years fall off. They didn't want it enough to put in the work.

I am sharing my background only so you know that I have a related degree and experience. I have a graduate degree in performance enhancement and injury prevention. I have worked with both HS football and baseball players over the years. Right now, I am 100% focused on working with our HS baseball team , all of whom are what we like to call overhead athletes.

I highlighted one paragraph in which you respond to Steve A., because it says a lot about the quality of your son's coach. His recommendation is spot on. In-season training should always be about less volume while maintaining the intensity (less reps but still using heavy weight). The only thing I would disagree with is that most HS athletes, when focusing on intensity, should see gains made even during the season. To keep it simple, gains can still be made due to a nervous system that is still developing and getting more efficient.

In regards to your big question; yes, there is definitely a point of diminishing returns but at the same, I would say there are very few high school athletes who get to this point before they graduate. It is all about participating in a well planned, comprehensive training program that includes a focus on mobility, stability (this includes core), and all phases of the strength-speed continuum. I am attaching a link to video by Eric Cressey, to help anyone who is interested in understanding the strength-speed continuum.

I will second an earlier comment in regards to back squatting. For an OH athlete, the concern is more about the stress placed on the shoulders. This is why you will see numerous videos of baseball players training with a yoke bar or front squatting. I am also a big fan of trap bar deadlifts. When these exercises are performed correctly and supervised by the right coach, the risk is minimal.

No offense to anyone who shared stories of adults suffering from wear and tear injuries but as I just stated, it is all about technique. Squatting weight, when performed properly, should help to protect the knees and back because it is building strength in the posterior chain. If technique is flawless and there are issues, it is more then likely an existing imbalance or previous injury. In the case, exercise should be regressed using exercises like DB or KB squat with a focus on hinging at the hip to activate posterior chain. In addition, we use glute bridges, both double and single-leg, to activate the glutes prior to practice, games, and training.

If anyone ever has questions, feel free to message me. I am not an expert yet but I follow and learn from the right people. When I cannot answer, I will find the answer or point you in the right direction.

Link to EC strength-speed video

I'll also add, my kids have some Kinstretch movements as part of their workouts. I know this is something else Cressey has his guys do. It's worked well for my kids (me as well!). My son even does some of when warming up to pitch.

nycdad posted:

I'll also add, my kids have some Kinstretch movements as part of their workouts. I know this is something else Cressey has his guys do. It's worked well for my kids (me as well!). My son even does some of when warming up to pitch.

Really like the Kinstretch CAR's but cannot go there right now with our guys because we are still doing winter workouts with a large group. Once we finalize rosters, might be something I add with V group. Definitely awesome stuff for private instruction and for us older folks! 

My son has lifted off and on for a few years, usually for 3 months during the winter. He's never been hurt doing it, and back squats 405x5 below parralel. He's straight bar benched, much to the chagrin of various well meaning parents, and never has had a problem with that either. Tyler O Neill of the Cardinals has a video of him benching 405 circulating on Twitter right now. If you don't want to lift heavy, and put on mass, you'll be passed by other players that aren't doing estrogenic workouts with some yuppie personal trainer. (Usually a lot of bodyweight, med balls and bands)

Pretty certain Cressey who incorporates medballs, and bands into his baseball players workouts would disagree with you. 

My opinion is until you lift 300 pounds don't worry about too much, losing flexibility, wear and tear.

After getting to 300 the carryover to baseball is getting smaller and depending on your position you can think about doing more functional training or bulking up a little more.

But worrying about functionality and other stuff when you lift 150 doesn't make much sense.

Do you want to hit the ball hard?  Do you want to throw harder?  Do you want to run faster?  Do you want to react quicker?  If the answer is yes then you need to lift weights.  There's no way to do those things without lifting weights.

Lifting weights is a physical activity and carries risk just like any other physical activity.  Even if you do everything correctly there is still a risk just like throwing a baseball is a risk.  But if you want to be the best you can be you will lift weights.  You have to do your due diligence and research what is best and how to do it safely.

Lifting weights is not the big evil thing some people think it is. 

nycdad posted:

Pretty certain Cressey who incorporates medballs, and bands into his baseball players workouts would disagree with you. 

Spot on! A comprehensive program is what parents should be looking for in choosing the right training center or coach. Just lifting heavy weight, using core lifts, is not the answer. When not addressing stability and the smaller muscles, the body will compensate. The human body works very hard to protect itself so if a particular muscle or muscle group is not firing, another muscle or muscles will kick in to compensate. The result is tight/overactive muscles and inhibited/weak muscles. A recipe for injury at some point. 

Have a player right now who is shutdown due to weak posterior cuff muscles. The supraspinatus is so weak that his anterior deltoid is having to compensate. Performed a couple of basic PT tests with arm elevated and he could not resist two fingers of pressure. If he would have continued throwing, there is no doubt that he would have eventually needed surgery. He was lifting at a local 24-hour fitness on his own with lots of bench pressing, overhead pressing, etc. 

Coach2709 wrote, "You have to do your due diligence and research what is best and how to do it safely."

Amen to that brother!  And that is exactly where the disconnect occurs.  At most HSs there is no strength and conditioning coach.  There are not different programs designed for athletes in all types of sports.  There is a "one size fits all" weight lifting program designed for football players that is imposed onto athletes in other sports and often overseen by a football coach - if it is overseen at all.  For baseball players it can be a recipe for disaster.

Dominik85 posted:

My opinion is until you lift 300 pounds don't worry about too much, losing flexibility, wear and tear.

After getting to 300 the carryover to baseball is getting smaller and depending on your position you can think about doing more functional training or bulking up a little more.

But worrying about functionality and other stuff when you lift 150 doesn't make much sense.

Agree and disagree. I don't think a coach can create a specific number for all athletes. HS athletes are in different stages of physiological development, so you can have a 16-year old in a 14-year old body and a 16-year old in and 18-year old body. There are going to be, for example, HS players that can safely deadlift 300+ without any risks, including loss of flexibility, mobility, etc. As I said in my original response, there is a point of diminishing returns but that should be individualized.

Steve A...Son's Varsity coach is great. Played for him since freshman year. He is a former pitcher himself, and very protective of young arms. It certainly gets tricky though when you are 2-way. He does have a Marc Pro and it is amazing! Expensive, but worth every penny 

COACHLD...Thank you for all your input. Good to hear that you agree with son's trainer. What he probably said is that the "goal" is to maintain and not build. I would imagine that there will still be some gains, even during "in" season? I agree about the concern being more to shoulders and not knees. Recently read a study about how being able to squat 1.5x or greater your bodyweight reduces risk of ACL injury. Also, all that you said about building the chain is also what his trainer talks about. I could not agree more. I have seen kids suffer growth plate fractures, tendon tears ect..because the surrounding muscles were weak.

NYCDAD...We are not all that familiar with Cressey. We have been Driveline folks, and from what I have read, there are a lot of the same principles incorporated into the philosophy?

2019OF.....Good to hear that your son has not had any issues. I am sure you hear a lot of noise about straight bar benching. Our son does not do it, but we know many kids that do without issue. We did have one friend whose kid tore the labrum in both shoulders, but we think he was going for a PB and it was just too much weight.

DOMINIK85....I would agree. My original question was about diminishing returns once you are already lifting heavy. So, I think in part you answered that question. Once you get above a certain weight, injury risk goes up and what are the gains worth? Do you lose flexibility, especially if you are a pitcher? If you continue to push on with heavier and heavier loads, there has to be a wall hit eventually and what is the goal to begin with? Is it to lift as much as you possibly can? Or is it to hit home runs or throw a 90+mph fastball? Son is already over 300 at this point, both front and back squat.

COACH2709...I could not agree more. Lifting weights and playing baseball, especially at a high level, is a must. You have to lift heavy and get stronger in order to create explosiveness. Fast twitch certainly helps as well. I think given the atmosphere of baseball right now, the use of technology for analysis.... it's like the wild west.  Without decades of data...it's all an unknown. We still don't know how to prevent TJ. The human body is an amazing and frustrating machine. Adaptation of the human body has been seen over the past century. When a time existed where no one thought it possible to break a 4 minute mile...now HS kids are doing every year. Where can we get to? How much can you push the body?

adbono posted:

Coach2709 wrote, "You have to do your due diligence and research what is best and how to do it safely."

Amen to that brother!  And that is exactly where the disconnect occurs.  At most HSs there is no strength and conditioning coach.  There are not different programs designed for athletes in all types of sports.  There is a "one size fits all" weight lifting program designed for football players that is imposed onto athletes in other sports and often overseen by a football coach - if it is overseen at all.  For baseball players it can be a recipe for disaster.

So you are saying that any training program designed or supervised by a football coach is bad?! 

Maybe not every coach but as a long-time football/strength coach, I tend to agree. When I finished my grad degree, I contacted and visited several dominant football programs in the state, spending time observing their training programs. I was surprised to say the least. Just flat out bad programming with a lot poor technique. It was what motivated me to do a better job.

Our baseball HC reminds our players regularly that they need to be thankful to have someone dedicated to improving baseball performance. There are very few HS programs in our neck of the woods, that have someone dedicated to just the baseball program.

Mominthestands posted:

COACHLD...Thank you for all your input. Good to hear that you agree with son's trainer. What he probably said is that the "goal" is to maintain and not build. I would imagine that there will still be some gains, even during "in" season? I agree about the concern being more to shoulders and not knees. Recently read a study about how being able to squat 1.5x or greater your bodyweight reduces risk of ACL injury. Also, all that you said about building the chain is also what his trainer talks about. I could not agree more. I have seen kids suffer growth plate fractures, tendon tears ect..because the surrounding muscles were weak.

 

 

I would bet, based on trainer's comments in regard to fewer reps with same intensity, that he will make some gains. There is no doubt that lifting heavy weight strengthens connective tissue which includes tendons and ligaments. I also am a big fan of players setting a DL goal of 1.5-2.0x bodyweight! Sounds like your son is very fortunate to have a parent who is educated and a trainer who is doing things the right way!

adbono posted:

- if it is overseen at all.  

Freshman year my son started going to the baseball lifts at school.  I told him I didn't think it was a good idea to be working out unsupervised.  He said "Its not unsupervised - the juniors and seniors tell us what to do". 

K9 posted:

adbono posted:

- if it is overseen at all.  

Freshman year my son started going to the baseball lifts at school.  I told him I didn't think it was a good idea to be working out unsupervised.  He said "Its not unsupervised - the juniors and seniors tell us what to do". 

This is exactly why I decided to make move from football to baseball. Coaches who allow this to happen, should be ashamed of themselves. I am so tired of hearing coaches talk about work ethic and commitment, when they choose to allow these types of things to go on. How can coaches ask for commitment when they are not committed. There is no excuse! I have optional workouts for our players early morning so that I can be in the weightroom with them, monitoring technique, weight, etc.

coachld posted:

K9 posted:

adbono posted:

- if it is overseen at all.  

Freshman year my son started going to the baseball lifts at school.  I told him I didn't think it was a good idea to be working out unsupervised.  He said "Its not unsupervised - the juniors and seniors tell us what to do". 

This is exactly why I decided to make move from football to baseball. Coaches who allow this to happen, should be ashamed of themselves. I am so tired of hearing coaches talk about work ethic and commitment, when they choose to allow these types of things to go on. How can coaches ask for commitment when they are not committed. There is no excuse! I have optional workouts for our players early morning so that I can be in the weightroom with them, monitoring technique, weight, etc.

You are a rare exception in today’s HS coaching world and the game of baseball could use more people like you. 

I became a head coach again last year after a long time away.  I've been at this school for 11 years.  My first four years I was an assistant after leaving a HC job in KY for 9 years.  But there was a 5 year gap where I didn't coach baseball due to me taking over the athletic director position.  Our kids were embarrassingly weak and the first thing I told them was they better hit the weight room.  I'm lucky because my pitching coach is our head football coach and he runs our weight room.  He follows the Bigger Faster Stronger program for our entire athletic department while making auxiliary lifts sport specific.  It has worked wonders for our entire athletic program and especially our baseball team.  

Today we had first day of tryouts and this sophomore we had last year is the epitome of what you want to see in terms of what a weight room will do for you.  Today he ran a 7.75 and 7.88 sixty (no that's not that great but he was close to a 9 last year).  The ball jumps off his bat SOOOO much better this year.  He will be on JV again this year but I have little doubt he will replace my senior first baseman in 2020.

My shortstop is a senior and his freshman and sophomore year was under the previous HC who wouldn't let the guys lift.  He bought in with the weight room and he is without a doubt our best player.  He's going to a very good JUCO but I think if he was with me as a freshman he could have went DI because the jumps he made were crazy good.  He just started too late.