I think a common practice for many of these programs that over recruit is telling players that they would benefit more from attending the local Juco and get in more playing time rather than sitting on the bench.
TPM posted:roothog66 posted:There were also five or six juniors who signed after the draft and several players will transfer out because of a lack of playing time and there will be a handful of injuries and players who will red shirt. The numbers always seem to work out.
Red shirt players are included in the 35 man roster.
True and I knew that - my bad.
As to Arkansas, you see a LOT of transfers out every year and, if you look at there signing classes, they are almost all on the roster their freshman years PLUS a decent number of JC transfers into the program that aren't even accounted for in the above numbers. They always seem to make it work somehow.
roothog66 posted:TPM posted:roothog66 posted:There were also five or six juniors who signed after the draft and several players will transfer out because of a lack of playing time and there will be a handful of injuries and players who will red shirt. The numbers always seem to work out.
Red shirt players are included in the 35 man roster.
True and I knew that - my bad.
As to Arkansas, you see a LOT of transfers out every year and, if you look at there signing classes, they are almost all on the roster their freshman years PLUS a decent number of JC transfers into the program that aren't even accounted for in the above numbers. They always seem to make it work somehow.
Not to quibble too much, Root, but the two underlined parts are what people worry about -- sure, it "works" in that the NCAA rules are adhered to, and they have a great team . . . but the first underlined part is I think what most people mean when they talk about over-recruiting.
2019Dad posted:roothog66 posted:TPM posted:roothog66 posted:There were also five or six juniors who signed after the draft and several players will transfer out because of a lack of playing time and there will be a handful of injuries and players who will red shirt. The numbers always seem to work out.
Red shirt players are included in the 35 man roster.
True and I knew that - my bad.
As to Arkansas, you see a LOT of transfers out every year and, if you look at there signing classes, they are almost all on the roster their freshman years PLUS a decent number of JC transfers into the program that aren't even accounted for in the above numbers. They always seem to make it work somehow.
Not to quibble too much, Root, but the two underlined parts are what people worry about -- sure, it "works" in that the NCAA rules are adhered to, and they have a great team . . . but the first underlined part is I think what most people mean when they talk about over-recruiting.
Sure, but if you sign onto a P5 school or even a very good mid-major and DON'T realize that you are in heavy competition for playing time, then you either haven't done your homework or your ego is a big problem. I guess the question is, do the programs like Arkansas or Vandy over-recruit with the idea that they are going to push guys out or do they over-recruit because they know they will lose guys to transfer who aren't getting the PT they'd like?
TPM posted:GaryMe posted:Sometimes admission is tougher at state schools for in-state kids...schools like those out of state tuition dollars.
This is not correct. Can you show supporting information on your statement?
Prove it's wrong before saying it is. I posit that a fair number of qualified students who would be paying in-state rate are not admitted to state schools in the name of "diversity," which means that they really like to bring students in from out of state for the increased revenue and being able to say they have a student body that is represented by kids from X number of states, countries, etc. Not that those students aren't qualified for admission, I'm just saying you're a fool if you don't think the financial aspect of it doesn't play a factor in the overall make up of not only the student body, but the funding of state schools in general.
If it didn't matter, why would they charge a different tuition rate for kids who live out of state or country?
Vandy is in a difficult spot. 5 sr's want to return for their sr season. 3-4 they thought might go in the draft showed up. They started out with 43, after the draftees left and the freshman came in. I understand 1 transferred and one may have a medical redshirt so that number goes to 42..... a far cry from 35 . I guess the fall will decide who stays and who goes.
bacdorslider posted:Vandy is in a difficult spot. 5 sr's want to return for their sr season. 3-4 they thought might go in the draft showed up. They started out with 43, after the draftees left and the freshman came in. I understand 1 transferred and one may have a medical redshirt so that number goes to 42..... a far cry from 35 . I guess the fall will decide who stays and who goes.
Out with the old...in with the new. If you weren't playing prior to this fall and they have new blood coming in, the writing is on the wall unless you start doing something they haven't seen in the past years.
agreed
bacdorslider posted:Vandy is in a difficult spot. 5 sr's want to return for their sr season. 3-4 they thought might go in the draft showed up. They started out with 43, after the draftees left and the freshman came in. I understand 1 transferred and one may have a medical redshirt so that number goes to 42..... a far cry from 35 . I guess the fall will decide who stays and who goes.
I don't think that Vandy is a in a difficult spot, or Arkansas, or any other school. It's the guys who are in danger of not making the team who are in the difficult spot.
Well if you have 41-42 and you have to get to 35 that's not good for a jr. - sr. that cannot or did not contribute.
bacdorslider posted:Well if you have 41-42 and you have to get to 35 that's not good for a jr. - sr. that cannot or did not contribute.
and perhaps they didn't contribute because they were behind someone who was raking. Team batting average was .269 and you had guys batting below the Mendoza line getting 161 ABs...so who knows what the criteria is at Vandy
Curious because I do not know the answer.
What happens if all these kids who signed their NLI show up in the fall. The returning juniors and seniors, who were cut, choose to remain at the school without baseball, but still on their scholarship?
A senior getting cut from a team might not want to transfer at that point. Friends, classes, housing, etc.
The players would still count against the 11.7 and the 35 man roster.
How does their tuition get paid for and how do coaches go about this? I would assume this is very rare but you can't tell kids they can't attend school there anymore.
PABaseball posted:Curious because I do not know the answer.
What happens if all these kids who signed their NLI show up in the fall. The returning juniors and seniors, who were cut, choose to remain at the school without baseball, but still on their scholarship?
A senior getting cut from a team might not want to transfer at that point. Friends, classes, housing, etc.
The players would still count against the 11.7 and the 35 man roster.
How does their tuition get paid for and how do coaches go about this? I would assume this is very rare but you can't tell kids they can't attend school there anymore.
That is a great question, and I would love to see what happens when a senior returns to a P5 school and isn't exactly welcomed back by the team, and they are obligated to pay scholarship $$$ to him. Would one of those new NLI guys get cut? That would really be an interesting scenario.
GaryMe posted:PABaseball posted:Curious because I do not know the answer.
What happens if all these kids who signed their NLI show up in the fall. The returning juniors and seniors, who were cut, choose to remain at the school without baseball, but still on their scholarship?
A senior getting cut from a team might not want to transfer at that point. Friends, classes, housing, etc.
The players would still count against the 11.7 and the 35 man roster.
How does their tuition get paid for and how do coaches go about this? I would assume this is very rare but you can't tell kids they can't attend school there anymore.
That is a great question, and I would love to see what happens when a senior returns to a P5 school and isn't exactly welcomed back by the team, and they are obligated to pay scholarship $$$ to him. Would one of those new NLI guys get cut? That would really be an interesting scenario.
I’m thinking the senior gets assigned to run foul poles all practice, every practice, is ordered to report for special 5 am workouts, and that coaches will be on the lookout for the slightest rule infractions as an excuse to kick him off the team.
Chico Escuela posted:GaryMe posted:PABaseball posted:Curious because I do not know the answer.
What happens if all these kids who signed their NLI show up in the fall. The returning juniors and seniors, who were cut, choose to remain at the school without baseball, but still on their scholarship?
A senior getting cut from a team might not want to transfer at that point. Friends, classes, housing, etc.
The players would still count against the 11.7 and the 35 man roster.
How does their tuition get paid for and how do coaches go about this? I would assume this is very rare but you can't tell kids they can't attend school there anymore.
That is a great question, and I would love to see what happens when a senior returns to a P5 school and isn't exactly welcomed back by the team, and they are obligated to pay scholarship $$$ to him. Would one of those new NLI guys get cut? That would really be an interesting scenario.
I’m thinking the senior gets assigned to run foul poles all practice, every practice, is ordered to report for special 5 am workouts, and that coaches will be on the lookout for the slightest rule infractions as an excuse to kick him off the team.
And that behavior probably stops or coach is likely fired after the kid and his family threaten to report him to the NCAA and sue him for harassment. That would never fly, IMO. It wasn't the kid's idea to promise a 4-year guaranteed scholarship. It was the school/coach.
And do you really think a coach would take it out on another human being with corporal punishment because he couldn't do basic math and project the probability of over committing his funds? If so, that is the saddest thing I've heard all day.
And this is why i dont think that all "signees" actually sign a binding NLI as I wouldnt think you could actually over commit the number of available scholarships. I think many kids "commit/sign" to walk on with no athletic money and thus no actual NLI or financial arrangement between player and school.
FriarFred posted:And this is why i dont think that all "signees" actually sign a binding NLI as I wouldnt think you could actually over commit the number of available scholarships. I think many kids "commit/sign" to walk on with no athletic money and thus no actual NLI or financial arrangement between player and school.
Agreed
FriarFred posted:And this is why i dont think that all "signees" actually sign a binding NLI as I wouldnt think you could actually over commit the number of available scholarships. I think many kids "commit/sign" to walk on with no athletic money and thus no actual NLI or financial arrangement between player and school.
I “think” over committing started when scholarships weren’t guaranteed for four years. Coaches could make the numbers work based on who they wouldn’t keep.
I also “think” some schools have certain advantages with endowments, needs-based aid, common merit money, etc. so they don’t always have to tap into the money allocated specifically for baseball.
Lastly, the recent trend, until this year, was that top ten round draft picks were signing at a very high clip so I do think that schools sometimes over commit expecting/hoping that they will lose a few kids to the draft.
hshuler posted:FriarFred posted:And this is why i dont think that all "signees" actually sign a binding NLI as I wouldnt think you could actually over commit the number of available scholarships. I think many kids "commit/sign" to walk on with no athletic money and thus no actual NLI or financial arrangement between player and school.
I “think” over committing started when scholarships weren’t guaranteed for four years. Coaches could make the numbers work based on who they wouldn’t keep.
I also “think” some schools have certain advantages with endowments, needs-based aid, common merit money, etc. so they don’t always have to tap into the money allocated specifically for baseball.
Lastly, the recent trend, until this year, was that top ten round draft picks were signing at a very high clip so I do think that schools sometimes over commit expecting/hoping that they will lose a few kids to the draft.
Hshuler, if they aren't using athletic aid, then an NLI is not in play, right? So the fact that some schools have larger endowments, need-based aid and common merit money doesn't factor in to the number of kids that Arkansas claimed they signed to NLIs.
If they claimed to sign 20 guys to NLIs, then they are saying they are committing a minimum of 5 complete scholarships (assuming all 20 get the minimum 25%) for those players, and since it's a power 5 they are making that commitment for 4-years. Assuming full funding, that leaves 6.7 scholarships to divvy up among the remaining 7 scholarship eligible players on the roster (again, assuming minimum offers to newbies). If you have 7 returners who are getting full rides, them some happy players. I can see where this might actually be a good strategy to use the scholarships in this manner, and then use the incentive of increasing to a full ride in years 2 and beyond based on performance.
I can't imagine any school WANTS their signees to be lost to the draft, so you completely lost me there. Unless you are referring to currently rostered guys
GaryMe posted:Chico Escuela posted:GaryMe posted:PABaseball posted:Curious because I do not know the answer.
What happens if all these kids who signed their NLI show up in the fall. The returning juniors and seniors, who were cut, choose to remain at the school without baseball, but still on their scholarship?
A senior getting cut from a team might not want to transfer at that point. Friends, classes, housing, etc.
The players would still count against the 11.7 and the 35 man roster.
How does their tuition get paid for and how do coaches go about this? I would assume this is very rare but you can't tell kids they can't attend school there anymore.
That is a great question, and I would love to see what happens when a senior returns to a P5 school and isn't exactly welcomed back by the team, and they are obligated to pay scholarship $$$ to him. Would one of those new NLI guys get cut? That would really be an interesting scenario.
I’m thinking the senior gets assigned to run foul poles all practice, every practice, is ordered to report for special 5 am workouts, and that coaches will be on the lookout for the slightest rule infractions as an excuse to kick him off the team.
And that behavior probably stops or coach is likely fired after the kid and his family threaten to report him to the NCAA and sue him for harassment. That would never fly, IMO. It wasn't the kid's idea to promise a 4-year guaranteed scholarship. It was the school/coach.
And do you really think a coach would take it out on another human being with corporal punishment because he couldn't do basic math and project the probability of over committing his funds? If so, that is the saddest thing I've heard all day.
I was being hyperbolic. But even so, I think your tone is a bit over the top—did you think I personally insulted you somehow?
Yes, I really do believe a coaching staff mIght try to make life unpleasant for a player they wanted to get rid of. No, I have no personal knowledge. I have heard stories of big time programs doing some pretty callous things to their athletes; but they are just that—stories. Other than your faith that all coaches would act with goodwill, do you have evidence I am wrong?
As for a lawsuit: it would be hard to prove anything if a staff were even a little careful about how they hazed an athlete. People get fired from jobs every day in circumstances that they think were discriminatory, but a tiny percentage of those situations actually result in litigation. It also would be very hard to justify the cost of a suit to recover 25% of one year’s college tuition. (And I say that as someone who has been a licensed attorney for over 20 years.)
GaryMe posted:hshuler posted:FriarFred posted:And this is why i dont think that all "signees" actually sign a binding NLI as I wouldnt think you could actually over commit the number of available scholarships. I think many kids "commit/sign" to walk on with no athletic money and thus no actual NLI or financial arrangement between player and school.
I “think” over committing started when scholarships weren’t guaranteed for four years. Coaches could make the numbers work based on who they wouldn’t keep.
I also “think” some schools have certain advantages with endowments, needs-based aid, common merit money, etc. so they don’t always have to tap into the money allocated specifically for baseball.
Lastly, the recent trend, until this year, was that top ten round draft picks were signing at a very high clip so I do think that schools sometimes over commit expecting/hoping that they will lose a few kids to the draft.
Hshuler, if they aren't using athletic aid, then an NLI is not in play, right? So the fact that some schools have larger endowments, need-based aid and common merit money doesn't factor in to the number of kids that Arkansas claimed they signed to NLIs.
If they claimed to sign 20 guys to NLIs, then they are saying they are committing a minimum of 5 complete scholarships (assuming all 20 get the minimum 25%) for those players, and since it's a power 5 they are making that commitment for 4-years. Assuming full funding, that leaves 6.7 scholarships to divvy up among the remaining 7 scholarship eligible players on the roster (again, assuming minimum offers to newbies). If you have 7 returners who are getting full rides, them some happy players. I can see where this might actually be a good strategy to use the scholarships in this manner, and then use the incentive of increasing to a full ride in years 2 and beyond based on performance.
I can't imagine any school WANTS their signees to be lost to the draft, so you completely lost me there. Unless you are referring to currently rostered guys
You’re absolutely correct. No athletic scholarship, no NLI.
FYI - I meant “wants” to lose a player to the draft only when you’ve over committed.
Example - Kid gets drafted in the top ten rounds this year and the coach calls him as wishes him luck in pro ball. He never asked if he was coming to school.
Why? Over committed.
I posed the question assuming the players were receiving athletic aid (scholarship). In the case of Arkansas...they have 23 players committed (PG) and 20 signing NLIs (scholarships).
The incoming players are putting their deposits down months before the MLB draft. They might even have orientation prior to the draft depending on the school. Meaning most of them know where they will be living on campus and have possibly registered for classes (does this mean they are officially enrolled in the school?) Sure you can cut a kid, but you cannot tell them they are not welcome to enroll in the school. Even so, isn't this an NCAA violation? More $$$ committed than allotted. Even if these kids are left to duke it out in the fall...how is the bill being paid for? Hazing/forcing kids out of the program aside, the tuition needs to be paid.
Now it goes from a player problem to a coach/school problem.
Chico Escuela posted:GaryMe posted:Chico Escuela posted:GaryMe posted:PABaseball posted:Curious because I do not know the answer.
What happens if all these kids who signed their NLI show up in the fall. The returning juniors and seniors, who were cut, choose to remain at the school without baseball, but still on their scholarship?
A senior getting cut from a team might not want to transfer at that point. Friends, classes, housing, etc.
The players would still count against the 11.7 and the 35 man roster.
How does their tuition get paid for and how do coaches go about this? I would assume this is very rare but you can't tell kids they can't attend school there anymore.
That is a great question, and I would love to see what happens when a senior returns to a P5 school and isn't exactly welcomed back by the team, and they are obligated to pay scholarship $$$ to him. Would one of those new NLI guys get cut? That would really be an interesting scenario.
I’m thinking the senior gets assigned to run foul poles all practice, every practice, is ordered to report for special 5 am workouts, and that coaches will be on the lookout for the slightest rule infractions as an excuse to kick him off the team.
And that behavior probably stops or coach is likely fired after the kid and his family threaten to report him to the NCAA and sue him for harassment. That would never fly, IMO. It wasn't the kid's idea to promise a 4-year guaranteed scholarship. It was the school/coach.
And do you really think a coach would take it out on another human being with corporal punishment because he couldn't do basic math and project the probability of over committing his funds? If so, that is the saddest thing I've heard all day.
I was being hyperbolic. But even so, I think your tone is a bit over the top—did you think I personally insulted you somehow?
Yes, I really do believe a coaching staff mIght try to make life unpleasant for a player they wanted to get rid of. No, I have no personal knowledge. I have heard stories of big time programs doing some pretty callous things to their athletes; but they are just that—stories. Other than your faith that all coaches would act with goodwill, do you have evidence I am wrong?
As for a lawsuit: it would be hard to prove anything if a staff were even a little careful about how they hazed an athlete. People get fired from jobs every day in circumstances that they think were discriminatory, but a tiny percentage of those situations actually result in litigation. It also would be very hard to justify the cost of a suit to recover 25% of one year’s college tuition. (And I say that as someone who has been a licensed attorney for over 20 years.)
I have no idea how you thought I felt insulted... you lost me there buddy
Chico Escuela posted:GaryMe posted:Chico Escuela posted:GaryMe posted:PABaseball posted:Curious because I do not know the answer.
What happens if all these kids who signed their NLI show up in the fall. The returning juniors and seniors, who were cut, choose to remain at the school without baseball, but still on their scholarship?
A senior getting cut from a team might not want to transfer at that point. Friends, classes, housing, etc.
The players would still count against the 11.7 and the 35 man roster.
How does their tuition get paid for and how do coaches go about this? I would assume this is very rare but you can't tell kids they can't attend school there anymore.
That is a great question, and I would love to see what happens when a senior returns to a P5 school and isn't exactly welcomed back by the team, and they are obligated to pay scholarship $$$ to him. Would one of those new NLI guys get cut? That would really be an interesting scenario.
I’m thinking the senior gets assigned to run foul poles all practice, every practice, is ordered to report for special 5 am workouts, and that coaches will be on the lookout for the slightest rule infractions as an excuse to kick him off the team.
And that behavior probably stops or coach is likely fired after the kid and his family threaten to report him to the NCAA and sue him for harassment. That would never fly, IMO. It wasn't the kid's idea to promise a 4-year guaranteed scholarship. It was the school/coach.
And do you really think a coach would take it out on another human being with corporal punishment because he couldn't do basic math and project the probability of over committing his funds? If so, that is the saddest thing I've heard all day.
I was being hyperbolic. But even so, I think your tone is a bit over the top—did you think I personally insulted you somehow?
Yes, I really do believe a coaching staff mIght try to make life unpleasant for a player they wanted to get rid of. No, I have no personal knowledge. I have heard stories of big time programs doing some pretty callous things to their athletes; but they are just that—stories. Other than your faith that all coaches would act with goodwill, do you have evidence I am wrong?
As for a lawsuit: it would be hard to prove anything if a staff were even a little careful about how they hazed an athlete. People get fired from jobs every day in circumstances that they think were discriminatory, but a tiny percentage of those situations actually result in litigation. It also would be very hard to justify the cost of a suit to recover 25% of one year’s college tuition. (And I say that as someone who has been a licensed attorney for over 20 years.)
And as a licensed attorney, you likely know that sometimes the threat of a lawsuit and the bad PR that brings is enough to get the action sought, right Matlock?
PABaseball posted:I posed the question assuming the players were receiving athletic aid (scholarship). In the case of Arkansas...they have 23 players committed (PG) and 20 signing NLIs (scholarships).
The incoming players are putting their deposits down months before the MLB draft. They might even have orientation prior to the draft depending on the school. Meaning most of them know where they will be living on campus and have possibly registered for classes (does this mean they are officially enrolled in the school?) Sure you can cut a kid, but you cannot tell them they are not welcome to enroll in the school. Even so, isn't this an NCAA violation? More $$$ committed than allotted. Even if these kids are left to duke it out in the fall...how is the bill being paid for? Hazing/forcing kids out of the program aside, the tuition needs to be paid.
Now it goes from a player problem to a coach/school problem.
exactly, and if your attrition plan includes brass knuckles, running poles as Chico appears to think is rampant...well, heaven help ya
GaryMe posted
And as a licensed attorney, you likely know that sometimes the threat of a lawsuit and the bad PR that brings is enough to get the action sought, right Matlock?
Not sure why you feel the need to be so snarky. Yeah, you come across as fairly hostile IMO. But against my better judgment, I’ll respond: No, the threat of a lawsuit with little chance to succeed isn’t an effective deterrent. Universities have in-house lawyers, so their marginal cost to handle letters threatening to sue is essentially zero. Has your experience as a litigator been different?
You declined my suggestion that you offer some evidence to support your position. In my experience, that speaks volumes. I’ve admitted I’m speculating. But I know, for example, of a soccer coach who threatened to revoke an acquaintance’s daughter’s offer of admission to a major state U when the daughter was having second thoughts about playing and being a first-year student. Could the coach have really done so? I have no idea. One of the parents is a judge, so the threat of legal consequences didn’t seem to weigh very heavily.
Chico Escuela posted:GaryMe posted
And as a licensed attorney, you likely know that sometimes the threat of a lawsuit and the bad PR that brings is enough to get the action sought, right Matlock?
Not sure why you feel the need to be so snarky. Yeah, you come across as fairly hostile IMO. But against my better judgment, I’ll respond: No, the threat of a lawsuit with little chance to succeed isn’t an effective deterrent. Universities have in-house lawyers, so their marginal cost to handle letters threatening to sue is essentially zero. Has your experience as a litigator been different?
You declined my suggestion that you offer some evidence to support your position. In my experience, that speaks volumes. I’ve admitted I’m speculating. But I know, for example, of a soccer coach who threatened to revoke an acquaintance’s daughter’s offer of admission to a major state U when the daughter was having second thoughts about playing and being a first-year student. Could the coach have really done so? I have no idea. One of the parents is a judge, so the threat of legal consequences didn’t seem to weigh very heavily.
I never threw a powdered wig into the conversation, Perry Mason, but I will respond.
If you think a University legal department who has knowledge of a practice to remove players based on anything like the scenario you suggested isn't going to practice risk management in either the removal of the party that will bring a lawsuit and bad publicity, then I probably would question your judgement.
Snarkism, just another service I provide at no additional fee.
Gary, below I sum up exactly how much energy I intend to expend on any of your posts on this site in the future:
-Chico
This thread has wandered far from its original topic and has too many personal attacks. It is now closed.