removed..

Did he learn his lesson?

The coach obviously took this decisive action for a reason.  I'm pretty sure the player will remember the event and it will likely impact his thought process on shaking off signals.  Or, at least, that was probably the coach's intention anyway.  We, here, don't know background... what understanding or dialog has taken place prior between the player and the coach?  Has the player shaken signs before without good reason?  Is the coach consistent with his communication about his expectations? etc.  So, it would be a futile exercise for us to try to determine whether the move was justified or not.  And even if we decided, between us, it was not justified, what would that matter?  Who needs to think it was justified?  Only the one put in charge of those decisions.

 

Look, if it was your kid that was the player, I would suggest he try to have an open dialog with coach, explaining why he shook coach's sign and perhaps asking the question if there are circumstances that it is OK to shake the sign, like not being able to locate a certain pitch on a certain day (player may already know).  Some coaches may want them to work thru it anyway and some may be open to that reason.  For some, it's my way or the highway.  Either way, the player will know better how to interact with the coach going forward.  If it wasn't your kid, no harm in playing arm-chair coach I suppose as long as there aren't negative assumptions shared among the other parents.

 

 

 

My son was not allowed to shake off pitches and it most likely cost him two no-no's this season.  My son knows more about pitching than his coach and would call a better game if allowed, however the coach makes the rules so you go with it or risk getting pulled.  My son didn't shake off a pitch in 4 years.

IDK. Arrived for next game.

Well either the coach is an egomaniac who wants to control everything and will not tolerate insubordination......

 

OR 

 

This wasn't the first time the kid shook off the coach.  Possibly the parent is trying to coach / call pitches from the stands.  Wouldn't be the first time this has happened.

My take... Pitcher is responsible for the pitch thrown, regardless of who's calling the pitches.  I don't mean that he has carte blanche to throw what he pleases, I mean that it's always his pitch.  As such, pitcher has a right (and need) to participate in the process of what's called to some reasonable degree.  If he shakes and gets the same pitch, then at least he voiced his concern... which might have to do with the pitch call, the location, the fact that he doesn't feel he "has" that pitch at the moment, etc.  This gives pitch caller, catcher, and pitcher something to discuss later.. One or all participants might learn something for future situations in this way.

 

If pitcher is shaking repeatedly and this has been an issue such that the coach felt pulling the kid was called for... Then fine.  But if it's some sort of "absolutely no shake" policy... Then the coach is wrong, IMO, and should go play xbox baseball instead of human baseball.

 

Bigger picture, I always like to see coaches teach their catchers to call games... all sorts of good reasons for this.

I have always felt a pitcher has to feel real comfortable with any pitch that he is going to throw in a given situation. As a former College catcher back in the day when we catchers called the game, I told all pitchers on the staff, " the one thing I never want to hear is 'I didn't want to throw that but you called it'". That's why God gave pitchers necks to shake off catchers. Now, there are certain instances were that might not hold true all the time, and only in a very narrow sense where a pitcher might be young with a veteran catcher. But even then there needs to be a conference if they cant agree. As for pulling a pitcher at 15 over this? That's just ridiculous in my book. This is an age were you are learning the game.

 

If the player knew he wasn't supposed to shake off signs, then he shouldn't have shaken off the sign. Community opinions on the coach's decision to call games, or his decision to pull the player, are meaningless. If the player knew the rule and he broke the rule, it's the coach's right to take action that he sees fit. He's the coach.

 

"Community opinions on the coach's decision to call games, or his decision to pull the player, are meaningless."

 

I took the want for "community feeling" as all encompassing.  Coaches rule is coaches rule and should be followed. As dumb as the rule is.  To have the conversation is not meaningless though.  There are coaches of all ages on this board and this conversation on pulling the player or not, the rule itself being a good one or not, letting pitchers/catchers call their own game or not is a very healthy discussion.  I think it helps coaches evaluate what they do.  Any time a coach self reflects, they become a better coach and is what draws many to this site.  

 

I do think coaches try to over coach and micro manage too much.  I do believe catchers and pitchers grow more as players and are into the game more when the coach steps aside and lets them call their game.  If there is a sequence that seemed odd, a healthy short discussion between innings on why the pitches were thrown helps the coach get a feeling for what the pitcher/catcher was thinking and adds to the growth if there was a better option.   

Originally Posted by J H:

If the player knew he wasn't supposed to shake off signs, then he shouldn't have shaken off the sign. Community opinions on the coach's decision to call games, or his decision to pull the player, are meaningless. If the player knew the rule and he broke the rule, it's the coach's right to take action that he sees fit. He's the coach.

 

JH, I don’t disagree that if there was a rule and a player broke it, he has to suffer the consequences, otherwise the rule would be meaningless. But having said that and having had a son who went through the same thing in HS playing days, I’ll say this. Its real easy to pontificate when its someone else’s son, but when it’s yours the perspective isn’t the same and the feelings about it are often very much different.

 

The bottom line is, the game would be better if everyone stopped sending in pitching signs from the bench. The game should be about pitting players from one team against players from another.

Stats - to play devils advocate then, should a coach call steal signs?  I get how a hit and run should be called, a sac bunt or a suicide squeeze since multilpe players would be affected,

 

I do think coaches should teach and catchers and pitchers to think for themselves and call the game, but I do think it is a process and players get it at different times in thier journey. My son as a senior was allowed to shake off anything, that was not true as a sophomore. it happened little at a time. As a junior, his catcher called the game for most part because he was a 3 year varsity starting catcher  This years cather was, also, a senior, but had little epxerience so pitching coach called pitches.

I understand the coach is the ultimate authority, and the buck stops there.  Also, there is likely more to the story, and not much background was provided, so the coach likely had addressed this, and was now teaching a lesson.

 

My stance as it relates to shaking off signs, is that as others have stated, the only person ultimately responsible for the outcome of every pitch thrown, is the pitcher.  I have always told my pitchers, and my son - if you can't throw the next pitch with 100% confidence, then don't throw that pitch...it is always "your pitch" to throw.  I had an ex CWS pitcher from Cal State Fullerton, tell my son once - "if you can't throw the next pitch with an "F-you" behind it, then don't throw it". 

 

In this case, either the coach has way too big of an ego, OR there have been problems in the past where the pitcher was not executing with the pitches "HE" was choosing, and the coach was trying to help him learn how to work a batter.

This was one of my son's big issues early in his HS years.  It didn't resolve until the coach was replaced.

 

In the meantime, whether or not the player agrees with the micromanaging approach, whatever the coach says goes.  Hopefully the coach at least made his policy clear before he enforced it.  If he did, then the situation is not just about pitch selection; it was more likely viewed as a challenge to the coach's authority, something the player can never be allowed to win.

 

If it was not made clear that standard shake-off procedures were out, then I think the coach was in the wrong.  But that would be something the player should approach the coach about, not something where the parent should get involved.

This was a big problem for my son this year as well.  The AC would call pitches and told him that he couldn't shake him off.  My son is very knowledgable about pitch calling as he works with a MLB catcher all winter and has had great coaching on pitch selection and calling a game.  He's also a catcher so that helps.  He did what he was told but would consistently get 0-2 on a hitter and then coach would call a curve ball and it would get hit.  

 

One game he was getting hit hard in the 1st inning, head coach comes out for a visit and asks what needs to change.  He says let me pitch my game and throw what I want.  Coach agreed, didn't give up another run all game.  AC was pissed and threw his clip board when HC told him he was done calling pitches that day. 

 

This is one of those deals where you gotta do what the coach says even if hes wrong.

I'll say it for the umpteenth time.  The best way for a player to succeed is to understand that the coach is ALWAYS right.

 

We all know the coach can't possibly be right all the time.  We know that some coaches are wrong about a lot of things.  But if it is not physically harmful, players must learn to do what the coach wants.  Even if you don't respect the coach, you have to respect his position.

 

That said it is asinine for any coach to disallow a pitcher to shake off a sign.  We used to allow players to disagree with signs we put on.  They actually had a signal that they could give telling us they disagree with the play we are putting on.  Sometimes we would change the sign, sometimes we wouldn't.  But it did create a lot of thinking players. Once in awhile, they would disagree twice.  I knew when this happened, something was not right and we called time and talked.  One time I put the bunt sign on with a runner at 2B.  The hitter disagreed, I still wanted the bunt so gave him the sign again. He disagreed again.  I knew this was a very smart player at the plate, called time and asked him why he was disagreeing.  He said coach there is one out and I don't think you want me bunting.  For some reason I forgot there was an out. I was wrong, he was right! I told him thanks and good job.

 

So when we talk about calling every pitch, you gotta let the pitcher pitch.  You gotta let the catcher help.  And even then you can still call pitches and everyone is part of the game.  If you're trying to develop intelligent players you have to treat them like intelligent players.  

 

Then even after all of that, the most intelligent thing a player can do goes back to the first sentence in this post.  I know it can get confusing at times, but things will change. 

 

JMO

 

 

During 30 years International with Goodwill Series events with National and State teams from Japan, Korea, Australia and China and during the Area Code games, our coaches NEVER called the pitches. 

Why?

Bob

I've said this several times but it fits the thread so hopefully someone new can learn something from it.  I want my pitchers and catchers to call their own games but I'm not going to just let them do it.  As they come in as freshmen we call the pitches for them but after an inning is over we discuss what happens.  We talk a lot of philosophy in bullpens about how to set up and location.  Then about halfway through the JV season we start letting them have an inning and gradually increase the rest of the season.  If they make a bad pitch we talk about if it was a bad choice or bad execution.

 

Sometimes they take longer to learn but we hope that by the time they become varsity as Juniors they are calling the entire game themselves.  But sometimes they don't and haven't learned or think they know more than they should or whatever - they just don't do a good job on their own.  So we still call their pitches for them.

 

What this does is create trust between pitcher/catcher and coaches.  Now if during a game a pitch is called from the dugout they throw it because they trust us in making a good call.  Pitching is about believing you can get it to do what you want it to do. Pretty much what Back Foot Slider said when talking about what someone told his son.  If a guy isn't 100% sold on a pitch he's probably going to hang it or not be close to the zone.  Our guys trust us so even if it wasn't a pitch they thought about or wanted they will throw it 100%.  Now if they shake it off then we're going to have a discussion on the mound - Here's my thought process and what's your thought process.  Then we go from there.

 

Don't yell at punish them for balls hit hard - it happens because it's part of the game.  Use it to teach and learn - was it a bad pitch or bad execution?  If they can answer this honestly they will learn.  Now if I have a kid who won't listen / learn and I'm calling their pitches and they start doing their own thing they are coming out after the inning or as soon as I can get someone else loose.  They we will have a nice meeting where I do a lot of loud talking and they do a lot of listening.

Im not a catcher so I cant say they can see this. But in the stand or dugout, you can see when a batter is guessing at the fastball and a change up would easily eat him up. I don't think the catcher can see this because he is concentrating on catching the ball, the pitcher cant see the batter's early swing for the fastball. From the dugout the coach can see inside outside balls well. I think it would be interesting for SS or 2nd to call pitches. Because they can see all these things and even base runner tendencies.

All catchers are trained to read the batter's eyes, his feet, his tense arms

and read the anxiety.

 

Bob

I know of one MLB organization which will fine a pitcher a considerable percentage of his meager salary if he shakes off - very low level. The pitchers at that level don't know why, nor should the player care why; those are the rules. You follow and eventually the reasons behind the rule becomes apparent. 

As a follow up to my earlier note:

 

Son's 2006 HS team, with head coach tightly controlling all pitch calling, made the playoffs for the first time in school history.

 

Coach left to go to another school (just for family reasons) after that season.  New coach let the experienced pitchers and catchers control all pitch calling.  The team started 19-0, won the state AAA title, and finished in Baseball America's top 10.  The next year, they won another state title and finished I think in BA's top 50.

 

My guess is the 2006 coach thought he was doing a good job and that the results bore him out..  Watching the games, the pitch calling always made me cringe.  I still think he held the team back.  The new head coach has made a perennial contender of the program.

Originally Posted by chefmike7777:

Stats - to play devils advocate then, should a coach call steal signs?  I get how a hit and run should be called, a sac bunt or a suicide squeeze since multilpe players would be affected,

 

Should he steal signs? If he didn’t give them, it wouldn’t make any difference, would it? I tried to be very specific when I said PITCHING SIGNS. Of course trying to pull off a coordinated play like a hit and run takes something different.

 

I do think coaches should teach and catchers and pitchers to think for themselves and call the game, but I do think it is a process and players get it at different times in thier journey. My son as a senior was allowed to shake off anything, that was not true as a sophomore. it happened little at a time. As a junior, his catcher called the game for most part because he was a 3 year varsity starting catcher  This years cather was, also, a senior, but had little epxerience so pitching coach called pitches.

 

I ask this question in all seriousness, and hope that before you answer you give it some thought, and try to ignore as many baseball myths as possible.

 

What would really happen if a catcher completely inexperienced at calling pitches was told to call the game with none coming from the bench?

To me it doesn't make any difference who is calling pitches, catcher or coach.  However IMO the pitcher should have the final say.  Maybe not all pitchers, but if you have a good pitcher, he needs to have the ability to throw what he wants.

 

The reason for this is development.  The best pitchers and the best players have good instincts and feel for the game.  They know what they have going that day, they know what they are most confident in that day.  And not many can be a good pitcher, a real good pitcher, unless you have some intelligence along with this "Feel".  Yes, they will make mistakes, but so will the coach and the catcher if they are calling all the pitches.  Truth is when pitchers have this feel and when catchers also have this feel, that is when they are on the same page and seldom will a pitcher shake him off.  

 

Now, especially in lower levels of professional baseball, pitches are sometimes called because of development.  For example the clubs goal might be to improve a certain pitch like the change up.  They want the pitcher to throw a much larger percentage of change ups so they call them from the dugout.  Sometimes the pitcher pays dearly when doing this, but the goal is to develop the change up. Also, there are some pitchers that simply aren't able to call their own pitches. Tell them what to throw and they're happy.

 

Often college coaches call the pitches because they don't have the luxury of wasting games on development. They can't live with lots of mistakes while waiting for the pitcher or catcher to figure things out.  They want to take over the thinking process and allow pitcher and catcher to concentrate on other things.

 

So there are many reasons for calling pitches from the dugout and many reasons to let the pitcher and catcher call the game. But once again the thought process has to be... The coach is always right!  Don't clutter your mind thinking the other way.  Some call that being coachable! And it is a good thing moving forward.

What would happen if a quarterback completely inexperienced at playcalling was told to call the plays?  Not quite as drastic but many valid comparisons.  The team would be in a much better position to win if offensive coordinator with a decent gameplan was calling the shots.

Originally Posted by cabbagedad:

What would happen if a quarterback completely inexperienced at playcalling was told to call the plays?  Not quite as drastic but many valid comparisons.  The team would be in a much better position to win if offensive coordinator with a decent gameplan was calling the shots.

 

The question I asked was directed to chefmike777, but since you felt compelled to comment, and you’re very welcome to do so, why not simply answer the question I asked rather than bring in football? I was trying to dispel one of the greatest baseball myths there is, or at least get him to realize that no matter who calls the pitches, who throws them, or who’s swinging at them, there will never be a time when every ball is clobbered out of the park or for extra base hits. Baseball doesn’t work that way.

 

Even if the pitcher told the batter what they were going to throw and where they were going to throw it, its unlikely every pitch would result in disaster for the pitcher. There are reasons it won’t happen. The main one is, pitchers don’t execute very many pitches perfectly, injecting problems into the situation. It’s not at all unusual for a pitcher in the ML to miss his spot by as much as 2’, or to not get the amount of spin or velocity expected, and the chances of poor or weak execution increases with the lower the level of the pitcher.

 

But even if every pitch was executed perfectly and the batter knew where and what it was going to be, the chances of the batter executing his swing perfectly aren’t a lot better than the pitcher executing the pitch perfectly. And, like the pitchers, the chances of weak execution by the hitter increases the lower the level of the hitter. The bottom line is, while it can be a advantage to the team on defense to have very experienced pitchers and people calling the pitches, it’s not like a weak pitcher or pitch caller guarantees the hitters will destroy every pitch. And if you don’t believe that, you’ve never watched many HS or below baseball games.

 

Because of the likelihood of less than great execution by someone, the importance of great pitch calling diminishes the lower the level, why is there what seems like a mania to do the pitch calling perfectly? To me it makes sense to let the players make whatever mistakes will happen when there’s less of a chance of damage being done so they can learn from those mistakes earlier on in the process.

 

As many have noted, until relatively recently, no pitch calling was done by anyone other than the catcher, and there was a winner and loser in almost every game, so what do you think would change if baseball went back to that paradigm, or at least got away from the kind of thinking that prompted the OP?

 

 

 

TRUE STORY:

Nolan Ryan pitching against the White Sox. The catcher tells Richie Allen that Nolan will only throw fast balls, no curves or change ups.

 

After 12 swings [foul balls], Richie with his 38 ounce bat hit a fly ball to the RF.

The catcher called the pitches [only fast balls] and the hitter know what was coming.

 

The game is not complicated. "It is hitter vs pitcher"

 

Bob

That's a good anecdote, Bob, and it also illustrates the problem you see with inexperienced or unobservant people calling pitches, whether from behind the dish or in the dugout.  Seeing that nobody is catching up to Ryan's fastball, the experienced catcher keeps putting down one finger and working location. The green kid behind the plate gets to 0-2 and figures, okay,  time for the deuce, which speeds up the hitter's bat and increases his chances of getting a hit.  Or the duece hits him.  Don't you just hate that with two strikes?

Originally Posted by cabbagedad:

I DID answer your question.  I brought in football to provide an analogy.  Inexperienced HS QB's don't call plays because there is an OC who maps out a game plan and in most cases, the OC calling the plays will take pressure off the QB and allow him just to execute the play called.  This gives the team a better chance to win.  The same argument can be made with a coach calling pitches. 

         

Look, I get both sides of the argument with coach vs. catcher calling pitches and agree with some points from each.  We have beat that topic to death here in the past.  You have stated your position over and over and have consistently ignored any POV that is not aligned with yours so I don't expect you to start listening now. 

No, you used an analogy rather than answer a very straightforward question. Baseball isn’t football, nor is it anything close to it when it comes to calling the pitches! But assuming you could never be in error in your assumptions, what makes it BETTER for the player not to have a little bit of pressure? Will it cause him to need to go to therapy for PTSD? What exactly is it that makes people so positive that players should deal with coaches 1 on one without mommy or daddy’s help to make them grow up, but God forbid they have a little pressure on them by having to call pitches? I’m sorry, but it sure seems as though there’s not a lot of consistency in that argument.

 

If a hitter knows what pitch and location the pitcher is trying to execute, he will certainly have a far greater rate of success, regardless of the pitcher's ability to execute.   

You are also consistent in your argument that pitchers can't execute with any degree of accuracy or consistency.  I don't see it that way.  Most HS pitchers work hard at their craft and either have decent control with at least a few pitches or have velo and movement that he can at least throw strikes with.

 

I never said it wouldn’t help hitters to know what was coming! My point was, it won’t make a .300 hitter an .800 hitter, or a player who hits 5 HRs for the season hit 50. IOW, the result is much exaggerated. I never said pitchers couldn’t execute with any degree of accuracy or consistency! Those are your words. My point again is, the degree of their success is greatly exaggerated as well. And of course they work hard! Does that mean because they work hard they always succeed?

 

Uhhhh, yeah I think maybe I've seen one or two.  Pretty sure "a advantage" is what the coach is looking for.  He doesn't expect the opposition to destroy every pitch if he lets his catcher call pitches.  Just an advantage.

 

Well I guess it all comes down to winning and losing is more important than development, as always. My preference is learning and development for the player, because it’s THEIR game.

 

The PO questioned why the kid was pulled, not why the coach was calling pitches.

 

If the coach wasn’t so adamant about calling pitches, for whatever reason, the kid would never have been pulled for shaking off a pitch! All it does is throw something else in the pot to get stirred.

 

Maybe I get so crazy about this topic because I was a catcher, trained by some pretty good catchers back in the day, and not even once was it implied that it was anyone’s responsibility but mine to call the pitches. That’s simply the way it was, and I didn’t whine, cry or pee my pants when things got dicey. I just did my job, just like every other catcher. If I called a pitch and the pitcher executed it correctly and it got blasted, I did the same thing other players are taught to do when something they did doesn’t work. You slap yourself around a little, then try again.

Originally Posted by JCG:

That's a good anecdote, Bob, and it also illustrates the problem you see with inexperienced or unobservant people calling pitches, whether from behind the dish or in the dugout.  Seeing that nobody is catching up to Ryan's fastball, the experienced catcher keeps putting down one finger and working location. The green kid behind the plate gets to 0-2 and figures, okay,  time for the deuce, which speeds up the hitter's bat and increases his chances of getting a hit.  Or the duece hits him.  Don't you just hate that with two strikes?

 

It seems as though the problem isn’t who should call pitches as much as its what’s the BEST way to teach catchers to call pitches. I have no problem with letting them learn to handle the pressure and make the call, then either get the praise or suffer the consequences. Others seem to favor having them learn by watching with no pressure on them. I’m sure there is no perfect way for every player.

The proper way is to teach the catcher how to call his own game. This starts when you start coaching him. It's all about communication. What we look for. Why we throw this pitch to this location in this situation. The goal is to get him to the point where he can call his own game. There is no one in a better position to call a game than a catcher who understands how to do it and knows his staff. No one.

As far as pitchers shaking that just depends. If you have a pitcher that has earned your trust fine. If you have a pitcher that is a work in progress there are reasons you wouldn't want him shaking. He doesn't trust his CU so he constantly shakes it. When is he going to learn to throw it in game situations if he's allowed to shake it?

It's important for the catcher to know why we called that pitch in order to learn. It's all about communication.

Where do you want it to get to? Your catcher calling his game. The pitcher and catcher working as a team with total trust in each other. The pitcher knowing he can shake when he wants a certain pitch in a certain situation and he knows the catcher is on the same page.

As a coach this is my goal. My goal is not to have robots waiting for me to tell them to play the game. But players who know how to play the game who don't need me to micro manage the game. It's a process.

Originally Posted by Coach_May:

The proper way is to teach the catcher how to call his own game. This starts when you start coaching him. It's all about communication. What we look for. Why we throw this pitch to this location in this situation. The goal is to get him to the point where he can call his own game. There is no one in a better position to call a game than a catcher who understands how to do it and knows his staff. No one.
…
It's important for the catcher to know why we called that pitch in order to learn. It's all about communication.

Where do you want it to get to? Your catcher calling his game. The pitcher and catcher working as a team with total trust in each other. The pitcher knowing he can shake when he wants a certain pitch in a certain situation and he knows the catcher is on the same page.

As a coach this is my goal. My goal is not to have robots waiting for me to tell them to play the game. But players who know how to play the game who don't need me to micro manage the game. It's a process.

 

EXCELLENT advice! Now all we need to do is find a way to have all coaches not just believe it, but do it as well! I seriously doubt there’d be many “issues” like the OP if your post was followed by all coaches, but the truth is, I doubt even a majority follow those tenets, and that means there’s a boatload of coaches out there who don’t.

 

Maybe I’ve just been so limited in my experience that my perspective is skewed, but I’ve had many others agree with me as well, that what you’re advocating is very difficult to do in most teams settings. Its pretty simple in private coaching, but there are too many things going on nd not enough skilled coaches in most team settings to allow what you’re advocating to take place.  

 

Great coaches will find a way to make it happen, but that’s one reason they’re great coaches.

IMO at the end of the day a pitcher needs to own his pitch, if a coach doesn't understand I would guess there are many more problems on the team besides pitch selection.