Reports: Grand jury probing possible perjury by Bonds

Are we getting fooled yet again????

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnis...coll=cs-home-utility


http://www.suntimes.com/output/couch/cst-spt-greg14.html

Lyle Alzado...dead at 42.

Ken Caminiti...dead at 41.

Good luck, Barry...

MLB needs to do a couple of things, now...they need to test to Olympic standards, which includes blood testing, to look for HGH.

They need to broaden the testing to look for designer steroids and masking agents.

They also need to suspend Bonds until all of this mess gets straightened out.

Is he the only one using? Highly doubtful...but he's squarely in the middle of the radar. You've got to start somewhere.

2 SEAMER

Make sure you get your facts in line before saying things

There is no absolute proof that steroids gave Alzado the brain tumor

Caminiti died in a "crack" den in uptown NYC--he was a "crack" addict

There may have been no "absolute" proof that steroids gave Alzado the brain tumor. But as I recall, it was pegged by many medical experts at the most likely cause.

There is probably never "absolute" proof as the cause of any cancer. But it can be good enough.

texan

You very nicely skirted the Caminiti situation

Do you think that the knee problems that Bonds has and the problems that Giambi had are related to steroids or just age?
I agree that they should have Olympic style drug testing, do they have that kind of drug testing in other sports - hockey etc.? It should be standard for all major league sports.

Steroids degrade joints. So does baseball. Old baseball players have bad knees, with steroids or not. There is certainly enough imperical and anecdotal evidence that would discourage someone from elective anabolic steroid use. The side effects are well known and documented.

Steroid abuse is very 90's. HGH human growth hormone therapy is now prevelant.

NY Times

Is it just me, or are others waiting for TR to provide the "proof" for his "crack addict" claims?

Not challenging...just looking for his facts to be in line...

DBAT 18 your BB card is in very poor taste.

I agree, that is not funny and in very bad taste.

quote:

There is no absolute proof that steroids gave Alzado the brain tumor

Caminiti died in a "crack" den in uptown NYC--he was a "crack" addict

Steroids are shown to cause heart damage, liver damage, endocrine system imbalance, elevated cholesterol levels, strokes, and aggressive behavior.

True, Caminiti died with cocaine and opiates in his system. His autopsy also showed severe coronary artery disease, much more than you would expect to find in a professional athlete in his early 40's. The cause of coronary artery disease? High cholesterol. He also was suffering from cardiomyopathy, which means that his heart was enlarged and weakened...another hallmark of steroid use. Caminiti was well known for his aggressive behavior. Steroids are psychologically addictive...he had a powerfully addictive personality.

Alzado's tumor was suspected more from using Human Growth Hormone than steroids. What a coincidence...Giambi was using HGH...he developed a pituitary tumor, didn't he?

For some reason, Tr, you're having a hard time connecting the dots.

I'll leave you with this quote from your hero, Barry:

quote:

''Doctors ought to quit worrying about what ballplayers are taking,'' Bonds told The Associated Press last week. ''What players take doesn't matter. It's nobody else's business. The doctors should spend their time looking for cures for cancer

brute

Do you know where Caminiti was found at the time of his death?
Do you know what that part of NYC is like?
Are you aware he dies of an overdose of 'crack"?

2 SEAMER

I believe you, sir, connect the dots the way you want to--An enlarged heart can happen to anyone--as in Maggie Dixon who passed this past week or so at 28

I am not here to find people guilty or not guilty of use of illegal drugs--- most of you want to condemn people for something there is no certainty about --just a lot of supposition and rumor.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
texan

You very nicely skirted the Caminiti situation

You are mistaken, I didn't skirt it. I never had any intention of addressing it. Didn't need to.

Maggie Dixon died from a cardiac dysrythmia, a surprisingly common cause of death for young women. She had a cardiomyopathy that was due to a bad valve.

Now, compare the severe coronary artery disease, grossly enlarged heart, elevated cholesterol, liver enlargement, aggressive behavior, and admitted steroid usage of Caminiti to Maggie Dixon...oh, never mind...

I don't "connect the dots the way I want to"...I look at the big picture, which is something you choose not to do. Yes, I have some background to discuss the issue, because I've spent the last decade working in a Cardiac Intensive Care Unit, dealing with heart disease and multiple other medical problems. I've seen entirely too many young women like Maggie Dixon drop dead, just like she did...I've worked with guys that have a tremendous physique from taking the same **** Bonds, Alzado, Caminiti, etc. took, and they have the heart of a ninety year old cardiac cripple shoehorned into the chest of a 40 year old Godzilla.

Get your head out of the sand and do some research.

TRhit;

I do believe, that you believe in (Innocent until Proven Guilty)
And that is your Main Arguement in your Post's.

I also believe in Innocent until proven guilty.


But just the way you Defend people's right to a Fair Trial make's it sound like your defending the Steroid abuser's.

And I don't believe that to be true. the EH

2 Seamer

Not for nothing she had an enlarged heart as well to complicate the valve problem

You are the one with your head in the sand pal but it is gratifying for me to know that I am sparring with one so all knowing--I will try to glean whatever lnowledge I can from you and your"wealth of knowledge" regarding the medical field --but keep in mind that I have medical people in my family so I am not so non-knowing about the field as you might think.

Bottom line regarding the entire steroid/Bonds thing is simple --it will all blow over in due time unless they decide to test every player in the bigs which I think we can agree will not happen--many smoke screens --lots of press -- and no convicted people when it is all over

EH---can you with out any doubt in your miond name the "roids" users in MLB? I cannot

I am not defending anyone--all I say is that nobdy has been proven guilty yet--even the Palmiero case is still open to suspicion

Not all but I can name a few!

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
brute

Do you know where Caminiti was found at the time of his death?
Do you know what that part of NYC is like?
Are you aware he dies of an overdose of 'crack"?

No...that's why I'm waiting for you to supply the proof.

TR...the girl had a minor cardiomyopathy that's associated directly with valvular problems...problems that she'd undoubtedly had since birth.

Caminiti had a horribly enlarged heart that was becoming increasingly ineffective, with no evidence of valvular problems or hypertension.

There's simply no comparison.

I don't mind sparring with you on this topic for a couple of reasons. One...all of this discussion may make a difference to a parent or a kid reading it. Two...maybe this will spur you to do some research. You're involved in trying to get kids to whatever next level they may be able to get to. Your comments/thoughts on the issue may make an impression, maybe good...maybe bad on a kid that's on the verge of making a decision that's potentially life altering.

As for increased levels of testing...I think you'll see it coming. The Players Union has always been the big stumbling block. MLB needs to include blood testing, they need to expand what they're looking for, and they need to continually update their methods, because the cheaters are always looking for an edge.

No matter how stringent the testing, it's a given that someone will ALWAYS try to cheat. The Olympics have a very stringent testing program....the participants know it's stringent...and people always get caught. Undoubtedly, some manage to slip through.

As for who's using what in MLB, it's a given that it's happening. The money is too great of a temptation. Find a way to cheat the system..sign the megacontract. Simple. There are players that obviously shrunk after last year...Pudge Rodriguez is smaller...before Bret Boone retired this spring, he looked like a batboy. As for visually figuring out who's taking..Barry is obvious. Other guys are harder to tell, because it's possible to spread doses out and get strength gains without giving many visual clues. That's what has really sunk Barry..it's one thing to experience muscle growth, but having your head swell like a Macy's Day ballon is altogether different. HR #'s are up this year after dropping last year, so it's entirely possible that players have found a way to beat the system. Only thourough testing will reduce the problem. It won't eliminate it...it'll reduce it.

Ther's nothing open to suspicion with Palmeiro...he wagged his finger, scolded the Congressmen...and tested positive for a powerful, injected steroid. He couldn't have mistaken it for Ben ***...he couldn't have thought it was "flaxseed oil", made a refreshing vinegrette, and sprinkled it onto a salad...he took it by having it injected deep into a muscle.

Quote from Barry Bonds, "Doctors ought to quit worrying about what ballplayers are taking," Bonds told The Associated Press last week. "What players take doesn't matter. It's nobody else's business. The doctors should spend their time looking for cures for cancer."

2 seamer

Lets stop with the research bit---I do my research and then some--- lets close the book here because there are no "givens" in life much less baseball

I regret that I will never be as intelligent as you but that is my lot in life!!!!

By the way the entire MLB investigatiuon is open to debate and is suspicious-

If you can determine all the users by "visual" perhaps you should be on the investigating committee--- And you talk about my head in the sand !!! LMAO

See you on the next go 'round

You've got it wrong, pal...you need to stop.

Research? Go back in the archives, and read your comments on the whole steroid mess for the last couple of years. It's quite obvious that you not only haven't done any meaningful research on this, but you have absolutely no intent to....which is doing a tremendous disservice to the kids you showcase for college ball.

True..the only "given" in life is that after you're born...you will one day die. And, that applies to this discussion....how?

Intelligence doesn't have a thing to do with it...it's having the willingness to learn, which you don't seem to have on this subject. Don't go trotting out that "poor, pitiful Tr defense"...it doesn't fly.

Please explain how the entire MLB investigation is suspicious and open to debate...after that, maybe you can offer your interpretation of why a Grand Jury has been convened to investigate perjury charges against good 'ole Barroid...let's connect the dots here...Barry gives bogus testimony to the Balco Grand Jury...once the testimony is made public, a book is published showing that Barroid perjured himself...Barroid threatens to sue, not because the book is false, but because he doesn't like how they got some of the evidence...a judge basically tells him he's wasting his time...Barroid continues to lie to the public through his "reality" show...boy, that's all going to be tough to explain...but please try. This ought to be good.

See ya on the next go 'round....

Quote from Barry Bonds, "Doctors ought to quit worrying about what ballplayers are taking," Bonds told The Associated Press last week. "What players take doesn't matter. It's nobody else's business. The doctors should spend their time looking for cures for cancer."

quote:

True..the only "given" in life is that after you're born...you will one day die.

Has it been proven that we will ALL die? What a bummer! I want proof!!!!

2SEAMER

What is meaningful---that which pleases your mind

Truth be known there is no valid reserach info on steroids and what it does or does not do to you--the reason-- no known users have ever come forward to be studied over a length of time--no medical people have been able to do in depth research on it--what we read and hear is all supposition--

As for you use of terms such as "pitiful" make sure you know the person before you make claims.

Tom are you freaking kidding here? Can you see China via the hole you dug for your head?

I do have to agree with TR that the MLB investigation is "suspicious." They hired an insider and I'm sure whatever he finds will be downplayed or simply buried. A few months from now they will pronounce the game "clean" and we'll have to wait til '08 when it becomes an honest to goodness presidential campaign issue. Can't wait to hear hillary's
position(s) on the issue.

Tr...I notice that you didn't bother answering my questions from above...that's ok...I didn't expect you would.

No, long, indepth studies haven't been done on humans...only short term studies. There has been an extensive amount of testing done on animals. However, since science can measure short term effects of what a particular drug can do, it's easy to predict long term effects.


If you overload on testosterone, science knows that your body quits making it, and you suffer hypogonadism. You don't need to study someone for 10 years to see that taking too much of the wrong thing can make your family jewels shrink like raisins.

If research shows taking steroids makes your cholesterol levels jump...and if high cholesterol levels cause circulatory blockages...and circulatory blockages cause strokes and heart attacks...then it's not a tremendous leap to connect the dots.

If steroids are processed by the liver...and studies show that taking steroids damages your liver enough to raise liver enzymes...it's not a tremendous leap to say that steroids are bad for your liver.

That's how research works, pal...sorry to burst your bubble. There's no long term research showing that drinking drain cleaner is bad for you, but I can pretty much guarantee that if you drag the Drano out from under the kitchen sink and commence to chug-a-lugging, you'll have a very unhappy ending.

So again, cut with the attitude. Whatever argument you're trying to make just isn't panning out.

Quote from Barry Bonds, "Doctors ought to quit worrying about what ballplayers are taking," Bonds told The Associated Press last week. "What players take doesn't matter. It's nobody else's business. The doctors should spend their time looking for cures for cancer."

Holden, I'm not so sure I'd agree with you. Selig tabbed Mitchell because he's familiar with him, but I don't think they'll be able to sweep this under the rug, particularly with a Grand Jury deciding whether or not to indict Barroid.

Selig's dragging his feet slower than he did during that AllStar game, but I think he's going to be forced to make some decisions by all of the publicity...if he doesn't, I think Congress is going to start holding hearings again. Maybe if they hold more hearings, Sammy Sosa will have improved on the English that he claimed not to be able to "habla"..

Quote from Barry Bonds, "Doctors ought to quit worrying about what ballplayers are taking," Bonds told The Associated Press last week. "What players take doesn't matter. It's nobody else's business. The doctors should spend their time looking for cures for cancer."

2seam,

2Seamer, I'd like to think you are correct about Selig and not just the grand jury, but I doubt that you are. I think it will take a literal act of Congress to address this issue once and for all.

It very well may take Congress to get involved again to fix things. They weren't very happy with that last charade with Raffy scolding them, Sammy all of a sudden forgetting how to habla English, and Big Mac peering over his reading glasses like a 90 year old. Curt Schilling has flipped more than a pancake in a Waffle House...before the hearings, he asserted in numerous interviews that a large number of players were on the juice..once he was subpoenaed, he changed his story, claimed he was a "good union man", and blamed Canseco for making a mountain out of a molehill.

There's plenty of blame to go around..the owners..the players...the players union...coaches...and fans. It's time to get it right. Hopefully, Selig will do the right thing, if he can be found...I think I just saw his picture on a milk carton..

Quote from Barry Bonds, "Doctors ought to quit worrying about what ballplayers are taking," Bonds told The Associated Press last week. "What players take doesn't matter. It's nobody else's business. The doctors should spend their time looking for cures for cancer."

quote:

That's how research works, pal...sorry to burst your bubble. There's no long term research showing that drinking drain cleaner is bad for you, but I can pretty much guarantee that if you drag the Drano out from under the kitchen sink and commence to chug-a-lugging, you'll have a very unhappy ending.

2seamer - Thank you for your thought provoking and well written posts on this topic. Hopefully some parents or kids will come away with a better understanding of how performance enhancers can affect an athlete's body over the long run. However, I'm afraid you are beating your head against a tree in trying to convince this TR fella to think with any semblance of reason.

quote:

I don't mind sparring with you on this topic for a couple of reasons. One...all of this discussion may make a difference to a parent or a kid reading it. Two...maybe this will spur you to do some research. You're involved in trying to get kids to whatever next level they may be able to get to. Your comments/thoughts on the issue may make an impression, maybe good...maybe bad on a kid that's on the verge of making a decision that's potentially life altering.

It's quite obvious that you not only haven't done any meaningful research on this, but you have absolutely no intent to....which is doing a tremendous disservice to the kids you showcase for college ball.

It is definitely troubling that someone with direct interaction with young athletes would go to such lengths to defend the overt use of performance enhancing drugs and steroids. If TR would go to the wall for Barry and other cheaters on this site I can only imagine what his dugout conversations with the youngsters are like on this subject.

quote:

Originally posted by Dad04:
Old baseball players have bad knees,
[/URL]

As an old baseball player, I will say with certainly that so many had burns on their knees that it was bad! lol

As was suggested long ago, the Grand Jury has finally subpoened the two "authors" of the book about Bonds, including any and all records/transcripts of the federal Grand Jury proceedings which they have or have had access to in writing their story.

Gees, I wonder how you missed that, E-6?

Better spend the money, fellows. Won't be able to when you get jailed. Oh, I forgot, they're authors and they can do what they want (including ruining peoples lives) under their Freedom of the Press rights.

Barry squirmed. Now I want to see Mopey and Dopey squirm a bit.

BEEN

Amen to that !!!

This is getting interesting

Congrats on number 713, Barry.

Gees....It only went 450-500 feet!

Joe Morgan made an interesting comment tonight on ESPN and it was overlooked.

He asked Miller, when they were speaking about Babe Ruth, wasn't booze an illegal substance during Prohibition. Isn't Babe Ruth known for hitting the Speakeasies and staying out all night boozing it up (an illegal substance)?

The question came up when there was a banner unfurled in left field at Philly/Giants game that stated that Babe Ruth did it with Hot Dogs and Beer, Aaron did it with class.

If we're going to hold Bonds to a high standard of behavior than in order to be fair, shouldn't we hold all ball players to that same standard?

An illegal substance in 1929 is no different than an illegal substance in 2004.

Let's stop being hypocrites about this.

beer or alcohol and hot dogs does not help your performance, hurts it more than anything.

RR,

Oh Boy!!!

Here comes a lot of activity on this same old topic!

I'll start... Barry might have hit 900 home runs if he drank more beer!