If Ruth lived in our time and had all the equipment, facilities, workout regimes, advancements in medicine, and diet that the modern day athlete has at their fingertips, he may be in the same position that he was in his hayday. He was born with the hand/eye skills that put him levels above the rest of the players.
If Barry Bonds played in Ruths day and with the ammenities that those players had would he have been the player he is today?
IMO, the old legends played the game with god given instincts and abilities and without the luxuries of todays technologies. With that said I can only think of what Roberto Clemente, Aaron, Mays, Stargell, and other greats would do in the modern era that evolves around training the body year round for baseball only.
Unfortunatly racism is part of human nature, white/black, black/white, brown/yellow, pink/blue, and any other combination you can think of all have racist issues in some form. It is the ugliest trait of the human race, but it lingers in every corner of the world. It is those who live in the past and dwell on histories inequaties who are the ones wearing the blinders. You cannot change the past, but you can learn from the past and do your best to brighten the future.
RR
" The perception of his performance would not have been tainted any less at this juncture if there was nothing to hold him suspiciously as one of those "black cheating" types. "
Who brought here ever called Bonds a "black cheater"? People like you are why we can never get past racism. You look for it everywhere. I dont care what race Bonds is. I dont care what religion he practices, or whether he is an alien.
HE IS A CHEATER....PLAIN AND SIMPLE!
Oh, by the way, I dont need him to fail a drug test to know. You don't need eye witness testimony to convict a person in court, ever hear the words circumstantial evidence ?
That is why he decided to get in bed with BALCO, they made sure he would not fail a test.
Do you remember the East German women swimmers in the 76 Olympics? Did you need a positive drug test to know they were on something?
The perception of Barry's performance is only tainted by the products he put in his body.
"All of this effort by those same forces have raised their ugly heads to perserve the notion of the superiority of the "whiteman" in baseball."
I dont recall any post here claiming the superiority of any race. The issue is STEROIDS
and perjury NOT RACE.
RamRod, you remind me of the kid that covers his ears and sticks out his tongue when he doesn't want to hear something. All we can hope for is you try to grow up and mature.
" The perception of his performance would not have been tainted any less at this juncture if there was nothing to hold him suspiciously as one of those "black cheating" types. "
Who brought here ever called Bonds a "black cheater"? People like you are why we can never get past racism. You look for it everywhere. I dont care what race Bonds is. I dont care what religion he practices, or whether he is an alien.
HE IS A CHEATER....PLAIN AND SIMPLE!
Oh, by the way, I dont need him to fail a drug test to know. You don't need eye witness testimony to convict a person in court, ever hear the words circumstantial evidence ?
That is why he decided to get in bed with BALCO, they made sure he would not fail a test.
Do you remember the East German women swimmers in the 76 Olympics? Did you need a positive drug test to know they were on something?
The perception of Barry's performance is only tainted by the products he put in his body.
"All of this effort by those same forces have raised their ugly heads to perserve the notion of the superiority of the "whiteman" in baseball."
I dont recall any post here claiming the superiority of any race. The issue is STEROIDS
and perjury NOT RACE.
RamRod, you remind me of the kid that covers his ears and sticks out his tongue when he doesn't want to hear something. All we can hope for is you try to grow up and mature.
Guys
Your responses are offered with a more serious tone to a civil conversation on the subject at hand. Some good food for thought.
I am not seeking a racial solution here as that will never happen. But it is good that we can discuss what has been a definite component of how this great game has evolved to be what it is today.
But you cannot ignore what is transpiring right in front of your eyes. There is a component of separation going on and you have to be blind to it when you go watch college baseball. What does that mean for players that are being developed in the USA? It simply means that all minority players that have struggled for playing time at the hs level will find it even more difficult at the college level without a change in the attitude toward baseball's recruiting allowances for earmarked scholarships.
This problem is more impacted each year by the cost of college tuition and the lack of available scholarships. The result is that only the wealthiest families can afford to support their son's in college baseball.
How does this translate? At the MLB level the minority college player is becoming extinct. At the MLB level these ranks are being filled by non-USA players. But the question is...anen't we in effect doing the same thing to minority players now that they did when Ruth was playing?
I'd like to see what your answer is to that? And how does that impact the continued growth of the USA version of the MLB when once again the best athletes are being excluded from the MLB rosters. How does that equate to how we will be able to compete against the Japanese, Koreans and teams from other areas of the world.
Don't think that there will not be a time when the MLB-USA will be playing a real World Series? It is coming, and what are we going to do to make sure we have the best on that field representing us?
Your responses are offered with a more serious tone to a civil conversation on the subject at hand. Some good food for thought.
I am not seeking a racial solution here as that will never happen. But it is good that we can discuss what has been a definite component of how this great game has evolved to be what it is today.
But you cannot ignore what is transpiring right in front of your eyes. There is a component of separation going on and you have to be blind to it when you go watch college baseball. What does that mean for players that are being developed in the USA? It simply means that all minority players that have struggled for playing time at the hs level will find it even more difficult at the college level without a change in the attitude toward baseball's recruiting allowances for earmarked scholarships.
This problem is more impacted each year by the cost of college tuition and the lack of available scholarships. The result is that only the wealthiest families can afford to support their son's in college baseball.
How does this translate? At the MLB level the minority college player is becoming extinct. At the MLB level these ranks are being filled by non-USA players. But the question is...anen't we in effect doing the same thing to minority players now that they did when Ruth was playing?
I'd like to see what your answer is to that? And how does that impact the continued growth of the USA version of the MLB when once again the best athletes are being excluded from the MLB rosters. How does that equate to how we will be able to compete against the Japanese, Koreans and teams from other areas of the world.
Don't think that there will not be a time when the MLB-USA will be playing a real World Series? It is coming, and what are we going to do to make sure we have the best on that field representing us?
One question would be which college level?
When my son played in a FL JuCo, his team was pretty much 1/3 each non-Hispanic black, white, and Hispanic. Now that he's at a D-1, it is, indeed, a primarily white team with only a few blacks and Hispanics.
Perhaps you've provided the answer yourself with the phrase "only the wealthiest families" --- this particular question is less about race or heritage and more about economics.
And when you say:
"And how does that impact the continued growth of the USA version of the MLB when once again the best athletes are being excluded from the MLB rosters."
What the heck do you mean?
Who are these excluded "best athletes"?
You are aware a player does not have to go to college to be drafted.
When my son played in a FL JuCo, his team was pretty much 1/3 each non-Hispanic black, white, and Hispanic. Now that he's at a D-1, it is, indeed, a primarily white team with only a few blacks and Hispanics.
Perhaps you've provided the answer yourself with the phrase "only the wealthiest families" --- this particular question is less about race or heritage and more about economics.
And when you say:
"And how does that impact the continued growth of the USA version of the MLB when once again the best athletes are being excluded from the MLB rosters."
What the heck do you mean?
Who are these excluded "best athletes"?
You are aware a player does not have to go to college to be drafted.
Ramrod ...
Start another thread ... or perhaps find one of your previous posts wherein you argue that everything is the same as it was in the past, as tho this country and society had not made any inroads in civil rights.
Bottom line, Ramrod, no matter what your theory is regarding the advancement (or perceived lack thereof) of minorities in this country, this thread is NOT about minority college baseball players, scholarships or the like. It is about Mr Bonds and his (alleged) use of steroids to enhance his performance.
Start another thread ... or perhaps find one of your previous posts wherein you argue that everything is the same as it was in the past, as tho this country and society had not made any inroads in civil rights.
Bottom line, Ramrod, no matter what your theory is regarding the advancement (or perceived lack thereof) of minorities in this country, this thread is NOT about minority college baseball players, scholarships or the like. It is about Mr Bonds and his (alleged) use of steroids to enhance his performance.
Oh my. Ramrod, you just spewed more cra* than an elephant would after eating a 55 gallon drum full of Ex-Lax. If you want to use a bunch of twelve dollar words to try and make yourself seem important or educated, at least be sure that you spell them correctly, or use them in the correct context.
My experience is that generally, the people nowadays that scream the loudest about racism are, in fact, some of the most racist people around.
There's no disputing the fact that Bonds has used, and may still be using, steroids, HGH, testosterone, and masking agents. My feeling is that if he'd come clean and admitted what he'd done, that people would be a tad more forgiving of him.
Instead, Barry took a refresher course from Ramrod, complained about racism, got smug, and dared others to prove he was guilty...knowing full well that the cover given to him by Balco, as well as MLB's pathetic testing program, would make it nearly impossible to have a positive test.
The Balco records show conclusively that he not only cheated, but the extent of his cheating made Gaylord Perry look like Mother Teresa.
Don't try to compare what Aaron went through to what Barroid has brought on himself. Aaron was having his life and his family's life threatened on a daily basis by real racists that had no qualms about killing a black man that was on the verge of passing a white man.
Bonds has lived a priveleged, lily white existence, and hasn't had to face 1/10th of what his dad, Aaron, Willie Mays, Jackie Robinson, Satchel Page, Buck Leonard, or any of the other players that came before him faced daily.
My experience is that generally, the people nowadays that scream the loudest about racism are, in fact, some of the most racist people around.
There's no disputing the fact that Bonds has used, and may still be using, steroids, HGH, testosterone, and masking agents. My feeling is that if he'd come clean and admitted what he'd done, that people would be a tad more forgiving of him.
Instead, Barry took a refresher course from Ramrod, complained about racism, got smug, and dared others to prove he was guilty...knowing full well that the cover given to him by Balco, as well as MLB's pathetic testing program, would make it nearly impossible to have a positive test.
The Balco records show conclusively that he not only cheated, but the extent of his cheating made Gaylord Perry look like Mother Teresa.
Don't try to compare what Aaron went through to what Barroid has brought on himself. Aaron was having his life and his family's life threatened on a daily basis by real racists that had no qualms about killing a black man that was on the verge of passing a white man.
Bonds has lived a priveleged, lily white existence, and hasn't had to face 1/10th of what his dad, Aaron, Willie Mays, Jackie Robinson, Satchel Page, Buck Leonard, or any of the other players that came before him faced daily.
quote:Quote from Barry Bonds, "Doctors ought to quit worrying about what ballplayers are taking," Bonds told The Associated Press last week. "What players take doesn't matter. It's nobody else's business. The doctors should spend their time looking for cures for cancer."
NH
Lots of assertions, accusations, and opinons offered by you...none of it equates to hard evidence. You proffer rumor, innuendo, slander, and political character assassination as proof positive of your assurance in the righteousness of your position.
I cannot in good conscience measure a man's reputation on such flimsy potions of enemic witchcraft. Concocting a spell of such efferfescience may smell good to you but it's potency carries no juice.
Lots of assertions, accusations, and opinons offered by you...none of it equates to hard evidence. You proffer rumor, innuendo, slander, and political character assassination as proof positive of your assurance in the righteousness of your position.
I cannot in good conscience measure a man's reputation on such flimsy potions of enemic witchcraft. Concocting a spell of such efferfescience may smell good to you but it's potency carries no juice.
NH....No one can say we've lost our sense of humor on these boards.
I remember, vividly, when I used to do exactly what you suggest in your last two sentences...Back in the 3rd and 4th grade.
Then...the nun would paddle me.
Then...I would have to go home and tell my mom and she would drag me back to the school and tell the nun to paddle me again.
Then...We would have to go and visit with the Principal, Sister Mary Meanperson; and, I would get paddled again.
My mom believed that nuns were as close to "Godliness"...as anyone on Earth could be.
I remember, vividly, when I used to do exactly what you suggest in your last two sentences...Back in the 3rd and 4th grade.
Then...the nun would paddle me.
Then...I would have to go home and tell my mom and she would drag me back to the school and tell the nun to paddle me again.
Then...We would have to go and visit with the Principal, Sister Mary Meanperson; and, I would get paddled again.
My mom believed that nuns were as close to "Godliness"...as anyone on Earth could be.
> > >post deleted by me< < <
quote:But you cannot ignore what is transpiring right in front of your eyes. There is a component of separation going on and you have to be blind to it when you go watch college baseball. What does that mean for players that are being developed in the USA? It simply means that all minority players that have struggled for playing time at the hs level will find it even more difficult at the college level without a change in the attitude toward baseball's recruiting allowances for earmarked scholarships.
This problem is more impacted each year by the cost of college tuition and the lack of available scholarships. The result is that only the wealthiest families can afford to support their son's in college baseball.
How does this translate? At the MLB level the minority college player is becoming extinct. At the MLB level these ranks are being filled by non-USA players. But the question is...anen't we in effect doing the same thing to minority players now that they did when Ruth was playing?
I guess the answer is for those particular families to do what my son and I have had to do...scramble for whatever money you can get, then get loans. Is it ideal? No. Is baseball the cash cow that D1 football or basketball is? No.
But...if you want to play...you work hard to accomplish what you want. Not everyone can have everything handed to him or her on a silver plattter, RamRod..
2Seamer
There is definitely a heightened level of histeria in your post...
One need not win the argument to extract the truth. It comes through here loud and clear which side is in support of inclusion and which side wishes to maintain status quo.
I will put you down for a vote for status quo.
There is definitely a heightened level of histeria in your post...
One need not win the argument to extract the truth. It comes through here loud and clear which side is in support of inclusion and which side wishes to maintain status quo.
I will put you down for a vote for status quo.
quote:Concocting a spell of such efferfescience may smell good to you but it's potency carries no juice.
I'm smelling something pretty potent in RamRods posts...
Ramrod,
Exactly how far from reality are you?
Your Quote
"It simply means that all minority players that have struggled for playing time at the hs level will find it even more difficult at the college level without a change in the attitude toward baseball's recruiting allowances for earmarked scholarships."
Go look at any posted roster/bios for any college or pro team. Yuo find some interesting facts there.
Player's Name
Player's Height
Player's Weight
Player's Birthday
Player's HS or College
Player's Hometown
Player's Class (for college)
I have not seen any roster or bios that lists RACE.
I went to the University Of Maine, (for many a long way from "civilization"). Go look at the diversity on the baseball roster there.
Rather than settle for vague old generalizations, look around at the real world! Playing college baseball is hard for everyone. If a player is exceptional, he will get his share of opportunities no matter who he is.
"And how does that impact the continued growth of the USA version of the MLB when once again the best athletes are being excluded from the MLB rosters."
Hmm.....millions & millions of dollars involved...lets see....I own a team, let me spend it all on the inferior players....
Virtually every team, has invested in scouting the world for talent. Korea, Japan,
Venezula, the Dominican, ...etc....exactly where are these best athletes who are being excluded? (I'm sure Steinbrenner would love to get some after last night.)
Exactly how far from reality are you?
Your Quote
"It simply means that all minority players that have struggled for playing time at the hs level will find it even more difficult at the college level without a change in the attitude toward baseball's recruiting allowances for earmarked scholarships."
Go look at any posted roster/bios for any college or pro team. Yuo find some interesting facts there.
Player's Name
Player's Height
Player's Weight
Player's Birthday
Player's HS or College
Player's Hometown
Player's Class (for college)
I have not seen any roster or bios that lists RACE.
I went to the University Of Maine, (for many a long way from "civilization"). Go look at the diversity on the baseball roster there.
Rather than settle for vague old generalizations, look around at the real world! Playing college baseball is hard for everyone. If a player is exceptional, he will get his share of opportunities no matter who he is.
"And how does that impact the continued growth of the USA version of the MLB when once again the best athletes are being excluded from the MLB rosters."
Hmm.....millions & millions of dollars involved...lets see....I own a team, let me spend it all on the inferior players....
Virtually every team, has invested in scouting the world for talent. Korea, Japan,
Venezula, the Dominican, ...etc....exactly where are these best athletes who are being excluded? (I'm sure Steinbrenner would love to get some after last night.)
quote:Originally posted by 2seamer:quote:Concocting a spell of such efferfescience may smell good to you but it's potency carries no juice.
I'm smelling something pretty potent in RamRods posts...
***********************************************
It comes with age as a repellent to idiocy.
RR,
Interesting....you spent half this thread doing just that to Ruth.
quote:I cannot in good conscience measure a man's reputation on such flimsy potions of enemic witchcraft. Concocting a spell of such efferfescience may smell good to you but it's potency carries no juice.
Interesting....you spent half this thread doing just that to Ruth.
quote:Originally posted by NHFundamentalsDad:
RR,quote:I cannot in good conscience measure a man's reputation on such flimsy potions of enemic witchcraft. Concocting a spell of such efferfescience may smell good to you but it's potency carries no juice.
Interesting....you spent half this thread doing just that to Ruth.
***********************************************
With Ruth I had something to work with.
RR,
Now I dont want you to hurt yourself on this , please...pretty please, can you enighten us with your answer to the question posed at least twice now?
Who are these excluded "best athletes" ?
You can of course continue to avoid the issue again...
Now I dont want you to hurt yourself on this , please...pretty please, can you enighten us with your answer to the question posed at least twice now?
Who are these excluded "best athletes" ?
You can of course continue to avoid the issue again...
Ramrod....me thinks you do protest too much.....and/or.....get a clue.
You said, and I quote: "This problem is more impacted each year by the cost of college tuition and the lack of avaliable scholarships. The result is that only the wealthiest families can afford to support their son's in college baseball." You are wrong...
I do not pretend to be right about all things either.....but on this I know I'm correct:
After working several years in public high schools and sending a son off to college I have learned that hard work, sir....hard work.....will get anyone's son, rich or poor to college...and playing ball. On top of that sir....if one is of minority status, and works hard....as I have seen many do....there are more....let me repeat MORE scholarships available....but you know that.....unless your show of articulation is not really a sign of intelligence......(sorry...but no credit for common sense).......many, many academic scholarships are available for all.....
Hard work.....study, study, study......give up Saturday night parties.....stay home and study......set the alarm for 4am to get up and study because you had a late baseball practice the night before.....your social life looses while your GPA moves on up......studying for the SAT's while your buddies are out playing pool.....
No racism....no prejudices.....no barriers....unless it's an inability to set your goals and work toward them.....
You said, and I quote: "This problem is more impacted each year by the cost of college tuition and the lack of avaliable scholarships. The result is that only the wealthiest families can afford to support their son's in college baseball." You are wrong...
I do not pretend to be right about all things either.....but on this I know I'm correct:
After working several years in public high schools and sending a son off to college I have learned that hard work, sir....hard work.....will get anyone's son, rich or poor to college...and playing ball. On top of that sir....if one is of minority status, and works hard....as I have seen many do....there are more....let me repeat MORE scholarships available....but you know that.....unless your show of articulation is not really a sign of intelligence......(sorry...but no credit for common sense).......many, many academic scholarships are available for all.....
Hard work.....study, study, study......give up Saturday night parties.....stay home and study......set the alarm for 4am to get up and study because you had a late baseball practice the night before.....your social life looses while your GPA moves on up......studying for the SAT's while your buddies are out playing pool.....
No racism....no prejudices.....no barriers....unless it's an inability to set your goals and work toward them.....
LadyNmom,
BINGO!
I dont think RR's "Hero" had to work many extra jobs to pay for his shot at college ball.
Hmmm...I dont imagine being a son of a very good MLB player could have opened any doors for him ....could they?
BINGO!
I dont think RR's "Hero" had to work many extra jobs to pay for his shot at college ball.
Hmmm...I dont imagine being a son of a very good MLB player could have opened any doors for him ....could they?
quote:There is definitely a heightened level of histeria in your post...
It's spelled "hysteria", Nimrod...oh, I mean Ramrod...and you should really look up the definition before you try using a word that you can't spell.
As for your "status quo", if that means that players that violate MLB rules enacted in 1991, and Federal Laws also enacted in 1991 should suffer some sort of penalty...then sign me up.
If being in the status quo involves being concerned about young players using steroids to try to get to the top..then sign me up.
If being in the status quo means that you can look objectively at overwhelming evidence against someone, and conclude guilt, then sign me up.
If being in the status quo means that one can reasonably conclude that you are as full of cr*p as you are full of yourself, then make me the chairman.
If being in the status quo means that one can correctly deduce that beer and hot dogs aren't performance enhancers, and that cattle steroids and testosterone are...then make me "El Presidente" of the status quo.
NH
Its difficult I know for some to use deductive reasoning...but follow along if you can.
When a segment of our population is excluded from participation for "whatever reason" the whole society suffers.
Using that premise...since economics seems to be the leveler...entire segments of our potential great athletes who could play baseball are been squeezed out of existence on the baseball diamond.
Now I'm one of those who believes that opportunity to play baseball should be open to all youngsters...but I'm not so myopic in my view of my accomplishment of self that I cannot recognize that kids that want to play are not being afforded the opportunity, either because there is no place for them to practice, play or develope.
The color and ethnicity are only considerations if they need help to get the chance.
But the results are no less devestating to the potential of a minority baseball player then what happens to a potential newborn in infanticide. One asks how many Einsteins have we lost, and I ask how many Jackie Robinsons are out there that never got a chance to play at all.
Now project that exclusionary model out over time and one has no difficulty in seeing that the results will constrict large segments of the poorest kids.
The sad part of this is they are the ones that play this game and love it the most...why, because for them it isw their way out of their circumstances.
We keep picking on the icons of baseball and only the worse will be left to care at all.
Its difficult I know for some to use deductive reasoning...but follow along if you can.
When a segment of our population is excluded from participation for "whatever reason" the whole society suffers.
Using that premise...since economics seems to be the leveler...entire segments of our potential great athletes who could play baseball are been squeezed out of existence on the baseball diamond.
Now I'm one of those who believes that opportunity to play baseball should be open to all youngsters...but I'm not so myopic in my view of my accomplishment of self that I cannot recognize that kids that want to play are not being afforded the opportunity, either because there is no place for them to practice, play or develope.
The color and ethnicity are only considerations if they need help to get the chance.
But the results are no less devestating to the potential of a minority baseball player then what happens to a potential newborn in infanticide. One asks how many Einsteins have we lost, and I ask how many Jackie Robinsons are out there that never got a chance to play at all.
Now project that exclusionary model out over time and one has no difficulty in seeing that the results will constrict large segments of the poorest kids.
The sad part of this is they are the ones that play this game and love it the most...why, because for them it isw their way out of their circumstances.
We keep picking on the icons of baseball and only the worse will be left to care at all.
Actually, guys, we've all fallen for it.
RR is concocting his posts using "MadLibs: The Contentious Multisyllabic Version".
They're for amusement purposes only.
RR is concocting his posts using "MadLibs: The Contentious Multisyllabic Version".
They're for amusement purposes only.
RR,
I just won $20 bucks here from a collegue... thanks... I knew you could come up with another meaningless mouthful...
I think I agree with many of the fellow members here that its time to close this down.
You offer nothing but the desire to keep old issues alive. No Solutions, just banter. I really do pity you that you see the world that way. Perhaps in time even you will understand its time to move forward, not backward.
I just won $20 bucks here from a collegue... thanks... I knew you could come up with another meaningless mouthful...
I think I agree with many of the fellow members here that its time to close this down.
You offer nothing but the desire to keep old issues alive. No Solutions, just banter. I really do pity you that you see the world that way. Perhaps in time even you will understand its time to move forward, not backward.
NHDad....BINGO!
No one has greater respect for those that can keep up .
quote:Originally posted by Moc1:
***********************************************
moc1
what a pleasure to see you couldn't resist...gotcha, you lost
Another hijacked thread has turned into RR against the world. RR is right and everyone else is wrong, again.
I am closing this thread because it is no longer nice. If another one is started by RR I will close it as well.
I am closing this thread because it is no longer nice. If another one is started by RR I will close it as well.