Roger Clemens

quote:

Roger Clemens was nearing the end of a great career in the mid 1990's. The Red Sox cut him loose. He was regenerated after leaving, apparently via chemicals. He pockets over $100 million since then.

1985 Boston Red Sox $140,000
1986 Boston Red Sox $340,000
1987 Boston Red Sox $650,000
1988 Boston Red Sox $1,350,000
1989 Boston Red Sox $2,300,000
1990 Boston Red Sox $2,600,000
1991 Boston Red Sox $2,700,000
1992 Boston Red Sox $4,705,250
1993 Boston Red Sox $4,655,250
1994 Boston Red Sox $5,155,250
1995 Boston Red Sox $5,655,250
1996 Boston Red Sox $5,500,000
1997 Toronto Blue Jays $8,400,000
1998 Toronto Blue Jays $8,550,000
1999 New York Yankees $8,250,000
2000 New York Yankees $6,350,000
2001 New York Yankees $10,300,000
2002 New York Yankees $10,300,000
2003 New York Yankees $10,100,000
2004 Houston Astros $5,000,000
2005 Houston Astros $18,000,000
2006 Houston Astros $18,000,000
2007 New York Yankees $18,000,000

I just don't think that the Blue Jays or Clemens knew that the revenues were going to explode the way they did from 2000 on. Clemens was probably overpaid by the Blue Jays for 97 and 98, but when Roger decided to start taking steroids while with the Jays, there was not really a hint that baseball revenues and the salary scale were going to go through the roof. I think it was more about him staying in the game and regaining his status as a "great" pitcher. The results were obviously fame AND fortune. I just think in 97 and 98 it was more about fame for him.

Perhaps Curt Schilling put it all in perspective when he explained why he would not talk to the Mitchell Commission---I never saw anyone take anything even though I suspected it---what can I tell you?

Any of us who played ball from the HS level on up can speculate on things going on in the locker room but can you prove it if you never saw it happen

I am totally with PG --why should I believe a guy who is trying to save his tail?--rats always turn when in a corner

Another aspect here which nobody talks about---many of those named used HGH during REHAB to help the healing process which is not unreal--- also many supposedly did this before any rules were in place with MLB

One additional thought--- the bottom line from the report was that players on every team "used"--if this is the case, why aren't players from every MLB team named instead of just players from a minimal number of teams---think about that !!!!

Why would anyone who has profited greatly from the game rat on anyone?

Why would anyone who never got above minimum salary rat on anyone?

In the end, those that left the game early on, never profited and saw what was going on may or may not come out clean with what they saw.

IMO, that's the key to who was named and who was not.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Perhaps Curt Schilling put it all in perspective when he explained why he would not talk to the Mitchell Commission---I never saw anyone take anything even though I suspected it---what can I tell you?

Any of us who played ball from the HS level on up can speculate on things going on in the locker room but can you prove it if you never saw it happen

I am totally with PG --why should I believe a guy who is trying to save his tail?--rats always turn when in a corner

Another aspect here which nobody talks about---many of those named used HGH during REHAB to help the healing process which is not unreal--- also many supposedly did this before any rules were in place with MLB

One additional thought--- the bottom line from the report was that players on every team "used"--if this is the case, why aren't players from every MLB team named instead of just players from a minimal number of teams---think about that !!!!

All we get from you is whining about rats like Tommy in GoodFellas. Do you actually have any suggestion for improving the game?

I beleive there ate two types of fans on this issue.

Those that state give me proof, yet with any info put in front of them, still want more "proof". These type of fans were instrumental in why not much was done about the whole situation when everyone knew what was going on.

Then there is the type of fan, who knows, without anything said that something was happening to many players of the game that most likely had to be a deep dark secret.

Finger pointing rests on everyone, including the fans.

JMO.

DAD04

Whining ????

I am stating my opinion and that is all

I have been thru accusations with not only my son but players who played with us and nobody can ever give facts---I face to face asked my son when it happened with him and he flat out told me, as he looked me in the eye, "Are you nuts?!!!" Same with the players----

There is no proof in this report at all---just words from felons== as I have said previously if you would read more closely is that I am sure it all happens but you don't hang a man without proof.

But then you are smarter than I, at least you want me and all the other posters to believe that and perhaps you are---so you go on thinking as you want

I will stay the course--no proof no guilt

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
DAD04

Whining ????

I am stating my opinion and that is all

I have been thru accusations with not only my son but players who played with us and nobody can ever give facts---I face to face asked my son when it happened with him and he flat out told me, as he looked me in the eye, "Are you nuts?!!!" Same with the players----

There is no proof in this report at all---just words from felons== as I have said previously if you would read more closely is that I am sure it all happens but you don't hang a man without proof.

But then you are smarter than I, at least you want me and all the other posters to believe that and perhaps you are---so you go on thinking as you want

I will stay the course--no proof no guilt

Thought so.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
I am totally with PG --why should I believe a guy who is trying to save his tail?--rats always turn when in a corner

Another aspect here which nobody talks about---many of those named used HGH during REHAB to help the healing process which is not unreal--- also many supposedly did this before any rules were in place with MLB

TR, wasn't it those "rats" who provided the HGH to those using during REHAB to help the "healing process?
It doesn't appear the players got it through the team doctor, their primary care doctor, or any doctor with a valid and lawful prescription.
Are you saying they are "rats" who aren't to be believed but are to be admired for stepping in where the team doctors failed?

quote:

Originally posted by Dad04:
PG, Baseball mis-stepped, fumbled and bumbled their way into the situation. The same people are in charge. They will fumble and bumble their way out. I applaud the effort, but agree they lost leverage by outing guys, probably slowing down the process. Pehaps they thought the group shame would hasten the process. Cleaning up and improving the sport should be the goal.

First, have you ever seen Bud Selig with an expression other than a guy about to have his annual physical?

Selig had the perfect opportunity to approach the players association, show them the names and offer to bury the list contingent on every player taking a thorough drug test in spring training 2009. That would allow the players one year to cleanse out. Instead he ticks off the players association and builds walls.

I'm shocked Kevin Brown can be fingered on "GM suspects he took steroids." There's your report's credibility down the drain.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
rats always turn when in a corner

That is pretty telling right there. Someone that tells a truth that harms someone else is now a rat.

I can say that I'm glad my son never had anything to do with you.

CPLZ


Who said it is a truth that was told?---Can you say that for sure ?


As for your son not having anything to do with me---that is your choice-- but you might have been surprised

Have a great holiday !!!

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
CPLZ


Who said it is a truth that was told?---Can you say that for sure ?


As for your son not having anything to do with me---that is your choice-- but you might have been surprised

Have a great holiday !!!

You were not condemning the person who said it.

Your comment condemned anyone who comes forward to speak out against someone or something as a "rat".

Where my son goes to school, the West Point Cadet Creed is..

A Cadet will not lie, cheat, or steal, or tolerate others who do. It trains young minds that truth, above all else is what matters, and looking the other way and claiming ignorance is not acceptable.

By your characterization, that makes them all rats. That sir, is highly offensive to me.

CPLZ,

We have a bet, how about a beer if we ever cross paths? Wait a minute... Is that betting on baseball?

I don’t understand why people would think there would already be law suits filed. It takes awhile to prepare one and this thing just came out the other day.

I’m still not clear about the players being notified ahead of time that they were actually on the list. Not saying it isn’t true, but I can’t find that anywhere. Based on the way certain players named have reacted, I’m guessing they didn’t know they were listed until the report was released to the public.

I’m all for getting the game cleaned up, IMO they should have done this differently. But if this is what it takes and it works… I’ll be elated! We all want the same thing!

CPLZ,

Surely you are not comparing these two guys to West Point Cadets?

quote:

A Cadet will not lie, cheat, or steal, or tolerate others who do.

Obviously these two guys didn't go by that creed until they had to save tail. Even if these guys did tell 100% the truth, they were deeply involved in being a big part of the problem. It could be said that they were the "Drug Dealers". Not exactly Cadet like people at all!

Here's a personal story I relate to what's happening in baseball. If anyone cares.

My job is in a family owned buisness. By "accident" I discovered the controller (fancy name for the bookeeper who writes checks and does the budgeting) was helping herself to things I did not feel were necessary. An example, while my job was to cut down costs (office cell phone bills, phone bills) she was cutting check for her private cell phone use (which she was allowed) that included her son's cell phone. Also I found overpayment to cc charges that were supposed to be for office expenses, and paid expenses not related to the office. Other things as well. This became a dilemma for me, because although I am family, she has been a trusted employees for about 6-7 years. I had the proof. The boss, my brother, claims he allowed some of this. Well, if he did, how come since this has all come out, it has stopped and while I know every little detail going in the office, these things were hidden. I have been accused of doing this because my hours were cut and I was getting even. I am now the "rat".

Should I have turned a blind eye and said, who cares, I will just go about my business? No, I did what I felt was morally the right thing to do. I am the one suffering the consequences, but luckily I do not have to depend on my job at this moment. It will all end in a week or two, with that my own "Mitchell Report" will follow.

There ya go, employees cheating, management turning a blind eye and those with the info bad guys or "rats".

Good people are used to substantiate evidence everyday, so are drug dealers, murderers, thieves, etc. to save their own hides. The difference is the lack of character between them.

Regardless, the checks written serve as proof that something not normal was going on, the ones who wrote the checks were just as guilty as those that took the checks. That sort of makes them "even", IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
CPLZ,

Surely you are not comparing these two guys to West Point Cadets?

quote:

A Cadet will not lie, cheat, or steal, or tolerate others who do.

Obviously these two guys didn't go by that creed until they had to save tail. Even if these guys did tell 100% the truth, they were deeply involved in being a big part of the problem. It could be said that they were the "Drug Dealers". Not exactly Cadet like people at all!

From your reponse, it's obvious I haven't done a good job of directing that post.

It was intended to defend all people who tell the truth, be they whistleblowers, do gooders, drug dealers, or people of high character acting justly. Regardless of their intent or background, telling the truth, regardless of circumstance, does not make them "rats".

The only people that use that term are those that think that lying is justifiable.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
We have a bet, how about a beer if we ever cross paths? Wait a minute... Is that betting on baseball?

Nope, that makes it betting on lawyers, legal in all 50 states and Puerto Rico! GAME ON!

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
CPLZ,

We have a bet, how about a beer if we ever cross paths? Wait a minute... Is that betting on baseball?

I don’t understand why people would think there would already be law suits filed. It takes awhile to prepare one and this thing just came out the other day.

I’m still not clear about the players being notified ahead of time that they were actually on the list. Not saying it isn’t true, but I can’t find that anywhere. Based on the way certain players named have reacted, I’m guessing they didn’t know they were listed until the report was released to the public.

I’m all for getting the game cleaned up, IMO they should have done this differently. But if this is what it takes and it works… I’ll be elated! We all want the same thing!

The notifications have been acknowedged and well documented in the media by those notified.

CPLZ,

I understand and even agree.

However there still remains at least a possibility, no matter how small it might be, that some of their statements are not the truth. Isn't that at least possible? Afterall, people/players have been less than truthful before under oath.

BTW, can someone post a picture of Sammy Sosa the rookie and Sammy the 60+ HR guy. Is he guilty or clean? So far he appears to be clean as a whistle.

quote:

I'm shocked Kevin Brown can be fingered on "GM suspects he took steroids." There's your report's credibility down the drain.

RJM, I'm not sure why you keep repeating this. Did you read pages 214-216 of the report. He is included because of direct testimony from Radomski and a copy of at least one shipping document (page 216) supporting that testimony. If Mitchell had subpoena power it wouldn't be hard to get copies of other shipping documents as well as Brown's bank account info.

If you see Brown sue Mitchell et al, then it might be reasonable to give him the benefit of the doubt. But, like Clemens, if he's guilty he won't sue. It would open him up for questioning and his bank account info, etc. would be examined. Brown, like Clemens, was received a request to be interviewed by Mitchell so he could be presented with the evidence and have a chance to explain. Brown, like Clemens, declined the invitation. If he had something obvious to say in order to save himself, he had a chance to do it with his attorney present and an attorney from the players' union.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Isn't that at least possible? Afterall, people/players have been less than truthful before under oath.

Absolutely possible, and some would argue probable. In that case, the word LIAR is applicable...which indeed, they might be.

RAT implies a truth, not a falsehood, told, that harms another.

Based upon the reasoning I read, some here seem to saying "love of self is more important then love of the game or your team." That money to assure an abundant financial future is the "only" criteria worthy of consideration. All else pales in comparison to the "value" of individual determinants.

It also makes me wonder whether those who advocate such conduct should have any influence or connection to baseball especially with our young people. These are those that feed the next generation of devious cynical ball players that seek advantage through unsavory criminality.

Take my word for it...the "rats" are those who are the "cheaters" and those who make excuses for them.
JMO

LL excellent post. We all know right from wrong. Cheating is wrong. Apologizing for a cheater is just as wrong, especially when you are directly influencing, and in some cases controlling and making a living from, the next generation. It is absolutely disgusting. I am DONE!

LLorton,

With all due respect, I have never read one single post on this site where someone has ever advocated the use of any performance enhancing drugs. Far as I can tell, everyone here is on the same page on that.

Ther is no reason to start something that doesn't exist.

I'm fascinated by everyone's rush to judgement based evidence presented (not all of it strong enough to hold up in court). I believe the process was a waste of time and money. It didn't focus on baseball. It focused on two people prosecuters could squeeze for information. I prefer to see the situation shake out before I form any real opinions. I don't like the idea of an investigation that focused on two areas rather than the entire scope of baseball (even if it did nail Yankees).

I did see one interesting story regarding evaluating players. The Red Sox would look at players on other teams having down seasons but played well the previous three years. They had to get away from the practice due to concerns drop off in play may be attibutible to getting off the juice.

quote:

I am totally with PG --why should I believe a guy who is trying to save his tail?--rats always turn when in a corner

Well, let's see....McNamee was busted as a sub-distributer and threatened with jail time unless he cooperated. He receives immunity only if he tells the truth. If the feds discover he lied, even once, he goes to jail. So he's naming Justice, Knoblauch, Clemens, Pettitte, and perhaps others, and providing plenty of dates, times, amounts, etc., many of which are pretty easily verifiable. What's the incentive to add in Clemens after he's given up the others? Let's say Clemens provides evidence and perhaps other witnesses that contradict McNamee, and McNamee is found to have lied, he goes to jail. It doesn't seem logical to assume McNamee is lying, especially since Clemens and McNamee have been friends for so long.

Read the report....Clemens and McNamee met in Toronto where steroid relationship apparently started. After going to NY, Clemens convinced the Yankees to hire McNamee. After being let go by the Yankees, Clemens and Pettitte hired McNamee as their personal trainer. McNamee was still Clemens' personal trainer until May 2007 when Clemens fired him once his testimony about Clemens/steroids came to Clemens' attention.

Your argument is not logical and seems bass-ackwards.

YHF

You are entitled to your opinion--and I mine

That is what discussion is all about---I have never caught a bass backwards--they usually hit the lure solidly and head on

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
YHF

That is what discussion is all about---I have never caught a bass backwards--they usually hit the lure solidly and head on

If that is the case, you might want to stick to fishing!

PG,
I agree that people are going to believe what they want to believe. I unfortunately have no choice but to believe the Mitchell report when it says 300,000+ of our youth are taking PED's to improve their athletic performance. I think the word epidemic is appropriate. For people to focus on the rights of over paid major league players and their reputations when faced with the consequences of the use of these drugs for our youth is just off base imo. Without an Olympic type testing program including year round blood testing all we've done with the Mitchell report is document the end of the steroid era and signal the beginning of the HGH era with terrible consequences for kids down the road.
If the players union doesn't want to agree to a rigorous testing program then baseball should follow Reagan's example with the air traffic controlers. If not, Selig shelve his self pity act and just admit that money trumps everything including the health of our kids.

quote:

Originally posted by igball:
I unfortunately have no choice but to believe the Mitchell report when it says 300,000+ of our youth are taking PED's to improve their athletic performance.

Just because he said that, doesn't make it true.

You do have a choice to believe it or not.

By saying, "...have no choice but to believe..."...means there is overwhelming, supported, and irrefutable evidence to support the claim, which is quite overstating the situation. It is actually more an extrapolated guess and opinion than anything close to certainty.

CPZL-
Just read some of this - it was not written my Mr. Mitchell.

http://www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/spe/2005/steroids/index.html

I agree with CPL - I dont believe the 300,000 guess.

My guess is far in excess of 300,000

I think 300,000 is a gross understatement.

I sat here and read all the posts and have come to the conclusion that this is a great site where all can post there opinions for or against. And all seem to genuinely care about what has come out. Whether they all took the PED'S or not and who all knew and looked the other way while Millions of dollars were being pocketed will never be actually uncovered. But what is apparent is that there is a problem and it needs to be dealt with and the penalty severe enough to prevent this from ever happening again. I long for the days when natural ability was what kept me glued to my seat. Remember Willie McCovey,Willie Stargell and Mike Schmitd no-one left there seats when they came to the plate. Or Bob Gibson and Tom Seaver pitching wow and how about Ricky Henderson and Lou Brock on the bases those were the days. I hope we can clean this up and maybe someday we'll be watching one of own kids and people will again have heroes to root for.

quote:

Originally posted by BeenthereIL:
There you go, 2 seamer...stalking me again.

---------

The report is a JOKE.

No subpoena power. No penalty for lying to an investigator. Major league players not cooperating because of the Union.

The Wisconsin "no hair on his....." Commish will do nothing substantive.

$20 million dollar waste of time.

"Stalking"? Not hardly...I just like pointing out hypocrisy, and you're "Exhibit A".

The report is a joke. It didn't go in depth nearly enough, there's way too many guilty players that didn't get named.

The players that were named were invited to talk to the Commission..they refused. If I wanted to have a shot at keeping my reputation intact, I would have..their silence speaks volumes.

You're right, though, Bud Selig most likely won't do anything, because he can't.

What will hopefully happen is that some of the players named start squealing on other players that escaped scrutiny.

quote:

... the Mitchell report when it says 300,000+ of our youth are taking PED's to improve their athletic performance.

Based on what research?

quote:

people will again have heroes to root for.

I don't consider athletes to be heroes. They are people with a special skill who entertain. Rick Monday once did something heroic on the field. I believe Doc Medich did too. Was being hungover and pumped up on greenies in a previous era heroic?

I think people can legitiamately criticize Selig, MLB owners, Fehr, the union, the players and many others and they would deserve it. Sen. Mitchell reputation speaks for itself and he put forth an honest effort under very difficult circumstances to put some facts on the table. By only naming those that he did when he said he had information on many many more, testifies to the fact that if anything all the information in the report, including the number of kids on PEDs is, if anything, under reported.
I find it odd that that someone trying to learn from this mess ignores legitmate research in favor of what he see on the playing fields of the north shore in illinois. It turns out that I'm also from Ill. and don't think I've witnessed a lot of PED's here too, but you need to understand that drugs historically start in CA, Fl. and other border states and make there way inland over time. There is no safe harbor in this very real storm imo.

quote:

Originally posted by iheartbb:
CPZL-
Just read some of this - it was not written my Mr. Mitchell.

http://www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/spe/2005/steroids/index.html

I read it quite awhile ago.

I liken the problem to the 3 blind men describing an elephant. In that part of Texas, the problem seems of epidemic proportions. If we were to extrapolate numbers based on incidence from there, they would be quite large.

I believe that incidence level to be quite different than where I live, substantially lower. I also am not nieve enough to believe that my circumstance is necessarily indicitive of normal incidence.

It does however give me pause to question those figures and not so readily accept them as authoritative.

Too often do people of power slide subjective musing in several layers of reasonable fact, hoping the substance of which gets overlooked because the surrounding sandwich is so persuasive. Then, if the subjective musing is echoed long enough, it becomes stipulated as a basis for further theory, when in fact, the base facts are not truly in evidence.

I personally cannot pull a number up and say I think there are x amount of teenage PED users, I simply have no basis for assumption other than my small, local, and innacurate observations.

I do however object to those that might, without the same burden of proof on their side to support their conclusion.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:


BTW, can someone post a picture of Sammy Sosa the rookie and Sammy the 60+ HR guy. Is he guilty or clean? So far he appears to be clean as a whistle.

If you want to know what Sosa looked like when came up with the Rangers just picture a batboy, only the batboy outweighed him by at least a good 25 lbs.

If I'm not mistaken, at the USMA not reporting breaking the honor code is as if you actually committed the code violation yourself. They drum you out because you failed to "rat out" the violaters.

When the aids epidemic was on its early growth curve, the conventional wisdom accepted by everyone, was that it only affected perverted homosexuals and Carribean immigrants. In fact there was a joke that said the most difficult part of having aids was telling your parents you're a Haatian. Substitute Texas in place of Haati and you have a similar arguement now. From a Texas post:

The day the Mitchell report was released, the local news in the DC metro area interviewed a high school senior baseball player from our community. It was pretty common knowledge that his brother had killed himself. What wasn't common knowledge was that the brother was taking steroids. In the interview, the baseball player attributed the death of his brother directly to the effects of steroids. Do you think that no one other than the one taking the steroids was hurt?

Do I know for a fact that the number is 300,000? No. Nor do I think it really matters.

quote:

PG,
I agree that people are going to believe what they want to believe. I unfortunately have no choice but to believe the Mitchell report when it says 300,000+ of our youth are taking PED's to improve their athletic performance. I think the word epidemic is appropriate. For people to focus on the rights of over paid major league players and their reputations when faced with the consequences of the use of these drugs for our youth is just off base imo. Without an Olympic type testing program including year round blood testing all we've done with the Mitchell report is document the end of the steroid era and signal the beginning of the HGH era with terrible consequences for kids down the road.
If the players union doesn't want to agree to a rigorous testing program then baseball should follow Reagan's example with the air traffic controlers. If not, Selig shelve his self pity act and just admit that money trumps everything including the health of our kids.

Igball,
There’s never anything wrong with focusing on a persons rights, no matter who they are. That is precisely what has made this country what it is. It doesn’t mean anyone is unconcerned about our youth. I really dislike any insinuations that I’m only interested in the rights of players who have used PEDs.

This is a very difficult problem. The Olympics are the best at dealing with it and it took them how long to discover Marian Jones was using steroids? What happened with their great testing system? I do agree that HGH is the new biggest problem.

I really wish they would have done a more thorough job, rather than concentrating on what two people had to say. There are hundreds who were breathing easier after the report was released.

Just for the record I posted this yesterday.

quote:

I’m all for getting the game cleaned up, IMO they should have done this differently. But if this is what it takes and it works… I’ll be elated! We all want the same thing!