Granted there are some players here that are listed that may be quilty by association and will have an opportunity to defend themselves however there are many many more including Clemens and Bonds that have some pretty ****ing evidence against them. It will be interesting to see the case by case approach that Selig takes.
No Tolerance Policy clean house the rules that apply to the everyday working man should apply to all Athletes.
Send the message
The problem is no better by this report. In the future players should be held accountable for there actions. If they failed a drug test and the policy is no drugs they should be gone.And Not let back in. There are many young players waiting in the minors just hoping for the chance at the big time. Its a great opportunity to play the game but even better if you can get paid.
These players should be without a doubt 100% guilty.
Imagine if they had to worry about losing it all.
These players should be without a doubt 100% guilty.
Imagine if they had to worry about losing it all.
I don't know if the 'problem' is better by this report or not.
What it has done though has created discussion about it at many levels. It is a great opportunity to be opening a dialogue with our kids about the subject.
What it has done though has created discussion about it at many levels. It is a great opportunity to be opening a dialogue with our kids about the subject.
TRHit,
This is not a hearsay situation. Apparently you misunderstand what "hearsay" is.
If someone said to the Mitchell investigators, "I didn't see it happening myself, but so-and-so told me he saw it happening," that would be hearsay. The problem with hearsay is that we can't judge the credibility of the source, and in particular, if we don't make the source of the information sit through questioning that seeks either to establish or refute his credibility, then the accusation is inherently unreliable.
But when someone says, "I was there and I saw it happen," or "I was there and I held the hypodermic needle and injected Roger Clemens in his buttocks", that is not hearsay. That is a first-hand statement from an eye witness. And that is the evidence against Clemens.
Now, you can say that Roger denies that person's statements. But it is not at all unusual for the wrongdoer to issue blanket denials. The question now is, who is more credible, the accuser, or Roger?
The fact is, each of these players was given the full and fair opportunity to come to the investigators and tell his side of the story. And almost all of them refused. That in itself is very telling.
In criminal cases, you have a right not to incriminate yourself, and the law prohibits the prosecution from drawing any inferences from your refusal to talk, as a means of protecting your right against self-incrimination. But most folks who let strong accusations go unrefuted end up convicted.
And the privilege against self-incrimination doesn't even apply outside the criminal context. In civil cases and other, non-court matters, inferences are typically drawn from a refusal to talk or otherwise cooperate. That's because we normally expect an innocent man to want to clear his name and protest his innocence. An accused who refuses to talk deprives us of his own admission of guilt, but we naturally draw the conclusion that he is guilty nonetheless.
According to the Mitchell report, a person who has established that he has first hand knowledge has accused Clemens. It is also noteworthy when someone is candid enough to admit their own complicity. Those types of witnesses are typically deemed very credible. And in the face of that very credible evidence, Clemens has refused to cooperate, refused to sit for questioning.
Any reasonable person would reach the natural conclusion: GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY!
Not hearsay. Not unfair to conclude guilt. At this point the ball is in Roger's court and if he really expects anyone to believe him, he'd better get busy. The indignant denial game didn't work for Bonds, didn't work for Palmeiro, didn't work for McGwire. It won't work for Clemens, either. If he's not careful, his adoring fans will turn on him every bit as quickly as Michael Vick's turned on him.
This is not a hearsay situation. Apparently you misunderstand what "hearsay" is.
If someone said to the Mitchell investigators, "I didn't see it happening myself, but so-and-so told me he saw it happening," that would be hearsay. The problem with hearsay is that we can't judge the credibility of the source, and in particular, if we don't make the source of the information sit through questioning that seeks either to establish or refute his credibility, then the accusation is inherently unreliable.
But when someone says, "I was there and I saw it happen," or "I was there and I held the hypodermic needle and injected Roger Clemens in his buttocks", that is not hearsay. That is a first-hand statement from an eye witness. And that is the evidence against Clemens.
Now, you can say that Roger denies that person's statements. But it is not at all unusual for the wrongdoer to issue blanket denials. The question now is, who is more credible, the accuser, or Roger?
The fact is, each of these players was given the full and fair opportunity to come to the investigators and tell his side of the story. And almost all of them refused. That in itself is very telling.
In criminal cases, you have a right not to incriminate yourself, and the law prohibits the prosecution from drawing any inferences from your refusal to talk, as a means of protecting your right against self-incrimination. But most folks who let strong accusations go unrefuted end up convicted.
And the privilege against self-incrimination doesn't even apply outside the criminal context. In civil cases and other, non-court matters, inferences are typically drawn from a refusal to talk or otherwise cooperate. That's because we normally expect an innocent man to want to clear his name and protest his innocence. An accused who refuses to talk deprives us of his own admission of guilt, but we naturally draw the conclusion that he is guilty nonetheless.
According to the Mitchell report, a person who has established that he has first hand knowledge has accused Clemens. It is also noteworthy when someone is candid enough to admit their own complicity. Those types of witnesses are typically deemed very credible. And in the face of that very credible evidence, Clemens has refused to cooperate, refused to sit for questioning.
Any reasonable person would reach the natural conclusion: GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY!
Not hearsay. Not unfair to conclude guilt. At this point the ball is in Roger's court and if he really expects anyone to believe him, he'd better get busy. The indignant denial game didn't work for Bonds, didn't work for Palmeiro, didn't work for McGwire. It won't work for Clemens, either. If he's not careful, his adoring fans will turn on him every bit as quickly as Michael Vick's turned on him.
I didn’t want to get involved in this, but… I'm pretty sure this will open up a can of worms.
The checks were made out to a confessed drug dealer who was also a club house guy/strength trainer. Players pay and tip clubbies all the time for many different things. He was also a guy that provided 3/4th of all the so called facts??? in this instance. Guess I’m not sure what prison time might cause someone to say or do. It always bothers me when an entire case is based on what suspected or convicted felons have to say or gain. Really, wouldn’t we all feel better about this if there were a different person providing the information?
I have my own feelings as to whether or not all these players took or bought PED. I would bet most of them probably did. But here is where I have a BIG problem… If they are guilty of something then charge them and take it to court! Lets face it, they are guilty in the public eye right now because of this report based on what was said by a fairly worthless human being.
If Roger Clemens or any of the others deny any of the report, who among you will listen or believe him? Yet because of this “witch hunt” mentality we are all very happy to believe the one guy who really is a criminal in this situation!
I’m very happy for baseball because something is definitely going to change for the better. Parents that have young kids can feel better about them pursuing baseball dreams. It (the report) will help clean up the game, but the “Witch Hunt” makes me sick!
First of all, let’s say they are correct about all these players. Why do the other hundreds get off scott free, while these guys bite the bullet? The investigation now must go on forever until every last player who has ever taking a PED is fully exposed to the general public.
One other thing, wouldn’t it make more sense to compile all this information and keep it confidential? That would definitely get the players union to march to a different drum. Just the threat of exposing so many players would cause large concern with the players union and to be honest, weaken their position somewhat. I ask, what do we care about the most… Cleaning the game up for future generations or nailing a bunch of baseball players to the cross?
Every time we see a name appear as an alleged PED user, should we be elated? I had a son that played on the same teams as many of these players named. He knew McNamee very well. Did he use PED? I don't think so, but really don’t know because I doubt he would ever tell me if he did. Maybe many of you have a much closer relationship with your sons and they would run up and tell you they are taking steroids. This is very serious stuff that many of us are much closer to than we might know. If my son did take steroids, I would be upset, but never would I want him to be scorned by the entire public. Every time I hear a name revealed, I feel very sad for that person. He happened to be one of the unlucky ones who got caught. Out there somewhere is a parent who thinks that player is a worthless cheater, the same parent may not realize their son could have been named just as easily.
I’m also concerned why baseball had to take the bullet. Could it be because parents feel their son is just as good as those in the Major Leagues. It is real easy to see that there are many more parents who feel their kid has a chance to be a Major League player than there are parents who think their son has a chance to play in the NBA or NFL. This leads to more public involvement/outcry. Please don’t tell me the NFL and NBA are clean as a whistle! 325lb linemen running 4.6 40s being a dime a dozen… Come on!
Anyway… Bottom line… The Steroid Era in baseball is near the end if not in fact already there. That is the one thing I am very thankful for. I feel absolutely no need to hang anyone. It’s not a sad day for baseball, it’s a great day for baseball! It’s a sad day for those who bit the bullet based on what was said by some people that need to be behind bars.
BTW, I’m not sure there is one single person on this site who condones the use of Performance Enhancing Drugs! Sadly, I do think there are some that enjoy seeing the lives of some very good people go down the drain.
The checks were made out to a confessed drug dealer who was also a club house guy/strength trainer. Players pay and tip clubbies all the time for many different things. He was also a guy that provided 3/4th of all the so called facts??? in this instance. Guess I’m not sure what prison time might cause someone to say or do. It always bothers me when an entire case is based on what suspected or convicted felons have to say or gain. Really, wouldn’t we all feel better about this if there were a different person providing the information?
I have my own feelings as to whether or not all these players took or bought PED. I would bet most of them probably did. But here is where I have a BIG problem… If they are guilty of something then charge them and take it to court! Lets face it, they are guilty in the public eye right now because of this report based on what was said by a fairly worthless human being.
If Roger Clemens or any of the others deny any of the report, who among you will listen or believe him? Yet because of this “witch hunt” mentality we are all very happy to believe the one guy who really is a criminal in this situation!
I’m very happy for baseball because something is definitely going to change for the better. Parents that have young kids can feel better about them pursuing baseball dreams. It (the report) will help clean up the game, but the “Witch Hunt” makes me sick!
First of all, let’s say they are correct about all these players. Why do the other hundreds get off scott free, while these guys bite the bullet? The investigation now must go on forever until every last player who has ever taking a PED is fully exposed to the general public.
One other thing, wouldn’t it make more sense to compile all this information and keep it confidential? That would definitely get the players union to march to a different drum. Just the threat of exposing so many players would cause large concern with the players union and to be honest, weaken their position somewhat. I ask, what do we care about the most… Cleaning the game up for future generations or nailing a bunch of baseball players to the cross?
Every time we see a name appear as an alleged PED user, should we be elated? I had a son that played on the same teams as many of these players named. He knew McNamee very well. Did he use PED? I don't think so, but really don’t know because I doubt he would ever tell me if he did. Maybe many of you have a much closer relationship with your sons and they would run up and tell you they are taking steroids. This is very serious stuff that many of us are much closer to than we might know. If my son did take steroids, I would be upset, but never would I want him to be scorned by the entire public. Every time I hear a name revealed, I feel very sad for that person. He happened to be one of the unlucky ones who got caught. Out there somewhere is a parent who thinks that player is a worthless cheater, the same parent may not realize their son could have been named just as easily.
I’m also concerned why baseball had to take the bullet. Could it be because parents feel their son is just as good as those in the Major Leagues. It is real easy to see that there are many more parents who feel their kid has a chance to be a Major League player than there are parents who think their son has a chance to play in the NBA or NFL. This leads to more public involvement/outcry. Please don’t tell me the NFL and NBA are clean as a whistle! 325lb linemen running 4.6 40s being a dime a dozen… Come on!
Anyway… Bottom line… The Steroid Era in baseball is near the end if not in fact already there. That is the one thing I am very thankful for. I feel absolutely no need to hang anyone. It’s not a sad day for baseball, it’s a great day for baseball! It’s a sad day for those who bit the bullet based on what was said by some people that need to be behind bars.
BTW, I’m not sure there is one single person on this site who condones the use of Performance Enhancing Drugs! Sadly, I do think there are some that enjoy seeing the lives of some very good people go down the drain.
PG, I don't think anybody takes delight in reading these names but I do believe there has been due diligence in the process. Personally, I would be more sympathetic to the 'lets be fair'position had the players cooperated in any way. Far from it. They and their union have stone walled this thing every step of the way and as a result have no one to blame but themselves for the current cry of "off with their heads." As we tell our kids when they react to our over reaction to their mistakes, "why didn't you think about this before you did what you did?"
Regarding kids and steroids, PG has been in a unique position to observe the growth of this culture since you observe elite athletes for a living. May I ask what you've seen in the past 6 or 7 years at the high school level in terms of the player's increased size, strength and speed and have you had concerns that some of what you've seen is steroid enhanced? Hopefully its not too personal a question but I would find your response interesting and maybe helpful.
Regarding kids and steroids, PG has been in a unique position to observe the growth of this culture since you observe elite athletes for a living. May I ask what you've seen in the past 6 or 7 years at the high school level in terms of the player's increased size, strength and speed and have you had concerns that some of what you've seen is steroid enhanced? Hopefully its not too personal a question but I would find your response interesting and maybe helpful.
PG,
Baseball is a business. Baseball, both players and management, made some mistakes and baseball is now paying for it. Management, when faced with the prospect of Congress taking the game over decided to play along. The players union had to be forced to agree with the program now in place and they did it kicking and screaming. Even so it was clearly not good enough to get Congress off baseball's back. Something more had to be done and enlisting a respected ex-senator to conduct an investigation was a good way of doing it. The players union did not cooperate with what the game needed. They seem to have a somewhat understandable feeling that they are the game, but although it may be hard for some to understand the game is more than the players. The players and the player's union are now reaping what they have sown. I believe that if the player's union had stepped up and done their part to end steroids then everything could have been kept almost entirely confidential. I believe they could have negotiated complete immunity in return for honest testimony and most likely individual confidentiality, although the overall numbers would have had to be released.
I think that most of us realize that despite the few extremely gifted, hard working, sons of HSBBwebsters who have gone on to pro and even MLB that they are the exception. I also don't think that steroid use is widespread enough in HS or to a lesser degree in college to significantly affect anyone's chance of making a team or getting a scholarship and most of us realize that. I can see where you might be misled by the unrealistic expectations most parents bring to showcases, but this is one of the few times I've felt insulted by something you've said.
I too feel sorry for those who got caught and especially sorry for anyone who was incorrectly named. However, they had a choice and they chose solidarity over integrity.
Baseball is a business. Baseball, both players and management, made some mistakes and baseball is now paying for it. Management, when faced with the prospect of Congress taking the game over decided to play along. The players union had to be forced to agree with the program now in place and they did it kicking and screaming. Even so it was clearly not good enough to get Congress off baseball's back. Something more had to be done and enlisting a respected ex-senator to conduct an investigation was a good way of doing it. The players union did not cooperate with what the game needed. They seem to have a somewhat understandable feeling that they are the game, but although it may be hard for some to understand the game is more than the players. The players and the player's union are now reaping what they have sown. I believe that if the player's union had stepped up and done their part to end steroids then everything could have been kept almost entirely confidential. I believe they could have negotiated complete immunity in return for honest testimony and most likely individual confidentiality, although the overall numbers would have had to be released.
I think that most of us realize that despite the few extremely gifted, hard working, sons of HSBBwebsters who have gone on to pro and even MLB that they are the exception. I also don't think that steroid use is widespread enough in HS or to a lesser degree in college to significantly affect anyone's chance of making a team or getting a scholarship and most of us realize that. I can see where you might be misled by the unrealistic expectations most parents bring to showcases, but this is one of the few times I've felt insulted by something you've said.
I too feel sorry for those who got caught and especially sorry for anyone who was incorrectly named. However, they had a choice and they chose solidarity over integrity.
PG-
Did you look at the copies of the checks? If players are 'tipping' clubbies at those amounts they are VERY generous.
It's also not fair for all of the players that chose not to use, perhaps didn't get the jobs they deserved because of the guys that either prolonged there careers or enhanced their performance on the field illegally.
I hope that one thing that comes out of this is the realization for everyone that if you engage in activities unbecoming or illegal, chances are very good that you will be caught or be held accountable for your actions.
I don't like to see careers ruined at all.
I have felt disappointment more that anything else over the last two days.
Did you look at the copies of the checks? If players are 'tipping' clubbies at those amounts they are VERY generous.
It's also not fair for all of the players that chose not to use, perhaps didn't get the jobs they deserved because of the guys that either prolonged there careers or enhanced their performance on the field illegally.
I hope that one thing that comes out of this is the realization for everyone that if you engage in activities unbecoming or illegal, chances are very good that you will be caught or be held accountable for your actions.
I don't like to see careers ruined at all.
I have felt disappointment more that anything else over the last two days.
PG,
Being a fisherman, I'm happy to open up both our cans of worms.
I would argue that the courts are nowhere for truth, and our opinion of the situation is not best shown to us by lawyers...two initials for you OJ
Throughout our lives things appear to us that are fairly easily defined by the evidence at hand, in spite of what administrators, lawyers, politicians, or others with agenda may contrive. At times the evidence decieves us, but overwhelmingly not.
People are scorned everyday for objectionable actions, why should athletes be exempt? At least in real life, they go on Oprah and confess. The fact that they now hide behind lies and denials should hold them up for more ridicule. They made big boy choices, they should suffer big boy consequences.
Witch hunt? Sort of, but the term witch hunt coins a result that goes looking for an person to fit into it. That's not what happened here. They did go looking for closet skeletons, and what happened was the closet was a war chest stuffed to the gills.
Being a fisherman, I'm happy to open up both our cans of worms.
I would argue that the courts are nowhere for truth, and our opinion of the situation is not best shown to us by lawyers...two initials for you OJ
Throughout our lives things appear to us that are fairly easily defined by the evidence at hand, in spite of what administrators, lawyers, politicians, or others with agenda may contrive. At times the evidence decieves us, but overwhelmingly not.
People are scorned everyday for objectionable actions, why should athletes be exempt? At least in real life, they go on Oprah and confess. The fact that they now hide behind lies and denials should hold them up for more ridicule. They made big boy choices, they should suffer big boy consequences.
Witch hunt? Sort of, but the term witch hunt coins a result that goes looking for an person to fit into it. That's not what happened here. They did go looking for closet skeletons, and what happened was the closet was a war chest stuffed to the gills.
Due diligence? Here's the evidence on Kevin Brown .... "GM suspects steroids"quote:I don't think anybody takes delight in reading these names but I do believe there has been due diligence in the process.
igball, I posted this in another thread and IMO it just seems like the investigation would have been even more complete had they done it.
The right way to have done this is to notify the player he was going to be named before the report came out to the public. It is my understanding that they sent out a memo to every single Major League player at the beginning of the investigation asking for interviews. It has been said that the players union recommended players not to respond.
Had they notified those who were to have their names actually released, those players and their agents surely would have been glad to grant an interview. This may or may not have changed anything, but it sure would have been the fair way to handle it and to gather both sides. IMO
In response to your question...
It does seem like players keep getting bigger and stronger as a whole, but I'd like to think it has to do with players taking the game more seriously and training better.
Every once in awhile we will see a player that appears like he might be doing something, but at the high school ages you can have a lot of different types of physical development.
It is not our job to report on these things, so we stay pretty much on the topic of talent. When it comes to serious make up concerns, suspected injury, or even signability problems, we stay away from posting that type info. MLB Scouts on the otherhand do their own investigative work in those areas.
I really don't think there is a serious steroid issue among the top high school players we see each year. Then again, we don't test them, so we don't really know.
We are planning to upgrade our efforts in educating young players, though, and this Mitchell Investigation could come in handy for that purpose.
The right way to have done this is to notify the player he was going to be named before the report came out to the public. It is my understanding that they sent out a memo to every single Major League player at the beginning of the investigation asking for interviews. It has been said that the players union recommended players not to respond.
Had they notified those who were to have their names actually released, those players and their agents surely would have been glad to grant an interview. This may or may not have changed anything, but it sure would have been the fair way to handle it and to gather both sides. IMO
In response to your question...
It does seem like players keep getting bigger and stronger as a whole, but I'd like to think it has to do with players taking the game more seriously and training better.
Every once in awhile we will see a player that appears like he might be doing something, but at the high school ages you can have a lot of different types of physical development.
It is not our job to report on these things, so we stay pretty much on the topic of talent. When it comes to serious make up concerns, suspected injury, or even signability problems, we stay away from posting that type info. MLB Scouts on the otherhand do their own investigative work in those areas.
I really don't think there is a serious steroid issue among the top high school players we see each year. Then again, we don't test them, so we don't really know.
We are planning to upgrade our efforts in educating young players, though, and this Mitchell Investigation could come in handy for that purpose.
Midlo good point. I would say in a court room, that witness would be as strong as a presecutor could ask for. However, in that same court, the defense would argue that the witness is lying, and that the witness lied because of XYZ motive. The defense would further argue that Clemens was tested for steroids multiple times by the MLB, under the agreed collective bargaining protocal, and was found clean.
It would be up to a jury/judge to decide which evidence is stronger.
If a guy was being tried for murder and a witness saw the man do it, however DNA evidence says the contrary, what evidence do you base your opinion on?
If your talking about banning someone from baseball for life, I think you need more cooberating evidence than the testimony of one guy(criminal). Especially when scientific evidence exist to the contrary.
That is the problem with this report, there is no due process, the report has no teeth. Sure the players had the opportunity to defend themselves, but that is not what this report was about, this report was an investigation into the use of steroids, not the other way. I'm guessing that the players attorneys understood this and stayed away.
If the accusations against Clemens are true, than more information will probably come available that will lead to stronger proof.
I'm not a big Clemens fan, in fact, I don't care for him at all, but If I were the commish, I would need to see the fire, not just the smoke.
I personally think Clemens did it, but If I was the commish, I don't think I could do much about it.
Because he passed my test.
It would be up to a jury/judge to decide which evidence is stronger.
If a guy was being tried for murder and a witness saw the man do it, however DNA evidence says the contrary, what evidence do you base your opinion on?
If your talking about banning someone from baseball for life, I think you need more cooberating evidence than the testimony of one guy(criminal). Especially when scientific evidence exist to the contrary.
That is the problem with this report, there is no due process, the report has no teeth. Sure the players had the opportunity to defend themselves, but that is not what this report was about, this report was an investigation into the use of steroids, not the other way. I'm guessing that the players attorneys understood this and stayed away.
If the accusations against Clemens are true, than more information will probably come available that will lead to stronger proof.
I'm not a big Clemens fan, in fact, I don't care for him at all, but If I were the commish, I would need to see the fire, not just the smoke.
I personally think Clemens did it, but If I was the commish, I don't think I could do much about it.
Because he passed my test.
Mitchell stated that every player named was contacted to cooperate and none of them did. Not proof of guilt, but certainly doesn't point to innocence.
Those testifying are open to perjury, slander, and libel charges if they lied. Knowing that someone like Clemens can afford the best in legal defense, what would be the 'confessed drug dealer's" motivation to lie?
Guys testing positive for steroids have already been outted. Why would MLB/Mitchell go through all this and keep names confidential --- why would those players be more sacred? Would the Union succumb to that particular Sword of Damocles....or would they think Selig wouldn't have the cajones to further sully the game on his watch and feel more empowered?
Yes, the players who took controlled substances are guilty of violating the law. "Take them to a court and charge them" ---???? I'll back that...well, as long as all the murderers, burglars, muggers, dealers etc. are already dealt with. It's a victimless crime. That they are not being charged by the police is proof of nothing.
Who has been elated by any name named?
"Witch Hunt": An investigation carried out ostensibly to uncover subversive activities but actually used to harass and undermine those with differing views. PG, this isn't a Witch Hunt. It's ferretting out cheaters.
PG, "Every time I hear a name revealed, I feel very sad for that person. He happened to be one of the unlucky ones who got caught." I sincerely hope that isn't what you meant to say. The guilty have chosen to use PEDs for their own aggrandisement and financial gain. I'll reserve my sadness for the guy who got cut in favor of one of these juicers, and the guy who didn't make the show because someone like Palmeiro had the spot, thank you very much.
Those testifying are open to perjury, slander, and libel charges if they lied. Knowing that someone like Clemens can afford the best in legal defense, what would be the 'confessed drug dealer's" motivation to lie?
Guys testing positive for steroids have already been outted. Why would MLB/Mitchell go through all this and keep names confidential --- why would those players be more sacred? Would the Union succumb to that particular Sword of Damocles....or would they think Selig wouldn't have the cajones to further sully the game on his watch and feel more empowered?
Yes, the players who took controlled substances are guilty of violating the law. "Take them to a court and charge them" ---???? I'll back that...well, as long as all the murderers, burglars, muggers, dealers etc. are already dealt with. It's a victimless crime. That they are not being charged by the police is proof of nothing.
Who has been elated by any name named?
"Witch Hunt": An investigation carried out ostensibly to uncover subversive activities but actually used to harass and undermine those with differing views. PG, this isn't a Witch Hunt. It's ferretting out cheaters.
PG, "Every time I hear a name revealed, I feel very sad for that person. He happened to be one of the unlucky ones who got caught." I sincerely hope that isn't what you meant to say. The guilty have chosen to use PEDs for their own aggrandisement and financial gain. I'll reserve my sadness for the guy who got cut in favor of one of these juicers, and the guy who didn't make the show because someone like Palmeiro had the spot, thank you very much.
PGStaff,
I must admit that I have no love lost on any of these player's. What they did was cheating. That being said I think you make a very valid point.
Since the amount of players named is probably a very small percent and with the threat of going after even more players thru more investigations. I think the commissioner could have use'd the threat of exposing these players and forced the union to cooperate. You can call it blackmail or strong arm tactics if you want, but I think it would have given baseball the first bit of leverage that it would have had over the union in a long time. I must admit that if I was given the option of seeing this list of names or seeing baseball and the union agreeing on a drug testing policy that made it very difficult to get around. I would vote for the later.
Also I must admit,that even though I've lost respect for these player's if this is indeed true. I still feel sorry for their family's, especially their children. To hear that your father is a cheater could be hard for a kid to deal with.
Well just a thought.
Banditsbb
I must admit that I have no love lost on any of these player's. What they did was cheating. That being said I think you make a very valid point.
quote:wouldn't it make more sense to compile all this information and keep it confidenttial? That would definitely get the players union to march to a different drum. Just the threat of exposing so many would cause large concern with the players union and to be honest, weaken their position somewhat.
Since the amount of players named is probably a very small percent and with the threat of going after even more players thru more investigations. I think the commissioner could have use'd the threat of exposing these players and forced the union to cooperate. You can call it blackmail or strong arm tactics if you want, but I think it would have given baseball the first bit of leverage that it would have had over the union in a long time. I must admit that if I was given the option of seeing this list of names or seeing baseball and the union agreeing on a drug testing policy that made it very difficult to get around. I would vote for the later.
Also I must admit,that even though I've lost respect for these player's if this is indeed true. I still feel sorry for their family's, especially their children. To hear that your father is a cheater could be hard for a kid to deal with.
Well just a thought.
Banditsbb
PG,
It sounds like they did exactly what you said and the players refused their chance to respond.
From corporate executives down to all levels of society people have to learn that there is a difference between being a team player and covering up a crime.
quote:In order to provide Clemens with information about these allegations and to give
him an opportunity to respond, I asked him to meet with me; he declined.
It sounds like they did exactly what you said and the players refused their chance to respond.
From corporate executives down to all levels of society people have to learn that there is a difference between being a team player and covering up a crime.
Who is hanging anybody or nailing people to the cross. I feel that we need to clean up and clear out the users and move on. And the message is that those who are doing PED and haven't been caught that this is your warning and the message should be clear
"DO PED AND YOU WILL BE BANNED FOR LIFE"
Roger Clemens and all the others that took PED which allowed them to take a postion on a roster from another player who may have been doing it the old fashion way by hard work. The hell with them, does anyone really think for one minute that they really care what we think they made millions$$$$$$$$
I don't wish to read about or hear how another young person chacing a dream dies because they took PED to get bigger to have an opportunity to compete. Every coach that has seen my son has said the same thing great athlete but needs to get bigger. That is the crime and we as a society have turned our back on it, all of us. So now we have a gift a second chance to correct our error's and we should be thankful that we may now save some lives here and a great sport.
Test everyone signed to a contract in this country and abroad on the islands, everywhere. Test them by-monthly protect them from themselves and prior to the draft If you wish to be eligable for the draft you must submit to drug testing. This will start the process. I don't care if they get caught then they must pay the ultimite price their baseball career. They chose to take the drugs and if guilty should be shown the exit door and given permission to seek other employment with a recorded failure to a drug test on their employment record as everyone else is.
This is a big deal
"DO PED AND YOU WILL BE BANNED FOR LIFE"
Roger Clemens and all the others that took PED which allowed them to take a postion on a roster from another player who may have been doing it the old fashion way by hard work. The hell with them, does anyone really think for one minute that they really care what we think they made millions$$$$$$$$
I don't wish to read about or hear how another young person chacing a dream dies because they took PED to get bigger to have an opportunity to compete. Every coach that has seen my son has said the same thing great athlete but needs to get bigger. That is the crime and we as a society have turned our back on it, all of us. So now we have a gift a second chance to correct our error's and we should be thankful that we may now save some lives here and a great sport.
Test everyone signed to a contract in this country and abroad on the islands, everywhere. Test them by-monthly protect them from themselves and prior to the draft If you wish to be eligable for the draft you must submit to drug testing. This will start the process. I don't care if they get caught then they must pay the ultimite price their baseball career. They chose to take the drugs and if guilty should be shown the exit door and given permission to seek other employment with a recorded failure to a drug test on their employment record as everyone else is.
This is a big deal
you raise some very good points. it has to be very difficult for these guys familys. and that is a sad thing for the inocent family members. that i truly feel sorry for.
but i think that when you accept the national stage in exchange for $$ you take what you get.even if you made a mistake or an error in judgement. it happens every day to regular people. while these guys are elite baseball players, they are regular people like you and i.
why doesn't roger go on tv and denounce this? he didn't have a problem doing that when he signed for a few million for half a season.he didn't have his lawyer do it. that would go a long way in the public eye. and luckily the court of public opinion is the only thing they'll face.
i would have to think not one of them thought what they may be doing to their familys down the road. other than maybe providing for them financialy. but they did this to themselves.
the bottom line is they either did or were very close to illegal drugs. at minimum they were around it,i would say knowingly present. if our kids did this and were caught would we want it swept under the rug? even if they didn't do it they would be in the local paper . drug through the process until proven guilty or innocent. is it different because they have money and fame?
in my opinion this whole thing is a farce,they didn't need to name names.they cold clean up the game dozens of other way's. this just makes every one feel a little better about their own problems.
i truly do feel sorry for these guys familys and their heart ache this has caused them.
but i think that when you accept the national stage in exchange for $$ you take what you get.even if you made a mistake or an error in judgement. it happens every day to regular people. while these guys are elite baseball players, they are regular people like you and i.
why doesn't roger go on tv and denounce this? he didn't have a problem doing that when he signed for a few million for half a season.he didn't have his lawyer do it. that would go a long way in the public eye. and luckily the court of public opinion is the only thing they'll face.
i would have to think not one of them thought what they may be doing to their familys down the road. other than maybe providing for them financialy. but they did this to themselves.
the bottom line is they either did or were very close to illegal drugs. at minimum they were around it,i would say knowingly present. if our kids did this and were caught would we want it swept under the rug? even if they didn't do it they would be in the local paper . drug through the process until proven guilty or innocent. is it different because they have money and fame?
in my opinion this whole thing is a farce,they didn't need to name names.they cold clean up the game dozens of other way's. this just makes every one feel a little better about their own problems.
i truly do feel sorry for these guys familys and their heart ache this has caused them.
I do not have any sympathy for any player that used steroids when they were illegal. I do feel bad for Mcguire, he took over the counter Andro. It was freely and legally available to any ballplayer that chose to use it. Mcguires name should not be in the same sentence as others that were illegally taking teste, HGH , injections, cream etc...
I do think it's unfair that some players are getting fingered while others are getting off -- but then, this isn't over, and they may not escape forever.
At some point, I would expect one player to think, "Why should I be the only one?" And we may get more and more proof of how rife this was, as folks start to trot out the "everyone was doing it" line.
The fact is, right now some teams are getting hit worse than others, simply because some teams had someone inside rat their guys out, while other teams didn't. But it's not unusual for the first suspects to roll over on other suspects.
PG, I was under the impression that at some point before the report became public, the accused players were at least told they were in the report. If this never happened, then I do agree with you, they should have, in fairness, been confronted with the accusations and been given an opportunity to refute them. I'll read the report and see if I can determine whether this happened or not.
At some point, I would expect one player to think, "Why should I be the only one?" And we may get more and more proof of how rife this was, as folks start to trot out the "everyone was doing it" line.
The fact is, right now some teams are getting hit worse than others, simply because some teams had someone inside rat their guys out, while other teams didn't. But it's not unusual for the first suspects to roll over on other suspects.
PG, I was under the impression that at some point before the report became public, the accused players were at least told they were in the report. If this never happened, then I do agree with you, they should have, in fairness, been confronted with the accusations and been given an opportunity to refute them. I'll read the report and see if I can determine whether this happened or not.
quote:Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
I do think it's unfair that some players are getting fingered while others are getting off -- but then, this isn't over, and they may not escape forever.
Actually, I think that was the whole point of the excercise, to declare an endpoint.
MLB will now fight vigorously with the players union for new testing standards, while the commish comes out with policy...from this point forward....
I just listened to an interview with F.P. Santangelo.
He said he knew about 60 days ago that he would be in the report.
Sat down with his 2 children to explain the entire situation about his purchase and use of HGH, including the fact that he cheated.
It was compelling to, on the one hand hear him say he is relieved that it is out, that he admits his use, that he is ashamed and knew he was cheating at the time and how his love for the game, the competition and everything about it led him to compromise everything he believed in about the integrity of the game.
I posted yesterday and continue to believe that the bulk of the blame should not be on many of these players.
The scouting report the Dodgers had on LoDuca, the Giants management of information brought to management by the head trainer, and the silence of the Union throughout is where the responsibility needs to be placed and isn't.
Most of us work for a living. It would be hard to imagine any executive of a successful business being told that illegal drugs are being sold and distributed on your premises and to your employees, and nothing would be done, quickly and decisively.
It would be hard to conceive an annual performance review being provided in which an employee's drug use, and it's impact on the work, would be openly discussed.
But that is exactly what the report tells us about the Giants and Dodger organizations.
Had MLB management and the union dealt with this issue, some very good people might have not been in positions like F.P. Santangelo and others.
There is little doubt players made very poor choices.
However there isn't a workplace in the US that could/would operate knowing the nature and extent of the drug use described in this report and the owners, the commissioner, the GM's of every organization, and the executives in the MLBPA should accept more ownership than they are.
I have a sense that naming players helps them avoid that ownership.
He said he knew about 60 days ago that he would be in the report.
Sat down with his 2 children to explain the entire situation about his purchase and use of HGH, including the fact that he cheated.
It was compelling to, on the one hand hear him say he is relieved that it is out, that he admits his use, that he is ashamed and knew he was cheating at the time and how his love for the game, the competition and everything about it led him to compromise everything he believed in about the integrity of the game.
I posted yesterday and continue to believe that the bulk of the blame should not be on many of these players.
The scouting report the Dodgers had on LoDuca, the Giants management of information brought to management by the head trainer, and the silence of the Union throughout is where the responsibility needs to be placed and isn't.
Most of us work for a living. It would be hard to imagine any executive of a successful business being told that illegal drugs are being sold and distributed on your premises and to your employees, and nothing would be done, quickly and decisively.
It would be hard to conceive an annual performance review being provided in which an employee's drug use, and it's impact on the work, would be openly discussed.
But that is exactly what the report tells us about the Giants and Dodger organizations.
Had MLB management and the union dealt with this issue, some very good people might have not been in positions like F.P. Santangelo and others.
There is little doubt players made very poor choices.
However there isn't a workplace in the US that could/would operate knowing the nature and extent of the drug use described in this report and the owners, the commissioner, the GM's of every organization, and the executives in the MLBPA should accept more ownership than they are.
I have a sense that naming players helps them avoid that ownership.
Most of the time in a Union Organized work place,
The Pay grades are pretty standerd across the board.
Level 1, 2, 3, Ect. Depending on Experiance and Senority.
Now in the MLBPA, there's no set standerd for pay except the Minimum amount.
There lie's the Problem right there.
MONEY, Greed, the Desire to be Super Human Big time
Baseball Player.
There is such a thing as Honor and Integrity.
And it should be first and foremost the one thing that define's us as a [ Human Being's of Great Character ].
If you don't have that!!
What define's you as a Man??
You Cannot Call yourself a Man if you don't have those Characteristics.
Life is full of Choices.
You and you alone are responsible for your Action's.
Live with the Consiquences of your Action's.
EH
The Pay grades are pretty standerd across the board.
Level 1, 2, 3, Ect. Depending on Experiance and Senority.
Now in the MLBPA, there's no set standerd for pay except the Minimum amount.
There lie's the Problem right there.
MONEY, Greed, the Desire to be Super Human Big time
Baseball Player.
There is such a thing as Honor and Integrity.
And it should be first and foremost the one thing that define's us as a [ Human Being's of Great Character ].
If you don't have that!!
What define's you as a Man??
You Cannot Call yourself a Man if you don't have those Characteristics.
Life is full of Choices.
You and you alone are responsible for your Action's.
Live with the Consiquences of your Action's.
EH
Are you suggesting that Dodger executives and management aren't at least as responsible when they are freely and openly talking about the value of a player based on their knowledge of his performance when he used and didn't use steroids?
There all Responsible.
From the Top Owner right down to the Club House attendent.
From the Top Owner right down to the Club House attendent.
Infielddad, good post. I thought the players were pawns in a chess game, trying to thrive in a system they neither created or really approved of, merely trying to be competitive.
Then I listened to Joe Oliver on local radio in Orlando today. He said he played clean, but knew others were not. He "was not surprised at alot of the names". He also said "they barely scratched the surface" of the problem. He was tempted as a journeyman catcher, but always knew he would feel guilty if he cheated. He knows he cost himself millions of dollars, but sleeps well at night knowing his name will never be trashed legitimately.
theEH might be on the right track. There is enough blame to go all around.
Then I listened to Joe Oliver on local radio in Orlando today. He said he played clean, but knew others were not. He "was not surprised at alot of the names". He also said "they barely scratched the surface" of the problem. He was tempted as a journeyman catcher, but always knew he would feel guilty if he cheated. He knows he cost himself millions of dollars, but sleeps well at night knowing his name will never be trashed legitimately.
theEH might be on the right track. There is enough blame to go all around.
PG, I understand your concern for the players and the need for fairness. I doubt any current player got drafted without the firm understanding that some players were juicing. They knew exactly what they were getting into. Baseball got all messed up. It is not going to be cleaned up neatly and without some folks getting their feelings hurt, losing their jobs or other things. Nobody went into it with their eyes closed or at the end of a bayonet. I spend alot of money on baseball. Frankly, I feel like asking for some back.
Perhaps just for the pleasure of the drug dealers company? or....maybe for a stock tip from the drug dealer?, or...maybe the drug dealer walked the guys doggie when he is on the road?
Maybe TR can moonlight as PR for the union.
quote:Originally posted by Bee>:
"TR, What do YOU think the checks (to a confessed drug dealer) are for?"
Perhaps just for the pleasure of the drug dealers company? or....maybe for a stock tip from the drug dealer?, or...maybe the drug dealer walked the guys doggie when he is on the road?
Maybe TR can moonlight as PR for the union.
I've always said, that it come's down to competeing with Big time Wrestling Super Hero Mentality for TV Revenue.
You have to be big a strong super hero to play sport's.
And this Baseball Homer Fixation.
As a True Baseball Fan of The Real Game.
I hate the Long ball Mentality.
I like the drive in the gap.
The running of the Bases.
Steal's.
The Little guy that beats out an infield grounder.
So the Guy has an over powering Fastball.
Bunt every at bat.
Lets see if he can Field.
He'll get tired of coming off the mound chasing balls all over the field.
The Game.
Sitting around waiting for the Longball is not my idea of Baseball.
JMHO
EH
You have to be big a strong super hero to play sport's.
And this Baseball Homer Fixation.
As a True Baseball Fan of The Real Game.
I hate the Long ball Mentality.
I like the drive in the gap.
The running of the Bases.
Steal's.
The Little guy that beats out an infield grounder.
So the Guy has an over powering Fastball.
Bunt every at bat.
Lets see if he can Field.
He'll get tired of coming off the mound chasing balls all over the field.
The Game.
Sitting around waiting for the Longball is not my idea of Baseball.
JMHO
EH
The truth is regarding all these discussions is that people are going to believe what they want to believe. They are not willing to look at the entire picture. Nearly all of the evidence gathered in 20 months of investigation came from TWO people trying to lesson their jail time!
In 20 months of investigation they couldn’t find any evidence against Rafael Palmeiro or Sammy Sosa.?
IMO… This investigation had the union by the balls and let them get away by releasing the names. If this is as bad as we all think it is, the players union would have been forced to adjust to reform in order to keep things quiet. Now they will simply make adjustments to fight the allegations.
Correct if I’m wrong, but isn’t the major goal to change the way things are and clean up the game? Or is it, how many people can we hang and how much controversy can we create? My prediction is that this will help baseball clean things up and it will also be one of the biggest problems baseball has ever faced. I will be shocked if there isn’t any law suits.
I guess at this point we could all say… Sammy Sosa is the "luckiest" man on Earth! Somehow, he has escaped both the congressional hearing and the 20 month investigation. He must be the greatest player that ever lived! After all, he’s the only clean guy to have broken Roger Maris’ record and he did it three times! I think Sammy weighed about 160 when he broke into the Big Leagues and was a speed guy without any power at that time. Maybe it was just the corked bats!
In 20 months of investigation they couldn’t find any evidence against Rafael Palmeiro or Sammy Sosa.?
IMO… This investigation had the union by the balls and let them get away by releasing the names. If this is as bad as we all think it is, the players union would have been forced to adjust to reform in order to keep things quiet. Now they will simply make adjustments to fight the allegations.
Correct if I’m wrong, but isn’t the major goal to change the way things are and clean up the game? Or is it, how many people can we hang and how much controversy can we create? My prediction is that this will help baseball clean things up and it will also be one of the biggest problems baseball has ever faced. I will be shocked if there isn’t any law suits.
I guess at this point we could all say… Sammy Sosa is the "luckiest" man on Earth! Somehow, he has escaped both the congressional hearing and the 20 month investigation. He must be the greatest player that ever lived! After all, he’s the only clean guy to have broken Roger Maris’ record and he did it three times! I think Sammy weighed about 160 when he broke into the Big Leagues and was a speed guy without any power at that time. Maybe it was just the corked bats!
theEH,
I like baseball, throwing the ball, hitting the ball, & catching the ball. all of that includes running bases, bunting, and everyting else you mentioned. And the best run producers hit the long ball and runs win games.
I guess you despise the A.L. so i hope your a Giants fan. lol and you love Bonds!
I like baseball, throwing the ball, hitting the ball, & catching the ball. all of that includes running bases, bunting, and everyting else you mentioned. And the best run producers hit the long ball and runs win games.
I guess you despise the A.L. so i hope your a Giants fan. lol and you love Bonds!
HR's are mistakes by pitchers.
I don't mind seeing a good long ball being hit.
It just shouldn't be made the top priorty.
EH
I don't mind seeing a good long ball being hit.
It just shouldn't be made the top priorty.
EH
PG, Baseball mis-stepped, fumbled and bumbled their way into the situation. The same people are in charge. They will fumble and bumble their way out. I applaud the effort, but agree they lost leverage by outing guys, probably slowing down the process. Pehaps they thought the group shame would hasten the process. Cleaning up and improving the sport should be the goal.
MLB and the players union have had years to make changes,it wasn't until they were forced to make changes that they began testing and they are still not testing for HGH.
No, the only way the powers that be will change is by public out rage and that happens by naming names.
Were all the guilty parties named? No, but not every thug who robs a store is caught either.
Think every player in pro ball should be tested now and the samples saved so if a new test is developed next year for a currently undetected drug the samples could be retested.
I think that would go a long way in helping to clean up baseball.
No, the only way the powers that be will change is by public out rage and that happens by naming names.
Were all the guilty parties named? No, but not every thug who robs a store is caught either.
Think every player in pro ball should be tested now and the samples saved so if a new test is developed next year for a currently undetected drug the samples could be retested.
I think that would go a long way in helping to clean up baseball.
Roger Clemins was a great pitcher without the steroids.
Barry Bonds was a great hitter without the steroids.
What changed them into cheaters?
******* G R E E D *******
The amount of money that is available to players now has corrupted the owners, players, etc.
What needs to be done. IMHO "delete" all records that have been broken since 1992. That will send the strongest message toall players, and the owners that the "GAME" is bigger then them.
If the integrity "truth in the moral clauses" of the game is really important then the records will reflect the truth, not the "lying results" that appear in the record books.
The wrong people got a hold of the game and turned it into everything that our children have been taught to avoid. "LYING, CHEATING, STEALING WHAT DOESN'T BELONG TO YOU"
Baseball is a great game...but it is not being managed by the right people. If it was up to me, I would fire them all and start over. Why, because they all knew what was going on and continued to "pretend" that the game they were playing was legit. They are all "liars and cheats"
JMO
Barry Bonds was a great hitter without the steroids.
What changed them into cheaters?
******* G R E E D *******
The amount of money that is available to players now has corrupted the owners, players, etc.
What needs to be done. IMHO "delete" all records that have been broken since 1992. That will send the strongest message toall players, and the owners that the "GAME" is bigger then them.
If the integrity "truth in the moral clauses" of the game is really important then the records will reflect the truth, not the "lying results" that appear in the record books.
The wrong people got a hold of the game and turned it into everything that our children have been taught to avoid. "LYING, CHEATING, STEALING WHAT DOESN'T BELONG TO YOU"
Baseball is a great game...but it is not being managed by the right people. If it was up to me, I would fire them all and start over. Why, because they all knew what was going on and continued to "pretend" that the game they were playing was legit. They are all "liars and cheats"
JMO
quote:Roger Clemins was a great pitcher without the steroids.
Barry Bonds was a great hitter without the steroids.
What changed them into cheaters?
******* G R E E D *******
They're both "me" guys. Bonds hated how much attention McGwire and Sosa got. Roger, obviously heading into the 'twilight of his career', didn't want to fade away the way he finished up in Boston. Both guys wanted fame, I think, more than money. They both got famous for their "workouts", but the stats and their bodies don't lie.
quote:Most of us work for a living. It would be hard to imagine any executive of a successful business being told that illegal drugs are being sold and distributed on your premises and to your employees, and nothing would be done, quickly and decisively.
Every workplace or "team" takes on a "culture". At NASA before the Challenger explosion there were plenty of guys that knew there was a problem but they kept quiet because they didn't want to extinguish their careers. During the Kennedy admin. there were plenty who thought the Bay of Pigs would be a disaster but waited quietyly hoping someone would oppose: when no one did they figured it was their turn to shut up and do nothing to stop it.
The culture of MLB has been to accept the "juicers" and turn a blind eye to this as "cheating"... The Mitchell report is step 2 in changing this. Step 1 was when Taylor Hooten's dad from Texas went to Wash. DC and told Congress and McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro and the other liars about how dangerous steroids are.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
I will be shocked if there isn’t any law suits.
Prepare to be shocked, because there won't be any lawsuits.
The requirements for evidence and guilt are much different in civil court than criminal court. Civil lawsuits would have the opportunity to ferret out all kinds of disturbing behaviors of the athlete to paint the "cheater" picture. In addition, the only way the player wins is by testifying, and there is no way that is going to happen with the risk of perjury hanging over their heads.
Not one lawsuit gets filed over this. That in itself will be telling.
The Mitchell report basically ended up being the "Radomsky" report as he was the link to most of the drugs.
Question: How many Radomsky's are/were there in MLB in the past 20 years... guys who were supplying scores of players???
Question: How many Radomsky's are/were there in MLB in the past 20 years... guys who were supplying scores of players???
quote:What changed them into cheaters?
******* G R E E D *******
Roger Clemens was nearing the end of a great career in the mid 1990's. The Red Sox cut him loose. He was regenerated after leaving, apparently via chemicals. He pockets over $100 million since then.
1985 Boston Red Sox $140,000
1986 Boston Red Sox $340,000
1987 Boston Red Sox $650,000
1988 Boston Red Sox $1,350,000
1989 Boston Red Sox $2,300,000
1990 Boston Red Sox $2,600,000
1991 Boston Red Sox $2,700,000
1992 Boston Red Sox $4,705,250
1993 Boston Red Sox $4,655,250
1994 Boston Red Sox $5,155,250
1995 Boston Red Sox $5,655,250
1996 Boston Red Sox $5,500,000
1997 Toronto Blue Jays $8,400,000
1998 Toronto Blue Jays $8,550,000
1999 New York Yankees $8,250,000
2000 New York Yankees $6,350,000
2001 New York Yankees $10,300,000
2002 New York Yankees $10,300,000
2003 New York Yankees $10,100,000
2004 Houston Astros $5,000,000
2005 Houston Astros $18,000,000
2006 Houston Astros $18,000,000
2007 New York Yankees $18,000,000
quote:Originally posted by njbb:
No, the only way the powers that be will change is by public out rage and that happens by naming names.
Were all the guilty parties named? No, but not every thug who robs a store is caught either.
According to someone I met last night whose family is very close to a head trainer for a major MLB organization, the use by different PED's by players was probably up to about 80% at one time. While some clubs warned players to stop other clubs turned their backs to what was occuring in their clubhouse. Head trainers often suspected many of their players to be using some type of PED. Those that took detectable steroids by urine sampling stopped. Others turned to the juice that was undetectable. I think that is what the list represents, those that really felt that they could continue to cheat after being warned or suspected. Don't think for a minute there was not outrage among the players and their trainers themselves.
Think about your own jobs, sometimes we see coworkers doing things that shouldn't be done, yet we know as accusers that if we speak up, we could be out of a job.
There are lots of things that go on that will always remain clubhouse secrets, an example, amphetimines in a player's coffee. This was a regular habit among players back in the 80's and 90's before some type of testing was put inplace.
My son's favorite player growing up, was David Justice. We stood next to him one day, I said to myself this is the largest man I have ever stood next too. I went back and took a look at the other pictures of other players we stood next to, wow, what a difference.
MIDLO
I know my definitions sir---and I am more than reasonable to say the least---to me it is still hearsay because of the sources--two men making deals to save their tails--- you going to trudst what they say ?? Not me---they are not reliable at all
And any reasonable person will reserve judgment as to guilty or not until all the facts are there and substantiated---you sir are not the reasonable mind
I know my definitions sir---and I am more than reasonable to say the least---to me it is still hearsay because of the sources--two men making deals to save their tails--- you going to trudst what they say ?? Not me---they are not reliable at all
And any reasonable person will reserve judgment as to guilty or not until all the facts are there and substantiated---you sir are not the reasonable mind