Roster size

Roster size is 35. They must be trimmed to 35 by the day before their opening day, which would be Feb 21 for most teams. They can list any amount on their roster until that day.

20 players for any school would be considered overrecruiting in most cases. There may be legitimate exceptions.

So in this example, we assume the Georgia coach will be forced to cut at least a few players to get to the 35 roster limit - possibly cutting some of the 20 freshmen who just signed NLI's. Does the transfer rule still apply to a player that is cut from the squad?

quote:

Does the transfer rule still apply to a player that is cut from the squad?

Yes, it unfortunately does.

To avoid sitting out for 1 year, the only option for a D1 player who is cut would be to play for a lower division (D2, D3, NAIA, or JUCO).

I guess I just don't understand how the transfer rule can do anything but hurt the student-athlete. Two follow-up questions:
1) I assume you cannot be given athletic scholarship money during the transfer year. Correct?
2) What is the NCAA's rationale behind the transfer rule, especially as it relates to sports with only equivalency scholarships?

You can be given an athletic scholarship at any time, playing or not. The liklihood of getting said scholarship is not high, but it would depend on the talent level of the inividual and need of the U.

The NCAA believed that a preponderance of transfers was hurting the graduaton rate.

Even worse, the 35 includes the walk-ons. Since all 20 have signed, I would assume they are all scholly players. He can only have 30 scholarship players next year. It'll be interesting to see what happens with these SEC schools that have signed so many kids. Its too bad.

According to the 2007-2008 NCAA Guide for the College-Bound Student-Athlete: "By signing an NLI, your son or daughter agrees to attend the institution for one academic year. In exchange, that institution must provide athletics financial aid for one academic year."

So UGA signed 20, who are guaranteed athletics financial aid. That leaves 10 scholarship slots for the returning 37 current freshmen, sophs, and juniors in 2008-2009. UGA will also have to cut/transfer/turn-pro 22 of those 37 in order to get to the 35 roster size.

Am I looking at this correctly?

quote:

Originally posted by Tantrough:
According to the 2007-2008 NCAA Guide for the College-Bound Student-Athlete: "By signing an NLI, your son or daughter agrees to attend the institution for one academic year. In exchange, that institution must provide athletics financial aid for one academic year."

So UGA signed 20, who are guaranteed athletics financial aid. That leaves 10 scholarship slots for the returning 37 current freshmen, sophs, and juniors in 2008-2009. UGA will also have to cut/transfer/turn-pro 22 of those 37 in order to get to the 35 roster size.

Am I looking at this correctly?

Only if it specifically says they signed a NLI. They could have signed any number of school generated documents that have no binding authority, but would "commit" the player to UGA. Some of those could include academic aid only, acceptance.

quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:

quote:

Originally posted by Tantrough:
According to the 2007-2008 NCAA Guide for the College-Bound Student-Athlete: "By signing an NLI, your son or daughter agrees to attend the institution for one academic year. In exchange, that institution must provide athletics financial aid for one academic year."

So UGA signed 20, who are guaranteed athletics financial aid. That leaves 10 scholarship slots for the returning 37 current freshmen, sophs, and juniors in 2008-2009. UGA will also have to cut/transfer/turn-pro 22 of those 37 in order to get to the 35 roster size.

Am I looking at this correctly?

Only if it specifically says they signed a NLI. They could have signed any number of school generated documents that have no binding authority, but would "commit" the player to UGA. Some of those could include academic aid only, acceptance.

The GA website states 20 NLI's

Looks like UGA only expects to see about 10 of the 20 signees:
"The odds of us keeping all these guys are very slim. If we get half of them, I think we'd be very happy. We've got a lot of draft-eligible juniors that are hoping to have big seasons and sign, and this (2007 freshman) class that we brought in (in August) is a little smaller; that allowed this class to be a little bigger." - recruiting coordinator Jason Eller, quoted in a BaseballAmerica.com article.

If UGA signed 10 kids who will be drafted in a slot that makes the decision to go Pro that cookbook, i.e top 3 rounds, then more power to them.

One program doing that would be an outlier statistically speaking

UGA's signees could be placed in a precarious position. Let's say that several signees have very solid, but not outstanding senior seasons and get offers in the 6th-10th rounds, lower than they wanted. Do they compromise and sign, or do they go to UGA and risk getting cut after the fall semester so UGA can conform to the rules regarding reduced roster sizes?

quote:

by if08: Do they compromise and sign, or do they go to UGA and risk getting cut after the fall semester so UGA can conform to the rules regarding reduced roster sizes?

hmm, they'd be counters when they hit campus ...
so that would mean that UGA must have the money to fund their scholarships when they arrive, AND would not benefit from cutting them since no money would be freed up until the following yr

Perhaps my thinking is muddled.

If UGA is banking on only 10 showing up on campus and closer to 20 actually do, would there be more than the max 30 counters allowed by the new NCAA rules? If so, what would UGA need to do to conform to the new rules?

quote:

Originally posted by Infield08:
Perhaps my thinking is muddled.

If UGA is banking on only 10 showing up on campus and closer to 20 actually do, would there be more than the max 30 counters allowed by the new NCAA rules? If so, what would UGA need to do to conform to the new rules?

Designate the rest as non-counters by pulling, not renewing the grants after the 2008 season and hold a cattle call tryout for the balance of counter spots and the 5 remaining roster spots.

The math is interesting. The new semester starts soon,i.e transfer cut-off period.

quote:

by OS: the math is interesting. The new semester starts soon,i.e transfer cut-off period.

is that ticking the countdown to the transfer deadline or a time bomb?

Either some legislation is in the works to explain the odd math, or the "transfer tracker" list will be huge when completed and announced after the Spring semester commences????

.

quote:

Designate the rest as non-counters by pulling, not renewing the grants after the 2008 season and hold a cattle call tryout for the balance of counter spots and the 5 remaining roster spots.

So one of the possible results of the rules changes is that DI baseball becomes, in many cases, a 3 year program?

quote:

...is that ticking the countdown to the transfer deadline or a time bomb?

How true.


44
.

quote:

So one of the possible results of the rules changes is that DI baseball becomes, in many cases, a 3 year program?

how does that help the student athlete's graduation rate?

the ncaa must have some rationale

Can you sign/commit to a college without signing an NLI ?
I was thinking that guys who get no BB money must sign a letter or something that commits them to attend a college and the only money they get are academic and reduced in state tuitions.

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:

quote:

So one of the possible results of the rules changes is that DI baseball becomes, in many cases, a 3 year program?

how does that help the student athlete's graduation rate?

the ncaa must have some rationale

It won't, and as a matter of fact, looking at the APR criteria, the exemption for excluding drafted kids phases out and 3 year drafted kids who sign may possible erode the progress ratings.
*********
Posted December 11, 2007 09:18 PM
Figure I would toss a few cents in on the subject. I did my NCAA website surf to look at more rules, specifically the APR. What was interesting was this:

"The Academic Progress Rate (APR) is a key measure used to identify both high and low academic performing teams in the Division I Academic Performance Program (APP). Intended as a four-year rate of measure, the first full four-year data set will include academic years 2003-04, 2004-05, 2005-06, and 2006-07."

That was part of the original draft. It ended with this:

"Elimination of the squad-size adjustment will begin with the 2007-08 APR reports for any team with an aggregate cohort of 30 or more student-athletes."

***If I read it correctly, it looks like they once gave programs a "pass" for the draft eligible underclassmen, those leaving for Pro baseball. That now appears to be phased out?

So the question is this:

If a programs APR will be reduced by academically eligible kids that opt for the draft prior to graduation, does a D1 coach need to overly concern himself not only with grades of recruits, but with "grades" of recruits, i.e too many blue-chippers?

What if a D1 head coach gets lucky and has a dozen potential underclass players that have peaked the interest of MLB. What happens to his APR with a mass exodus ? Would this change how he deals with these players and the scouts that are tracking them?

Does the coach need to have a roster foundation of "for sure seniors-to-be" with good grades to offset the departures?

Ever notice that past rosters were represented the least by seniors?

Do you think senior-laden teams are the future now ?

I suppose if a kid can rake a baseball or consistently get kids out as a pitcher, then they have no concerns.

I also disagree with the new transfer rule waiting period. If a kid wants to transfer,and does, and waits an entire season to play, he will still not graduate from his original program and affect the APR in a negative fashion.

Is that one year wait that much of a deterrent if the coach has told him he won't play there?

quote:

by OS: Would this change how he deals with these players and the scouts that are tracking them?

Do you think senior-laden teams are the future now ?

good observation ... a cetain local unversity whom I shall not name because they're playing in the BCS tonite historicly did it this way in baseball

all freshmen sit ... a few sophs spot sub ... some jrs share minimal playing time with senior starters ... all starters are seniors ... no scout days

back to the future part II

OS,
Good observations. Son attended a school where many get drafted every year, many juniors AND seniors that have graduated. Very few transfers in, very few transfers out, good team GPA, everyone is on tract to graduate and I see they have a decent APR.

I think that balance is the answer, if you have juniors leaving for the draft, then you need to have a certain amount of seniors graduate.

Staying on graduation tract is the key.

quote:

Originally posted by OLDSLUGGER8:
I also disagree with the new transfer rule waiting period. If a kid wants to transfer,and does, and waits an entire season to play, he will still not graduate from his original program and affect the APR in a negative fashion.

I saw a poll of coaches that overwhelmingly supported the new transfer rule. This would be a prime example of coaches preferring rules that benefit them over students.

What is the impact of Red shirts on the "counter" toll?

We know a number of kids that signed with big time programs are were told at after fall workouts that they would be red shirts this season. Next year, will this impact how they handle the freshman?

If you sign an NLI, it means you will receive an athletic based grant. If you receive an athletic based grant, you are a counter when you set foot in class.

If you are a counter, regardless of your roster status, you count toward the team equivalency of 11.7 for fully-funded programs, or whatever they are funded toward the team total for the entire championship season. You are also one of the 30, and soon to be 27 maximum allowable counters.

Agreed. But I am still having trouble finding anything that confirms that you lose a roster spot if you cut a counter. Section 15.5.4 of the D1 manual confirms the 11.7 equivalencies and 30/27 counters. However, it makes no reference to roster size.

The only reference to roster size that I can find is 17.4.8.3 dealing with "Squad Size Limitations." It confirms a maximum roster of 35. However, it makes no reference to counters.

These references are in the 07-08 D1 manual, which came out after the initial changes were made in April. I guess the final language may have changed when the amendments (1/3 cut to 1/4) were made later in the year. But the last time I checked the 08-09 manual was not out yet.

If there is something in the manual that says cutting a counter costs you a roster spot I cannot find it. Help?

quote:

Originally posted by OLDSLUGGER8:
If you sign an NLI, it means you will receive an athletic based grant. If you receive an athletic based grant, you are a counter when you set foot in class.

If you are a counter, regardless of your roster status, you count toward the team equivalency of 11.7 for fully-funded programs, or whatever they are funded toward the team total for the entire championship season. You are also one of the 30, and soon to be 27 maximum allowable counters.

Slugger is correct.
The BB rep at the NCAA explained it to me.
Once you have contributed a BB scholarship to a player he is immediately considered on the Champ Roster as soon as he steps on campus. If you cut him he still occupies a roster spot even though he is cut. The fall roster is submitted to the NCAA. He is automatically deemed to be on the roster for the Champ round in the spring.

Cut him and you can't replace him. BB money is committed for the year.

I have no doubt that someone at the NCAA told you this. And it may well be correct. But I cannot find anything in the manual that confirms it.

The manual never mentions rosters. It mentions "squad lists." As I read it, these are kept on file with the AD, not filed with the NCAA.

One section says that squad lists are compiled on the first day of competition. I would assume that means spring competition, but who knows. 14.10.2; 15.5.10.2

However, another section says that a kid that is "trying out" does not have to be placed on the list for the first 14 days. Note that it does not say that cuts have to take place within 14 days.

It is impossible to tell if they are talking about trying out in the spring or the fall. But, if fall tryouts count, maybe they mean the start of fall practice. If kids that tryout for more than 14 days have to be on the list, it would stand to reason that kids signing NLI's should already be on there.

The sections dealing with squad lists contain no limitations regarding maximum number of players.
That comes in a totally separate chapter. 17.4.8.3 says "An institution shall declare a squad of a maximum of 35 student-athletes by the day prior to its first scheduled contest in the Championship Segment (spring) of the playing and practice season."

It looks to me like they're really talking about 2 lists, something of a preliminary list that they start in the fall and which can contain any number of kids, and a final list of 35 kids that must be "declared" prior to the first spring game.

The $64,000 question is whether all counters have to be on the final declared list of "student-athletes" who will be playing in the spring. It doesn't say that. But I have no doubt that someone at the NCAA told you that is how they are interpreting it.

It is clear that a kid is a counter as soon as he steps foot on campus. It is also clear that the money promised him is locked up until the next season, even if you cut him. But I cannot find anything that says that a counter has to be on the final declared squad list.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Slugger is correct.
The BB rep at the NCAA explained it to me.
Once you have contributed a BB scholarship to a player he is immediately considered on the Champ Roster as soon as he steps on campus. If you cut him he still occupies a roster spot even though he is cut. The fall roster is submitted to the NCAA. He is automatically deemed to be on the roster for the Champ round in the spring.

Cut him and you can't replace him. BB money is committed for the year.

MTH if you understood what I said about squads being reported to the NCAA. Next the NLI are automatically deemed to be on the Champ round squad the minute they step on campus. The BB money is locked for the year and the roster spot as well. Cut him and you cut a roster spot. Its actually very logical. They don't allow you to replace that guy if it takes you over 35. Since the spot is a lock and you are at 35 you can not replace him. If you are at a lower squad # you can only go to 34max plaus the guy you cut = 35.

Call them and they will explaine it to you. It was told to me by a BB representative. I didn't ask them they explained it to me as I am sure most peopl would not think about that. We have hashed this over several times in the past. It is deduced from the rules but is not clearly stated unless you talk t them.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BigDawg:
What is the impact of Red shirts on the "counter" toll?

They count.

We know a number of kids that signed with big time programs are were told at after fall workouts that they would be red shirts this season. Next year, will this impact how they handle the freshman?

Not sure of your question, but next year they have no NLI that guarantees them scholarship money.

TPM-

My question is whether a redshirted player on scholly "counts". It was my understanding in the past that the RS didn't count toward the 11.7.

BigDawg-
With this logic (assuming a school had unlimited funds), they could sign a bunch of guys to a total of 11.7 schollys, then RS them all. If they don't count, then they could sign a bunch more to schollys. Which I know is not the case, nor has it ever been.

But, maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean by "count"?????

I've been told several times that with the advent of the new rules, redshirted players (on scholly or not) will count toward the 30-27/35 max.

quote:

Originally posted by BigDawg:
TPM-

My question is whether a redshirted player on scholly "counts". It was my understanding in the past that the RS didn't count toward the 11.7.

Good question. You are correct the RS in the past never counted in the 11.7, that's why you could have 40+ on a team. Understand that a team does not have to fund 11.7, but now have max schollies they are allowed to give (they don't have to even do that), the roster cannot exceed 35 in the championship season including redshirts.

I will get back to you on that though.

With no squad and "counter" limitations, the current/old rules for the championship season ending 2008, RS monies still counted according to the bylaws...............

15.02.3 Counter. A “counter” is an individual who is receiving institutional financial aid that is countable against the aid limitations in a sport.

15.02.3.1 Initial Counter. [FBS/FCS] An “initial counter” is a counter who is receiving countable financial aid in a sport for the first time. (See Bylaw 15.5.5.3 in football for instances in which the institution is permitted to defer the counting of such financial aid until the following academic year.)

15.3.4.3 Reduction or Cancellation Not Permitted. Institutional financial aid based in any degree on athletics ability may not be increased, decreased or canceled during the period of its award:
(a) On the basis of a student-athlete’s athletics ability, performance or contribution to a team’s success;
(b) Because of an injury that prevents the recipient from participating in athletics; or
(c) For any other athletics reason.

15.3.4 Reduction and Cancellation during Period of Award.

15.3.4.1 Reduction or Cancellation Permitted. Institutional financial aid based in any degree on athletics ability may be reduced or canceled during the period of the award if the recipient:
(a) Renders himself or herself ineligible for intercollegiate competition;
(b) Fraudulently misrepresents any information on an application, letter of intent or financial aid agreement
(c) Engages in serious misconduct warranting substantial disciplinary penalty (see Bylaw 15.3.4.1.2); or
(d) Voluntarily withdraws from a sport at any time for personal reasons; however, the recipient’s financial aid may not be awarded to another student-athlete in the academic term in which the aid was reduced or cancelled. A student-athlete’s request for written permission to contact another four-year collegiate institution regarding a possible transfer does not constitute a voluntary withdrawal.

I was wrong unless anyone can find it otherwise.

Redshirts always counted in the 11.7.

Redshirts count in the 35 and so do the walkons. No hiding anyone anymore.

I guess this must have been a practice of some coaches, give a bit of $$, redshirt a player but still have him on the bench in case you need him because no one said that you couldn't have a limit.

In today's Atlanta Journal Constitution, there was an article on the Saturday 1/12/2008 vote of the override proposal of 2 of the new baseball rules. (The overrides did not pass.)

From the article:
As a result, baseball players who get any scholarship aid must now receive at least a quarter of a full scholarship (with the equivalent of 11.7 full scholarships divided among a maximum of 27 players), and the maximum squad size will be capped at 35.

[Georgia Tech baseball coach Danny] Hall has argued those rules diminish opportunities for athletes. [University of Georgia President Dr. Michael] Adams said they spare athletes from being subjected to "a quasi-tryout process."

Link to full AJC article

Tantrough, thanks so much for posting this. Guess the rules are set in stone now.