Roster size

I have to agree with RJM, it is not the intent or purpose here to put down programs, players or coaches.

But in a way I do understand concerns, 20 recruits signed with a now max 35 roster could cause alarm.
I do hope that their math adds up next spring without cutting players.

Baseball Maven,

I'm personal friends with Jason Eller and consider him a class guy. I'm not sure what he has done to your son, but in my personal experience Jason has been very honest with players that he has recruited from the Central Florida Renegades - my team. I know Jason from back in the days when he was coaching the East Cobb Tigers and he was a stand-up guy then and has not done anything I can see to suggest he is not a stand-up guy now.

I do have a problem with over recruiting. I think it's important to give a school like Georgia a chance to adjust to the new roster rules before making a judgment.

Also, not to throw anyone under the bus, but jason works for Dave Perno who sets the rules. I have no problem with Dave and think he is a good coach as well. My point is that Dave is Jason's boss and Jason has to follow his rules.

I'm upset because it seems that you are questioning Jason Eller's character. as someone who knows him personally I have a problem with that characterization. As a matter of fact I'd urge you to call Jason and allow him to explain his recruiting ideals to you.

God Bless,

Bob Pincus
Central Florida Renegades

Dear FloridaBaseballGuy,

Thank you for your rationale response. My issue with Jason Eller is that, during the WWBA in July '07, my son approached him to say hello (after multiple previous interactions) and while Ellers openly talked with multiple players during the WWBA, Ellers told him he was not supposed to speak with my son -- no explanation, just a rude retort. My son was embarrassed and did not know what to say.

One of our baseball advisors warned us this may happen due to other rude behaviors by Ellers. If Ellers is not interested in a player, he should just say so -- but that requires character and honesty.

Ironically, my son is academically and athletically gifted and had offers from a number of programs, virtually all superior to UGA. My son wanted to go to UGA since we live in Ga. By the way, he is nationally ranked by PG. I

find the recruiting approach at UGA disturbing and ultimately, I believe it is not in the best interests of players or UGA and I intend to make this an issue with both the Georgia University System as well as the legislature.

After my son's interaction with Ellers at the July WWBA event, I told him to avoid UGA at all costs -- he can do better, and he did.

We have several UGA signee friends who are very concerned about the UGA approach and UGA's player commitment. They have concluded that UGA has no player development commitment and UGA is just looking for the NBT (Next Big Thing). These signees regret they signed with UGA but now recognize that they are no longer a baseball asset since other programs are now prohibited from contacting them.

What a shame !! The UGA approach hurts both the players and the collegiate program.

OK RJM. Now reveal your name and answer my questions. How many recruits should a D-1 program have signed freshman commitments (with a roster of 35 per NCAA)? 20, 30, 50, 100? How many baseball player careers are worth ruining through over-recruiting? Should coaches be required to tell players that when they show up, they may not have the scholarship they expected?

Come on RJM, you seem to know it all. Please share your wisdom !!!

Dear RJM,

I will continue to tell the truth (which you call "ragging out coaches/programs").

What a shame that you would endorse telling someone to lead their son to go with a program which does not have their son's best interests at heart. It is a fact that UGA over-recruits (to the disadvantage of their signees) and the Atlanta Blue Jays has a history of high turnover (for a variety of reasons). According to your philosophy, I should say "All is well, everyone is above average and we should all adhere to the philosophy that 'the beatings will continue until morale improves'."

No way, buddy. I believe this blog is not a "pep rally". It is a forum for the truth. If you choose not to believe it, that's your problem.

Best wishes.

Baseball Maven

Why do you come on here and degrade a program and a coach---you don't like the procedures---then don't sign there---don't send your son there--you say you have other offers---look at them and take UGA off your list

"Your baseball advisors"---how many do you have ?

What does a PG rating have to do with this post?


You know if you look up the defination of "maven" I do not think you fit it

quote:

What a shame that you would endorse telling someone to lead their son to go with a program which does not have their son's best interests at heart.

It's interesting how people with an agenda sping things. I haven't endorsed anything. I've criticized a poster publicly ragging out specific programs and coaches without putting his name behind his words rathere than hit and run.

By the way. I'm not you "buddy."

I don't think that RJM endorsed anything, just a reminder that we try not to call out coaches and programs by name here, regardless of their practices. Even when we have bones to pick or scores to settle. I know people who are unhappy with many programs for one reason or another, but then for the same program there are 25 others that have no issue.

UGA's was being discussed but the coach was not bashed. There lies the difference, IMO.

Over recruiting is a fairly common occurance in college baseball. That's why it is so important to do your homework, watch programs that are recruiting your son, and sometimes realize the colors your son bleeds may not be the right school to play for. It's about "fit". Sometimes it's hard to see the negatives about a program you hold in high esteem.

We went through the same thing, many go through the same thing, a school gives you the cold shoulder, don't take it personally, move on.

Most coaches will not tell you they are uninterested, the bottom line is if they are not recruiting you they are not interested. Plain and simple.

It happened to mine with one school here in FL and he let them know who he was several times, facing them on the mound.

I don't get the remark about " all of our advisors" also, how many does your son have?

I can understand how someone could be upset, but...

Just for the record they didn’t recruit many last year. Only three freshman on the current roster. They’re roster this year is all of 26 players.

They have 12 draft eligible players including 4 that will be gone for sure (seniors). It’s possible they could have even more if they have any 2009 sophs who will be 21 and draft eligible.

This could (not likely but possible) leave them with 14 or less players heading into next year, that includes two who are redshirting this year and that’s before taking injuries, transfers, academics, etc. into consideration.

Typically the smallest class at a DI college is the senior class. Much of the best talent leaves after the junior season.

Looks like this was a year they needed a big recruiting class and they went out and got a very talented big recruiting class. Chances are that next year’s class will be much smaller because they will not need a large number of players.

Sometimes people don't realize how hard it is to figure this all out, the draft can hurt you bigtime or it won't.

The incoming players with an NLI HAVE to be on the roster for one year, that means if you haven't made a large contribution going into your senior year you could be gone. That's how it is, unfortunetly.

With the scenerio PG describes, and if it all happens the numbers will work, if not they have to go scrambling summer to find players. That's a whole different story than inviting more than you actually intend to use which I never felt was the case of UGA.

Not to justify over recruiting, but there are many factors that go into a recruiting class, especially at the highest levels of competition.

It’s hard to look at things as if there are four equal classes. Typically the senior class is by far the smallest. The top players in the junior class are draft eligible. Any sophomore that is 21 is draft eligible.

In addition to the above, the entire recruiting class of high school and JC players is draft eligible.

So unless a present roster has an extremely large number of sophomores and freshman who project to help WIN, there could be a need for a large recruiting class. Unfortunately at that level winning is that important, especially to those that make their living recruiting players.

If it was reasonable to think it could take 40 players total to make up a 35 man roster (allowing for red shirt, injury, academics, transfer, etc.)… You could assume 10 players per class on the average. However, the senior class is most always the smallest class, making the other classes needing additional players. So somewhere in the 20-25 range seems like an acceptable number of Freshman and Sophomores combined.

In the end it depends on the situation at an individual college whether it is considered over recruiting or not. It can’t be a simple (number of recruits) thing. One college could have 30 returning players while the next might have 20 or less returning players. One might need only a very few recruits while another might need a large number of recruits.

What really makes things tougher is in order to be a big winner you need the most talent possible. In many cases the very best talent is also the most likely to be drafted in early rounds and sign. In the case of Georgia this year or Arizona State who usually recruits many high profile players… They know they will lose a percentage of these recruits to the draft. When looking at Georgia and ASU’s recruiting classes I see a large number of players who are likely to get drafted and sign.

So should these very best players go unrecruited? That does happen to a certain extent at times because everyone knows the player will not end up in college. But, sometimes those very best do end up attending college. So it becomes a balancing issue, taking everything into consideration. Yes, sometimes a player can get hurt, but it’s not because a coach doesn’t really care. It’s because WINNING is the definition of success in the college coaching business at that level.

The responsibility of protecting the player should fall on the player and the parents. The coaching staffs are responsible for protecting their program, their family, their career. When something bad happens to an individual you care about, it hurts… But it sure would help if players and parents understood what can possibly happen before they make those important decisions.

It is a numbers game, but the numbers don’t always add up because the recruiters don’t have a crystal ball. The early recruiting class and the class that ends up on campus can be two completely different things. These coaches have to protect their programs!

Yes… Kids can get burnt! Kids can get burnt because the recruiting class is too large. But even kids in small recruiting classes can, and do, get burnt. Usually the kids who sign with a top college program as part of a big recruiting class aren’t worried about, or thinking about, getting burnt. They’re usually not the ones complaining about the large recruiting class.

Think of the bright side… Every time a college recruits an extremely large class, they are opening up more opportunities for players at other colleges. Rather than complain, maybe they should be thanked for taking a bunch of good players off the recruiting list of many other colleges.

IMO this falls under the category of “Don’t worry about the things you can’t control” Spending time complaining about what other people do, when that time should be spent thinking about what you should be doing. People have taken many different routes to the top!

Sorry, don’t mean to preach… There’s always a good chance that I’m wrong.

As far as evaluating preceding recruiting classes, for simplicity sake (sorry I can only deal with things this way), is it accurate to assume that if a program has a relatively high number of top recruits one year (ie GA, ASU) that you can figure the next year the number and quality of the recruits will be down? Given the small number of scholarships available etc. if you look at the top school's recruiting classes over a couple of years, do they resemble an up and down roller coaster from a quantitative and qualitative stand point?

The NCAA is trying to address the problem of inequity in scholly money by requiring a minimum of 25% for scholly players, a cap on scholly players and roster limit (to prevent circumventing the policy with non-BB scholly money) but there has to be a better way to do this. Of course with MLB having a HS draft, it certainly makes this all very difficult. One would hope the NCAA would come up with a better way to address this to protect the student athlete. As it is now, the NLI is binding on the player, but not the college. When players sign the NLI, they don't know if the college is going to sign 1 recruit or 21 -- if they knew this info, it would likely affect their decisions.

BTW, the NCAA D-1 11.7 scholly limit is way low, as is the 25% minimum. I believe (no scientific study here, just estimates) that the scolly limit should be 25, 50% minimum on a roster limit of 35. Of course, there will be arguments that this will be too costly -- but isn't the NCAA policy objective to spread scholly money more equitably among sports programs. After all, football has scholly money to fund 2+ full starting teams; similarly basketball.

Another approach would be to require the prospect as part of the NLI to declare that he intends to sign if drafted and if he rejects his draft pick, he will be designated to walk-on status with the minimum scolly money. In that way, the policy puts the student back into the term "student-athlete".

First of all you, me, GOD or any combination thereof will not sway the NCAA---they are autonomous and march to their own drummer--so forget about fighting them or making suggestions--it is what it is

Secondly if the the player has the talent and the desire, it matters not what the roster size is---he still has to earn his spot in the STARTING NINE---that is the same whether the roster is 25 or 55--if he cannot handle the competition then he does not belong there to begin with

So much for the concept of athlete-scholar concept. If no one raises the Scholly money and NLI/pro draft issues with the NCAA, they won't change.

However, they bowed to pressure regarding roster size so I don't think we should give up trying to sway the NCAA on the scholly limit NLI issues.

Ironically, the big state college programs have the most to lose if they can't sway the NCAA to address these issues and yet, I see more resistance than support for change. (eg, the strong resistance to the minimum scholly money concept and then the minimum being reduced from 33% to 25% last year at the last minute. Some coaches at big programs fought hard against minimum percent scholly money.)

With the recent negative federal focus on pro sports, state governments are now getting in on the act. We will likely going to see state legislation coming if the NCAA isn't seen as effective in balancing out money and rules for all sports. (Lot's of reasons here unrelated to sports such as slowing economy pinching budgets and causing scrutiny of football and basketball budgets along with increasing voting base of other sports due to Title IX.)

I don't think the NCAA wants to have their governance legislated but, unless they are more proactive, it will happen.

quote:

by bm: As it is now, the NLI is binding on the player, but not the college.

just the facts Jack ... nli IS binding to the college

quote:

by bm: require the prospect as part of the NLI to declare that he intends to sign if drafted and if he rejects his draft pick, he will be designated to walk-on status with the minimum scolly money. In that way, the policy puts the student back into the term "student-athlete".

I don't think you've given recruiting much thought ...

the whole point of recruiting is to get that player to campus - - in your plan he agrees NOT to come to school if another option presents itself


you then define a student-athlete as someone who'd

1) give up all leverage negotiating a pro contract
2) or punish himself by giving back already awarded athletic scholarship $$ if he attends school like he'd agreed to do.

ya may want to re-think that

Really, Bee? So when a more NLI players turn down the draft and show up at college than the college plans, the college doesn't have to cut players to meet the 35 player roster and/or count the scholly against the 11.7 limit? Now that's news !! Somebody better tell the NCAA.

Sorry but you are the one who needs some education on recruiting rules. Read the NCAA rules.

a little knowledge is dangerous ... and you're slowly approaching that level
w/out facts, you've made up some wacky situation, then declared

1) the sky is falling
2) London Bridge is falling down
3) Humpty Dumpty had a great fall (Az Fall League?)

R U Chris Matthews from MSNBC?



4) am reading an NLI right now, it's binding to both parties ...

5) the NLI program is independent & not ruled by the ncaa
5A) which ncaa rules r u referring 2?

Bee, you clearly don't know contract law or the NCAA rules or the official NLI. As an Old Timer, you are rapidly approaching senility.

Baseball Maven,

With all due respect, I dont know Ellers from a hole in the wall, and I of course wasn't there standing in your or your son's shoes, but...... is the below what really upset you?

quote:

during the WWBA in July '07, my son approached him to say hello (after multiple previous interactions) and while Ellers openly talked with multiple players during the WWBA, Ellers told him he was not supposed to speak with my son -- no explanation, just a rude retort. My son was embarrassed and did not know what to say.

One of our baseball advisors warned us this may happen due to other rude behaviors by Ellers.

Because of the above you responded to your son with:

quote:

After my son's interaction with Ellers at the July WWBA event, I told him to avoid UGA at all costs -- he can do better, and he did.

I dont understand. A coach tells your son he cant talk to him, and thus you tell your son to avoid UGA at all costs?
Glad your son had other options. He's fortunate.

I know plenty of kids who would give their right arm and left pinky toe for a chance to play at UGA and if the the above mentioned interaction happened between them and the coach, dont think they would have even blinked, let alone let it change their desire to be a part of that team.

I must be missing something here.

( Just curious, you all have more than one advisor? )


You just started posting here on the HSBBW and threw out a big piece of beef ( for lack of a better word ) onto the table/forum.
You had to expect some questioning before anyone would consider biting into what you had to offer, if ever.
You made BIG statements and accused a coach and a university of using an " abusive " recruiting stratedgy. Agree with or disagree with your statements, that's bound to raise some eyebrows, one way or another.


P.S.
In the meantime,...please go back and re-read your posts along with the board manners. Why such a big bee buzzin' in your bonnet?
( no offense to the analogy Bee> )

What???? No fruit basket offered before you toss out the insults? That's not exactly neighborly, Baseball Maven.
Just as your son was taken back by what you described as a rude retort from a coach, it is possible that other posters may find your retorts rude as well.


Here are some examples of what I am speaking about:

Baseball Maven quotes in this thread:

quote:

How dare you place yourself as moderator and "bossman". So regarding your blind loyalty to Anthony Dye of the Atlanta Blue Jays versus my actual experience -- tuf tooties, buddy.

quote:

You are a real sport, pal !!

quote:

What's wrong with you?

quote:

No way, buddy. I believe this blog is not a "pep rally". It is a forum for the truth. If you choose not to believe it, that's your problem.

quote:

If you want to censor others, go develop your own web site.

quote:

Sorry but you are the one who needs some education on recruiting rules

quote:

Dear Beloved RJM:

quote:

Come on RJM, you seem to know it all. Please share your wisdom !!!

quote:

As an Old Timer, you are rapidly approaching senility.

Geeesh.
Ya coulda at least shared a few grapes and tossed out a few bites of banana to us first.


Although I gotta admit,...the use of " tuf tooties "
in any context, makes me chuckle.

BASEBALL MAVEN

Just so you are aware the rules state that the college coach cannot speak with a player at a showcase/tournament until he is done with the event

TR Hit

quote:

Just so you are aware the rules state that the college coach cannot speak with a player at a showcase/tournament until he is done with the event

TRhit

TRhit: You are correct. Interestingly in the incident I am referring to this was a case of Ellers saying hi and innocuous chit-chat to lots of players, not really speaking to them in a discussion/recruiting sense. And that is OK, I think. But then being rude to a player who just says hi (just like the others) is uncalled for.

If a coach treats a recruit rudely before the signing, one cannot expect the treatment will improve -- so the best advice is stay away, don't waste time -- pursue other options.

The point here is that players at that level know other players/scouts/coaches and they share their experiences. No need to pick out a kid and say something rude to embarrass him. After all these kids see the coaches as authority figures. He learned a good lesson that day -- that even authority figures have to earn respect from others. And if they don't want to earn it, they don't deserve it.

My advice was to move on to a program that met his objectives: high level competition, strong academics, commitment to players, early playing time, good chemistry with coaches, good scholly money. UGA clearly didn't fit, no big deal, ancient history.

quote:

no big deal, ancient history.

????????????? HUH?????????
No big deal??? Then why did you bring it up here and say that this is one of the reasons you had " an issue with this coach? "....I believe you said something else about avoiding this coach " like the plague " if I remember correctly.

I read your post and felt you were very compelled by your thoughts:

quote:

I find the recruiting approach at UGA disturbing and ultimately, I believe it is not in the best interests of players or UGA and I intend to make this an issue with both the Georgia University System as well as the legislature.

Now its no big deal???
I'm confused, getting dizzy-(er).

Rude crude etc is in the eye of the beholder !!!

There may be more to this than we read here


Is it me or are we all of sudden getting the newbie drop ins with "attitude"---seems to be a heck of a lot of them lately--bashing coaches etc---are we on AOL or YAHOO now ???

To ShortStopMom,

You have a point. What surprises me about some of these comments is what appears to be fatalism (you can't change the NCAA); strong arguments in favor of over-recruiting; lack of support to increase the scolly money/limits and lastly, a very few folks who have some opinions not based on the facts (NCAA rules, NLI, etc.)

My "rudeness" was directed at only a couple of people who clearly advocate "status quo" in a NCAA process that hurts both college baseball programs and "STUDENT athletes" and causes adverse behaviors by both parties.

While most posters recognize the overrecruiting issue is a dangerous one for both colleges and STUDENT athletes, a couple of them posted rude/ignorant responses that, unfortunately, I responded to in a rude manner. I apologize for offending others. It is clear that those who advocate over-recruiting don't have the STUDENT athletes' interests as a priority -- and it doesn't serve well either college programs or players.

If a kid wants to go pro and forego an NLI, more power to him -- but in life there are always risks and rewards in every decision. Unfortunately, the current process results in the same kind of deceptive behaviors by some college recruiters. So, I believe there should be an increase in the number of scholarships (say to 25), increase in minimum scholly money (say 50%), and a guarantee to those who really "commit" versus those who want the best of both worlds. If a player is really good and doesn't take the draft, he isn't knock out -- but he isn't knocking out someone who did commit.

If raw competition is all about lying and failing to honor commitments then any program/player who does it will ultimately get what they deserve. That's OK with me -- just don't crush others who are honest and also, promote rules changes that will help all parties.

quote:

by bm: answer my questions. How many recruits should a D-1 program have signed freshman commitments (with a roster of 35 per NCAA)? 20, 30, 50, 100?

if UGA I'll take "100" ...
Tech grads need lawn care, pizza delivery, car wash, etc

Baseball Maven,

Civility is effective. Doesnt mean we have to agree, but it is effective.

Many thought provoking issues at hand.
I hope we can continue the discussion with the gloves off and " tact " strategically lodged in all of our typing hand(s).

( For Gotwood,....and myself, make that lodged in our typing finger. )

This reminds me of how the U treated son. He went down senior summer to play a tourney at Mark Light. While the coaches were falling all over other players, they didn't say one word to him (and they had been recruiting him by phone calls).
Two weeks later a call for an unofficial visit. See ya coach. Got over it.

We expect honesty from coaches in the process and not for them to over recruit. But we have kids signing then entertaining every MLB scout in their home for a visit. I don't like over recruting, but I have to say my son as well as ourselves participated in the above process, he considered pro option even after he signed. That creates large problems for many programs.

No way do I beleive that there should be 25 scholarships or 50% minimum in college baseball. Your players would be dropped like hot potatoes each year. Coach is not going to spend that on a marginal player who can't help the program significantly, no way.



Get over it, it happens to everyone.

quote:

Get over it, it happens to everyone.

Maybe it's just me, but that just sounds so mean spirited. Maybe I'm just to soft hearted.

Yes, TPM, is is way too easy to get caught up in the process.

Players get dropped like hot potatoes already however due to the 11.7 limit. More scholarships would improve player and college commitment the greater minimum percent would be very tempting for the mid-round draft choices who wish to pursue an education and hopefully improve their draft position in 3-4 years. MLB won't like it but hopefully the grad rate improves -- after all, the top draft choices are almost certain to go pro regardless of NLI.

quote:

Originally posted by thats-a-balk!:

quote:

Get over it, it happens to everyone.

Maybe it's just me, but that just sounds so mean spirited. Maybe I'm just to soft hearted.

I am by nature a softie.

However, what's the sense of dwelling on it? What purpose does it serve to have it fester inside of you. BM has said his son has signed with a school, and that should be the focus.