What is the general rule about this. I know they need to do it but is it the day they throw or the day after. How far for how many pitches or innings? If anyone has a source of info it would be great. Thanks
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Here are the guidelines we have been using with very good success:
-- Run, Powerwalk, Bike, Treadmill, Eliptical, this does not matter; for at least 1/3 of your pitch count (throw 75 pitches, run 25 minutes). Stay out of the pool ... this is shoulder loosening.
-- Maintain the pace for "conversational aerobic" activity ... you can still carry on a conversation ... not breathing too hard.
-- Start as soon as you can after coming off the mound (we have Pitchers jog mid-game if possible, particularly if we may need them in the field later -- position re-entry, or DH days). Certainly do it within 24 hours, the longer you wait, the more the lactic acid & toxins get a chance to settle in.
-- Jog before ice, or during ice if the arm is tender. The goal of the aerobic exercise is to expel the bad stuff built up by the anaerobic activity of pitching. Ice constricts blood vessels, naroowling the escape route, jogging opens blood vessels. A little common sense here.
-- Limit ice to helping alleviate soreness. The cardio work is what actually starts the rehab.
We have developed this with input from the National Pitching Association, and top HS/College coaches. We have had great success maintaining arm health, and we beleive this is one key element of our success. I hope this helps.
-- Run, Powerwalk, Bike, Treadmill, Eliptical, this does not matter; for at least 1/3 of your pitch count (throw 75 pitches, run 25 minutes). Stay out of the pool ... this is shoulder loosening.
-- Maintain the pace for "conversational aerobic" activity ... you can still carry on a conversation ... not breathing too hard.
-- Start as soon as you can after coming off the mound (we have Pitchers jog mid-game if possible, particularly if we may need them in the field later -- position re-entry, or DH days). Certainly do it within 24 hours, the longer you wait, the more the lactic acid & toxins get a chance to settle in.
-- Jog before ice, or during ice if the arm is tender. The goal of the aerobic exercise is to expel the bad stuff built up by the anaerobic activity of pitching. Ice constricts blood vessels, naroowling the escape route, jogging opens blood vessels. A little common sense here.
-- Limit ice to helping alleviate soreness. The cardio work is what actually starts the rehab.
We have developed this with input from the National Pitching Association, and top HS/College coaches. We have had great success maintaining arm health, and we beleive this is one key element of our success. I hope this helps.
Perfect. Consistent with ASMI advice. Their web site is at: http://www.asmi.org/
My son (a starting pitcher) always jogs for about 3-4 mi after each start which is 30-45 mins as soon as he gets home from a game. I belive the sooner the better.
The only additional thing he does is get in a good "decelerator" arm band work out as soon as he comes off the mound.
The other area that is always missed is to make sure you get the body temp up before starting to throw. Easy to remember No sweat No throw.
My son (a starting pitcher) always jogs for about 3-4 mi after each start which is 30-45 mins as soon as he gets home from a game. I belive the sooner the better.
The only additional thing he does is get in a good "decelerator" arm band work out as soon as he comes off the mound.
The other area that is always missed is to make sure you get the body temp up before starting to throw. Easy to remember No sweat No throw.
Our pitchers have various means of prep before the game and as well after
Most of our Dominican arms like to run before the game as well as after
Many kids will run immediately after they come off the mound. Others don't like to
We also do a lot of stretching before the game along with minimal running after they are stretched out. This gets them all in a "sweat" not just the pitchers.
We also like to see the pitchers throw more than they may need to in the bullpen before the game just to make sure they are loose. Not being properly warmed up is usually the reason for first inning struggles for a pitcher.
Since we don't have the arms other than in the Fall the pitchers usually come to us pretty set in their ways and have been successful doing it their way so we try not to change too many things. We are not into icing but if pitcher comes to us who regularly ices as part of his routine then we let him continue to do so.
One other thing we do is have the pitchers throw the next day so we can get an idea of how they feel. If a pitcher who also plays a position tells us he feels tight he won't go to the field. He will DH or EH.
We even had a boy who did nothing but run and long toss before his start---he went on to be a Division I College All American and is now pitching at the high A level in this his second season of pro ball
Different stokes for different folks !!!!
Most of our Dominican arms like to run before the game as well as after
Many kids will run immediately after they come off the mound. Others don't like to
We also do a lot of stretching before the game along with minimal running after they are stretched out. This gets them all in a "sweat" not just the pitchers.
We also like to see the pitchers throw more than they may need to in the bullpen before the game just to make sure they are loose. Not being properly warmed up is usually the reason for first inning struggles for a pitcher.
Since we don't have the arms other than in the Fall the pitchers usually come to us pretty set in their ways and have been successful doing it their way so we try not to change too many things. We are not into icing but if pitcher comes to us who regularly ices as part of his routine then we let him continue to do so.
One other thing we do is have the pitchers throw the next day so we can get an idea of how they feel. If a pitcher who also plays a position tells us he feels tight he won't go to the field. He will DH or EH.
We even had a boy who did nothing but run and long toss before his start---he went on to be a Division I College All American and is now pitching at the high A level in this his second season of pro ball
Different stokes for different folks !!!!
There are many thoughts and methods of what pitchers do concerning this but very limited research to back the actual results. As well each player's body responds differently.
What I actually do is have my guys do nothing except maybe ice depending on their work load and pitch count. The thought behind this is to stop the heavy flow of blood into the area and let the body go to a normal state. With heavy running there is more pressure and bleeding in the arm from the increased blood flow. For those that say "lactic acid" builds ups they need to learn more about aerobic and anaerobic systems and what creates lactic acid.
The next day I have my pitchers weight lift and do their flush with running a series of sprints. Sprints mimic more of the anaerobic system they use in the actual act of pitching and they still get the blood flow for the flush. This will then clear out the damage that was done from throwing and help in the recovery period.
Again I am not saying this is a proven method of the best recovery from pitching. Every player recovers different and from different approaches. I go by this because of how my own personal experience as a pitcher and how I recovered from this as well as how my pitchers have responded well to this formula.
What I actually do is have my guys do nothing except maybe ice depending on their work load and pitch count. The thought behind this is to stop the heavy flow of blood into the area and let the body go to a normal state. With heavy running there is more pressure and bleeding in the arm from the increased blood flow. For those that say "lactic acid" builds ups they need to learn more about aerobic and anaerobic systems and what creates lactic acid.
The next day I have my pitchers weight lift and do their flush with running a series of sprints. Sprints mimic more of the anaerobic system they use in the actual act of pitching and they still get the blood flow for the flush. This will then clear out the damage that was done from throwing and help in the recovery period.
Again I am not saying this is a proven method of the best recovery from pitching. Every player recovers different and from different approaches. I go by this because of how my own personal experience as a pitcher and how I recovered from this as well as how my pitchers have responded well to this formula.
There are some good thoughts here ... I'm going to sound like a broken record, or a shill for the NPA, but they have recently published a lot of good research on this topic. Through their collaboration with other research bodies, the NPA (www.nationalpitching.net) has become the best resource I know of for info on pitching, and pitcher health & maintenance. You'll be surprised at what the research is showing about ice. I suggest that all my pitchers (and their parents) join the NPa and study up on the info they publish.
Keep in mind that every arm is different ---what is good for one arm is not necessarily so for another
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
Keep in mind that every arm is different ---what is good for one arm is not necessarily so for another
I am not sure what point you are trying to get across with this comment. The basic care and maintenance of an arm/body of a pitcher should fundamentally be the same regardless of the "arm type". From what I have seen observing my sons first year of HS, very few HS pitchers really understand this and take a preventative approach both prior and after pitching in maintaining good arm care. There is some good advice in this thread and to suggest that someone should not heed some of it because he has a slightly "different" arm seems foolish to me.
BOF
Where I say do not heed the information ?---I am just making the poing that each arm is not the same as another and each body reacts differntly ---your sons arm and body will react differently in his senior year as against the way it reacts now.
As for the foolish comment let me ask you this --how many arms have you seen other than your sons?
Where I say do not heed the information ?---I am just making the poing that each arm is not the same as another and each body reacts differntly ---your sons arm and body will react differently in his senior year as against the way it reacts now.
As for the foolish comment let me ask you this --how many arms have you seen other than your sons?
That is certainly true. But his fundamental approach to arm care will always be the same. He will always warm up the same way, he will always cool down the same way, he will do his post pitching work the same way, he will always long toss the same way, he will always do his bull pens the same way, he will do his conditioning and stretching the same way. The fundamentals will always be the same. He of coarse will add in activity as the science of pitching evolves, but the fundamentals will always be the same.
My point is that the differences between arms and arm CARE should be minor. I.E. maybe one kid may recover slower than another so maybe he will have to adjust his workouts accordingly.
What I have observed is that the fundamentals are often ignored and it is important to point out that the differences in arm care between pitchers should be MINOR adjustments, when in fact there are major deficiencies in this area. That is why your post caught my eye and seemed a little disingenuous.
I don't pretend to know everything about pitching, but I know more than most. My experience is from HS down and I guess I have watched seriously or coached 300 or so different pitchers. We have been fortunate to have been able to go to some of the most knowledgeable pitching and arm care coaches in the country and I have a very extensive library on arm care and pitching.
My point is that the differences between arms and arm CARE should be minor. I.E. maybe one kid may recover slower than another so maybe he will have to adjust his workouts accordingly.
What I have observed is that the fundamentals are often ignored and it is important to point out that the differences in arm care between pitchers should be MINOR adjustments, when in fact there are major deficiencies in this area. That is why your post caught my eye and seemed a little disingenuous.
I don't pretend to know everything about pitching, but I know more than most. My experience is from HS down and I guess I have watched seriously or coached 300 or so different pitchers. We have been fortunate to have been able to go to some of the most knowledgeable pitching and arm care coaches in the country and I have a very extensive library on arm care and pitching.
I've always wondered this myself... I was very religious about running after starts and have my guys run now as a coach, but I must admit that I am not even sure of the chemistry behind it. Based on what I know about it, running and icing appear to have an opposite effect on the blood vessels around the shoulder and arm... any doctors or chemists out there?
I think SPD's advice is spot on.
ASMI is doing formal research on this right now, if you dig around on their site you can find information on it.
Their current recomendations are for aerobic activity after pitching and then if desired (not necessary) light icing.
ASMI is doing formal research on this right now, if you dig around on their site you can find information on it.
Their current recomendations are for aerobic activity after pitching and then if desired (not necessary) light icing.
I am no Doctor, but I know that it takes about twenty minutes for a blood cell to travel completely around your body. In other words, go from your heart, thru the body, and back to your heart. So, in twenty minutes you get one "flush" of the lactic acid in the shoulder/arm. Any type of aerobic activity that elevates your heart rate for twenty minutes is ok.
I'm not a Doctor or a scientist. I am just a guy with a 4" scar on my left shoulder. The result of throwing too many pitches, too often, for too long, with mechanics that did not fit my genetics, without the aid of all that has been learned in the last 10 years.
What I put forward above comes from the orthopedic surgeon (who rebuilt my shoulder); the other one who helped me avoid surgery on my knees; our work with an NPA-centric coach helping train my young pitchers; and my avid reading of NPA and AMSI research.
I have coached dozens of young pitchers over the past few years (ages 10-16). I am a fanatic about tracking pitch counts; rest periods; proper warm-up's; and cardio over ice in rehab. Since getting in line with the NPA and AMSI, I have not had a single kid have a sore arm who embraced what we prescribe -- I have had sore arms amongst those who did not follow the program.
The simple logic that my always-sore shoulder tells me is right (and that the professionals tell me is medically correct) goes like this ...
-- Pitching is an anaerobic activity, which builds lactic acid and other bad stuff in the critical muscle/joint areas
-- Healing begins when the body gets to flush out the bad stuff, which requires blood flow. Ice, although soothing, constricts the blood vessels; which narrows the escape routes, making it harder for the body to flush the bad stuff, and start the rehab process.
-- Light aerobic activity enhances blood circulation, allowing the body to flush the toxins, to begin the rehab process. According to the NPA publications, they say that a little ice to help sooth hot spots can be applied as well. Check out their books and publications for their professional advice. We follow the guideline of 1/3 the pitch count (75 pitches = 25 minutes aerobic activity).
-- The sooner the better. When possible, I like to get a pitcher out of the game, and into his running shoes immediately. Particularly if I may need him as a position player later in the game, or in the 2nd half of a double header. He may not get all of his running in, but at least we get the process started. At the outside, the aerobic activity needs to be done within 24 hours.
-- Taking this all a step further, you will find the NPA and AMSI have some good guidelines for establishing a routine for how to rehab and train between outtings on the mound.
-- Another key element is integrating a routine for joint integrity, stability, mobility and flexibility that becomes part of your training and pre-game programs. Some folks laugh at my guys as they go through their warm-up routine, but they don't laugh at their results, or their ability to perform consistently without injury.
I hope there is something in all of this that is helpful to someone. The best thing I can tell you is to get involved with the NPA & ASMI if you are serious about staying on top of the most contemporary research in the world of pitching.
May all of your players pitch well, and long, in good health.
What I put forward above comes from the orthopedic surgeon (who rebuilt my shoulder); the other one who helped me avoid surgery on my knees; our work with an NPA-centric coach helping train my young pitchers; and my avid reading of NPA and AMSI research.
I have coached dozens of young pitchers over the past few years (ages 10-16). I am a fanatic about tracking pitch counts; rest periods; proper warm-up's; and cardio over ice in rehab. Since getting in line with the NPA and AMSI, I have not had a single kid have a sore arm who embraced what we prescribe -- I have had sore arms amongst those who did not follow the program.
The simple logic that my always-sore shoulder tells me is right (and that the professionals tell me is medically correct) goes like this ...
-- Pitching is an anaerobic activity, which builds lactic acid and other bad stuff in the critical muscle/joint areas
-- Healing begins when the body gets to flush out the bad stuff, which requires blood flow. Ice, although soothing, constricts the blood vessels; which narrows the escape routes, making it harder for the body to flush the bad stuff, and start the rehab process.
-- Light aerobic activity enhances blood circulation, allowing the body to flush the toxins, to begin the rehab process. According to the NPA publications, they say that a little ice to help sooth hot spots can be applied as well. Check out their books and publications for their professional advice. We follow the guideline of 1/3 the pitch count (75 pitches = 25 minutes aerobic activity).
-- The sooner the better. When possible, I like to get a pitcher out of the game, and into his running shoes immediately. Particularly if I may need him as a position player later in the game, or in the 2nd half of a double header. He may not get all of his running in, but at least we get the process started. At the outside, the aerobic activity needs to be done within 24 hours.
-- Taking this all a step further, you will find the NPA and AMSI have some good guidelines for establishing a routine for how to rehab and train between outtings on the mound.
-- Another key element is integrating a routine for joint integrity, stability, mobility and flexibility that becomes part of your training and pre-game programs. Some folks laugh at my guys as they go through their warm-up routine, but they don't laugh at their results, or their ability to perform consistently without injury.
I hope there is something in all of this that is helpful to someone. The best thing I can tell you is to get involved with the NPA & ASMI if you are serious about staying on top of the most contemporary research in the world of pitching.
May all of your players pitch well, and long, in good health.
Southpaw_dad,
Great post. One of the strengths of the NPA is that they don't operate in a vacuum. Dr. Glen Fleisig of the ASMI, Drl. Arnel Aguinaldo of San Diego Childrens Hospital, and Dr. James Andrews of The Andrews Institute are all on the NPA advisory board. Collaborations with other organizations adds a level of credibility that can't be beat.
Regarding aerobic work to increase blood flow, blood flow doesn't just flush the bad stuff - it also delivers the good stuff (oxygen and nutrients) to the parts of the body needing to recover/repair.
By the way, my travel team did the NPA warm-up routine for 2 years and we developed no arm issues during that time.
Great post. One of the strengths of the NPA is that they don't operate in a vacuum. Dr. Glen Fleisig of the ASMI, Drl. Arnel Aguinaldo of San Diego Childrens Hospital, and Dr. James Andrews of The Andrews Institute are all on the NPA advisory board. Collaborations with other organizations adds a level of credibility that can't be beat.
Regarding aerobic work to increase blood flow, blood flow doesn't just flush the bad stuff - it also delivers the good stuff (oxygen and nutrients) to the parts of the body needing to recover/repair.
By the way, my travel team did the NPA warm-up routine for 2 years and we developed no arm issues during that time.
Dr.Marshall teaches us that when athletes train aerobically, they use their Slow-Twitch Oxidative muscle fibers. To resynthesize Adenosine-Tri-Phosphate molecules for muscle contraction, Slow-Twitch Oxidative muscle fibers metabolize muscle glycogen and muscle triglycerides. The waste products from this process are carbon-dioxide and water.
When athletes train anaerobically, they use their Fast-Twitch Glycolytic muscle fibers. To resynthesize Adenosine-Tri-Phosphate molecules for muscle contraction, Fast-Twitch Glycolytic muscle fibers metabolize muscle glycogen. The waste product from this process is lactic acid.
However, even though baseball pitchers train at their maximum intensity, they do not produce lactic acid, which means that they do not train anaerobically. However, Slow-Twitch Oxidative muscle fibers cannot achieve the maximum contractile velocity that Fast-Twitch Glycolytic muscle fibers achieve.
The third type of muscle fiber known in the human body is the Fast-Twitch Phosphagenic muscle fiber. Fast-Twitch Phosphagenic muscle fibers resynthesize Adenosine-Tri-Phosphate molecules with a coupled-biochemical reaction, not by metabolizing substrates. Exercise Physiologists believe that, except in fight or flight situations, we cannot access this energy system.
To train athletes aerobically, exercise physiologists use equal work and recovery intervals. To train athletes anaerobically, exercise physiologists use rest intervals six times longer than the work interval.
In baseball pitching, baseball pitchers maximally apply force for two-tenths of a second and can rest for a maximum of twenty seconds. Even at ten seconds of rest between baseball pitches, baseball pitchers rest for fifty times their work interval.
In laymens terms this means no lactic acid is produced by Ballistic activities.
That everybody continues to mistakenly believe in the value of 'stretching,' only shows that they are not aware of the research. The Center for Disease Control says that 'stretching' causes more harm than good. This is especially true for athletes in ballistic activities, like baseball pitching. Many other clinical studies using thousands of test subjects say the same thing. The biggest no no is over statically stretching the shoulder capsule. The best warm ups involve aggressive field agilities then some Jobe tubing exercises then throw.
When baseball pitcher place ice on their pitching arm, the body wants to protect its core temperature. To do this, the body restricts the blood flow to the cold area. However, after several minutes of reduced blood flow, the tissues that depend on that blood flow to receive nutrients, such as oxygen, start to complain. This is the discomfort that pitchers experience. Without oxygen, tissues cannot function and if this situation lasts too long, the tissues will die. To prevent this, the body decides that protecting the core temperature is less important than the life of these tissues. As a result, rather than restrict blood flow to the area, the body floods the area with blood,(at 20 mins.) which brings oxygen and other nutrients and carries away any waste products. The scientific term for this phenomenon is 'Reactive Hyperemia.'
Contrary to popular opinion, icing does not prevent swelling by closing down blood vessels; instead, it increases blood flow. Without blood flow, the body cannot replenish and repair itself. Also, when baseball pitchers use the 'traditional' pitching motion, they injure their pitching arm to some degree with every pitch. Therefore, icing is a passive way of helping the pitching arm to heal these injuries.
To increase blood flow to the pitching muscles after pitching, after they have completely cooled down after their high-intensity pitching, pitchers should throw twenty-four more baseballs. They should start gently and gradually increase their intensity to about three-quarters full intensity and then gently and gradually decrease their intensity. To be clear, I do not disagree with icing. However, actively increasing blood flow brings more oxygen and nutrients more quickly. Warm down much better.
When athletes train anaerobically, they use their Fast-Twitch Glycolytic muscle fibers. To resynthesize Adenosine-Tri-Phosphate molecules for muscle contraction, Fast-Twitch Glycolytic muscle fibers metabolize muscle glycogen. The waste product from this process is lactic acid.
However, even though baseball pitchers train at their maximum intensity, they do not produce lactic acid, which means that they do not train anaerobically. However, Slow-Twitch Oxidative muscle fibers cannot achieve the maximum contractile velocity that Fast-Twitch Glycolytic muscle fibers achieve.
The third type of muscle fiber known in the human body is the Fast-Twitch Phosphagenic muscle fiber. Fast-Twitch Phosphagenic muscle fibers resynthesize Adenosine-Tri-Phosphate molecules with a coupled-biochemical reaction, not by metabolizing substrates. Exercise Physiologists believe that, except in fight or flight situations, we cannot access this energy system.
To train athletes aerobically, exercise physiologists use equal work and recovery intervals. To train athletes anaerobically, exercise physiologists use rest intervals six times longer than the work interval.
In baseball pitching, baseball pitchers maximally apply force for two-tenths of a second and can rest for a maximum of twenty seconds. Even at ten seconds of rest between baseball pitches, baseball pitchers rest for fifty times their work interval.
In laymens terms this means no lactic acid is produced by Ballistic activities.
That everybody continues to mistakenly believe in the value of 'stretching,' only shows that they are not aware of the research. The Center for Disease Control says that 'stretching' causes more harm than good. This is especially true for athletes in ballistic activities, like baseball pitching. Many other clinical studies using thousands of test subjects say the same thing. The biggest no no is over statically stretching the shoulder capsule. The best warm ups involve aggressive field agilities then some Jobe tubing exercises then throw.
When baseball pitcher place ice on their pitching arm, the body wants to protect its core temperature. To do this, the body restricts the blood flow to the cold area. However, after several minutes of reduced blood flow, the tissues that depend on that blood flow to receive nutrients, such as oxygen, start to complain. This is the discomfort that pitchers experience. Without oxygen, tissues cannot function and if this situation lasts too long, the tissues will die. To prevent this, the body decides that protecting the core temperature is less important than the life of these tissues. As a result, rather than restrict blood flow to the area, the body floods the area with blood,(at 20 mins.) which brings oxygen and other nutrients and carries away any waste products. The scientific term for this phenomenon is 'Reactive Hyperemia.'
Contrary to popular opinion, icing does not prevent swelling by closing down blood vessels; instead, it increases blood flow. Without blood flow, the body cannot replenish and repair itself. Also, when baseball pitchers use the 'traditional' pitching motion, they injure their pitching arm to some degree with every pitch. Therefore, icing is a passive way of helping the pitching arm to heal these injuries.
To increase blood flow to the pitching muscles after pitching, after they have completely cooled down after their high-intensity pitching, pitchers should throw twenty-four more baseballs. They should start gently and gradually increase their intensity to about three-quarters full intensity and then gently and gradually decrease their intensity. To be clear, I do not disagree with icing. However, actively increasing blood flow brings more oxygen and nutrients more quickly. Warm down much better.
Yardbird
By using the term "in laymans terms" you infer that you are not a layman? If this is so what and who are you other than a guy who has given instruction for 30 years, as your profile states?
A lot of huge terms being used
By using the term "in laymans terms" you infer that you are not a layman? If this is so what and who are you other than a guy who has given instruction for 30 years, as your profile states?
A lot of huge terms being used
Oooooo NOOooo were heading into the Dr. Mike Marshall hell hole......
I was going to cut and paste Yarbird's gobbledygook on get ASMI's opinion of it...but I thought about it and figured it was a waste of time.
I did however pull this off of ASMI's site, and this is what Dr. Fleisig gave as a response regarding his opinion of Dr. Marshall. (who is NOT a medical Dr by the way)
"I think the issue is not "right and wrong," but simply different approaches. As a non-profit research and education organization, ASMI has studied baseball pitching injuries by collecting data on 1000+ pitchers tested in our biomechanics lab. Based upon these data, we have calculated the kinematics (motions) and kinetics (forces) of elite and less successful pitchers. These calculations are based upon the laws of physics and principles of biomechanics. We then interpreted these findings with our colleagues with education in orthopaedics, biomechanics, physical therapy, as well as people with baseball experience. The findings and interpretations continue to be submitted, reviewed, and published in peer-review publications.
It's not my place to speak for other organizations, but I will share with you my impression of Dr. Marshall's approach. Perhaps he or someone else can address if I am wrong here. Anyway, it seems that Dr. Marshall has come up with a theoretical method for effective pitching based upon the principles of physics. What he has come up with is vastly different than what most pitchers do currently in professional baseball and different from previous pros as well.
Dr. Marshall's technique being vastly different than most others does not make it right or wrong. ASMI has used an "empirical" approach showing what pitchers do and combined this with knowledge of what the human joints can and cannot do. Dr. Marshall has used a "theoretical" approach, which may or may not lead to better pitching in the future."
I won't repeat the ASMI's recommendations as they are further up the thread and are on their site.
I was going to cut and paste Yarbird's gobbledygook on get ASMI's opinion of it...but I thought about it and figured it was a waste of time.
I did however pull this off of ASMI's site, and this is what Dr. Fleisig gave as a response regarding his opinion of Dr. Marshall. (who is NOT a medical Dr by the way)
"I think the issue is not "right and wrong," but simply different approaches. As a non-profit research and education organization, ASMI has studied baseball pitching injuries by collecting data on 1000+ pitchers tested in our biomechanics lab. Based upon these data, we have calculated the kinematics (motions) and kinetics (forces) of elite and less successful pitchers. These calculations are based upon the laws of physics and principles of biomechanics. We then interpreted these findings with our colleagues with education in orthopaedics, biomechanics, physical therapy, as well as people with baseball experience. The findings and interpretations continue to be submitted, reviewed, and published in peer-review publications.
It's not my place to speak for other organizations, but I will share with you my impression of Dr. Marshall's approach. Perhaps he or someone else can address if I am wrong here. Anyway, it seems that Dr. Marshall has come up with a theoretical method for effective pitching based upon the principles of physics. What he has come up with is vastly different than what most pitchers do currently in professional baseball and different from previous pros as well.
Dr. Marshall's technique being vastly different than most others does not make it right or wrong. ASMI has used an "empirical" approach showing what pitchers do and combined this with knowledge of what the human joints can and cannot do. Dr. Marshall has used a "theoretical" approach, which may or may not lead to better pitching in the future."
I won't repeat the ASMI's recommendations as they are further up the thread and are on their site.
quote:Originally posted by Yardbird:
That everybody continues to mistakenly believe in the value of 'stretching,' only shows that they are not aware of the research.
It's not clear who you're referring to when you say "everybody". The NPA warm-up routine I referred to is a dynamic warm-up routine - not static stretching.
BTW, I think you meant to say "...the value of 'stretching' as a warm-up activity...". There certainly is value in proper stretching as a way to maintain or increase flexibility.
BOF,
Right, his expertise is, Kinesiology, exercise physiology and Motor skill acquisition, OOOOOOh he did take pre-med classes that were not part of his curriculum. He learned this gobbledygook by graduating from that hell hole Michigan State Uni.
It is already known that ASMI does anecdotal research (Noly did it that way, so that’s why he throws so hard). Researching a mechanic that produces injurious affects will only give you injurious affects like the two Rice uni. Starting pitchers from a few years back that worked with ASMI. What’s that got to do with Running after pitching? Show us what they think about this subject, that’s all I did.
“1000+ pitchers tested in our biomechanics lab” all traditional
There sure is some nasty posters here, Kharma must have really worked you guys? Do you all really miss him that much to carry it over to any Marshall post. You may wan't to wake up, it's coming on slow but it's coming even with all the bad mouthing and false statements from non practitioners.
Even Fleisig at ASMI has invited Marshall over for discussion and mechanical evaluation.
Roger Tomas,
Joints need only blood flow warm up in their sport specific natural range of motion not stretching. Maybe everybody is to strong a word that Marshall used because lately some are getting it but the word and implementation is very hard for traditional thinkers to overcome. He made these statements a couple of years ago and has been saying this and teaching it in as a kinesiology professor in College a long time ago.
Right, his expertise is, Kinesiology, exercise physiology and Motor skill acquisition, OOOOOOh he did take pre-med classes that were not part of his curriculum. He learned this gobbledygook by graduating from that hell hole Michigan State Uni.
It is already known that ASMI does anecdotal research (Noly did it that way, so that’s why he throws so hard). Researching a mechanic that produces injurious affects will only give you injurious affects like the two Rice uni. Starting pitchers from a few years back that worked with ASMI. What’s that got to do with Running after pitching? Show us what they think about this subject, that’s all I did.
“1000+ pitchers tested in our biomechanics lab” all traditional
There sure is some nasty posters here, Kharma must have really worked you guys? Do you all really miss him that much to carry it over to any Marshall post. You may wan't to wake up, it's coming on slow but it's coming even with all the bad mouthing and false statements from non practitioners.
Even Fleisig at ASMI has invited Marshall over for discussion and mechanical evaluation.
Roger Tomas,
Joints need only blood flow warm up in their sport specific natural range of motion not stretching. Maybe everybody is to strong a word that Marshall used because lately some are getting it but the word and implementation is very hard for traditional thinkers to overcome. He made these statements a couple of years ago and has been saying this and teaching it in as a kinesiology professor in College a long time ago.
Yardbird you are rehashing Kharma's gobbledygook from 3 years ago and you guys have only gone one direction: backward. I have seen Marshall's videos and it appears that he thinks even his own students do it wrong. If you guys can't do it right after working year round for 3 years, then who can?
MTS,
“Yardbird you are rehashing Kharma's gobbledygook from 3 years ago”
Duh, are you the one that had him ejected from the game and banished to the parking lot?
I wish I could read his stuff I’ll bet it’s all well written and informative.
“and you guys have only gone one direction: backward”
My kids have all gone foreword and come close to what we want!
“I have seen Marshall's videos and it appears that he thinks even his own students do it wrong.”
Good observation. Those videos that you get the privilege to see are training videos.
“If you guys can't do it right after working year round for 3 years, then who can?”
Give him the best and lets see, are you afraid it may have merit?
Right now he only gets broke down traditionalists.
“Yardbird you are rehashing Kharma's gobbledygook from 3 years ago”
Duh, are you the one that had him ejected from the game and banished to the parking lot?
I wish I could read his stuff I’ll bet it’s all well written and informative.
“and you guys have only gone one direction: backward”
My kids have all gone foreword and come close to what we want!
“I have seen Marshall's videos and it appears that he thinks even his own students do it wrong.”
Good observation. Those videos that you get the privilege to see are training videos.
“If you guys can't do it right after working year round for 3 years, then who can?”
Give him the best and lets see, are you afraid it may have merit?
Right now he only gets broke down traditionalists.
Yardbird:
The problem I have with Dr Marshall is the same with Dick Mills and a few others where they essentially say: "all the previous body of work on pitching is BS and I know better follow me"
We'll if they did people would be beating down their doors. They are not so there must be a problem somewhere.
To your specific post:
You wrote 10 paragraph’s of gobbledygook and did not mention "running after pitching" until paragraph 10. I am still not clear on your opinion after reading through the post. You get off track in all kinds of other areas that have nothing to do with the subject. Your recommendation of light throwing after pitching seems to have some merit and it took 10 paragraphs to come up with a one line recommendation.
Second regarding your statement:
“ Right, his expertise is, Kinesiology, exercise physiology and Motor skill acquisition, OOOOOOh he did take pre-med classes that were not part of his curriculum. He learned this gobbledygook by graduating from that hell hole Michigan State Uni.”
OK he understands Kinesiology, so do many other “trainers”. This has nothing to do with the biological chemistry of the human body and what is going on inside it during athletic activity. So stop all of the **** about “Phosphagenic muscle fiber. Fast-Twitch Phosphagenic muscle fibers resynthesize Adenosine-Tri-Phosphate molecules with a coupled-biochemical reaction” and such. This is just a bunch of BS as far as I can tell and you have no basis or serious background to make such uninformed comments.
“It is already known that ASMI does anecdotal research (Noly did it that way, so that’s why he throws so hard). Researching a mechanic that produces injurious affects will only give you injurious affects like the two Rice uni. Starting pitchers from a few years back that worked with ASMI. What’s that got to do with Running after pitching? Show us what they think about this subject, that’s all I did.”
ASMI is one of the most respected medical groups within the baseball community. Is all of their work perfect, no, but it is transparent they are openly working in a scientific fashion. If you notice their position on Dr. Marshall is very respectful and I am sure they will take a look at what he is suggesting. They will do this in a serious scientific fashion I am sure.
Your throwing stones at them tells me a lot of the your level of intelligence and how serious I will take your recommendations.
The problem I have with Dr Marshall is the same with Dick Mills and a few others where they essentially say: "all the previous body of work on pitching is BS and I know better follow me"
We'll if they did people would be beating down their doors. They are not so there must be a problem somewhere.
To your specific post:
You wrote 10 paragraph’s of gobbledygook and did not mention "running after pitching" until paragraph 10. I am still not clear on your opinion after reading through the post. You get off track in all kinds of other areas that have nothing to do with the subject. Your recommendation of light throwing after pitching seems to have some merit and it took 10 paragraphs to come up with a one line recommendation.
Second regarding your statement:
“ Right, his expertise is, Kinesiology, exercise physiology and Motor skill acquisition, OOOOOOh he did take pre-med classes that were not part of his curriculum. He learned this gobbledygook by graduating from that hell hole Michigan State Uni.”
OK he understands Kinesiology, so do many other “trainers”. This has nothing to do with the biological chemistry of the human body and what is going on inside it during athletic activity. So stop all of the **** about “Phosphagenic muscle fiber. Fast-Twitch Phosphagenic muscle fibers resynthesize Adenosine-Tri-Phosphate molecules with a coupled-biochemical reaction” and such. This is just a bunch of BS as far as I can tell and you have no basis or serious background to make such uninformed comments.
“It is already known that ASMI does anecdotal research (Noly did it that way, so that’s why he throws so hard). Researching a mechanic that produces injurious affects will only give you injurious affects like the two Rice uni. Starting pitchers from a few years back that worked with ASMI. What’s that got to do with Running after pitching? Show us what they think about this subject, that’s all I did.”
ASMI is one of the most respected medical groups within the baseball community. Is all of their work perfect, no, but it is transparent they are openly working in a scientific fashion. If you notice their position on Dr. Marshall is very respectful and I am sure they will take a look at what he is suggesting. They will do this in a serious scientific fashion I am sure.
Your throwing stones at them tells me a lot of the your level of intelligence and how serious I will take your recommendations.
quote:Originally posted by Yardbird:
MTS,
“Yardbird you are rehashing Kharma's gobbledygook from 3 years ago”
Duh, are you the one that had him ejected from the game and banished to the parking lot?
I wish I could read his stuff I’ll bet it’s all well written and informative.
“and you guys have only gone one direction: backward”
My kids have all gone foreword and come close to what we want!
“I have seen Marshall's videos and it appears that he thinks even his own students do it wrong.”
Good observation. Those videos that you get the privilege to see are training videos.
“If you guys can't do it right after working year round for 3 years, then who can?”
Give him the best and lets see, are you afraid it may have merit?
Right now he only gets broke down traditionalists.
I was not the moderator. He got himself ejected from the site.
What your kids do is not success. Even kids with horrible mechanics that throw 45 mph can throw off young hitters. We used to start a kid who's fast ball couldn't rip a thin paper bag and throw him for 3-4 innings. We got a lot of soft grounders and backward K's. Then we'd bring in the cheddar. Made our heat look even faster after watching 40-45 mph for 3-4 innings. Success begins with varsity in the big high school divisions and then college, minor leages and then the major leagues. I asked Karma this question: how many pros are currently in the majors leagues using 100% of what Marshall teaches? When I asked the answer was zero. Three years later, I ask the question again: how many pitchers that use Marshalls mechanics are in the major leagues? Allow me to answer: Zero.
A privileged to watch those videos? Do you think I would want to pay for that garbage?
My son's high school pitching coach takes 5-6 weeks to tweak a pitchers mechanics not three years. And after 3 years you still have nothing with Marshall.
It seems like the thread has gotten away from "Bags" original question. To summarize:
SPD and others seem to believe that running after pitching is very advantageous, based on the work of the NPA and the Amer. Sports Medicine Inst.
Yardbird has another opinion, based on the work of Mike Marshall, that running does not necessarily have any positive impact ... but that it does not hurt.
You might consider the principle of Pascal's Wager -- Pascal reasoned that if he believed there is a God, and there is not, no loss; but if he assumes there is not, and there is ...
Since it can't hurt, and many believe the research that says it does help, why not go for a run, ride a bike, or hit the eliptical machine?
SPD and others seem to believe that running after pitching is very advantageous, based on the work of the NPA and the Amer. Sports Medicine Inst.
Yardbird has another opinion, based on the work of Mike Marshall, that running does not necessarily have any positive impact ... but that it does not hurt.
You might consider the principle of Pascal's Wager -- Pascal reasoned that if he believed there is a God, and there is not, no loss; but if he assumes there is not, and there is ...
Since it can't hurt, and many believe the research that says it does help, why not go for a run, ride a bike, or hit the eliptical machine?
You are correct Rugger thanks for putting us back on track.
My son's coaches have the pitchers run immediately after throwing. I see this as a great warm down because you have to use the arms when you run. As a coach I've seen pitcher's effectiveness diminish because of their legs getting tired.
My son's coaches have the pitchers run immediately after throwing. I see this as a great warm down because you have to use the arms when you run. As a coach I've seen pitcher's effectiveness diminish because of their legs getting tired.
BOF,
“The problem I have with Dr Marshall is the same with Dick Mills and a few others where they essentially say: "all the previous body of work on pitching is BS and I know better follow me"
What previous body of work, Marshall is the pioneer academic in this field. His tenants which are many all come with provenance starting with pronation. He just explains it all scientifically. What are Mills’s credentials? I’ve never heard Marshall utter those words.
“You wrote 10 paragraph’s of gobbledygook and did not mention "running after pitching"”
The scientific response was to straighten out false beliefs that Lactic acid is produced from short-term work interval ballistic athletic activity. This information is in every Exercise physiology text.
Icing came up as another post pitching remedy, so I added that scientific information. Again not necessary and painful but does not damage you, much better to lightly stimulate for blood flow.
Posters were mentioning stretching so I added the latest information.
“I am still not clear on your opinion”
Rather than jog for miles, warm down go carbo load (feed your face).
“OK he understands Kinesiology, so do many other “trainers”. This has nothing to do with the biological chemistry of the human body and what is going on inside it during athletic activity. This is just a bunch of BS as far as I can tell and you have no basis or serious background to make such uninformed comments.”
Apparently you are grossly uninformed as to the goings on in our University Athletic and Physical education departments or their curriculum. All of this information is included in both Kinesiology and Exercise physiology texts
”ASMI is one of the most respected medical groups within the baseball community. Is all of their work perfect, no, but it is transparent they are openly working in a scientific fashion. If you notice their position on Dr. Marshall is very respectful and I am sure they will take a look at what he is suggesting. They will do this in a serious scientific fashion I am sure.”
I, agree
”Your throwing stones at them tells me a lot of the your level of intelligence and how serious I will take your recommendations.”
We should learn from the truth! Not be hurt by it. My throwing stones at them only shows my distain for junk anecdotal science and has nothing to do with my average intelligence. You need only verify the information then take your own recommendations.
MTS,
“What your kids do is not success.”
OK Kreskin, I guess next your going to tell me who these non-successful kids are?
And what their velocities are?
I measure success by the smiles on their faces every time they accomplish another
Pronated pitch or report the good news from their previous games.
“majors leagues using 100% of what Marshall teaches? Pitchers that use Marshall’s mechanics are in the major leagues? “
Many MLB pitchers are using some of Marshall tenets, more and more every year!
Many are throwing pronated pitches; just look at all the Sinkers being thrown today compared to 3 years ago. The question is who’s going to have the BRASS to go full Marshall, Roger Clemens after being chased out of bean town (Arm going south) worked with a Marshall Certified coach before he arrived in Toronto and started pronating all of his pitches and getting his arm up to the right height. No more injuries. More of them are staying taller; more of them are not leg lifting so high. Why wouldn’t they?
A privileged to watch those videos? Do you think I would want to pay for that garbage?
No, so go watch it for free.
”My son's high school pitching coach takes 5-6 weeks to tweak a pitchers mechanics not three years.
He does not train them?
“And after 3 years you still have nothing with Marshall.”
I have nothing with Marshall? You must realize I get to work with healthy young arms
and some of them have “the right stuff” that Marshall refuses to train because he knows
they are not biologically old enough to withstand the stresses of ballistic athletic activity.
In the last three years my Marshall mechanic pitchers have set strike out records at all levels, one HS senior is playing in the OC all-star game coming up, many have entered
The College ranks, One JC kid (Orange coast) K’d 19 then 15 and set a record held since 1953. An 11 year old K, d 198 last year to go along with his 72 MPH fastball, this year he was taken out of LL to play with his biological age group, 13 year olds. There are many more like these. I call this a resounding success.
Rugger5,
How is it that you understood so easily?
I tend to go with Occam’s razor- after the entire minutia is considered that the best answer is the most obvious and simplest. Marshall has broken it down to that IMO.
“The problem I have with Dr Marshall is the same with Dick Mills and a few others where they essentially say: "all the previous body of work on pitching is BS and I know better follow me"
What previous body of work, Marshall is the pioneer academic in this field. His tenants which are many all come with provenance starting with pronation. He just explains it all scientifically. What are Mills’s credentials? I’ve never heard Marshall utter those words.
“You wrote 10 paragraph’s of gobbledygook and did not mention "running after pitching"”
The scientific response was to straighten out false beliefs that Lactic acid is produced from short-term work interval ballistic athletic activity. This information is in every Exercise physiology text.
Icing came up as another post pitching remedy, so I added that scientific information. Again not necessary and painful but does not damage you, much better to lightly stimulate for blood flow.
Posters were mentioning stretching so I added the latest information.
“I am still not clear on your opinion”
Rather than jog for miles, warm down go carbo load (feed your face).
“OK he understands Kinesiology, so do many other “trainers”. This has nothing to do with the biological chemistry of the human body and what is going on inside it during athletic activity. This is just a bunch of BS as far as I can tell and you have no basis or serious background to make such uninformed comments.”
Apparently you are grossly uninformed as to the goings on in our University Athletic and Physical education departments or their curriculum. All of this information is included in both Kinesiology and Exercise physiology texts
”ASMI is one of the most respected medical groups within the baseball community. Is all of their work perfect, no, but it is transparent they are openly working in a scientific fashion. If you notice their position on Dr. Marshall is very respectful and I am sure they will take a look at what he is suggesting. They will do this in a serious scientific fashion I am sure.”
I, agree
”Your throwing stones at them tells me a lot of the your level of intelligence and how serious I will take your recommendations.”
We should learn from the truth! Not be hurt by it. My throwing stones at them only shows my distain for junk anecdotal science and has nothing to do with my average intelligence. You need only verify the information then take your own recommendations.
MTS,
“What your kids do is not success.”
OK Kreskin, I guess next your going to tell me who these non-successful kids are?
And what their velocities are?
I measure success by the smiles on their faces every time they accomplish another
Pronated pitch or report the good news from their previous games.
“majors leagues using 100% of what Marshall teaches? Pitchers that use Marshall’s mechanics are in the major leagues? “
Many MLB pitchers are using some of Marshall tenets, more and more every year!
Many are throwing pronated pitches; just look at all the Sinkers being thrown today compared to 3 years ago. The question is who’s going to have the BRASS to go full Marshall, Roger Clemens after being chased out of bean town (Arm going south) worked with a Marshall Certified coach before he arrived in Toronto and started pronating all of his pitches and getting his arm up to the right height. No more injuries. More of them are staying taller; more of them are not leg lifting so high. Why wouldn’t they?
A privileged to watch those videos? Do you think I would want to pay for that garbage?
No, so go watch it for free.
”My son's high school pitching coach takes 5-6 weeks to tweak a pitchers mechanics not three years.
He does not train them?
“And after 3 years you still have nothing with Marshall.”
I have nothing with Marshall? You must realize I get to work with healthy young arms
and some of them have “the right stuff” that Marshall refuses to train because he knows
they are not biologically old enough to withstand the stresses of ballistic athletic activity.
In the last three years my Marshall mechanic pitchers have set strike out records at all levels, one HS senior is playing in the OC all-star game coming up, many have entered
The College ranks, One JC kid (Orange coast) K’d 19 then 15 and set a record held since 1953. An 11 year old K, d 198 last year to go along with his 72 MPH fastball, this year he was taken out of LL to play with his biological age group, 13 year olds. There are many more like these. I call this a resounding success.
Rugger5,
How is it that you understood so easily?
I tend to go with Occam’s razor- after the entire minutia is considered that the best answer is the most obvious and simplest. Marshall has broken it down to that IMO.
quote:Originally posted by BOF:
Yardbird:
The problem I have with Dr Marshall is the same with Dick Mills and ...
Oh my goodness.
That's a proverbial apple and orange comparison.
Let's peel the onion and see the layers of....the onion.
-Marshall turned 65 early this year.
-Mills turned 63 early in the year.
(This may be the closest attribute)
-Marshall attended Mich St U and obtained
a Ph.D. in kinesiology.
- Mills is street smart.
- Marshall lives in Florida.
- Mills lives in Arizona.
- Marshall is 5'10"
- Mills is 6'3".
- Marshall signed as an amateur free agent (in '60).
- Mills signed as a 3rd round draft pick (in '66).
- Marshall primarily pitched in the National League.
- Mills only pitched in the American League.
- Marshall has a working web site on pitching.
- Mills web site on pitching was very active.
- Marshall has very little hair left.
- Mills has much hair, and a fast receeding hair line (for the umpteeth time)
- What Mills says about Marshall. Never Met.
- What Marshall says about Mills: "has no idea what he is talking about" when it comes to pitching. And must worse, has frequently stated that he disagrees with Mills's methods of training, even going so far as to blame Mills specifically for the premature end of his son Ryan's seven year minor league career
-Marshall pitched 14 years in the bigs
with nine teams.
-Mills pitched less than a week in the bigs
and with one team.
-Marshall pitched RH.
-Mills pitched RH.
-Marshall is a Cy Young Award winner, an All-Star (2), led league in Games & Saves and several times.
-Mills finished 1 game.
-Marshall has stats similar to notables as Tug McGraw, Kent Tekulve, Stu Miller and others
-Mills stats are similar to.....?
- Marshall teaches and advocates a pitching method he developed that he "believes could completely eradicate pitching-arm injuries"
- Mills sells pitching products on eBay.
QED
There is really not much more to add to this than:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-572077907195969915
If anyone want's to follow either Mill's or Marshall's advice......good luck.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-572077907195969915
If anyone want's to follow either Mill's or Marshall's advice......good luck.
quote:Originally posted by Yardbird:
MTS,
“What your kids do is not success.”
OK Kreskin, I guess next your going to tell me who these non-successful kids are?
And what their velocities are?
I measure success by the smiles on their faces every time they accomplish another
Pronated pitch or report the good news from their previous games.
“majors leagues using 100% of what Marshall teaches? Pitchers that use Marshall’s mechanics are in the major leagues? “
Many MLB pitchers are using some of Marshall tenets, more and more every year!
Many are throwing pronated pitches; just look at all the Sinkers being thrown today compared to 3 years ago. The question is who’s going to have the BRASS to go full Marshall, Roger Clemens after being chased out of bean town (Arm going south) worked with a Marshall Certified coach before he arrived in Toronto and started pronating all of his pitches and getting his arm up to the right height. No more injuries. More of them are staying taller; more of them are not leg lifting so high. Why wouldn’t they?
A privileged to watch those videos? Do you think I would want to pay for that garbage?
No, so go watch it for free.
”My son's high school pitching coach takes 5-6 weeks to tweak a pitchers mechanics not three years.
He does not train them?
“And after 3 years you still have nothing with Marshall.”
I have nothing with Marshall? You must realize I get to work with healthy young arms
and some of them have “the right stuff” that Marshall refuses to train because he knows
they are not biologically old enough to withstand the stresses of ballistic athletic activity.
In the last three years my Marshall mechanic pitchers have set strike out records at all levels, one HS senior is playing in the OC all-star game coming up, many have entered
The College ranks, One JC kid (Orange coast) K’d 19 then 15 and set a record held since 1953. An 11 year old K, d 198 last year to go along with his 72 MPH fastball, this year he was taken out of LL to play with his biological age group, 13 year olds. There are many more like these. I call this a resounding success.
You are just like Kharma in that you hijack threads in the name of Marshall. You guys believe that even bad press is good press.
What kids do before high school on the small field doesn't matter. If Marshall doesn't approve, why is your 11 year old throwing competively and setting records? I don't like to call people liars, but when the shoe fits....
That is another thing that ****es me off. Marshall taking credit for traditional pitchers success and they don't even use his mechanics. Kharma tried pulling that lie too. Over 99 percent of the pitchers out there do not know or care about Marshall. Just look how many guys are in his camp. How many of you are there anyway? Isn't Marshall closing his camps soon?
BOF, rugger5,
”If anyone wants to follow either Mill's or Marshall's advice......good luck.”
Thanks, you know I’m going to need allot of that after reading some of these posts!
“There is really not much more to add to this”
Don’t stop now, just because somebody wanted to change the tread direction does not mean there aren’t more issues to hash out concerning running after pitching?
Like, I want my pitchers to build up even more waste products and toxins by actually running sprints and stops or do their work out if they did not pitch enough.
MTS,
“You are just like Kharma in that you hijack threads in the name of Marshall.”
How would I know, I cant even read his stuff! Is that why you had him voted out?
I hijack threads to prevent all throwing related injuries that it does.
I would suggest you not read my posts if they upset you so much!
“You guys believe that even bad press is good press.”
Who did you steal that off of? Are you accusing me of “Wagging the dog”?
”What kids do before high school on the small field doesn't matter.”
I’ll let the rest of the posters to answer that little statement!!!
Marshall earned a Doctorate with his Doctoral thesis proving that it does.
“If Marshall doesn't approve, why is your 11 year old throwing competively and setting records? “
Marshall DOES NOT approve! The kids are going to chuck the pill no matter what I do.
So I might as well give them the best chance for health.
“I don't like to call people liars, but when the shoe fits....”
Sounds like you need to tighten up your shoelaces.
“That is another thing that ****es me off.”
You need to calm down, your going to pop a vein.
“Marshall taking credit for traditional pitchers success and they don't even use his mechanics. Kharma tried pulling that lie too. Over 99 percent of the pitchers out there do not know or care about Marshall. Just look how many guys are in his camp."
Marshall has particular tenants, you can number them, they can be put in order of importance, you can take them or leave them, and you better believe that many College,professional and amateurs are aware and using these methods. Each thrower has some of them with out even knowing of Marshall’s material, he does take credit for calling them out scientifically for what they are and how they affect the ball and the body.
“How many of you are there anyway?”
As far as I know there is no Marshall camp tracking service?
Isn't Marshall closing his camps soon?”
His personal training services are coming to a close, he probably wants to spend more time with his lovely wife. His research continues and final culmination is what’s next.
Now lets get back to running after pitching, pretty please!
”If anyone wants to follow either Mill's or Marshall's advice......good luck.”
Thanks, you know I’m going to need allot of that after reading some of these posts!
“There is really not much more to add to this”
Don’t stop now, just because somebody wanted to change the tread direction does not mean there aren’t more issues to hash out concerning running after pitching?
Like, I want my pitchers to build up even more waste products and toxins by actually running sprints and stops or do their work out if they did not pitch enough.
MTS,
“You are just like Kharma in that you hijack threads in the name of Marshall.”
How would I know, I cant even read his stuff! Is that why you had him voted out?
I hijack threads to prevent all throwing related injuries that it does.
I would suggest you not read my posts if they upset you so much!
“You guys believe that even bad press is good press.”
Who did you steal that off of? Are you accusing me of “Wagging the dog”?
”What kids do before high school on the small field doesn't matter.”
I’ll let the rest of the posters to answer that little statement!!!
Marshall earned a Doctorate with his Doctoral thesis proving that it does.
“If Marshall doesn't approve, why is your 11 year old throwing competively and setting records? “
Marshall DOES NOT approve! The kids are going to chuck the pill no matter what I do.
So I might as well give them the best chance for health.
“I don't like to call people liars, but when the shoe fits....”
Sounds like you need to tighten up your shoelaces.
“That is another thing that ****es me off.”
You need to calm down, your going to pop a vein.
“Marshall taking credit for traditional pitchers success and they don't even use his mechanics. Kharma tried pulling that lie too. Over 99 percent of the pitchers out there do not know or care about Marshall. Just look how many guys are in his camp."
Marshall has particular tenants, you can number them, they can be put in order of importance, you can take them or leave them, and you better believe that many College,professional and amateurs are aware and using these methods. Each thrower has some of them with out even knowing of Marshall’s material, he does take credit for calling them out scientifically for what they are and how they affect the ball and the body.
“How many of you are there anyway?”
As far as I know there is no Marshall camp tracking service?
Isn't Marshall closing his camps soon?”
His personal training services are coming to a close, he probably wants to spend more time with his lovely wife. His research continues and final culmination is what’s next.
Now lets get back to running after pitching, pretty please!
quote:final culmination is what’s next.
--Uh-oh. It's the same story with all cults. When years of abject failure lead to "the final culmination" the only difference between them is in the sordid details of their exit strategies.
Yardbird, if Marshall asks you to drink a nice glass of Kool-aid at one of his 2-day coach certifications my advice is, "just say no"...and run away, fast.
If he lets you look through his backyard telescope and asks you if you see an alien spacecraft following in the wake of the Hale-Bopp comet...tell him, "ummm, sure, Mike, I see it" and then get the heck out of there, fast.
" Marshall has particular tenants"
Apparently Doctor Marshall is getting out of the baseball business to dabble in Real Estate and take care of his particular tenants
Apparently Doctor Marshall is getting out of the baseball business to dabble in Real Estate and take care of his particular tenants
quote:Originally posted by laflippin:quote:final culmination is what’s next.
--Uh-oh. It's the same story with all cults. When years of abject failure lead to "the final culmination" the only difference between them is in the sordid details of their exit strategies.
Yardbird, if Marshall asks you to drink a nice glass of Kool-aid at one of his 2-day coach certifications my advice is, "just say no"...and run away, fast.
If he lets you look through his backyard telescope and asks you if you see an alien spacecraft following in the wake of the Hale-Bopp comet...tell him, "ummm, sure, Mike, I see it" and then get the heck out of there, fast.
From Yardbirds posts I'd say he's already been drinking the Kool-Aid spiked with hallucinogens.
By the way, Yard, I am in no danger of popping a blood vein: because of my fitness I have substantially better than average blood pressure readings. I do have a problem with liars, which seems to be a common trait of guys that hang with Marshall.
The pitchers on my son's teams are not asked to sprint after pitching. They are asked to take a nice easy run as a warm down. If athletes are properly hydrated which our coaches seem to be keen on, your waste and toxins statement literally gets flushed down the urinal.
MTS,
It's not the hallucinogen-spiked Kool-aid I'm worried about...that must be pretty standard fare at Marshall's gatherings.
It's the "Jonestown punch" solution that concerns me. It is the only Kool-aid that is 100% guaranteed to provide "no pitching-related injuries" for the rest of eternity...
It's not the hallucinogen-spiked Kool-aid I'm worried about...that must be pretty standard fare at Marshall's gatherings.
It's the "Jonestown punch" solution that concerns me. It is the only Kool-aid that is 100% guaranteed to provide "no pitching-related injuries" for the rest of eternity...
Getting blood to an area, as long as there isn't significant swelling, promotes quicker healing. When you run after a game you tend to get blood flowing to the arm. Simple. No flushing toxins, no lactic acid stuff. Just more blood flow to the affected muscles and tendons.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
Getting blood to an area, as long as there isn't significant swelling, promotes quicker healing. When you run after a game you tend to get blood flowing to the arm. Simple. No flushing toxins, no lactic acid stuff. Just more blood flow to the affected muscles and tendons.
OH stop this logic stuff you twit. Can't you see we just want to argue about some nonsensical gibberish.
quote:Originally posted by BOF:
OH stop this logic stuff you twit. Can't you see we just want to argue about some nonsensical gibberish.
This is not an argument, it's a contradiction!
My apologies. I stand corrected. I will do my best to show remorse before the judge and jury. I also apologize to TR for apologizing.
To fully demonstrate my remorse I present the following:
Perhaps we should all send our kids back to Marshall to learn new methods to preclude making a team. Oops! I meant new methods to preclude injury. Oops again. Same difference.
To fully demonstrate my remorse I present the following:
Perhaps we should all send our kids back to Marshall to learn new methods to preclude making a team. Oops! I meant new methods to preclude injury. Oops again. Same difference.
