Scouting, the draft and PED's...troubling

infielddad,

I actually do have a little knowledge in that area.

Would be happy to give my opinion, but will have to do it later... Have to run for now.

IFD,
I read that article and find your points interesting.

I recently read about a player who was drafted a few years ago, very high, but teams were afraid of his "mental makeup" which now leaves me to beleive they had suspicions about him. Interestingly enough, the prospect has not done as well as suspected as others in his draft class.

I'd like to hear PG's thoughts on this as well.

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All I know is that cadKIDS are up at 3AM between once and three times a quarter, totally without warning, giving samples in a Dixie cup. Jocks and dweebs... makes no difference. Zero tolerance... hopefully zero problem. I think a male cheerleader got caught in 2003 for having something in his juice. Gone by lunchtime...

It needs to become societal... honor, that is...

cadDAD

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quote:

Originally posted by AcademyDad:
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All I know is that cadKIDS are up at 3AM between once and three times a quarter, totally without warning, giving samples in a Dixie cup. Jocks and dweebs... makes no difference. Zero tolerance... hopefully zero problem. I think a male cheerleader got caught in 2003 for having something in his juice. Gone by lunchtime...

It needs to become societal... honor, that is...

cadDAD

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They do that at your kids college too?

Honor?

Isn't that what this is really all about? Is it more honorable to be the highest paid, regardless of cost to your own health, image of the game, impact on your team? Or is it more honorable to achieve the most you can, by working hard and using what you are born with?

Where is the pride in finding the best chemical enhancers, stealing signs, shaving points? Maybe it is there, in the records set, the awards given, the prices paid for tickets, but, is it the same kind of pride that is derived from working hard, giving it the best with what you've got, and, looking back on your life, knowing that whatever you achieved was YOURS and not some chemical's? Aren't the records, games, careers, without the asterisk just a little more meaningful?

Why have talent when you can lip sync, digitally alter, cheat in any number of ways?

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with better living through chemicals, mixing and editing music and videos, stars and models having plastic surgery. For the most part for most things in my life, especially those that impact me, or my family directly, I would, however, like adequate labeling. If that apple is going to be genetically altered and treated with chemicals so that it is blemish free, redder, and bigger than it would have been if it were unaltered, just let me know. Does the alteration make it less beautiful, less tasty, fresh longer? I'm not sure it matters, as long as I know. What is valuable to you you may not be valuable to me. If I am selling my "organic" apples, I don't want to compete against your altered apples that you are marketing as "organic". They really are not the same product. Apples and Apples*

If professional sports really is just entertainment, that's fine. Let's just all agree on that. WWF is, in my mind, just entertainment. Granted, it is physically demanding, highly skilled entertainment, but entertainment, non the less. Should there be a warning that comes with all professional sports: "Do not try this at home..."?

But even entertainers are not exempt from the ravages of steroids or other drugs. Should we turn a blind eye because they are merely entertainers? Granted, Brittney, Amy Whinehouse, Paris, Sutherland, are just entertainers, but they are hurting themselves, driving cars under the influence, raising children.... Their behavior is not only self destructive, it takes its toll on society in general.

The day the Mitchell report was released, the local news in the DC metro area interviewed a high school senior baseball player from our community. It was pretty common knowledge that his brother had killed himself. What wasn't common knowledge was that the brother was taking steroids. In the interview, the baseball player attributed the death of his brother directly to the effects of steroids. Do you think that no one other than the one taking the steroids was hurt?

I don't think the Mitchell report was all that damaging to baseball. There may be a lot of discussion about the use of steroids, but it is also pulling back the curtain and showing us all what lies behind that image. It has provided great discussion points in our family about not equating professional success (in any walk of life) with ethics, fairness, moral value, or hard work. Success on the field does not necessarily equate with success of character. Failure of character does not necessarily diminish success on the field, so long as the failure of character is not brought unfairly into play on the field.

You can discuss legalities, criminal and civil, as long as you want. For me, and for our family, it is all about honor, honesty, and pride. For us, it is about how we define success, and our responsibility to ourselves and to those around us. These players may be existing in the rarified air of professional sports, but they do not live and play in a vacuum. Their actions have greater impact than what they personally experience. There is nothing wrong with holding them accountable for the consequences of their actions.

infielddad, Almost forgot that I said I’d reply to this. So here goes my 2 cents worth.

PEDs are always an issue in scouting. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard “He must be off the juice” when describing a player who has gone downhill. Not sure the approach to scouting would change without PEDs, it would just exclude that area a lot more. Players would be considered clean in most every case.

1.) PED's have been a factor in the evaluation of draft eligible players for many years.

This is true to a certain extent, but it is not fail proof. A scout can form opinions which may or may not end up true. I think this will become even more important in the future if stringent testing is done in professional baseball. Scouts are always looking for projection in players. A high school player on steroids would not be highly projectable.

2.) With the advent of testing in Milb, there has been an increased need to determine if PED use before the draft could be substantiated as impacting performance.

Absolutely important, I’m hoping they can somehow allow testing for all draft eligible players. It might be another step in the right direction.

3.) When PED's have been involved or suspected, the scouts have to project the player's skills when PED's may be minimized or removed by Milb drug testing.

Yes and this is impossible to predict.

4.) There isn't college or high school testing which eliminates PED's as a factor for consideration.

I’m not sure about this

5.) One must anticipate that just as the Dodgers have a scouting report on LoDuca, there are likely many scouting reports about players in past drafts that discuss PED's in similar ways.

Yes, for sure, but call me stupid, I don’t see very many of the top high school players that I would suspect as using steroids. Then again, when kids are young it’s hard to identify things as easily. At that age there exists such a large variance in physical maturity.

quote:

4.) There isn't college or high school testing which eliminates PED's as a factor for consideration.

New Jersey has random testing for high school athletes. Texas is implementing testing 3.3% of athletes. It will cost three million. It's very expensive to test. One of our local private school leagues considered 100% testing until they discovered the cost.

ESPN: high school drug testing

I wonder why MLB is not testing players when they make themselves draft eligable? They are not protected by any union! Why would MLB makes scouts guess whether are not a kid is juicing? I just don't understand. Anyone know????

TripleDad,

I'm guessing it is a very complicated procedure involved in this testing. It does seem that they would want to at least test those projected to go in the first few rounds because of the investment if nothing else.

Also, I'm not sure anyone has complete faith in the present testing methods. But anything would be better than doing nothing.

quote:

Also, I'm not sure anyone has complete faith in the present testing methods. But anything would be better than doing nothing.

I was reading this morning the problem is while a test to detect HGH is being developed, new drugs designed to get under the radar screen are being developed. The article said it would be easier to change the current PED culture in pro ball than detect all the new drugs.

Thats why I think all samples should be taken now and saved, then if new tests are developed for new peds the samples could be retested.

njbb. That is an interesting thought! That could really work. As a deterent I mean

That will never happen !!!

PG, I know PED's are common in High School with and without the assistance of adults. In our rural high school the kids know very well who's using and who's not. A friend of my son's picked up 15 pounds of muscle over a six week period when working out with the football team. After several raging mood swings his dad searched his room and found steroids. These kids were using stuff they knew nothing about. A yes their is the threat of testing in California and expulsion at our high school.

Our doctor (who trained world class body builders in 1970-1990) moved his practice from the Bay Area, told me and my son that well off parents of average sized high school freshman athletes at the powerhouse schools routinely visit certain doctors for "hormone therapy" becuse their kid clearly had a growth deffeciency. By their sophmore season they were 200 pound studs. Comprehensive solutions are needed all the way down to the high school level.

TR, why not? Players Union too Strong ? Or is Bud too weak ? Storing samples seems logical to me in rendering the "one step ahead" issue mute.

quote:

Comprehensive solutions are needed all the way down to the high school level.

DG,

That is very true and if anything an understatement! In fact, it might be even more important at that level.

That is why I don't understand why everyone is so worried about major league records and the hall-of-fame when we have a much more serious issue on our hand and it's not just baseball by a long ways. In fact, I kind of think in high school that other sports are even more likely to have this problem.

I'm really glad you said "comprehensive solutions" rather than comprehensive testing. Because testing doesn't seem to be the total answer, but just a small step in the right direction.

njbb,

I like your idea. At least it would cause a reason to think twice about one's baseball career. Unfortunately, it would do very little where the biggest problem (in my estimation) is. The one that DG mentions regarding the young kids.

quote:

well off parents of average sized high school freshman athletes at the powerhouse schools routinely visit certain doctors for "hormone therapy

Yep... it's happening... a lot....

While am certainly no expert on the subject, I realize that PED's have been around in various forms since at least the 1920's. Our government has fed them to our soldiers in times of war, the east germans have used them in the olympics since the 1930's, the agriculture industy puts them in the foods we eat, doctors prescribe them to patients as part of their rehabilitation and actors/actresses have designer "hormone replacement therapy" to maintain their young looks into older ages. Clearly their are some drugs that are beneficial and some that are dangerous. However, getting unbiased information is nearly impossible. Simply banning PEDs sounds like alcohol prohitition. People will find a way to obtain them and scientists will find a way around tests. I believe the FDA needs to become responsible for the Dietary Supplement industry and all other PEDS. They should be charged with providing guidelines that the average parent or highschool athlete can read and understand. They should certify some over the counter PEDs as safe, some PED's safe only under a physicians care and some as unsafe and illegal. Our government needs to catch up with modern science and provide the general public with answers and solutions. The athletic associations should not have to be the lead on this matter, they should only have to follow and implement established guidelines and laws of the FDA. If this takes comprehensive testing to implement, so be it. But I think progesseive outreach efforts to our at risk youth, such as the techniques used to curb teen pregnancy and reduce teen drug abuse, also need to be implemented with our teen athletes.

I know this is a bit off topic, but can kids have unnatural(high) levels of testosterone without drugs? There would have to be some in any sample that have much more than others IMO. If they were tested pre draft would these things show up? My son is large and has bad acne just like his Uncles and he gets teased about steroids. Just curious if something like this could happen if they start testing in HS in our area.

I can honestly see how this whole issue spirals out of control (and I will apologize in advance, for rambling). Ever since my son has been in 8th grade...it has been the baseball coaches telling him (and all his team mates) to "hit the weight room. You have to get stronger".

In talking with a college coach recently, I hear all about how the team has been in the weight room and getting stronger. He talked about how their hits are carrying further, etc. And we wonder how all this gets started?

Let's say a player is a people pleaser...and really wants to please his coach. He works out...gets big...gets HOOKED on getting big...gets praise from coach...who says..."keep working at it." One can EASILY see why player might be tempted to dabble in PED's. Who is to say CREATINE and AMINO ACIDS are not PED;s? The difference? They are LEGAL?

Let's take this a step further...a HS or college player sees the MLB guys getting FIFTEEN GAMES. They see the guys getting ripped. OK, they say, "Why not me? Perhaps I can get bigger, stronger, and faster...and my doubles turn to home runs. Heck, I may even get drafted...and I can STOP when I get the minors."

The player gets drafted, and finds out that he has to work even harder. Heck, he may even dabble a bit more...really start juicing...just for survival. He can now TASTE his dream of MLB...it's that close. HGH? Undetectable. Other drugs? You know there is a new "clear and cream" out there...that the drug police have no idea about? The cheaters will always be a step or two ahead.

My point...the TEMPTATION starts YOUNG...it starts with the COACHES. If we want to the totally "PC" about it...
...the coaches of male sports must now be as careful about body image comments to the male athletes as coaches of female athletes must be in body image comments that lead to disordered eating.

Reminds me of the "what scouts look for" jabber we all heard. They look for body types that are athletic and not artificially enhanced by the weight room(maxed-out).........OK, thats not true.

They say things like "room to grow".......LOL

People seem to forget that there are kids who were blessed and born with natural athleticism, above-average hand-eye coordination and twitch muscle groups.

What would cause a player to enhance themselves chemically is beyond me. Money? Ego? Whatever the reason, they have to live with themselves and their decisions and feel good about it.

Smoltzie was on the radio today. He said something along the lines of the general fan base can't look at a player and determine if his abilities are drug enhanced or natural, which is a sad thing not only for the fans, but for the players on the straight and narrow.

They were right when they claimed McGwire and Sosa saved baseball during their home run chase. Not for the interest it sparked in bringing baseball back to the forefront though, but for the comical caricatures they have become, complete with the POPEYE FOREARMS the juice helped develop.

I posted this story before, I think I will again.

At this point a number of years ago, when my oldest was a high school senior and doing the college recruiting thing, I became alarmed when one of the college coaches told him that in order to play at his school (now in the top 25), he had to "get bigger and stronger, gain 20 pounds of muscle" and then they can "talk". Let's see, 20 pounds of muscle when you are just turning 17 (he has a late birthday) is difficult---he ate very healthy foods and worked out like a fiend....difficult to do, gain the 20 pounds of muscle, without.....

Like I said, this alarmed me, so we crossed this school off of our list. My younger son was a sophomore and in health class. Because of our experience with the college coach, during parent-teacher conferences I met with the health teacher (who also coached football and wrestling) and I asked him if they (the coaches and school) ever talk to the athletes about the dangers of steroids. He said that they don't, nor do they tell them to NOT take them......

JT's post is excellent. A very believable scenario. Perfect. Praise is addictive. Girls love it, too, when they are told that they look great! How much weight have they lost? And then the 5 or 10 pounds turns into anorexia nervosa....with its own set of problems....

Like JT states, we need to be very careful how we praise the young impressionable people in our lives and what we suggest that they do....Because we never know just how a person will take it to heart....................

Doughnutman,

Testosterone levels vary considerably among adult men. Most of the literature suggest a greater than 3X variability. Of course, there is probably an even bigger variation among 14 year olds! So tests for testosterone don't depend on the absolute value. Instead the screening tests are done by comparing the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone. Epitestosterone is produced at the same time as testosterone, and usually in about the same amount. But when T is administered artificially, E is not increased, and the ratio of T/E goes up. Currently a T/E ratio of 4 or greater would trigger a more elaborate series of tests--in the WADA world. I don't know what MLB might consider a positive test. It is possible but neither cheap nor easy to discriminate between natural and artificial testosterone.

Anabolic steroids are different in that these are compounds which are not natural to humans, and so simply detecting a steroid molecule or its metabolites is generally sufficient to trigger a positive result. Of course the lab has to know what molecule to look for, and that is why the cream and the clear were so effective until someone sent a sample of them to UCLA. On the flip side, there has been a few instance of positive tests which were really due to contaminated supplements.

Lets not give anyone ideas here, 3fing, you should delete a part of your post, or else the entire post will prob get deleted

quote:

Originally posted by TripleDad:
Lets not give anyone ideas here, 3fing, you should delete a part of your post, or else the entire post will prob get deleted

Amazing how the drunken hot dog eating generation played the game, then again, you don't know whats in hot dogs?LOL

Let the "trainer" have his say. Better to understand it all, although his degree may be from Nutty Professor U.

quote:

Originally posted by JT:
I can honestly see how this whole issue spirals out of control (and I will apologize in advance, for rambling). Ever since my son has been in 8th grade...it has been the baseball coaches telling him (and all his team mates) to "hit the weight room. You have to get stronger".

In talking with a college coach recently, I hear all about how the team has been in the weight room and getting stronger. He talked about how their hits are carrying further, etc. And we wonder how all this gets started?

Let's say a player is a people pleaser...and really wants to please his coach. He works out...gets big...gets HOOKED on getting big...gets praise from coach...who says..."keep working at it." One can EASILY see why player might be tempted to dabble in PED's. Who is to say CREATINE and AMINO ACIDS are not PED;s? The difference? They are LEGAL?

Let's take this a step further...a HS or college player sees the MLB guys getting FIFTEEN GAMES. They see the guys getting ripped. OK, they say, "Why not me? Perhaps I can get bigger, stronger, and faster...and my doubles turn to home runs. Heck, I may even get drafted...and I can STOP when I get the minors."

The player gets drafted, and finds out that he has to work even harder. Heck, he may even dabble a bit more...really start juicing...just for survival. He can now TASTE his dream of MLB...it's that close. HGH? Undetectable. Other drugs? You know there is a new "clear and cream" out there...that the drug police have no idea about? The cheaters will always be a step or two ahead.

My point...the TEMPTATION starts YOUNG...it starts with the COACHES. If we want to the totally "PC" about it...
...the coaches of male sports must now be as careful about body image comments to the male athletes as coaches of female athletes must be in body image comments that lead to disordered eating.

JT,
Good points in your post. I mentioned something last week that, IMO, coaches should not tell young players that they need to get bigger stronger and got ripped by my friend TR. Your post illustrates my point. I appreciate your input. I can see how it can become dangerous if not approached in the proper way. We are blaming a lot of this on the players and MLB. But aren't we the ones (and coaches) who begin the thought process early?

My opinion, FWIW, is that young players should have a routine that focuses more on general wellness and general fitness than the concept of just getting "bigger".

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
My opinion, FWIW, is that young players should have a routine that focuses more on general wellness and general fitness than the concept of just getting "bigger".

At almost 50 years old, and having coached for about half of that, I have yet to hear of a coach who placed everyting on "just getting bigger".

This topic seems to have brought out some pretty extreme concepts...including not talking about things and becoming more educated for fear of giving someone "ideas". The motto shouldn't be "better compliance through more ignorance".

quote:

My point...the TEMPTATION starts YOUNG...it starts with the COACHES. If we want to the totally "PC" about it...
...the coaches of male sports must now be as careful about body image comments to the male athletes as coaches of female athletes must be in body image comments that lead to disordered eating.

I don't need the coach to do my job as a parent.

I dont think there is anything wrong with an athlete working hard to get bigger - faster and stronger.

Since when was that a bad thing?

Just dont break federal and state laws to accomplish that.

Its not really all that difficult - just eat well - work out hard and stay far away from drug dealing criminals.

RJM,

While I don't need a coach to do my job as a parent, I certainly wouldn't want one to undermine it either.

It seems that the point being made is that sometimes coaches, either directly, indirectly, or by purposeful omission, encourage the use of PEDs.

There is enormous pressure on young baseball players to put on muscle. I have no problem with the guys training and eating correctly, but these kids often train to the point of breaking themselves down and look for that something extra to help them recover quicker or get bigger quicker.

To the extent that a coach is not telling his players that PEDs are wrong, not permitted, harmful, he is not doing his job, forget about mine.

It doesn't have to be anything more than one pointed comment by a coach that pushes a player into harmful behavior. In my opinion, in that case, not only is he not doing his job, he is doing a disservice.

I am just not willing to accept that every parent of a player named didn't do their job as a parent just the same as I am not willing to accept that each of us who feel we did a great job can feel 100% confident this won't be an issue for one of ours someplace along the way.
When you read in the report that steroids and HGH are being distributed in clubhouses, that even team executives looked the other way when it happened, and combine that with guys who are playing with "passion," "living their dream," and supporting a family with a very good income, it is a recipe for some good players from good families, good parents and supportive upbringings "compromising."
I think the report is right when it places substantial responsibility on MLB, teams, executives and scouts who either looked other way or created an environment where players were "forced" to make these decisions to continue to play.
If MLB had told it's scouts that players suspected of drug use would not be drafted, that could have been a signficant deterrent.
If MLB and the Union had negotiated drug testing into the draft, that could have been a deterrent.
Instead, the entire process presented incentives to get bigger, get stronger, hit with power, etc and the looked the other way.
It now looks to place the blame on those confronted with the choices, not those who created the problem.
I think JT and P&C have it right. Vigilance, not confidence, coupled with hope and communication is the best you can do.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JT:
I can honestly see how this whole issue spirals out of control (and I will apologize in advance, for rambling). Ever since my son has been in 8th grade...it has been the baseball coaches telling him (and all his team mates) to "hit the weight room. You have to get stronger".

We must have it good here in never never land, our coaches encourage the kids to hit the ho ho's and get pudgy C'mon folks, wake up and smell the sweat. Nobody wants to see roids rule, our culture in totality has allowed this junk to go on. Many have blamed greed, I would suggest need plays just as big a part. My guess is that many of these "elite" athletes truly want to be the best they can, and are driven by that desire. Driven past the point of reason and good sense by the same burning desire that made them "elite" in the first place. (re: Bonds) Some surely were desperate to just attain that next level and the paycheck that came with it(most on Mitchells list), but we see that sort of behavior in every walk of life. For this "era" to have occured I believe the perfect storm of ego and availability were necessary. I'd even wager the internet helped make it all possible (sorry Al) It has been exposed, the ball is in the Union's court. Hopefully the exposure will force their hand and they will do the right thing. For what possible reason would MLB want this mess to have developed ? IMO it is bad for business.

quote:

Originally posted by P&CMom:
but these kids often train to the point of breaking themselves down and look for that something extra to help them recover quicker or get bigger quicker.

Please define, "often". I haven't seen it once.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
I am just not willing to accept that every parent of a player named didn't do their job as a parent just the same as I am not willing to accept that each of us who feel we did a great job can feel 100% confident this won't be an issue for one of ours someplace along the way.

There is a big difference between doing your job as a parent when your child is a teenager, and the decisions your children make as adults.


Some huge numbers being bantied about here, along with terms like, "epidemic", "leaves me no choice to beleive", "million kids", "often", etc.

Granted, the subject is explosive, and the rhetoric passionate, but do we really need to grossly overstate to understand its importance?

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I'd go one step futher...

While this in no way minimizes or exonerates the steroid abuse....

But I suggest that drug use to solve issues has become in great part endemic to our culture. I'd submit that this is in great part a bigger issue, a society wide issue...Got a problem? Take a PIll. We got pills for everything. Forget about Diet and exercise, and de-stressing our lives...just take a pill

Just watch the national evening news. News...Drug ad...News...Drug Ad...News...Drug Ad...

We have been convinced that pills are the answer for everything that ails us...(Restless legs?..Take a Pill. Can't sleep?...Take a pill. Stomach trouble?...Take a Pill)) And that is what we are teaching our children...and they are nothing if not observant.

44
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quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:

quote:

Originally posted by P&CMom:
but these kids often train to the point of breaking themselves down and look for that something extra to help them recover quicker or get bigger quicker.

Please define, "often". I haven't seen it once.


Granted, the subject is explosive, and the rhetoric passionate, but do we really need to grossly overstate to understand its importance?

Having talked with our son, our son's strength and conditioning coaches, many of our son's college and minor league teammates/parents about off season workouts, and their strength and conditioning programs, yours is the first to suggest you haven't "ever" seen a player get broken down through that type of training and effort.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:

quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:

quote:

Originally posted by P&CMom:
but these kids often train to the point of breaking themselves down and look for that something extra to help them recover quicker or get bigger quicker.

Please define, "often". I haven't seen it once.


Granted, the subject is explosive, and the rhetoric passionate, but do we really need to grossly overstate to understand its importance?

Having talked with our son, our son's strength and conditioning coaches, many of our son's college and minor league teammates/parents about off season workouts, and their strength and conditioning programs, yours is the first to suggest you haven't "ever" seen a player get broken down through that type of training and effort.

I agree with P&Cmom and IFD.

I'm wondering how many of the 95+ high school pitchers who's velocity dropped off 5+ MPH after they signed, were merely science experiments. I'm guessing more than a few.

Thankfully, my son has never taken PED's, although he certainly could have been tempted to by the comments he has received over the past couple of years. Here's a sampling from emails written by coaches at 3 D1's:

"ben just needs to get bigger and stronger / more physical"

"As for things to improve, I would just say you need to continue to get stronger."

"needs to get stronger physically.... just needs to get more physical"