One thing Coach May touched on but perhaps was too kind to drive home:
There has been a deliberate decision among youth rec ball leagues, Williamsport in particular, to "dumb down" their baseball. When I was young, if you could play you played, maybe even got moved up an age group. If you couldn't play, you got cut to a lower age group, maybe even got cut completely out of the program. Today no one would hear of such a thing. We put the kid who can't catch on the field where the best hitter can whiz line shots right past his earlobes. Instruction in the game, which by the way is incomplete without instilling a drive to succeed, a dedication to practice and improvement, and a devotion to team above self, has been cast aside in favor of indulging the "everyone gets a trophy" attitude.
The kid who can really play SS gets tired of having to remember, on a bang-bang play, whether he can fire the ball to his 2B, or whether doing that might get some poor hapless kid smacked in the face with the ball.
Rec leagues have adopted the attitude that they will serve the lowest common denominator. Well, there's a lot to be said for that. It lets everyone have a shot at wearing a uniform and playing a game we all love.
But rec leagues are simply not serving the athletic kid, the kid born with drive to succeed. They truly aren't even trying to. Heck, Little League's response to falling enrollments was to put OLDER kids on the 60'x60' field. (Moved the aging date back 3 months a few years ago.) They are making it easier for kids to play by giving older boys -- many of whom are well into puberty growth spurts now -- shorter distances to contend with.
To me, travel ball is the result of two things. First, it's no coincidence that it grew to full flower during a period when the country's economy was undergoing a huge expansion. Folks had money and spent it like never before. But during that same time, rec leagues abandoned the better players, and pretty much left them to fend for themselves. So they did.
All that feeds into teenagers who find it only natural to give up Legion opportunities to hit the road in search of tougher and tougher challenges -- and better opportunities to be scouted as well.
I will probably get blasted for this. But its not just baseball that serves the lowest common denominator.Its a trend in society in general.
today isn't yesterday. when my kids were in LL i wanted the team/them to be the best they could be, today. no thoughts about hs,college ball, just do it today,have fun and learn today.
that said,all these rec programs, LL ,cal ripken,babe ruth. revolve around all stars. we have to get the season over by this date for all stars.all summer long 15 kids play LL while the ones that should be playing are all done. that never made sence to me.
we went to showcases that invited us, they were free or next to nothing. i have alway's felt not enough was/is being done for the players not in the upper class.
i do think that travel ball has watered down talent wise. it doesn't take much to start one, but ton's of effort to do it right.
i'm wondering what all the websites have done for baseball. list's of the top 100 pitchers, 2nd baseman etc. everyone wants to be top's at what they do, but if you haven't seen everyone.........how can they be the top 100?
youth baseball has evolved into a big money maker, all youth sports for that matter. has it made things better? i think it has.
do kids play travel because they are good? or are the good because they play travel?
that said,all these rec programs, LL ,cal ripken,babe ruth. revolve around all stars. we have to get the season over by this date for all stars.all summer long 15 kids play LL while the ones that should be playing are all done. that never made sence to me.
we went to showcases that invited us, they were free or next to nothing. i have alway's felt not enough was/is being done for the players not in the upper class.
i do think that travel ball has watered down talent wise. it doesn't take much to start one, but ton's of effort to do it right.
i'm wondering what all the websites have done for baseball. list's of the top 100 pitchers, 2nd baseman etc. everyone wants to be top's at what they do, but if you haven't seen everyone.........how can they be the top 100?
youth baseball has evolved into a big money maker, all youth sports for that matter. has it made things better? i think it has.
do kids play travel because they are good? or are the good because they play travel?
Rec ball and travel ball can and should co-exist.
Comparing them is apples and oranges IMO.
Like 20Dad said rec ball for the better players is really about allstar season. Regular season is for the kids who like baseball but don't have the abilities to play all stars. The highlight of their season is getting an important hit, making the playoffs and winning the league championship. Their was nothing more gratifing for me than to see a below average kid, who tried hard, to get that key hit or make a nice play in the field and then walk off the fiels smiling ear to ear. That kid may like the game as much as the best all star or travel kid, but just doesn't have the talent.
The better player should, at some point, go to travel ball. In our area it seems to break down this way. In larger towns the kids started with rec and usually stayed to at least 12yo. With the larger towns you have a better pool of talent so there was some competition amongst the all star players and the overall quality was exceptable until 12. In the smaller towns the kids seem to go to travel by 9 -10 yo because the talent just wasn't there. I think alot of the travel teams started, in my area, 5-10 years ago were by dads in smaller towns. This makes sense to me.
We all better hope rec/town baseball doesn't go away. IMO if it does so do alot of future MLB fans who ultimately pay the huge salaries some of us are chasing.
Comparing them is apples and oranges IMO.
Like 20Dad said rec ball for the better players is really about allstar season. Regular season is for the kids who like baseball but don't have the abilities to play all stars. The highlight of their season is getting an important hit, making the playoffs and winning the league championship. Their was nothing more gratifing for me than to see a below average kid, who tried hard, to get that key hit or make a nice play in the field and then walk off the fiels smiling ear to ear. That kid may like the game as much as the best all star or travel kid, but just doesn't have the talent.
The better player should, at some point, go to travel ball. In our area it seems to break down this way. In larger towns the kids started with rec and usually stayed to at least 12yo. With the larger towns you have a better pool of talent so there was some competition amongst the all star players and the overall quality was exceptable until 12. In the smaller towns the kids seem to go to travel by 9 -10 yo because the talent just wasn't there. I think alot of the travel teams started, in my area, 5-10 years ago were by dads in smaller towns. This makes sense to me.
We all better hope rec/town baseball doesn't go away. IMO if it does so do alot of future MLB fans who ultimately pay the huge salaries some of us are chasing.
quote:Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
One thing Coach May touched on but perhaps was too kind to drive home:
There has been a deliberate decision among youth rec ball leagues, Williamsport in particular, to "dumb down" their baseball. When I was young, if you could play you played, maybe even got moved up an age group. If you couldn't play, you got cut to a lower age group, maybe even got cut completely out of the program. Today no one would hear of such a thing. We put the kid who can't catch on the field where the best hitter can whiz line shots right past his earlobes. Instruction in the game, which by the way is incomplete without instilling a drive to succeed, a dedication to practice and improvement, and a devotion to team above self, has been cast aside in favor of indulging the "everyone gets a trophy" attitude.
The kid who can really play SS gets tired of having to remember, on a bang-bang play, whether he can fire the ball to his 2B, or whether doing that might get some poor hapless kid smacked in the face with the ball.
Rec leagues have adopted the attitude that they will serve the lowest common denominator.
Midlo Dad...precisely my point in the comparison to public education...and said much better than I said in my post. You hit the nail on the head in the dumbing down many wRECk leagues and catering to the LCD.
Midlo Dad,
Their are tryouts and cuts for rec all stars. Kids do strive to make those teams. As recent as 4 years ago in my town there was competiton and excitement to make the all stars. Maybe things have changed since then.
I really don't get the issue with having a rec league where kids who don't have a lot of talent, but love baseball, can play and have fun. Again these are the people who are going to fill the stands and maybe even be the GMs in MLB who trade the elite travel players of today.
Their are tryouts and cuts for rec all stars. Kids do strive to make those teams. As recent as 4 years ago in my town there was competiton and excitement to make the all stars. Maybe things have changed since then.
I really don't get the issue with having a rec league where kids who don't have a lot of talent, but love baseball, can play and have fun. Again these are the people who are going to fill the stands and maybe even be the GMs in MLB who trade the elite travel players of today.
It kills me when I hear someone say "We just can not afford to do it its just too expensive." Yeah but that Lexus sure is nice. And that ATV sure is nice. How was your vacation at the coast? And man that sure is a nice car you just bought your son. Wow those rims are killer dude. Nice stero system Jimmy! Yeah its just too expensive when its really not that important.
Good points Coach May. It's really easy to say all that when you don't have to pay for anything though. I'm not saying that to be critical, but the reality is, it is tough for some of us. It wasn't always for us and I felt the same as you did. Now that I am walking in the broke man's shoes, I see differently. My son does not have an ATV,I don't have a Lexus, He doesn't have a car, we didn't take a vacation. We're barely making it right now, but still I pour money into baseball because I see it as an investment in my son's future. It kills me that my whole family is doing with less because of baseball and what it cost to stay competive.
My son cut grass during the summer to pay his way to every PG event he ever went to. He weed eated and put up hay for the neighbors. I have not cut the grass in years. No you want it find a way to make it happen. I tell all my players if you want to go call me. You want to go to a showcase and Pops wont foot the bill what are you doing to pay for it? You can get those CD's right? You can take that sweety on that date right? You can pay for that prom right? No , cut the BS son you dont want it bad enough.
My son put out fliers for cutting grass in our neighborhood, no takers. He doesn't have a car so he can't travel to other subdivisions. He has a girlfriend but he can't afford to take her out, they go to church together and she goes to his games.
Some scrape and scrape but there are circumstances that make it nearly impossible and I just feel it shouldn't be that way.
I'm too proud to ask for handouts, so we struggle on.
Good points Coach May. It's really easy to say all that when you don't have to pay for anything though. I'm not saying that to be critical, but the reality is, it is tough for some of us. It wasn't always for us and I felt the same as you did. Now that I am walking in the broke man's shoes, I see differently. My son does not have an ATV,I don't have a Lexus, He doesn't have a car, we didn't take a vacation. We're barely making it right now, but still I pour money into baseball because I see it as an investment in my son's future. It kills me that my whole family is doing with less because of baseball and what it cost to stay competive.
My son cut grass during the summer to pay his way to every PG event he ever went to. He weed eated and put up hay for the neighbors. I have not cut the grass in years. No you want it find a way to make it happen. I tell all my players if you want to go call me. You want to go to a showcase and Pops wont foot the bill what are you doing to pay for it? You can get those CD's right? You can take that sweety on that date right? You can pay for that prom right? No , cut the BS son you dont want it bad enough.
My son put out fliers for cutting grass in our neighborhood, no takers. He doesn't have a car so he can't travel to other subdivisions. He has a girlfriend but he can't afford to take her out, they go to church together and she goes to his games.
Some scrape and scrape but there are circumstances that make it nearly impossible and I just feel it shouldn't be that way.
I'm too proud to ask for handouts, so we struggle on.
Great post guys. It amazes me that some of you who are so adamant for travel ball here and letting the best succeed have bashed me and others for wanting that for our kids.
On a thread about high school possibly being replaced by showcases you said they should stay high school rather than travel during spring if it ever became available. I apologize to some but the level of high school in our area is not much above rec ball compared to travel ball.
On another thread about 8U travel ball. You bashed us for wanting what is best for our kids, playing with kids of equal level, pitching, etc.
I don't see how you can have it both ways. Why all of the sudden today is it the best for travel and in the past some of you same ones have bashed these statements that you have just made.
Travel ball is better baseball but not for everyone. But it is best for some 8U players. Why does it become okay as you have said to cut players from all-stars and not cut players who are not good enough to play travel.
As Coach May said, go ahead and bash it won't be the first time and it won't be the last. Just be careful that you don't contradict yourselves.
On a thread about high school possibly being replaced by showcases you said they should stay high school rather than travel during spring if it ever became available. I apologize to some but the level of high school in our area is not much above rec ball compared to travel ball.
On another thread about 8U travel ball. You bashed us for wanting what is best for our kids, playing with kids of equal level, pitching, etc.
I don't see how you can have it both ways. Why all of the sudden today is it the best for travel and in the past some of you same ones have bashed these statements that you have just made.
Travel ball is better baseball but not for everyone. But it is best for some 8U players. Why does it become okay as you have said to cut players from all-stars and not cut players who are not good enough to play travel.
As Coach May said, go ahead and bash it won't be the first time and it won't be the last. Just be careful that you don't contradict yourselves.
Julie is that the same twins that just left Toronto this AM ? 
I think competing is what it is all about regardless of where you come from ?
I think competing is what it is all about regardless of where you come from ?
I don’t now, nor have I ever been critical of anyone seeking out a higher competitive skill level for their child, but I don’t particularly care for what amounts to nothing less than bashing rec teams or leagues because they continue to make the game available to every single child who wants to try to play the game.
Just like Coach May and many others, I got pretty tired of the parents who didn’t care and the kids who had no enthusiasm. But what is the point of a recreational organization? Look at the purpose of any of the major rec organizations in this country and tell me where it says dinky doo about their purpose being to create ball players. You won’t because their purpose is simply to afford as many children the opportunity to play the game as possible.
If you or your child wants more than what the program offers, by all means pack your bags and leave. But don’t berate the organization that gave your child their 1st opportunity to play organized ball, even though it may not meet your standards!
Please tell me another baseball venue where every child is welcomed and guaranteed to play regardless of just about anything? Heck, ya’ll make it sound as though LL Inc is a stupid and rotten organization because they waste so much time and energy on their Challenger division! After all, why bother to even let those kids on a field since they obviously can’t play with the big boys.
Ya know, I wouldn’t really care about this topic if someone could just explain to me how kids who don’t develop into decent players until they’re say 12YO would ever get that chance if it weren’t for rec leagues. I’d think for the vitality of the game, everyone would want to keep as many players playing as long as possible to give them every opportunity to bloom, but instead it seems like most people want to force out players as early as possible.
Just like Coach May and many others, I got pretty tired of the parents who didn’t care and the kids who had no enthusiasm. But what is the point of a recreational organization? Look at the purpose of any of the major rec organizations in this country and tell me where it says dinky doo about their purpose being to create ball players. You won’t because their purpose is simply to afford as many children the opportunity to play the game as possible.
If you or your child wants more than what the program offers, by all means pack your bags and leave. But don’t berate the organization that gave your child their 1st opportunity to play organized ball, even though it may not meet your standards!
Please tell me another baseball venue where every child is welcomed and guaranteed to play regardless of just about anything? Heck, ya’ll make it sound as though LL Inc is a stupid and rotten organization because they waste so much time and energy on their Challenger division! After all, why bother to even let those kids on a field since they obviously can’t play with the big boys.
Ya know, I wouldn’t really care about this topic if someone could just explain to me how kids who don’t develop into decent players until they’re say 12YO would ever get that chance if it weren’t for rec leagues. I’d think for the vitality of the game, everyone would want to keep as many players playing as long as possible to give them every opportunity to bloom, but instead it seems like most people want to force out players as early as possible.
Not sure who gave you that impression ? I don't recall getting that from anyone without rereading the whole thread.
There is a place for each level of play but there is a demand for higher level of BB otherwise Elite teams wouldn't have evolved. I know some very talented guys who preferred to play just for fun. They didn'y want the travel and pressures of elite ball. Many are still playing JR or SR rec ball.
In our local organization you had the option of playing rec ball and could tick off that you wanted to tryout for the travel team. We tried out and to me it was just more BB for my son. He had never played hard ball before. He was carded wich meant he could be called up if needed. He played rec ball and made a lot of friends. After a few weeks he was asked to join the travel team as his skills improved over night. He agreed to go up only if he could finish his season with his rec team. To me that showed real character. The travel team had pin striped uniforma that were Yankee knockoffs and I know he really wanted to play AAA travel ball.
I certainly never bashed Rec and often give credit to the Ontario Baseball Assoc for his oportunities. I also reconize that Elite BB gave him a huge step forward to prove to himself what he could do against top teams in US and Canada.
There is a place for each level of play but there is a demand for higher level of BB otherwise Elite teams wouldn't have evolved. I know some very talented guys who preferred to play just for fun. They didn'y want the travel and pressures of elite ball. Many are still playing JR or SR rec ball.
In our local organization you had the option of playing rec ball and could tick off that you wanted to tryout for the travel team. We tried out and to me it was just more BB for my son. He had never played hard ball before. He was carded wich meant he could be called up if needed. He played rec ball and made a lot of friends. After a few weeks he was asked to join the travel team as his skills improved over night. He agreed to go up only if he could finish his season with his rec team. To me that showed real character. The travel team had pin striped uniforma that were Yankee knockoffs and I know he really wanted to play AAA travel ball.
I certainly never bashed Rec and often give credit to the Ontario Baseball Assoc for his oportunities. I also reconize that Elite BB gave him a huge step forward to prove to himself what he could do against top teams in US and Canada.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Not sure who gave you that impression ? I don't recall getting that from anyone without rereading the whole thread.
There is a place for each level of play but there is a demand for higher level of BB otherwise Elite teams wouldn't have evolved. I know some very talented guys who preferred to play just for fun. They didn'y want the travel and pressures of elite ball. Many are still playing JR or SR rec ball.
In our local organization you had the option of playing rec ball and could tick off that you wanted to tryout for the travel team. We tried out and to me it was just more BB for my son. He had never played hard ball before. He was carded wich meant he could be called up if needed. He played rec ball and made a lot of friends. After a few weeks he was asked to join the travel team as his skills improved over night. He agreed to go up only if he could finish his season with his rec team. To me that showed real character. The travel team had pin striped uniforma that were Yankee knockoffs and I know he really wanted to play AAA travel ball.
I certainly never bashed Rec and often give credit to the Ontario Baseball Assoc for his oportunities. I also reconize that Elite BB gave him a huge step forward to prove to himself what he could do against top teams in US and Canada.
I purposely didn’t mention anyone’s name in conjunction with the bashing remark because I didn’t want to have anyone get the idea it was personally directed toward them. It was a general statement, and I stand by it. Maybe it goes back to me being brought up with the philosophy, If you can’t say something nice about someone, in this case rec ball, don’t say anything.
I don’t particularly care what happened to someone in their league because the issue to me is much larger than that. If you had a good experience or bad, it had very little to do with the concept of rec ball. The experiences are local, the concept is world wide.
Your last paragraph is one that more people would do well to emulate. Praise the higher level experience all you want, especially if you believe it was beneficial, but don’t forget where every ball player I ever heard of got his start.
Jeff you can pull all my posts up on that other thread and you will see that I never contradicted myself. What I said repeatedly was HS baseball is played in the spring. Its the exact time that college coaches are playing. Who are these showcase players playing in the spring going to play? What fields are they going to play on? When you have the option of playing showcase baseball in the summer and fall when everyone else is playing it why would you skip HS baseball? I never knocked showcase baseball in my posts. What I repeatedly said was both have their place. For some reason you want to continue to argue with me. I coach in one of the top showcase programs in the nation. It has its place. Just like HS baseball has its place. HS baseball around here is not rec ball.
As far as it being easy for me to say because I dont pay anything. I dont pay anything when I am coaching a team. I did not coach my sons showcase teams. We paid like everyone else. I coached the older guys and now I coach the younger guys. Of course there are going to be people that struggle to make it happen. If it was easy everyone would do it. I can only speak from my experiences and that is what I did in that post. You are free to post from your experiences.
Everyones opinion is based on their own personal experiences. So naturally they are going to be different and in some cases alike. My experiences are not limited to my child. They are based on hundreds of baseball players over many years. I respect everyones opinion I truly do.
As far as it being easy for me to say because I dont pay anything. I dont pay anything when I am coaching a team. I did not coach my sons showcase teams. We paid like everyone else. I coached the older guys and now I coach the younger guys. Of course there are going to be people that struggle to make it happen. If it was easy everyone would do it. I can only speak from my experiences and that is what I did in that post. You are free to post from your experiences.
Everyones opinion is based on their own personal experiences. So naturally they are going to be different and in some cases alike. My experiences are not limited to my child. They are based on hundreds of baseball players over many years. I respect everyones opinion I truly do.
skeep
rec ball is a the very most important part of baseball,and your community.
i never understood why an 8 or 9 year old had to play travel ball. if it was to play more games,play them with the rec team, make everyone better.
which brings me to my only gripe with the LL and babe ruth is the all stars. instead of spending the money and resources for the few all stars that make it there. all the kids should keep playing,the ones that would benifit the most from the longer season aren't playing.
not everyone gets to play in college,or the pro's. but if a kid wants to play baseball, then byjimminy he should have a place. i believe that.
rec ball is a the very most important part of baseball,and your community.
i never understood why an 8 or 9 year old had to play travel ball. if it was to play more games,play them with the rec team, make everyone better.
which brings me to my only gripe with the LL and babe ruth is the all stars. instead of spending the money and resources for the few all stars that make it there. all the kids should keep playing,the ones that would benifit the most from the longer season aren't playing.
not everyone gets to play in college,or the pro's. but if a kid wants to play baseball, then byjimminy he should have a place. i believe that.
quote:Originally posted by 20dad:
which brings me to my only gripe with the LL and babe ruth is the all stars. instead of spending the money and resources for the few all stars that make it there. all the kids should keep playing,the ones that would benifit the most from the longer season aren't playing.
Now that’s what I consider a legitimate beef!
Unfortunately, as we all know, the AS’s are being exploited to provide $$$$$ for the organization to continue without raising fees. Its what I’d call a Catch-22.
quote:not everyone gets to play in college,or the pro's. but if a kid wants to play baseball, then byjimminy he should have a place. i believe that.
Its just that simple. Just because a kid doesn’t have the same abilities or passion to play as another kid, there’s no reason to deprive him/her of the opportunity to play. I truly do believe its important to the vitality of the game to get as much “new blood” as possible into it, and that means keeping as many players as possible, playing for as long as possible.
20Dad I don't think that playing rec ball makes you better. For a young player who wants to play travel ball where most players are the best in their area and age group is a normal aspiration.
These various levels allow players who aspire to be better achieve their goals. I don't want this to be taken to be knocking rec ball but it is not comparab;e to travel ball. There were players of very poor skill levels in rec ball and that serves them well. It gives them an opportunity to play BB and if they develop both a desire and a skill level they can advance to the next level. Why would you hold back a kid who wants to play travel ball or make a kid compete for a rec team that was ladden with top talent guys who over shadowed them tp the point of embarrasment in some cases. That would then make them not want to play. I worked with kids who couldn't catch a ball who had the opportunity to play. I could tell stories for hours about rec ball and politics in BB. Our rec teams served a purpose but it was a diservice to have extremely talented guys playing with kids who were just learning as it was to force a kid to play down. I am sure that there are areas that rec ball may be better than what I saw but when my son played rookie rec ball there were 11 teams. That is 150 kids at 9 years old . I like you believe it is an important level in the development of players but the travel teams are goals to aspire to.
I don't ever remember our rec teams being deprived of resourses. They paid $90.00 to play in a well organized league and the All Stars paid about $300. more.
These various levels allow players who aspire to be better achieve their goals. I don't want this to be taken to be knocking rec ball but it is not comparab;e to travel ball. There were players of very poor skill levels in rec ball and that serves them well. It gives them an opportunity to play BB and if they develop both a desire and a skill level they can advance to the next level. Why would you hold back a kid who wants to play travel ball or make a kid compete for a rec team that was ladden with top talent guys who over shadowed them tp the point of embarrasment in some cases. That would then make them not want to play. I worked with kids who couldn't catch a ball who had the opportunity to play. I could tell stories for hours about rec ball and politics in BB. Our rec teams served a purpose but it was a diservice to have extremely talented guys playing with kids who were just learning as it was to force a kid to play down. I am sure that there are areas that rec ball may be better than what I saw but when my son played rookie rec ball there were 11 teams. That is 150 kids at 9 years old . I like you believe it is an important level in the development of players but the travel teams are goals to aspire to.
I don't ever remember our rec teams being deprived of resourses. They paid $90.00 to play in a well organized league and the All Stars paid about $300. more.
When I think back our rec league was very well supported and even put ahead of the All Star. They had open and closing tournaments and skill camps. The players were given every opportunity to develop. Several times Blue Jay players came to over see the skill camps. I though they did some very clever and innovative things to get players motivated. They even had a draft where the coaches got to draft their team. They went to a sports bar and had a great time selecting players.
If a talented player was held back it could do more harm to that player than good.
If a talented player was held back it could do more harm to that player than good.
This is the definition of recreation
If you look at the instruction book that comes with being a citizen of America it reads -
But the problem is they stop reading there and don't realize it continues to say
Not every kid is cut out to go as far as they can in baseball. Some kids just want to show up and throw a ball and hit a ball and field a ball. I don't have a problem with that. I think these kids should have that opportunity but the kids who want to go farther should have their own opportunity.
Rec ball should be for the kids who want to show up and have a good time. Elite, travel, high school, college should be for the kids who want to strive farther in the game (or any sport for that matter).
But here are the problems - we are letting the soft hearts rip out our natural born desire to strive for the best. These people want to homogenize everything so nobody ends up feeling left out or feelings hurt. They think it's terrible to see Little Johnny standing there not getting a trophy and he is close to tears. So instead of using this as a teaching moment they dumb things down by giving everyone a trophy. I'm not heartless because when I see Little Johnny on the verge of tears it kills me because I want him to succeed. There is nothing better than that feeling but not everyone will at all times.
Look at a typical classroom and you will find AP kids who are going to go onto college, you will find kids who are in the middle that might go to college or might go to work, you will find kids who are definately going to work after school and you will find kids with learning disabilities. Why put all these different types of levels together? It just doesn't make sense. Same with sports - why put the elite players in with the players who are just there for a good time?
Another problem is that rec ball is the only opportunity some communities offer for kids to play. So kids who have talent and desire to be better are paired with kids who want to get a sno cone later on. It hurts everyone - the talented kids aren't being challenged and the kids out for fun now have to play in pressure situations. When this happens its usually due to socieoeconomic reasons. So how do you offse this? America is huge and what we have going on in our backyard might not be what's going on in other backyards.
In my opinion HS is about striving to be the best in each sport and playing at a high level. Now let's see how many people actually agree with me because there will be a lot who disagree. This creates a problem because it happens to rec ball and travel ball and elite ball. Everyone goes in with preconcieved notions about what they should expect and when it doesn't happen we got friction. Some people think rec ball is about having a good time while others think everytime you step foot onto the field it's about being the best you can be. I hate the phrase "it's about having fun" from my HS parents and makes me want to throw up. I just now found the parent who liked rec ball. Their perception of what HS is MUCH different than my perception of HS ball. Now we will have conflict.
So if a kid wants to play at the highest level possible then give them a team but if a kid wants to show up and have a good time then give them a team as well. I'm not going to coach the rec league player because that is not what I want. I want the pressure that comes with the highest levels. To me this is fun - I get my fun from the challenge from competing against myself and other players.
quote:a pastime, diversion, exercise, or other resource affording relaxation and enjoyment
If you look at the instruction book that comes with being a citizen of America it reads -
quote:Everyone should have the opportunity to do whatever it is they want
But the problem is they stop reading there and don't realize it continues to say
quote:if you are willing to put the hard work, effort, commitment and dedication into the opportunity you want
Not every kid is cut out to go as far as they can in baseball. Some kids just want to show up and throw a ball and hit a ball and field a ball. I don't have a problem with that. I think these kids should have that opportunity but the kids who want to go farther should have their own opportunity.
Rec ball should be for the kids who want to show up and have a good time. Elite, travel, high school, college should be for the kids who want to strive farther in the game (or any sport for that matter).
But here are the problems - we are letting the soft hearts rip out our natural born desire to strive for the best. These people want to homogenize everything so nobody ends up feeling left out or feelings hurt. They think it's terrible to see Little Johnny standing there not getting a trophy and he is close to tears. So instead of using this as a teaching moment they dumb things down by giving everyone a trophy. I'm not heartless because when I see Little Johnny on the verge of tears it kills me because I want him to succeed. There is nothing better than that feeling but not everyone will at all times.
Look at a typical classroom and you will find AP kids who are going to go onto college, you will find kids who are in the middle that might go to college or might go to work, you will find kids who are definately going to work after school and you will find kids with learning disabilities. Why put all these different types of levels together? It just doesn't make sense. Same with sports - why put the elite players in with the players who are just there for a good time?
Another problem is that rec ball is the only opportunity some communities offer for kids to play. So kids who have talent and desire to be better are paired with kids who want to get a sno cone later on. It hurts everyone - the talented kids aren't being challenged and the kids out for fun now have to play in pressure situations. When this happens its usually due to socieoeconomic reasons. So how do you offse this? America is huge and what we have going on in our backyard might not be what's going on in other backyards.
In my opinion HS is about striving to be the best in each sport and playing at a high level. Now let's see how many people actually agree with me because there will be a lot who disagree. This creates a problem because it happens to rec ball and travel ball and elite ball. Everyone goes in with preconcieved notions about what they should expect and when it doesn't happen we got friction. Some people think rec ball is about having a good time while others think everytime you step foot onto the field it's about being the best you can be. I hate the phrase "it's about having fun" from my HS parents and makes me want to throw up. I just now found the parent who liked rec ball. Their perception of what HS is MUCH different than my perception of HS ball. Now we will have conflict.
So if a kid wants to play at the highest level possible then give them a team but if a kid wants to show up and have a good time then give them a team as well. I'm not going to coach the rec league player because that is not what I want. I want the pressure that comes with the highest levels. To me this is fun - I get my fun from the challenge from competing against myself and other players.
I think some people forget just how challenged a 9yo can be. I only saw my son cry twice in his life. One his college teammate was killed and the other when he was carded by a coach who had an agenda at minor mosquito All Star. That was his 1st year of pitching and he cried himself to sleep. The only comfort was that 8 of the top players on the rookie All Star team were also cut or carded. They ended up firing the coach half way through the season. They called my son up but the parents made it so horrible for the new coach they could only use him sparingly regardless of how dominant he was. To me it was a learning experience and my son got past it.
Julie,
Good post but I would like to add something.
I do not beleive foreign born players are any better than our american born players. They come into the system earlier (no alternative), while many of our kids go off to college first, losing some of their window of opportunity while still in their teens. Most of us know this is because of money, while milb pay is a gold mine to most foreign born.They (foreign born) also help to make up a large part needed to field a team for milb.
We had this discussion with a group of folks at a game one night while watching two milb teams play, one team mostly american born, the other mostly foreign born. That team really had less talent compared to american born players.
Interesting, take a look at teams who load their milb system with foriegn born, they sometimes are at the bottom of their leagues. If many head off to college to avoid the early milb years, they need to field teams with players.
This may not be true in every case, but I will put up our young players to foreign born anytime.
Good post but I would like to add something.
I do not beleive foreign born players are any better than our american born players. They come into the system earlier (no alternative), while many of our kids go off to college first, losing some of their window of opportunity while still in their teens. Most of us know this is because of money, while milb pay is a gold mine to most foreign born.They (foreign born) also help to make up a large part needed to field a team for milb.
We had this discussion with a group of folks at a game one night while watching two milb teams play, one team mostly american born, the other mostly foreign born. That team really had less talent compared to american born players.
Interesting, take a look at teams who load their milb system with foriegn born, they sometimes are at the bottom of their leagues. If many head off to college to avoid the early milb years, they need to field teams with players.
This may not be true in every case, but I will put up our young players to foreign born anytime.
I think we need to discuss what is good for baseball before we can understand what is hurting baseball. It's good for baseball when a father signs his son up for LL. It's good for baseball when your neighbor comes to your son's game and his son wants your son to sign his ball or teach him how to play the game. It's great for baseball when the whole team and the families meets for pizza after the big game and they talk baseball. Baseball becomes a part of the community.
Those things didn't happen with my son. When my son went to a showcases it didn't help baseball --- it helped my son and HIS baseball. When my son joined a travel team and played most of their games "away" that did nothing to promote baseball but satisfied HIS baseball needs. High school was the exception. TV and newspapers were at almost every game. The stands were packed. This was "their" team --- "their" players. But then it's over too little --- and even some baseball players leave their HS to play elsewhere. When my son left our town and went 90 miles away to play for a select team it didn't help baseball --- it helped my son. The addition of my son may have made one select team better but by the same token his leaving his home town had to make one team worse. Unlike rec ball the only people that came to select games were select parents. If my son had had stayed home and played rec ball many more people would have come to the games, grandparents, friends, neighbors. Ever go to a "T" ball game and look at the crowds? More people show up at "T" ball games than select games. "T" ball gets more people in the community involved in baseball than anything else. As travel teams become more prevalent, the core of baseball players and parents leave town and community baseball withers on the vine. Each year the travel teams get younger and younger and more numerous. Rec ball gets weaker and weaker. The sad thing is today's travel teams are nothing more than yesterday's rec teams with new uniforms, team fees, paid coaches, and prouder parents that stay in hotels. Are coaches better? They are now but they are the same coaches rec ball had ---- before they left to play travel ball. If showcases filled professional rosters and college rosters that would have otherwise been unfilled then they would be the greatest thing that happened to baseball but those rosters will always be filled with the best talent regardless of showcases or camps. So in my opinion select teams, showcases, and even camps MAY help our son's baseball but I think they hurt the REAL game of baseball.
BUT I know if I have another son that's a good baseball player I would once again sacrafice a small part of baseball so that he might grow. Sorry Mr. Doubleday.
Fungo
Those things didn't happen with my son. When my son went to a showcases it didn't help baseball --- it helped my son and HIS baseball. When my son joined a travel team and played most of their games "away" that did nothing to promote baseball but satisfied HIS baseball needs. High school was the exception. TV and newspapers were at almost every game. The stands were packed. This was "their" team --- "their" players. But then it's over too little --- and even some baseball players leave their HS to play elsewhere. When my son left our town and went 90 miles away to play for a select team it didn't help baseball --- it helped my son. The addition of my son may have made one select team better but by the same token his leaving his home town had to make one team worse. Unlike rec ball the only people that came to select games were select parents. If my son had had stayed home and played rec ball many more people would have come to the games, grandparents, friends, neighbors. Ever go to a "T" ball game and look at the crowds? More people show up at "T" ball games than select games. "T" ball gets more people in the community involved in baseball than anything else. As travel teams become more prevalent, the core of baseball players and parents leave town and community baseball withers on the vine. Each year the travel teams get younger and younger and more numerous. Rec ball gets weaker and weaker. The sad thing is today's travel teams are nothing more than yesterday's rec teams with new uniforms, team fees, paid coaches, and prouder parents that stay in hotels. Are coaches better? They are now but they are the same coaches rec ball had ---- before they left to play travel ball. If showcases filled professional rosters and college rosters that would have otherwise been unfilled then they would be the greatest thing that happened to baseball but those rosters will always be filled with the best talent regardless of showcases or camps. So in my opinion select teams, showcases, and even camps MAY help our son's baseball but I think they hurt the REAL game of baseball.
BUT I know if I have another son that's a good baseball player I would once again sacrafice a small part of baseball so that he might grow. Sorry Mr. Doubleday.
Fungo
I think that your son playing for a team out of town opened up a roster spot for another kid to play local rec ball.
Fungo,
My older son elected to stay with his local team despite having offers to play at a higher level. No matter what he would have decided it wouldn't have changed much of anything. Well, I guess it might have opened up a spot on the local team and he might have taken a spot from someone on the higher level team. I have a hard time figuring out how he could have had much of an impact on the game of baseball. When he quit playing basketball it didn't seem to hurt the game of basketball in our community.
My younger son did play on a travel team. I really don't think what he did had any impact either way on the game of baseball. I did notice that it helped him, though.
I agree that all those things you mentioned are very good for baseball. I also think those things are still happening from coast to coast.
I think I do understand where you might be coming from. Thinking of what's in the best interest of the game. I've gone on record as claiming baseball fans are more important than baseball players. Baseball fans are the ones who take the game to the next generation. That, to me, is the main reason why rec leagues, or baseball for everyone, needs to exist. There needs to be free or low cost options for those who want to play baseball, so they have every opportunity to fall in love with baseball.
No matter what our children do... They are not capable of ruining baseball. It's much bigger than they are.
I certainly believe that professional and college rosters would be full with or without showcases, travel teams, tournaments, camps, rec ball, or anything else... It's just my opinion that those rosters would involve some different players. That would be just fine, other than certain players with the ability to play at Arizona State, Clemson, North Carolina, Southern Cal, Stanford, you name the college... would never be seen by that college. I'm not sure if that is a good or bad thing, I only know that many young people (thousands) have benefited from it. Without it, it’s very likely that Carl Crawford would be a football player right now.
If we look at other popular sports, specifically football and basketball… the top recruits(for the most part) are going to showcases and camps We have great baseball prospects missing baseball events in the summer because they are also great football prospects and they are attending football camps and showcases. We have basketball players that could be playing baseball in the summer going to big showcases and elite level tournaments that are scouted heavily. That bothers me, but it is what it is! A baseball player, playing baseball, will never be responsible for hurting the game.
Very interesting discussion! I admit that we have seen a lot and that I'm partial!
My older son elected to stay with his local team despite having offers to play at a higher level. No matter what he would have decided it wouldn't have changed much of anything. Well, I guess it might have opened up a spot on the local team and he might have taken a spot from someone on the higher level team. I have a hard time figuring out how he could have had much of an impact on the game of baseball. When he quit playing basketball it didn't seem to hurt the game of basketball in our community.
My younger son did play on a travel team. I really don't think what he did had any impact either way on the game of baseball. I did notice that it helped him, though.
I agree that all those things you mentioned are very good for baseball. I also think those things are still happening from coast to coast.
I think I do understand where you might be coming from. Thinking of what's in the best interest of the game. I've gone on record as claiming baseball fans are more important than baseball players. Baseball fans are the ones who take the game to the next generation. That, to me, is the main reason why rec leagues, or baseball for everyone, needs to exist. There needs to be free or low cost options for those who want to play baseball, so they have every opportunity to fall in love with baseball.
No matter what our children do... They are not capable of ruining baseball. It's much bigger than they are.
I certainly believe that professional and college rosters would be full with or without showcases, travel teams, tournaments, camps, rec ball, or anything else... It's just my opinion that those rosters would involve some different players. That would be just fine, other than certain players with the ability to play at Arizona State, Clemson, North Carolina, Southern Cal, Stanford, you name the college... would never be seen by that college. I'm not sure if that is a good or bad thing, I only know that many young people (thousands) have benefited from it. Without it, it’s very likely that Carl Crawford would be a football player right now.
If we look at other popular sports, specifically football and basketball… the top recruits(for the most part) are going to showcases and camps We have great baseball prospects missing baseball events in the summer because they are also great football prospects and they are attending football camps and showcases. We have basketball players that could be playing baseball in the summer going to big showcases and elite level tournaments that are scouted heavily. That bothers me, but it is what it is! A baseball player, playing baseball, will never be responsible for hurting the game.
Very interesting discussion! I admit that we have seen a lot and that I'm partial!
I am not against showcases or for them. They have changed recruiting and scouting by creating a shopping mall one stop mentallity which in these times may be a good thing. They have however hurt the way things were done in the past where scouts would meet at local tornaments to look for prospects. We used to get 20-30 scouts at all of our tournaments but that is a thing of the past. It created some excitment that has dissapeared to a great extent.
Although we didn't showcase I cetainly think they are part of the evolution of BB. Getting a big time college was never an issue with us. We had interest from a few but only because we sent them a DVD. I know my son loved the College of Charleston and said he would have liked to go there. That is the only one he mentioned that he liked after playing at several great schools.
Although we didn't showcase I cetainly think they are part of the evolution of BB. Getting a big time college was never an issue with us. We had interest from a few but only because we sent them a DVD. I know my son loved the College of Charleston and said he would have liked to go there. That is the only one he mentioned that he liked after playing at several great schools.
quote:Originally posted by coach2709: Not every kid is cut out to go as far as they can in baseball. Some kids just want to show up and throw a ball and hit a ball and field a ball. I don't have a problem with that. I think these kids should have that opportunity but the kids who want to go farther should have their own opportunity.
Rec ball should be for the kids who want to show up and have a good time. Elite, travel, high school, college should be for the kids who want to strive farther in the game (or any sport for that matter).
Well, up until the comment about HS, I was pretty much agreein’ with ya. I’ve seen tons of HS players who will never go any farther, nor do they plan on it, and the same can be said about college players. I think you’re pretty much on track, but that broad brush is being used again and it just isn’t appropriate.
quote:But here are the problems - we are letting the soft hearts …
Broad brush again. The WE you used seems pretty darn inclusive to me, and that simply isn’t fair. There definitely are people like that, but it certainly isn’t everyone.
quote:Look at a typical classroom and you will find AP kids who are going to go onto college, you will find kids who are in the middle that might go to college or might go to work, you will find kids who are definately going to work after school and you will find kids with learning disabilities. Why put all these different types of levels together? It just doesn't make sense. Same with sports - why put the elite players in with the players who are just there for a good time?
EXCUSE ME?????? It sure appears that you want to deprive students because they don’t fit into your little niche, and that is bogus! How do you DEFINITELY know what a child in school is going to do with the rest of their life? The object is to educate them and hopefully they’ll decide to continue that education. It honestly sounds like when I went to school where the gals all got pushed into Home Ec and the Jocks all got pushed toward Shop. If a kid is eligible for those classes, I’d think what you’d want to see is s/he getting pushed to attend.
quote:Another problem is that rec ball is the only opportunity …
Too broad a brush again.
quote:In my opinion HS is about striving to be the best in each sport and playing at a high level. Now let's see how many people actually agree with me because there will be a lot who disagree. This creates a problem because it happens to rec ball and travel ball and elite ball. Everyone goes in with preconcieved notions about what they should expect and when it doesn't happen we got friction. Some people think rec ball is about having a good time while others think everytime you step foot onto the field it's about being the best you can be. I hate the phrase "it's about having fun" from my HS parents and makes me want to throw up. I just now found the parent who liked rec ball. Their perception of what HS is MUCH different than my perception of HS ball. Now we will have conflict.
You’re precisely correct. SOME people do act and think the way you describe them, but it certainly isn’t everyone. So who gets to make the decision that Bill gets to take a college prep class and play HS sports while Tom who is every bit as intelligent and skilled as an athlete gets to make birdhouses and watch the real athletes participate in sports, you? Why not me?
quote:So if a kid wants to play at the highest level possible then give them a team but if a kid wants to show up and have a good time then give them a team as well. I'm not going to coach the rec league player because that is not what I want. I want the pressure that comes with the highest levels. To me this is fun - I get my fun from the challenge from competing against myself and other players.
Not only is that ok, chances are you’re not the kind of coach the majority of people would want setting the example for their children. But, I know darned well there are coaches equally competent who get the most fulfillment and gratification in assisting those who need it the most. That’s why seats come in all kinds of different sizes, shapes, colors, and fabrics.
Wow Skeep way to either not understand or twist what I put for whatever reason. You totally missed all my points.
I'll concede that the one about HS is open to debate.
As for the WE you liked to highlight about the soft hearts (apparantly you may have taken this as directed towards you when it wasn't) you do realize you can use the word we and still not refer to everyone. We could pretty much just be about two people which leaves A LOT of people not included which you seem to be pretty adamant about. So in case you missed it when I say we I am talking only about the people who feel like myself that we are lessening standards and making too many accomadations just so more people can feel like they have accomplished something. That cheapens it for the ones who actually do accomplish something.
You have obviously never been in a classroom because mixing the different skill / knowledge levels makes teaching very difficult. I got anywhere from 50 minutes to 90 minutes to get students to understand my lesson. If I go at the pace that is good for the high end kids then what about the low end kids? What if I aim at the low end kids then how is the slower pace helping the high end kids? How about aiming towards the middle so we are still too slow for the high end kids but still to fast for the low end kids. That's the way to reach everyone.
Now the wonderous leaders of the education system have decided to "reach" all those different level students through differentied learning. Since most classes have the 4 levels of learners I just put now I have to come up with 4 different lesson plans to teach the exact same lesson. Surely you see the difficult task that lies in that.
You say the goal is to educate them but let me ask you what does it mean to educate someone? How do you measure that education? What are the standards to base it on? Its a much more difficult problem than to just let them get into classes and hope for the best.
Since you obviously missed the point of my post let me simplify it for you. Offer all classes to all students but test their level of skill and place them accordingly to that. Group the high end kids together and hammer down. Group the low end kids together and go at a pace which allows them to learn the material. And so on and so forth. Now if a kid wants to get into a class that is a higher level then let them but make them realize that the pace is faster and if they can't keep up then there is a chance of failure.
Don't give me the garbage excuse of "if they are in a low end class then they will think they are low end". You are putting them in a position to succeed and gain the same knowledge as the high end kids.
Plus I don't see a problem in giving aptitude tests around the 7th grade to find out what students are interested in and have a natural ability in and steer them towards that field. Now if they want to go against what the tests say that is fine. In fact there are some schools who are going towards something like this. They are called small learning communities. You take the school and break it up into different "schools" (like a university system) and after the freshman year they choose if they want to go into math or science or english or vocational or drama or whatever the school offers. You still teach the basics but concentrate on the area of focus.
Now as for you twisting what I put let me clarify something you misquoted
Way to leave off the most important part of the statement just so you can use your broad brush comment. There are places where rec ball is the only option. Travel teams or elite teams are not an option. The place where I grew up does not have travel or elite teams. So if you play baseball then you are playing in the rec league. Plus I doubt you are an expert on what every community can offer.
This statement really doesn't make any sense with what you took out of my post.
So you are saying that there are places where everyone is on the same page and there is no friction because one group doesn't see things differently than another group? If that is true then let me know the address so I can move there (assuming everyone there have the same views as I do). I was just trying to say that there will be friction in rec ball because some kids (not everyone - I got rid of that brush) won't take it seriously while others will take it seriously.
Now as for you wondering who's going to tell Bill and Tom what classes to take = let them make that decision for themselves. But give them an option of having a class where it will go at the pace they need to be successful in they strive a little too high.
This is the point I was trying to make which you failed to get - there are all kinds of people out there. Some are like me who want to be at the highest level (coaching and teaching). While others are just perfect for the ones who are just out there for a good time.
I'll concede that the one about HS is open to debate.
As for the WE you liked to highlight about the soft hearts (apparantly you may have taken this as directed towards you when it wasn't) you do realize you can use the word we and still not refer to everyone. We could pretty much just be about two people which leaves A LOT of people not included which you seem to be pretty adamant about. So in case you missed it when I say we I am talking only about the people who feel like myself that we are lessening standards and making too many accomadations just so more people can feel like they have accomplished something. That cheapens it for the ones who actually do accomplish something.
You have obviously never been in a classroom because mixing the different skill / knowledge levels makes teaching very difficult. I got anywhere from 50 minutes to 90 minutes to get students to understand my lesson. If I go at the pace that is good for the high end kids then what about the low end kids? What if I aim at the low end kids then how is the slower pace helping the high end kids? How about aiming towards the middle so we are still too slow for the high end kids but still to fast for the low end kids. That's the way to reach everyone.
Now the wonderous leaders of the education system have decided to "reach" all those different level students through differentied learning. Since most classes have the 4 levels of learners I just put now I have to come up with 4 different lesson plans to teach the exact same lesson. Surely you see the difficult task that lies in that.
You say the goal is to educate them but let me ask you what does it mean to educate someone? How do you measure that education? What are the standards to base it on? Its a much more difficult problem than to just let them get into classes and hope for the best.
Since you obviously missed the point of my post let me simplify it for you. Offer all classes to all students but test their level of skill and place them accordingly to that. Group the high end kids together and hammer down. Group the low end kids together and go at a pace which allows them to learn the material. And so on and so forth. Now if a kid wants to get into a class that is a higher level then let them but make them realize that the pace is faster and if they can't keep up then there is a chance of failure.
Don't give me the garbage excuse of "if they are in a low end class then they will think they are low end". You are putting them in a position to succeed and gain the same knowledge as the high end kids.
Plus I don't see a problem in giving aptitude tests around the 7th grade to find out what students are interested in and have a natural ability in and steer them towards that field. Now if they want to go against what the tests say that is fine. In fact there are some schools who are going towards something like this. They are called small learning communities. You take the school and break it up into different "schools" (like a university system) and after the freshman year they choose if they want to go into math or science or english or vocational or drama or whatever the school offers. You still teach the basics but concentrate on the area of focus.
Now as for you twisting what I put let me clarify something you misquoted
quote:Another problem is that rec ball is the only opportunity some communities offer for kids to play
Way to leave off the most important part of the statement just so you can use your broad brush comment. There are places where rec ball is the only option. Travel teams or elite teams are not an option. The place where I grew up does not have travel or elite teams. So if you play baseball then you are playing in the rec league. Plus I doubt you are an expert on what every community can offer.
This statement really doesn't make any sense with what you took out of my post.
quote:You’re precisely correct. SOME people do act and think the way you describe them, but it certainly isn’t everyone. So who gets to make the decision that Bill gets to take a college prep class and play HS sports while Tom who is every bit as intelligent and skilled as an athlete gets to make birdhouses and watch the real athletes participate in sports, you? Why not me?
So you are saying that there are places where everyone is on the same page and there is no friction because one group doesn't see things differently than another group? If that is true then let me know the address so I can move there (assuming everyone there have the same views as I do). I was just trying to say that there will be friction in rec ball because some kids (not everyone - I got rid of that brush) won't take it seriously while others will take it seriously.
Now as for you wondering who's going to tell Bill and Tom what classes to take = let them make that decision for themselves. But give them an option of having a class where it will go at the pace they need to be successful in they strive a little too high.
quote:Not only is that ok, chances are you’re not the kind of coach the majority of people would want setting the example for their children. But, I know darned well there are coaches equally competent who get the most fulfillment and gratification in assisting those who need it the most. That’s why seats come in all kinds of different sizes, shapes, colors, and fabrics.
This is the point I was trying to make which you failed to get - there are all kinds of people out there. Some are like me who want to be at the highest level (coaching and teaching). While others are just perfect for the ones who are just out there for a good time.
Also, I am not going to reply to anything you put here because this is going in a totally different direction of the original point of the thread.
If you have something you would like to discuss further start a new thread or PM me. I believe I have done a good job of explaining myself.
If you have something you would like to discuss further start a new thread or PM me. I believe I have done a good job of explaining myself.
Bobbleheaddoll,
"Julie is that the same twins that just left Toronto this AM ?"
OUCH! They didn't have a very successful road trip, did they? I'm still optimistic for the Twins to have a strong September, but my hubby is not...
Julie
"Julie is that the same twins that just left Toronto this AM ?"
OUCH! They didn't have a very successful road trip, did they? I'm still optimistic for the Twins to have a strong September, but my hubby is not...
Julie
reading this thread ,and many others like it have made me think. (thats not always a good thing.)
there are many people here who's son's play at a very high level. i am assuming there are some who's son's don't play at the elite level. but still are part of the game of baseball.
i'm not really up on stats but i'd bet there are far more ok players than elite players. all the ok players aren't going to play travel ball,most will not have a need for a showcase.
but without those ok player's where would baseball be ? hurting. they are all important for the good of the game.
while i agree there comes a point that a player finds he has progressed to the point he needs to step up another level. what i see is more and more false levels,teams started up so that more kids are playing travel ball. that isn't helping anyone.
does it feel to you that most advice here is aimed at the elite player? is that the way it should be? do the ok players need any tips from us?
when we say "baseball" do we mean everyone, just the elite, just the ok guy's ?
just some of my thoughts.
there are many people here who's son's play at a very high level. i am assuming there are some who's son's don't play at the elite level. but still are part of the game of baseball.
i'm not really up on stats but i'd bet there are far more ok players than elite players. all the ok players aren't going to play travel ball,most will not have a need for a showcase.
but without those ok player's where would baseball be ? hurting. they are all important for the good of the game.
while i agree there comes a point that a player finds he has progressed to the point he needs to step up another level. what i see is more and more false levels,teams started up so that more kids are playing travel ball. that isn't helping anyone.
does it feel to you that most advice here is aimed at the elite player? is that the way it should be? do the ok players need any tips from us?
when we say "baseball" do we mean everyone, just the elite, just the ok guy's ?
just some of my thoughts.
The ok players still and always will continue to need a venue to play baseball . For fun, for sportsmanship and everything else. I would probably venture out and say most or a lot of the posters here have kids that play or will play at the next level after HS.
I found this site when my son was getting ready to try out for the HS team. There was a list of what to do to make the HS team.Seems like yesterday.
This site is helpful to all types of players.
I found this site when my son was getting ready to try out for the HS team. There was a list of what to do to make the HS team.Seems like yesterday.
This site is helpful to all types of players.
quote:My older son elected to stay with his local team despite having offers to play at a higher level. No matter what he would have decided it wouldn't have changed much of anything.
PG Staff I agree 100%. But at the same time we should recognize that it does change things ever so slightly. Maybe its like 1 person voting. However the impact felt by travel teams around here is very obvious maybe because it happen with groups of players. On the other side of the argument we just recently opened a beautiful new 17 field facility (baseball/softball) slightly out of town that caters mostly to travel teams but is starting to allow more local play. The main selling point of the sportsplex was the positive economic impact generated by the influx of travel teams $$$$. Sounds good. I am glad the developmnet happened but at the same time it also confirms that money is influencing youth sports more and more and does make good baseball more difficult if not impossible for some. Hopefully this activity will revitalize youth baseball in our town but I have my doubts. I know our community will sacrifice the small fields scattered throughout the neighborhoods (that used to draw baseball families together) for this one big "money making" travel complex. Things are changing. Time will tell how this plays out.
Fungo
PS: I feel as if phase two of this scenario will happen a few years down the road when the Sportsplex donates $1,000.00 to the RBI program ---- "Return baseball to the Innercity"
quote:Originally posted by Fungo:...Each year the travel teams get younger and younger and more numerous. Rec ball gets weaker and weaker. The sad thing is today's travel teams are nothing more than yesterday's rec teams with new uniforms, team fees, paid coaches, and prouder parents that stay in hotels. Are coaches better? They are now but they are the same coaches rec ball had...
Nicely stated!
I can't speak for what's going on across the nation, but I'll tell you what I observe right around here.
Little Leagues used to promote kids ahead, or cut kids back, to group players by ability. That allowed kids to enjoy the game at a level where they could compete enough to have fun. That's as opposed to having the weaker hitters face pitchers they couldn't hope to succeed against and vice versa.
Now they lump all the kids in together, grouping only according to age. This starts a vicious cycle where the less talented kids struggle so much they drop out, and the more talented kids feel so unchallenged they leave for travel ball. Rec league numbers drop like a stone as they bleed players from both ends of the spectrum.
All this started because we were so afraid of hurting someone's feelings by cutting them. Great, now they don't play baseball anywhere at all.
In the meantime, our local LL has decided basically to bail on the whole notion of teaching the game. Practices are like recess and coaches are taught not so much to instruct as to handle the kids like the coaches were all striving to be Barney the Purple Dinosaur. Don't strive, you're already special, no need to worry about learning or improving, put on a happy face.
The games, by the way, are a nightmare to watch. Mind-numbingly slow and boring. Walks and walks and walks. 12-year-old kids who cannot catch a routine grounder or pop-up. Errors by the score.
And the emphasis is all about the games. Rainout? It's OK, we only had one practice scheduled this week but we'll play the game in that time slot and not practice at all. Instead of Billy taking 50 grounders in practice, maybe someone will hit him 1 or 2 during the game. During the 3 innings he gets to play, that is.
Sometimes I think these games are more about playing dress-up than playing baseball. Because none of these kids play the game away from their LL events. Remember back in the day when you played with the kids in the neighborhood, or out in the street, every day of the week all summer long? Show me one place where that happens any more. Somewhere in the U.S., that is. (You can find it in Latin America!)
Want to play for real? The local LL is spawning all sorts of travel teams. Instead of having travel teams be elite talent only, we now have teams basically doing what LL used to do -- teach the game and allow players to seek out competition commensurate with their own level. The LL leadership basically says, if you want instruction and competition, hit the road. Here we just goof around on a ball field.
If we would just go back to the old system where players were grouped by ability and not strictly by age, it'd work out fine.
There have always been, and will always be, parents who gripe long and loud if junior gets cut. What's changed is that the leadership apparently no longer has the spine to stick by a decision. We've let the gripers take us down this path to where rec ball, which used to be reasonably good, has become focused on the lowest common denominator.
I'm all for having a place for the lesser athletic kids can play the game and learn to love it. I just don't understand why we cannot do that in a setting that actually teaches them the fundamentals, so that they can teach them to their own children in turn some day. We're basically giving the more knowledgeable coaches and the more athletic kids the back of our hand and telling them to go elsewhere.
No wonder they do.
And by the way, how does the current system serve the "late bloomer"? When I was 12, I was cut back a level. But I ended up playing college ball. Today, even if a kid like me sticks with the game, he would reach HS age without anyone teaching him anything, and likely would not make his HS team.
Little Leagues used to promote kids ahead, or cut kids back, to group players by ability. That allowed kids to enjoy the game at a level where they could compete enough to have fun. That's as opposed to having the weaker hitters face pitchers they couldn't hope to succeed against and vice versa.
Now they lump all the kids in together, grouping only according to age. This starts a vicious cycle where the less talented kids struggle so much they drop out, and the more talented kids feel so unchallenged they leave for travel ball. Rec league numbers drop like a stone as they bleed players from both ends of the spectrum.
All this started because we were so afraid of hurting someone's feelings by cutting them. Great, now they don't play baseball anywhere at all.
In the meantime, our local LL has decided basically to bail on the whole notion of teaching the game. Practices are like recess and coaches are taught not so much to instruct as to handle the kids like the coaches were all striving to be Barney the Purple Dinosaur. Don't strive, you're already special, no need to worry about learning or improving, put on a happy face.
The games, by the way, are a nightmare to watch. Mind-numbingly slow and boring. Walks and walks and walks. 12-year-old kids who cannot catch a routine grounder or pop-up. Errors by the score.
And the emphasis is all about the games. Rainout? It's OK, we only had one practice scheduled this week but we'll play the game in that time slot and not practice at all. Instead of Billy taking 50 grounders in practice, maybe someone will hit him 1 or 2 during the game. During the 3 innings he gets to play, that is.
Sometimes I think these games are more about playing dress-up than playing baseball. Because none of these kids play the game away from their LL events. Remember back in the day when you played with the kids in the neighborhood, or out in the street, every day of the week all summer long? Show me one place where that happens any more. Somewhere in the U.S., that is. (You can find it in Latin America!)
Want to play for real? The local LL is spawning all sorts of travel teams. Instead of having travel teams be elite talent only, we now have teams basically doing what LL used to do -- teach the game and allow players to seek out competition commensurate with their own level. The LL leadership basically says, if you want instruction and competition, hit the road. Here we just goof around on a ball field.
If we would just go back to the old system where players were grouped by ability and not strictly by age, it'd work out fine.
There have always been, and will always be, parents who gripe long and loud if junior gets cut. What's changed is that the leadership apparently no longer has the spine to stick by a decision. We've let the gripers take us down this path to where rec ball, which used to be reasonably good, has become focused on the lowest common denominator.
I'm all for having a place for the lesser athletic kids can play the game and learn to love it. I just don't understand why we cannot do that in a setting that actually teaches them the fundamentals, so that they can teach them to their own children in turn some day. We're basically giving the more knowledgeable coaches and the more athletic kids the back of our hand and telling them to go elsewhere.
No wonder they do.
And by the way, how does the current system serve the "late bloomer"? When I was 12, I was cut back a level. But I ended up playing college ball. Today, even if a kid like me sticks with the game, he would reach HS age without anyone teaching him anything, and likely would not make his HS team.
Amen Midlo Amen
Midlo
Isn't that what that league wanted to do with the 9 yr old pitcher who they said was to good to pitch? They had teams for less experienced players and wanted the better pitcher moved up or play with more talented players.... Everyone yelled that it was unfair. can't win
Isn't that what that league wanted to do with the 9 yr old pitcher who they said was to good to pitch? They had teams for less experienced players and wanted the better pitcher moved up or play with more talented players.... Everyone yelled that it was unfair. can't win
Fungo it isn't that the kids get younger and younger, we get older and older.
Some rec coaches actually develop their game too but very few move up to the Elite level. My son's rec team had a former MiLB pitcher and a pro fast ball pitcher as 2 of the 5 coaches. That was a fluke and not the norm. Most were just volunteer parents with little BB experience at the young ages. It was mandated that they had to get every kid into a game and rotate them except catching.
The hard part that I saw was kids with talent lose interest when the level of play is too poor. Once the guys got older, the ones who still played got better. Some just didn't want to play travel ball. They were not dedicated to the game. The kids who got to midget age often dropped out because of jobs and girls. Their interests changed.
Some rec coaches actually develop their game too but very few move up to the Elite level. My son's rec team had a former MiLB pitcher and a pro fast ball pitcher as 2 of the 5 coaches. That was a fluke and not the norm. Most were just volunteer parents with little BB experience at the young ages. It was mandated that they had to get every kid into a game and rotate them except catching.
The hard part that I saw was kids with talent lose interest when the level of play is too poor. Once the guys got older, the ones who still played got better. Some just didn't want to play travel ball. They were not dedicated to the game. The kids who got to midget age often dropped out because of jobs and girls. Their interests changed.
A problem in some leagues is those coaches who DO teach the game...who DO develop the players...are the coaches who's teams always win and that does not sit well with the PC parents...and those coaches sometimes get fed up with the politics and leave to start and coach travel teams.
In our area it would be very hard to start your own team if not impossible. What they did here was conspire to get a coach kicked out and take his place.
The parks are very tightly controlled by a couple leagues and you need money to commit to the parks.
Also the teams get new uniforms every year and usually 3 of them plus bags and other equipment.
The parks are very tightly controlled by a couple leagues and you need money to commit to the parks.
Also the teams get new uniforms every year and usually 3 of them plus bags and other equipment.
NJBB,
I didn't follow that whole situation completely, just a little, but I don't think it is the same situation.
First, the boy wasn't really doing anything that unusual or special for his age group. So to me, it was sad that the state of the level of play in that rec league was so low that his rather average MPH (40 was what was reported) was considered too scary for his opposition.
Second, I think that situation actually supports my point. That kid was told that if he wanted to really play, he'd have to go elsewhere, because League Commissioner Harrison Bergeron did not want him hurting anyone's feelings by making them feel inadequate in the rec league.
Now, if that kid threw 60 or something, moving him up would have been appropriate. As it was, they basically told a fairly average player to get lost, you're too good for what we do here.
To me, if a kid cannot hit 40 mph pitching at age 9, he needs instruction, practice, and maybe to drop back to play at his own level. Punishing the achiever is not the right approach, at least not if you hope to keep him and others like him around. But as I've said, I think they're making it clear, they don't really care if they do stick around.
Also, to JT -- been there, seen that too!
I didn't follow that whole situation completely, just a little, but I don't think it is the same situation.
First, the boy wasn't really doing anything that unusual or special for his age group. So to me, it was sad that the state of the level of play in that rec league was so low that his rather average MPH (40 was what was reported) was considered too scary for his opposition.
Second, I think that situation actually supports my point. That kid was told that if he wanted to really play, he'd have to go elsewhere, because League Commissioner Harrison Bergeron did not want him hurting anyone's feelings by making them feel inadequate in the rec league.
Now, if that kid threw 60 or something, moving him up would have been appropriate. As it was, they basically told a fairly average player to get lost, you're too good for what we do here.
To me, if a kid cannot hit 40 mph pitching at age 9, he needs instruction, practice, and maybe to drop back to play at his own level. Punishing the achiever is not the right approach, at least not if you hope to keep him and others like him around. But as I've said, I think they're making it clear, they don't really care if they do stick around.
Also, to JT -- been there, seen that too!
Midlo Dad,
The situation in New Haven was reported in various ways, but I believe that the facts that emerged are: The pitcher already plays on a Pony team in New Haven, and is middle of the pack in talent in that league. Halfway through the rec league season, he was brought onto one of the rec teams, and became "too fast to hit". The rec league is aimed at kids who have little baseball experience.
If this presentation of the facts is correct, then this kid moved down (as opposed to being asked by the rec league to move up), and thus went from average to stud. If I understood your point made earlier in this thread, you wouldn't advise him to play in the rec league, since he was already at the correct level in Pony.
The situation in New Haven was reported in various ways, but I believe that the facts that emerged are: The pitcher already plays on a Pony team in New Haven, and is middle of the pack in talent in that league. Halfway through the rec league season, he was brought onto one of the rec teams, and became "too fast to hit". The rec league is aimed at kids who have little baseball experience.
If this presentation of the facts is correct, then this kid moved down (as opposed to being asked by the rec league to move up), and thus went from average to stud. If I understood your point made earlier in this thread, you wouldn't advise him to play in the rec league, since he was already at the correct level in Pony.