ClevelandDad
Thanks, so much for your kind words. I hope that I write well enough, I certainly seem to be long winded enough! (I definitley have problems with reading and retention, however!)
Hi proudpapa,
I was just catching up on reading the HHBBW and saw your question. I did not try to read through everyone's responses but can relate what I saw with a couple of kids my son played with.
In a very similar situation to yours the kid actually had bone spears in the shoulder that did not show up until they went in with a scope and looked around in the shoulder area. The procedure was not very traumatic and the kid was good as new in no time.
Another kid I knew had stretched ligaments or tendons that appeared as pain in the back and the shoulder. They were ready to go to some extreme measures until one doctor finally suggested he work with a physical therapist and once everything started to tighten up the pain disappeared.
I was just catching up on reading the HHBBW and saw your question. I did not try to read through everyone's responses but can relate what I saw with a couple of kids my son played with.
In a very similar situation to yours the kid actually had bone spears in the shoulder that did not show up until they went in with a scope and looked around in the shoulder area. The procedure was not very traumatic and the kid was good as new in no time.
Another kid I knew had stretched ligaments or tendons that appeared as pain in the back and the shoulder. They were ready to go to some extreme measures until one doctor finally suggested he work with a physical therapist and once everything started to tighten up the pain disappeared.
Just a quick update......my son had the MRI this week. We see the ortho on this coming Tuesday (1/15). Will keep you posted.
He is still continuing with physical therapy at this time, increasing his range of motion, little to no pain at all, but at this point has not yet resumed throwing.
His therapist used to work in the Mets organization. He told us he is close to begin light throwing. One of our biggest concerns/frustrations is this is his SR season.........we'll see how it plays out.
He is still continuing with physical therapy at this time, increasing his range of motion, little to no pain at all, but at this point has not yet resumed throwing.
His therapist used to work in the Mets organization. He told us he is close to begin light throwing. One of our biggest concerns/frustrations is this is his SR season.........we'll see how it plays out.
Good idea to have a sperate thread for this topic.
quote:Originally posted by jbbaseball:
Just a quick update......my son had the MRI this week. We see the ortho on this coming Tuesday (1/15). Will keep you posted.
He is still continuing with physical therapy at this time, increasing his range of motion, little to no pain at all, but at this point has not yet resumed throwing.
His therapist used to work in the Mets organization. He told us he is close to begin light throwing. One of our biggest concerns/frustrations is this is his SR season.........we'll see how it plays out.
he needs to take it REAL slow, regardless of what the rehab people say and doctors. Don't let him go too fast with his recovery. It will be regretted by everyone involved. Ruining an arm stops participation in the sport. cool off ANY pitching for a long, long time.
quote:Originally posted by jbbaseball:
Just a quick update......my son had the MRI this week. We see the ortho on this coming Tuesday (1/15). Will keep you posted.
He is still continuing with physical therapy at this time, increasing his range of motion, little to no pain at all, but at this point has not yet resumed throwing.
His therapist used to work in the Mets organization. He told us he is close to begin light throwing. One of our biggest concerns/frustrations is this is his SR season.........we'll see how it plays out.
While I understand the desire to have your son healthy and ready to play his senior year, the information in your posts leads me to think the therapist is, at this time, providing optimism without the critical information to do so.
Medically, it is very difficult to tell the difference between bursitis/impingement and a labral tear. At times, both are involved.
To be quite candid, based on our son's experience, I would be very reluctant to rely on the diagnosis of the therapist, even one who has been at the MLB level.
The only way to know if your son has a labral tear/impingement or both, is the MRI which will be reported tomorrow. That should provide the guidance you need to make the next steps and decisions on care and rehab. I hope it goes well tomorrow.
Until the MRI results are known, I would not let the trainer, or the improvement with PT and without throwing, influence your thinking on his care or on throwing.
What HE SAID. Very good advice.
Louisiana09,
Dr. Andrews has a spectacular new facility in Gulf Breeze, Florida...The Andrews Institute. My son had Bankhart repair about 12 weeks ago for a torn labrum. I believe they just opened last March.
Our experience: son severely dislocated his arm a week before his senior season was to begin. We saw an excellent doctor; reports didnt show a tear. Son was determined to do aggressive therapy and be able to play, if even a portion of his senior season. After 8 weeks, he finally got to play (ss/pitcher), but was recommended to only pitch since he injured his non-throwing arm while diving for a ball at SS. The third to the last game of season, he threw a no-hitter and had a good end to his high school career. In JUCO, was the starting SS and had an excellent freshman year. But during, the first fall game of this season (OCT. 07) he dove back to 1B on a pick off.....and dislocated again. MRI -labral tear. Surgery scheduled w/ Dr. Andrews.
He has taken a medical redshirt this spring soph yr at JUCO. After 12 weeks, he's healing great...and waiting on the o.k. to begin some light weight training. It has been very tough, emotionally, to handle; a lot of kids are determined to keep it going...and will just keep getting back up.
Dr. Andrews has a spectacular new facility in Gulf Breeze, Florida...The Andrews Institute. My son had Bankhart repair about 12 weeks ago for a torn labrum. I believe they just opened last March.
Our experience: son severely dislocated his arm a week before his senior season was to begin. We saw an excellent doctor; reports didnt show a tear. Son was determined to do aggressive therapy and be able to play, if even a portion of his senior season. After 8 weeks, he finally got to play (ss/pitcher), but was recommended to only pitch since he injured his non-throwing arm while diving for a ball at SS. The third to the last game of season, he threw a no-hitter and had a good end to his high school career. In JUCO, was the starting SS and had an excellent freshman year. But during, the first fall game of this season (OCT. 07) he dove back to 1B on a pick off.....and dislocated again. MRI -labral tear. Surgery scheduled w/ Dr. Andrews.
He has taken a medical redshirt this spring soph yr at JUCO. After 12 weeks, he's healing great...and waiting on the o.k. to begin some light weight training. It has been very tough, emotionally, to handle; a lot of kids are determined to keep it going...and will just keep getting back up.
jbbaseball,
First all, I truly wish for the best for your son.
It sounds to me like you are doing all the right things.
Getting the right information and getting the second opinion is exactly the right approach.
Taking a portion of your post, the rehab of no throwing for 6 months isn't anything I have heard/read about or experienced with our son. The ability to begin throwing post surgery is an estimate based on range of motion and strength, and medical oversight.
The more normal time to begin throwing is 3-4 months with good recovery/PT and strengthening. The throwing rehab program itself is 8-12 weeks, also if all goes well.
With regard to the "playing cannot make it worse," I can tell you our son did hear that. Personally, I have my doubts.
As you know, a MIF is going to be making throws from various positions, many of them off balance. He will also be diving for balls with his arm extended.
While it may or may not be true that "throwing" alone won't make it worse, that isn't baseball the way our son's play it.
In effect, playing this season is a question of how much pain your son can endure and the extent of clicking/catching/instability he may experience.
Playing with a labral tear is as much mental as it is physical. You need to know that in advance.
In my view, it also requires a coach who truly can help deal with both and who can help your son fundamentally in the field so that he, to the extent possible, he reduces the stress on his shoulder. I cannot underestimate for you the mental component of this situation.
With all that said, it is very difficult having your son assured that "playing won't make it worse" and hearing, after the surgery, "that was worse than the MRI showed."
As you might be able to tell, we have some experience and our son is a MIF.
Please don't hesitate to PM if you would like to discuss more privately.
I am really hoping for the best for your son.
He is lucky to have your helping him.
First all, I truly wish for the best for your son.
It sounds to me like you are doing all the right things.
Getting the right information and getting the second opinion is exactly the right approach.
Taking a portion of your post, the rehab of no throwing for 6 months isn't anything I have heard/read about or experienced with our son. The ability to begin throwing post surgery is an estimate based on range of motion and strength, and medical oversight.
The more normal time to begin throwing is 3-4 months with good recovery/PT and strengthening. The throwing rehab program itself is 8-12 weeks, also if all goes well.
With regard to the "playing cannot make it worse," I can tell you our son did hear that. Personally, I have my doubts.
As you know, a MIF is going to be making throws from various positions, many of them off balance. He will also be diving for balls with his arm extended.
While it may or may not be true that "throwing" alone won't make it worse, that isn't baseball the way our son's play it.
In effect, playing this season is a question of how much pain your son can endure and the extent of clicking/catching/instability he may experience.
Playing with a labral tear is as much mental as it is physical. You need to know that in advance.
In my view, it also requires a coach who truly can help deal with both and who can help your son fundamentally in the field so that he, to the extent possible, he reduces the stress on his shoulder. I cannot underestimate for you the mental component of this situation.
With all that said, it is very difficult having your son assured that "playing won't make it worse" and hearing, after the surgery, "that was worse than the MRI showed."
As you might be able to tell, we have some experience and our son is a MIF.
Please don't hesitate to PM if you would like to discuss more privately.
I am really hoping for the best for your son.
He is lucky to have your helping him.
jbbaseball: you have a PM
Infielddad gives good advice.
My son just informed me of a shoulder problem a couple days ago. He noticed it while playing summer laegue. Very mild pinch feeling in right front and side of shoulder. It goes away after a few warm up throws.
This is the 1st time that he has had a problem and blames it on poor workouts in summer ball. It is the 1st time he has ever not worked out all year. It is mainle a stiff feeling. I made him tell the trainer and he is on Anti inflamatory drugs and heat/cold compresses.
He has no loss of motion or any pain. I want him to get an MRI but the trainer feels it is a minor issue. Not sure I buy that. I have a call out to his doctor who deals with this on a regular basis.
Son didn't complain but mentioned it when I asked how his arm felt as I routinely do. No panic as far as I am concerned at this point but he may have to shut down and rehab for a while. I did some reaserch and this site was helpful.
http://shoulderpaininfo.com/shoulderImpingement.html
My son just informed me of a shoulder problem a couple days ago. He noticed it while playing summer laegue. Very mild pinch feeling in right front and side of shoulder. It goes away after a few warm up throws.
This is the 1st time that he has had a problem and blames it on poor workouts in summer ball. It is the 1st time he has ever not worked out all year. It is mainle a stiff feeling. I made him tell the trainer and he is on Anti inflamatory drugs and heat/cold compresses.
He has no loss of motion or any pain. I want him to get an MRI but the trainer feels it is a minor issue. Not sure I buy that. I have a call out to his doctor who deals with this on a regular basis.
Son didn't complain but mentioned it when I asked how his arm felt as I routinely do. No panic as far as I am concerned at this point but he may have to shut down and rehab for a while. I did some reaserch and this site was helpful.
http://shoulderpaininfo.com/shoulderImpingement.html
jbbaseball--playing may not make it worse, but by playing, your son risks another injury---which may sideline him for a longer period of time.
My son, also a middle infielder, tore his labrum at the beginning of the season in his junior year of high school. We didn't know that it was torn, only that it hurt. But because he didn't want to lose his starting shortstop position, he "played through the pain"...which developed into elbow tendinitis. And then he couldn't play. The doctor didn't want to do the surgery right away, but suggested that he rehab it; sometimes the rehab prevented surgery. But the way, the two MRI (a regular one and one with the contrast dye) were inconclusive, as they often are. The doctor, being an understanding White Sox team doctor, allowed him to stay in the game and allowed him to hit--as the eh or dh. After not playing for a while, he finally got his swing back, was hitting the ball very well and then oops--he got hit in the wrist, which broke both bones. Bummer. This delayed the shoulder rehab leading to the surgery, but it was finally done in mid September. The doctor promised that he would be ready to play in the spring.
Until the rehab in October was delayed because his wrist hurt and continued to be swollen. So off we go to the hand specialist, who very conservatively wanted to rehab what turned out to be torn cartilage (torn when the pitch broke his wrist bones) before considering surgery. Which was determined to be necessary in February--and it was performed on the morning of his high school try-outs in his senior year. Another bummer.
So although playing may not make his shoulder worse, it may keep him out longer with a more serious injury. Freaky as it may be.
Good luck with best wishes to your son. Feel free to pm me to talk about this....I really do feel your pain and dilemma.
My son, also a middle infielder, tore his labrum at the beginning of the season in his junior year of high school. We didn't know that it was torn, only that it hurt. But because he didn't want to lose his starting shortstop position, he "played through the pain"...which developed into elbow tendinitis. And then he couldn't play. The doctor didn't want to do the surgery right away, but suggested that he rehab it; sometimes the rehab prevented surgery. But the way, the two MRI (a regular one and one with the contrast dye) were inconclusive, as they often are. The doctor, being an understanding White Sox team doctor, allowed him to stay in the game and allowed him to hit--as the eh or dh. After not playing for a while, he finally got his swing back, was hitting the ball very well and then oops--he got hit in the wrist, which broke both bones. Bummer. This delayed the shoulder rehab leading to the surgery, but it was finally done in mid September. The doctor promised that he would be ready to play in the spring.
Until the rehab in October was delayed because his wrist hurt and continued to be swollen. So off we go to the hand specialist, who very conservatively wanted to rehab what turned out to be torn cartilage (torn when the pitch broke his wrist bones) before considering surgery. Which was determined to be necessary in February--and it was performed on the morning of his high school try-outs in his senior year. Another bummer.
So although playing may not make his shoulder worse, it may keep him out longer with a more serious injury. Freaky as it may be.
Good luck with best wishes to your son. Feel free to pm me to talk about this....I really do feel your pain and dilemma.
Where were all of you for my son in 2000 with a torn labrum? I only wish I knew about all of you. What great advise everyone has.
My son was a great athlete but unforturnally we were sent to a local surgeon who operated (twice on the right shoulder and once on the left throughout his HS years) and his baseball/football career was shot for any college hopes. He could still hit but throwing was out of the question.
My advise to anyone with a labrial tear, go to someone who will work with athletes. When we told the doctor that he was the HS quarterback and HS catcher at age 15 he laughed at us. What a hard lesson to learn about the right doctor
Please make sure you do not go to the first surgeon you see and also make sure he understands that your son still wants to throw the ball. When we asked that question he gave us a smirk and said "sure with his son someday".
We made a huge mistake and can't take it back. He was only 15 and never had a chance to play college ball. The good thing out of all of this though, he is now in Medical School and is saying he is going to be a orthopedic surgeon. Never to let this happen to any of his patients
My son was a great athlete but unforturnally we were sent to a local surgeon who operated (twice on the right shoulder and once on the left throughout his HS years) and his baseball/football career was shot for any college hopes. He could still hit but throwing was out of the question.
My advise to anyone with a labrial tear, go to someone who will work with athletes. When we told the doctor that he was the HS quarterback and HS catcher at age 15 he laughed at us. What a hard lesson to learn about the right doctor
Please make sure you do not go to the first surgeon you see and also make sure he understands that your son still wants to throw the ball. When we asked that question he gave us a smirk and said "sure with his son someday". We made a huge mistake and can't take it back. He was only 15 and never had a chance to play college ball. The good thing out of all of this though, he is now in Medical School and is saying he is going to be a orthopedic surgeon. Never to let this happen to any of his patients
quote:Originally posted by floridamom404:
Where were all of you for my son in 2000 with a torn labrum? I only wish I knew about all of you. What great advise everyone has.
My son was a great athlete but unforturnally we were sent to a local surgeon who operated (twice on the right shoulder and once on the left throughout his HS years) and his baseball/football career was shot for any college hopes. He could still hit but throwing was out of the question.
My advise to anyone with a labrial tear, go to someone who will work with athletes. When we told the doctor that he was the HS quarterback and HS catcher at age 15 he laughed at us. What a hard lesson to learn about the right doctor
We made a huge mistake and can't take it back. He was only 15 and never had a chance to play college ball. The good thing out of all of this though, he is now in Medical School and is saying he is going to be a orthopedic surgeon. Never to let this happen to any of his patients
We all would appreciate it if you could tell us the name of the surgeon. Not to berate the surgeon but to understand what his qualifications are/were. Perhaps he is much more experienced with these type of things now. Some orthopeadic docs will talk of wear and tear damage in a shoulder for example but mention nothing specific and say wow, he shouldn't be throwing.
I was reading on another site about two pitchers who were top recruits out of high school in 2006. Both had shoulder surgery before they even threw a pitch in college. From the post I read, one is going to miss his second year of college baseball trying to recover and the other is no longer playing.
Last weekend I was talking with a 3rd year medical student who intends to specialize in Sports Medicine.
He is doing experiments on shoulder function/repair using animal models.
His view is the shoulder is, perhaps, the single most complicated joint for medical repair. Even more so when you put it through the rigors of playing baseball at a highly competitive level.
I make this post because we often hear about the successes of TJ surgery. We tend not to hear as much about the results with shoulders. That is because there aren't nearly as many successes.
For anyone who's son is diagnosed with labral, rotator cuff or other shoulder conditions, including something as "simple" as bursitis, it is important to realize there really isn't anything simple about the shoulder and how it needs to function to play baseball.
For any parent or player, finding the best is my best recommendation. The measure of the best isn't how many times they have done the procedure, it isn't if they are a "team" doctor, it is how many times have they done it on someone who plays baseball, and the player was able to recover and resume playing.
Last weekend I was talking with a 3rd year medical student who intends to specialize in Sports Medicine.
He is doing experiments on shoulder function/repair using animal models.
His view is the shoulder is, perhaps, the single most complicated joint for medical repair. Even more so when you put it through the rigors of playing baseball at a highly competitive level.
I make this post because we often hear about the successes of TJ surgery. We tend not to hear as much about the results with shoulders. That is because there aren't nearly as many successes.
For anyone who's son is diagnosed with labral, rotator cuff or other shoulder conditions, including something as "simple" as bursitis, it is important to realize there really isn't anything simple about the shoulder and how it needs to function to play baseball.
For any parent or player, finding the best is my best recommendation. The measure of the best isn't how many times they have done the procedure, it isn't if they are a "team" doctor, it is how many times have they done it on someone who plays baseball, and the player was able to recover and resume playing.
I honestly don't see how a torn labrum could heal itself without surgical help. At least a badly torn one. My son is 6 weeks out from surgery with tears in the front and in the back. Seeing the video of his surgery, with the labrum "flapping in the breeze" so to speak, I can't see how anything short of what they did would fix that.
He was hurt in the third game of football season and had his shoulder dislocate 3 to 4 times each and every game for the remainder of the season. Crazy kid didn't want to let his teammates down! Luckily it was his left shoulder and he is a righty, so we are now just working the strength back into that arm, in preparation of getting him back on the mound, and able to lift his arm safely to catch a ball.
He had the contrast MRI and both tears were evident, I don't think there were any surprises when they got in there. They put anchors into the two tears and tightened him back up. The doc tried to pop it out at his 6 wk check up Monday and I thought the kid was going to come up off the table swinging it hurt so badly.....but doc was happy that it was nice and tight. BTW you can check out Youtube for videos posted of torn labrum repairs and you can see exactly what you will be getting with surgery.
Best of luck to all having to deal with this. We would have rather not forked out the money and time, not to mention the discomfort to him by having to do the surgery, but there was simply no choice in the matter. He was broken and he had to be put back together. Scary thing about it all, is that he is planning on playing football again next fall!
If only I had that crystal ball to know if that is going to be a horrible idea or not. Makes me sick at my stomach to think about....going to go throw up now!
He was hurt in the third game of football season and had his shoulder dislocate 3 to 4 times each and every game for the remainder of the season. Crazy kid didn't want to let his teammates down! Luckily it was his left shoulder and he is a righty, so we are now just working the strength back into that arm, in preparation of getting him back on the mound, and able to lift his arm safely to catch a ball.
He had the contrast MRI and both tears were evident, I don't think there were any surprises when they got in there. They put anchors into the two tears and tightened him back up. The doc tried to pop it out at his 6 wk check up Monday and I thought the kid was going to come up off the table swinging it hurt so badly.....but doc was happy that it was nice and tight. BTW you can check out Youtube for videos posted of torn labrum repairs and you can see exactly what you will be getting with surgery.
Best of luck to all having to deal with this. We would have rather not forked out the money and time, not to mention the discomfort to him by having to do the surgery, but there was simply no choice in the matter. He was broken and he had to be put back together. Scary thing about it all, is that he is planning on playing football again next fall!
If only I had that crystal ball to know if that is going to be a horrible idea or not. Makes me sick at my stomach to think about....going to go throw up now!quote:We would have rather not forked out the money and time, not to mention the discomfort to him by having to do the surgery, but there was simply no choice in the matter.
Although the monetary cost of the surgery and the subsequent lengthy rehab can be great, in my experience it pales in comparison to the pain that you son has--not just the physical pain, but the emotional pain, too. The emotional pain can be just as great as the physical pain. Let's face it, there is no "good" time for surgery, and sometimes it must take place at absolutely the worst time for your son. There isn't much more pain for a parent to endure than to witness the incredible pain of your child.
My heart goes out to anyone who has to endure this...along with prayers.
You are so right about that! He is sitting out his first varsity season, and (((may))) have a chance to come in during the last couple of weeks. He goes to every practice, workout, and game and watches his teammates play baseball. Not only is that torture to have to watch, and not participate, but it is just plain boring watching other people take batting practice for 3 hours at a pop. He is doing his best to keep a good attitude and support his teammates, but it is difficult, especially for a 15 year old who just wants to play!
On a good note, he had a great therapy session yesterday....the second hard core one. His therapist was very psyched at how loose his arm had gotten with just a couple of days out of the sling and working it out. He can lift it a little bit over his head without too-too much effort. At this rate I totally foresee him being ready in 6 more weeks to get out on the field. He should start to throw bullpen in 3-4 weeks, so the throwing arm should be back up to speed as well as the recovering glove hand. Now we just hope that the doc agrees that he is ready!
A good surgeon is very important, but equally if not more important is finding a PT guy or gal who knows what they are doing and works regularly with athletes. We are very lucky to have both!
On a good note, he had a great therapy session yesterday....the second hard core one. His therapist was very psyched at how loose his arm had gotten with just a couple of days out of the sling and working it out. He can lift it a little bit over his head without too-too much effort. At this rate I totally foresee him being ready in 6 more weeks to get out on the field. He should start to throw bullpen in 3-4 weeks, so the throwing arm should be back up to speed as well as the recovering glove hand. Now we just hope that the doc agrees that he is ready!
A good surgeon is very important, but equally if not more important is finding a PT guy or gal who knows what they are doing and works regularly with athletes. We are very lucky to have both!
Everyone bemoans the injury to the young HS player but in fact it can be beneficial--better it happens when the player is not fully into his hs/college career and the remedy to the injury may make him stronger and better
Look at the glass a half full
Look at the glass a half full
If this were a discussion about TJ, surgery, it would be fine to comment on coming back stronger and better.
However, I don't feel that is at all correct when it comes to shoulders with labral and/or rotator cuff surgery.
For shoulders, the post surgery recovery is tedious, lengthy, and, unfortunately, very unpredictable. It is so unpredictable, especially for pitchers, that you love to hear the stories of those who succeed.
Most of us don't hear the stories of those who are not able to get back and be able to have a shoulder that withstands the rigors of high school, college and professional baseball. For shoulder surgery, that is much more common even with great post surgical PT and player dedication that is remarkable.
When it comes to shoulders and surgery, the results cannot be equated with TJ, when predicting the future.
However, I don't feel that is at all correct when it comes to shoulders with labral and/or rotator cuff surgery.
For shoulders, the post surgery recovery is tedious, lengthy, and, unfortunately, very unpredictable. It is so unpredictable, especially for pitchers, that you love to hear the stories of those who succeed.
Most of us don't hear the stories of those who are not able to get back and be able to have a shoulder that withstands the rigors of high school, college and professional baseball. For shoulder surgery, that is much more common even with great post surgical PT and player dedication that is remarkable.
When it comes to shoulders and surgery, the results cannot be equated with TJ, when predicting the future.
Again, in our particular case we are lucky so-to-speak that it was his left shoulder injured and he is a RHP. No guarantees in anything, all we can do is work real hard and hope and pray for the best.
if you are lifting weight (curling) and monsterous pain hits your forearm and then thereafter the pain from the elbow (lateral epicondyle) to top of forearm muscle is in pain and hard to straighten out for weeks on end. Will this heal naturally or will it require surgury to reattach the muscle/ligament/tendon back onto the outside elbow bone? just curious?
for example, if the elbow (bone - outside) hits a door jam while walking through and you feel immediate pain, this is another example of the pain involved. Hard to lift using the injured arm. Pushing on something produces no pain at all. But pulling something back up with palms down (not up) produces major forearm pain.
for example, if the elbow (bone - outside) hits a door jam while walking through and you feel immediate pain, this is another example of the pain involved. Hard to lift using the injured arm. Pushing on something produces no pain at all. But pulling something back up with palms down (not up) produces major forearm pain.