Size Matter's!

My thoughts are that if your nephew is able to throw strikes and get batters out at the college level he is seeking to play at, height makes no difference.

Welcome!

A DI coach who was attending a July showcase event my son pitched at said, after seeing him pitch wonderfully, "If that kid was just a little bigger, I'd offer him right now." My son was 6' 153 pounds. Didn't matter he was throwing 84-87 with great stuff that day (and a little tired out from pitching at a camp just two days prior). Size was all that mattered to that particular coach. It's the Johnny Bravo syndrome. Ya gotta fit the suit!

Krakatoa,

going to get the book thanks. let you know what i think .

My son was same size. LHP etc same pitching speed. I imagine you go to camps and showcases and he is dominant but they show no interest. You either have or will get bombarded by D3 schools with coaches calling etc. Mine said I think I am good enough to play D1 so he walked on at a D1 school. He made the walk on cut (they chose 2). He worked out with the team for 2 months and pitched and did very well. Had a low ERA, was respected by the coaches and the team. Last day of Fall practice was cut with the other walk on. Coach said yes you can definately play at the D1 level we just don't have a roster spot. Now he says I know without a doubt, I can pitch at the D1 level. I don't know what the next move is. Coaches find that 6.5 speed very attractive in a CF. You might try selling that more. You see short OF's way more often than short pitchers. If your a pitcher they prefer tall because they have a theory that a short pitcher is a Max effort pitcher and tends to get hurt. Check rosters, it appears the 5'10 players are usually a 2nd, SS or CF. Since your Left handed go with the CF. Sell the speed to get the roster slot, then show them you can pitch. If his grades and test scores are good D3 might be a good fit. Yes size matters, I remember my son hitting a ball off the outfield wall at a big showcase. He said as he ran down the baseline he heard a coach from a Major school say man that kid can hit...but he is small. Now, ever wonder why there are steroids in baseball? Are the players being judged correctly?

We've just had an exhaustive size discussion in the Golden Threads forum called What are my Chances?

I'll reiterate what PG has said and that is that size does not matter if you can play. My son's D1 roster has at least two freshman pitchers this year who are listed at 5-10 and 150lbs. Both of these kids can throw it in the low 90's however and one is a left hander. From your numbers listed, 84-85 will not qualify at many D1 schools but may be OK for some since he is a LHP. If he were bigger, they might project him to be an upper 80's guys in a year or two. Thus for pitching, he just may not have been exposed to enough schools or he needs to lower his sights.

His numbers for a position player are intriguing. Size does not matter in this area for a speedy outfielder with those numbers and obviously a strong throwing arm. Again, the issue may be an exposure issue to the right program. For instance, maybe a school like Fresno State is looking for power hitters and your nephew does not match that profile. I would tell him not to use size as an excuse and to get himself in front of as many coaches as possible.

fanofgame - I don't think the D1 coach is just being polite. If he's answering emails, he has some interest. Who knows how much? But there's something there. But you're wise to listen carefully to the D3 coach.

Size matters? There was a very good HS pitcher in our area about 6 years ago. Solid 90+ guy, RHP. Lots of press, lots of hype, lots of HS success. He was small (around 5'-10" from my memory). I didn't see why it mattered and maybe it shouldn't have. He signed with a mid-D1 which surprised me because I would have thought based on velocity and performance he would've signed with a top-25 D1.

In college he barely ever pitched. Don't really know why? I heard he may have been injured?

I asked a scout that I knew why he wasn't drafted? Size. In effect the scout said, 'yeah, I liked him a lot but history tells me that the risk of him breaking down based on his size is too high for me to take a chance.'

Poppeycock? I don't know, I really don't. But its anectdotal evidence that size counts to some.

There's also projection. A coach or scout will feel there's more upside to a bigger kid. Some of that depends on position. More important for a pitcher, less important for a middle infielder. But the evaluators are still trying to 'project' headroom (no pun intended) for future improvement (velocity, power, etc...).

I agree with PGStaff that it won't ultimately matter if you can play. I once asked if today's "system" for identifying talent would miss Joe Morgan. PG responded, no, they wouldn't miss him...but he might not be drafted as high as his talent ultimately proved he should have been.

In the end, it won't matter, but it may affect a few things early in the game.

But back to the original poster...your nephew is an LHP. Rules are different for LHPs. Rules-of-thumb about velocity and size are different. Sounds like your nephew is pretty good. Make sure his colleges of interest have his upcoming HS schedule and make sure he stays in contact with them. Everyone looks for good LHPs...sounds like he has a pretty good chance of getting 'there.'

quote:

Originally posted by Baller26:
My son was same size. LHP etc same pitching speed. I imagine you go to camps and showcases and he is dominant but they show no interest. You either have or will get bombarded by D3 schools with coaches calling etc. Mine said I think I am good enough to play D1 so he walked on at a D1 school. He made the walk on cut (they chose 2). He worked out with the team for 2 months and pitched and did very well. Had a low ERA, was respected by the coaches and the team. Last day of Fall practice was cut with the other walk on. Coach said yes you can definately play at the D1 level we just don't have a roster spot. Now he says I know without a doubt, I can pitch at the D1 level. I don't know what the next move is. Coaches find that 6.5 speed very attractive in a CF. You might try selling that more. You see short OF's way more often than short pitchers. If your a pitcher they prefer tall because they have a theory that a short pitcher is a Max effort pitcher and tends to get hurt. Check rosters, it appears the 5'10 players are usually a 2nd, SS or CF. Since your Left handed go with the CF. Sell the speed to get the roster slot, then show them you can pitch. If his grades and test scores are good D3 might be a good fit. Yes size matters, I remember my son hitting a ball off the outfield wall at a big showcase. He said as he ran down the baseline he heard a coach from a Major school say man that kid can hit...but he is small. Now, ever wonder why there are steroids in baseball? Are the players being judged correctly?

Good story but, your son took a chance and was cut. If the coach really wanted your son, he would have had a spot, that's the way I see it and your story shows the dangers of walking onto a program with no commitment. Regardless of whether he can keep up with D1 players, it was practice, and some seem to fail to realize, practice is practice. My son dominated each fall in practice, struggled at the beginning of each season in real game situations.
If your son had taken the opportunity at D3 where they really wanted him, he would now have a spot on the roster for spring. He could have used that opportunity for valuable playing time now lost, to later try to head to a D1.

All players need to use their strengths for a roster spot. Many players who are position players get the opportunity to pitch. Not many players who cannot pitch on that level get other opportunities. If the coach has given you money as a pitcher and you don't get teh job done, he needs to replace you with another pitcher, because it's about economics also.

There is good discussion on this in the golden threads, I am so tired of the lack of size means lack of opportunities. If you have the ability in the programs you seek to play at, you will find a place to play. Unfortunetly for many, when their choices (not the coaches) fails to come through, it's about size.

The original thread is about size matters, for many coaches it does. Some it doesn't. Our ace for a number of years was the smallest pitcher on the team (under 6 feet). What matters is where you have been and who has seen you and your ability and personally, IMO, it's not about trying out and making a scout team, making first or second all star teams, etc.

Justbaseball brings up some good points but projecting for college coaches may or may not come into their recruiting. Some college coaches will take a player because he needs one the following year and doesn't have time to wait for him to grow or become bigger. Others have differenet plans in mind, taking a player who has the ability but will be even better in 2-3 years because he doesn't have the need for him to play full time the next year. He has to recruit according to his budget also, most coaches don't have money to have a player ready to play in 3-4 years at his program.

You all have to stop guessing what a scout or coach is looking for. Listen to the people who have faith in you and their offer in excahnge for what you have to offer them at recruitment time. Your players will be so much happier in the end, and that is what it is all about, being happy.

Ask yourself why does the D3 school want your son? Are they giving money? Or are they trying to fill a seat that is vacant? Many D3's are 10K-20K more expensive. For us the added price tag was not worth it. I am not rich and not poor. But a 10K-20K premium per year just so he could play wasn't worth it. Would it be worth that much to you? And yes his GPA was above a 3.0. Where we live a public university is 18-20K a year. A D3 generally runs 28K-45K a year. And yes we looked into them.

quote:

Originally posted by Baller26:
Ask yourself why does the D3 school want your son? Are they giving money? Or are they trying to fill a seat that is vacant? Many D3's are 10K-20K more expensive. For us the added price tag was not worth it. I am not rich and not poor. But a 10K-20K premium per year just so he could play wasn't worth it. Would it be worth that much to you? And yes his GPA was above a 3.0. Where we live a public university is 18-20K a year. A D3 generally runs 28K-45K a year. And yes we looked into them.

No it wouldn't have been worth it to me if it was all about baseball and no additional way to fund his college education at that price. But, I would spend that much it it was totally about the type of degree that he was seeking. If it was more about going to play baseball, he'd head off to the nearest JUCO just for playing time if it was within reason to see where he fit in down the road.

You didn't indicate that in your post but appreciate your response.

Some times I wonder when a coach says player has to get "bigger" if he doesn't mean more mature
A 5'11" position player is big enough but there is a huge diffence between a 5"11" boy and a 5'11" man.

50YOBBB,

Size does matter, but like JBB indicated LHP’s have different rules and if they are effective then they are given extra consideration if the coaches believe they can be effective and project them to progress.

If he is a pitcher only, then his batting average and foot speed have little consideration to many programs especially if they do not put a lot of efforts toward two way players. Good stats don’t really help players since there are so many variables such as who they play. Bad stats can hurt, like playing in a weak league and having something like a 2-6 win loss record and a high era against what would be considered fairly weak schools.

Since you indicated your nephew played on a strong West Coast program, that should have given him the exposure for coaches to be able to see him, were other players from the team picked up by D1 schools, or did it not have any exposure to college coaches?

What is the West Coast program doing for your nephew or what is your nephew doing to market himself the right program that would consider his ability?

The scout team should have also given him additional exposure that many don’t have, that should have given him an advantage for coaches to evaluate his skills.

A few weeks ago, I was chatting with the head coach of a very good h.s. team in Texas. He told me colleges were always calling him about his catcher, wanting to know more information about him. (BTW, the catcher received a "9" PG rating and is about to publicly announce his verbal commitment to a very good program, so he definitely is an outstanding player.) The coach said after answering questions about the catcher, he repeatedly tells various colleges, "Now, let me tell you about my best player." He said the colleges always sound very interested until he tells them the player's size -- about 5'8." The coach said it never fails -- their interest always trails off after that. The coach commented to me, "I tell them, 'If he doesn't join your team, he'll beat your team,' but no one has made him an offer yet."

quote:

Some times I wonder when a coach says player has to get "bigger" if he doesn't mean more mature
A 5'11" position player is big enough but there is a huge diffence between a 5"11" boy and a 5'11" man.

njbb, I think you're right on the money with that remark.

I think people would be amazed at how much money is available at some of the small colleges around the country. There are many good student/athletes going to nonscholarship schools for very little money.

Many if not most small colleges have grants available for a number of different things. The person who wants to study such and such and is a resident of a certain state. Institutional grants and awards can be fairly large at times. Also this is an area where academic money can be substantial.

So just because a college doesn't offer athletic scholarships doesn't mean there is no money available. It's odd how many of the stronger DIIIs and NAIA can find money for the player they really want.

PG

You are so right

I have seen D-III programs come up with a larger financial package than a competing Division I school. Problem is that many parents want to be able to say that their son is on a baseball scholarship

Hi, everyone I am new to all of this but i believe that size don't matter. I know a kid 6'3 225 Lhp went to a pg showcase this past summer he top out at 84mph and got rated at 8.5. Right now no offers from any DI schools. went to a small school camp and top out at 92mph still no offer.so there you go its just life Oh great kid.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
... Problem is that many parents want to be able to say that their son is on a baseball scholarship

Havent posted in some time... Tr is on target many times and sometimes I like to Joust with him.

Your above quote may be acurate for some parents but I think it might be the vocals ones but definitely not the majority. Many parents support and encourage their kids dreams, and if its to play ball at a big school and the opportunity is there great. One thing that I bring up in these conversations is that there can be many off field advantages to a bigger program. (THIS IS NOT A KNOCK ON SMALLER SCHOOLS OR COMPETITION ETC...)

The financial support for the team, the academic assistance, training, and coaching can be enhanced. There is also the attraction of school size, personal ego, Saturday Football Games with 50K + fans etc... as well as playing in front of good crowds and playing on TV etc... Some of it may be valid, some may not, but when someone asks about scholarship I defer the conversation or educate them on how baseball players are not 100% scholarship like Womens Softball!

paballplayer,

Welcome aboard HSBBW! But with all due respect.. a 6'3" LHP who throws 92 with no offers??!! I find that hard to believe. It sounds like he better go back to another PG showcase and right quick. If he's an '08 grad, there's the Pitcher/Catcher Indoor showcase coming up in February.

Size does matter to some coaches, but it should not matter to the player. He cannot change who he is. He can only press on.

quote:

Originally posted by paballplayer:
Hi, everyone I am new to all of this but i believe that size don't matter. I know a kid 6'3 225 Lhp went to a pg showcase this past summer he top out at 84mph and got rated at 8.5. Right now no offers from any DI schools. went to a small school camp and top out at 92mph still no offer.so there you go its just life Oh great kid.

Welcome, first I hope that the kid doesn't write like you, that would be the main reason right there why he has no D1 interest.
Also, he attends a PG event tops OUT at 84 this summer then 92 in the fall. No way.

.
Both of mine are VERY tall...One a LHP...one bats left...

....I am simply THRILLED to hear once again that mine will receiving a fistfull of "free passes"! Thank you! Thank you! Thank You! The universe be praised! May your camels shed all their fleas!

But I need help....

...I don't mean to be rude, but could you please tell me when this might occur? Given your sentiments I promised these passes to my sons a long, long time ago, and I have yet to hear from anyone. Can you believe that both are in college now and no coach, recruiter, or scout has "rolled over" for height or handedness yet?

Now, I don't mean to whine, but mine continue to lose out to players who are faster, or have developed ealier, or throw harder, or are more agile, or have better body types, or whose fathers played pro ball, or who have better genes. Don't they understand that mine get free passes? I tell my son's that there passes are coming but I have yet to see them, and I am beginning to lose my fatherly credability. Maybe someone could call the coaches, scouts or recruiters and remind them?

Or do we have to apply? If so, where is the application? Leftylargesse.com? Southpawsubsidy.net? Hugehardball.org? Is there a deadline?

Please let us know if you have any information or suggestions.

In the meantime, while awaiting those "free passes" mine will continue to work hard and grind out a little success one day at a time as they have always done with the packages that they have been given...the good, the bad, and the ugly. They will foolishly continue to believe that passion, dedication, work ethic, attitude, and effort applied on a daily basis will do more for them than the "Free passes" you will soon be providing.

Yours truly,

44

.

44

paballplayer,

If that is true about the pitcher, please do us a favor and even more importantly, do him a favor, and tell us who he is.

O44,

You mean to tell us that even tall kids have to work hard and can be overlooked?

This proves agains that ob44 is in fact one of the best writers/thinkers we have here on the hsbbweb

Classic post both in the humorus sarcasim and for this part as well:

quote:

In the meantime, while awaiting those "free passes" mine will continue to work hard and grind out a little success one day at a time as they have always done with the packages that they have been given...the good, the bad, and the ugly. They will foolishly continue to believe that passion, dedication, work ethic, attitude, and effort applied on a daily basis will do more for them than the "Free passes" you will soon be providing.

44,
Great post!

O44, I am dog sick with a virus today, but your post managed to put a big smile on my face. Thanks for the humorous pick-me-up!

044 your post reminds me of how you can tell someone they are full of **** and a complete idiot and they turn around and shake your hand and thank you for they have no clue what just happened, well done

As most may know my son is 5'9 160 and is always fighting the napoleon syndrome, that he is to short to compete and not tall enough to pitch. However Ryan constantly leads his teams in hitting, Stolen bases and scores alot of runs. Then when he takes the mound he shuts the other teams down mixing speeds,FB tops out at 83 yet he throws a 71-76 12-6 curve and a circle change that keeps batters of balance. And rarely gives up many runs. Why because he works hard at every phase of the game. I have always stressed to Ryan that he must always work harder than anyone else because it is on the field where you will gain the respect as a player and not standing next to someone. I'm very proud of my son and those who have watched him and know him speak very highly of him as a player and a person. Never use the excuse that your size is preventing you from competing if you have talent and work hard good things will happen.

Hi again everyone…I’m the original poster. I’ve had fun reading all the interesting feed back and mostly good valid points (with one exception; 6’3”/225/LHP/92 mph/no interest...hmmmmm?). I expected the rah, rah stories; the small kid who made it, follow the dream, talent will prevail stuff. Of course there are exceptions; S.F. Giants Rookie Tim Lincecum & many other smaller pro & college players.

However, baseball demographics speak form themselves. I could go on & on with numbers, I’ll leave it at this: Take a look at D1 roster’s; over 90% of pitchers, including incoming freshmen who’ve signed NLI’s, are 6’+ (even DII rosters for that matter, I don’t recall DII power Chico St having any pitcher under 6’). I think you’d all agree it’s unlikely 90% of good high school pitchers are all over 6’. (BTW-I’m especially talking Pitchers here & focusing on W. Coast programs cause it’s home.)

The bottom line is the smaller player has to work extra hard, be extra successful, to get that extra look.

Fresno State Baseball has followed-up with the family. Regardless of the FSU out come, there will be happy ending because my nephew will be playing baseball & getting an education somewhere (DII, DIII, JUCO ?)next year…..and that’s plenty to happy for!

If your nephew does secure a position at any school for pitching and under 6 foot, well than you have proven size does NOT always matter.

My son's a pitcher at a Big 12 school. He is listed as 5'11"-good thing somebody forgot to tell his coaches he's too short to pitch for them

If using a point of reference, might as well look at the top! Two time defending National NCAA DI Champs (Oregon State)

2006 Roster (National Champs)
11 players 5'11 or under
9 players 6'0 tall
8 players 6'1
3 players 6'2
10 players over 6'2
Total 20 players 6-0 or under
Total 21 players 6-1 or taller

2007 Roster (National Champs)
10 players 5'11 or under
10 players 6-0 tall
4 players 6'1
7 players 6-2
11 players over 6'2
Total 20 players 6-0 or under
Total 22 players 6-1 or taller

This year (2008) roster
11 players 5'11 or under
8 players 6'0 tall
4 players 6'1
10 players 6'2
10 players over 6'2
Total 19 players 6-0 or under
Total 24 players 6-1 or taller
Obviously they will be cutting down the roster

An argument could be made that this as high as it goes at the DI level. At least in recent years. Everyone can draw their own conclusion to what the numbers mean.

Very good stats PGStaff. Now maybe we should try to have a correlation between that information and the success of the program. Then we might find that size doesn't actually have anything to do with actual on field performance. It might be interesting to see if top programs are more open minded and that relates to success on the field. Obviously Oregon State looked past the size and found players instead of projectable frames. That truly would be an interesting study and very valuable. I imagine you have the data. Kind of does size matter in recruiting versus does size matter in on field performance.

My son's team finished in the top 20 or higher in all the polls last year and are ranked again this year (their lowest ranking this year is #44 by pgcrosschecker btw - a marked improvement over the #93 they received coming into last year

Here is their breakdown:

18 - 6-0 or under (includes an All-American outfielder under 5-10)
5 - 6-0 (includes an All-American right-handed pitcher)
17 - 6-1 or higher (includes an All-American outfielder at 6-1).

One of their infield signees is 5-10 and throws in the 90's from the mound. He was ranked a 10.0 by PG.

Look, if you are under six feet and play first base, your chances of playing at the D1 level are probably very small. If you are a decent catcher, infielder or outfielder with speed, there are many D1 opportunities. Pitchers who can get guys out can pitch at D1 and in the pros - you just may have to look/work a little harder for your opportunities.
I believe Joey Devine was drafted in the first round and he is 5-10. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

PG,
Good work to support my theory.


Clemson 2006 Roster ACC championship,Super Regional winners
35 rostered players
12 under 6 foot (3 out of 17 pitchers under 6')

Clemson 2007 Roster Super Reginal winners
32 rostered players
13 under 6 foot (5 0f 15 pitchers under 6')

Clemson 2008 Roster
31 rostered players
10 under 6 foot

Florida mid D1 2007 roster
29 rostered players
7 under 6 foot

2008 roster
34 rostered players
6 under 6 feet

Player's ability, coaching make a difference. JMO.

Maybe someone will tell the decision makers that height and strength aren't synonomous terms.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/players/

In my son's case, I don't think it was his height so much as his weight. When the DI coach said what he said (see prior post), my son weighed 153 pounds and that was spread over 6'. Very thin looking.

Happily, he's the top pitching recruit at two D-3 schools. These coaches did a little more divination....the baby face, the thinness, the underlying frame which will be able to support much more weight, the broad shoulders, etc. And both have said he is headed for big things by the time he's done. This is all we can ask for from a kid who is now at 165 pounds having been in the gym since September....and throwing harder and nastier than ever.

I certainly don't hold it against the DI coach for what he said. I probably would've said the same thing. And I believe all things happen for a reason....now we're just waiting for final decisions.

Smaller, skinnier, younger, etc......work WITH it, not against it. If you're GOOD, you can find a place to play college baseball in this great country of ours!

Krak,
I think that what you have said has to do with how an individual coach feels in the recruiting and what he is looking for, in that particular time. If he wants a player that can make an impact asap, he's not going to recruit one who needs to take the
time to develop physically. From my own players experience, being tall and pretty lanky and not at the weight he needed to be until his sophmore year, it takes a while to build up the stamina, patience and knowledge to even pitch 5 complete innings in the college game.

Some also use for it as an excuse.

IMO, it's much better for a player if a D1 coach doesn't sign a player for those reasons. That just only puts the player behind developmental wise by not playing. Not too many coaches have the fortune these days with roster limits to reshirt too many players. Years ago, you got an offer and then a redshirt with plenty to spare and most players are not happy with that.

JMO.

Be careful about those listed heights. A couple players we know have had sudden growth spurts long after they seemed to have stopped growing according to their college bios. Who me cynical?

Mine will be doing a showcase soon. This time of the evening he'll have shrunk from 6'1 7/8" to 6'1 3/8". Should we list him at 6'10" or 6'11"? Do you think any of the scouts would notice?

OK, I admit it I fudged and listed him at 6'2". I'm sorry.

quote:

Originally posted by Krakatoa:
Happily, he's the top pitching recruit at two D-3 schools.

Atta boy, T!