Size Matter's!

TPM, I will try to use correct grammar, just for you. Oh, and by the way, it was 91 mph, not 92. Sorry.

To the rest of the posters, it was my understanding that the thread was regarding size. I apologize if I confused anyone with what I was saying.

I don't think size matters. This kid is pretty big, plus he made all-district and super team in his area. He only received one offer from a JC and is now planning to throw this weekend for a couple of D1 schools.

Old Slugger,

Thanks, That is one of the better links I’ve seen for player info. You can copy and paste into Excel and sort by any category including height.

Didn’t have the time to do all positions but found it surprising that there were 135 MLB pitchers listed at 6’0 or under. More than 100 others were listed at 6’1.

Of course there were about 700 pitchers listed, so it does show that the majority of MLB pitchers are 6’2 or taller. Just not the percentages that we might have thought.

I’m pretty sure that doing the same thing with position players will show an even higher percentage of players 6’0 and under. Guess it all goes to show that size does matter, but talent matters even more!

I think even the most diehard proponents of finesse pitching will still admit that velocity is an important requirement in “most” cases.

So if a 5’10 pitcher throws 86 mph and a 6’4 pitcher throws 94 mph, the 6’4 pitcher will be valued higher. However if the 5’10 guy throws 94 and the 6’4 guy throws 86 the 5’10 guy is more valuable. Understood that there are many other things to consider, just trying to find something simple to relate to. The player/pitcher with the most talent, nearly always gets the most interest.

In many cases the taller bigger pitcher has an advantage when it comes to velocity. Could in some ways compare to basketball… The taller player is closer to the rim unless the shorter player can out jump him by a long ways.

The bottom line is the odds are greatly against playing DI baseball let alone play in the Major Leagues no matter what size a player is. Talent will always be the number one ingredient. It’s not like they choose a bunch of big guys who don’t have any talent.

Often we use words like "everything being equal". Truth is things are never equal. One player will always be more valuable than another. The problem is in figuring out which one is better than the other and then have everyone agree on that. That is where size is sometimes a consideration.

[quote:
So if a 5’10 pitcher throws 86 mph and a 6’4 pitcher throws 94 mph, the 6’4 pitcher will be valued higher. However if the 5’10 guy throws 94 and the 6’4 guy throws 86 the 5’10 guy is more valuable. Understood that there are many other things to consider, just trying to find something simple to relate to. The player/pitcher with the most talent, nearly always gets the most interest. quote]

I like this analogy; it maks sense....nice. However, two 5'10" pitchers of otherwise comparable talent both throw 86 mph; guess who gets the attention 'almost' ever time?? Of this I'm 99% certain. Size does matter.

PGStaff, you probably have more access than anyone here. Simple question, If 2 pitchers, that throw the same mechanics show up at your showcase. One is 6'3, one 5'10 (avg size of the American male), both LHP say throwing 87, all things equal other than size, would they both come out with the same grade on the PG scale? Can a below 6'0 player make it D1 - yes no doubt.

quote: ooops mistake....
So if a 5’10 pitcher throws 86 mph and a 6’4 pitcher throws 94 mph, the 6’4 pitcher will be valued higher. However if the 5’10 guy throws 94 and the 6’4 guy throws 86 the 5’10 guy is more valuable. Understood that there are many other things to consider, just trying to find something simple to relate to. The player/pitcher with the most talent, nearly always gets the most interest. quote]

Corrected....

I like this analogy; it maks sense....nice. However, 5'10" & 6'4" pitchers of otherwise comparable talent both throw 86 mph; guess who gets the attention 'almost' ever time?? Of this I'm 99% certain. Size does matter.[/quote]

I know what you guys are getting at and you bring up good points IMO

50YOBBB,

It is difficult to argue against something like “Size Does Matter”! Of course it matters! Of that I’m 100% certain!

Sometimes it can even work against those who are 6'5 or taller or real big and strong. Who has the advantage the 5'9 shortstop or the 6'6 shortstop? The 175 lb CF or the 260 lb CF? It could be said that in some cases "Lack of size matters".

Anyway back to pitching and your question. I can only speak for what I believe. Note: I am often wrong!

You asked...
Two 5’10 pitchers both throwing 86 mph with comparable talent… Who gets the attention? Guess I would say it could be one or the other or both, being I don’t know what exists in that comparable talent.

Neither, for the time being, would be overly interesting to MLB scouts. Depending on the talent they could both be very interesting to college recruiters. It is possible that one projects more than the other also.

Let me add... One of the most highly regarded high level DI recruiting prizes is the 6'0 and under RHP throwing 88-92 mph. These guys are extremely valuable because they are more likely to end up in college. BTW, there are a quite a few of these types out there.

Baller26,

This goes along with what 50YOBBB is saying.

In nearly every case (all things being equal) the 6’3 guy would probably grade out a bit higher based on possibly having a higher ceiling. But remember it is my opinion that things are never equal. Both could be good prospects and the 5’10 guy could end up being much better.

I think most people know that size is a desirable trait. I just think it is way over blown for some reason. I don’t think that over blown importance is coming from parents or kids who are tall.

Once more… Talent trumps Size… In every instance!

The odds of reaching the top are stacked against players of every size. To be at the top you have to be better than the rest no matter how big you might be. Yes, size is one of the many things that matters!

50YOBBB,

Guess I relpied while you were making a correction. We are pretty much on the same page.

quote:

Once more… Talent trumps Size… In every instance!

Surely we can all agree that size matters in the NFL - right?

I was struck by the impact that two of the smallest players have on the fortunes of the New England Patriots. Wes Welker and Kevin Faulk must be all of 5-8 but each play significant roles helping that team win. Sometimes a player just needs to find the right system. That might mean persevering though some adversity and never giving up on oneself. They said Welker was an undrafted free agent who was then realeased, signed by Miami, and then New England traded for him. LaDanian Tomlinson does not look all that big to me either. I think back to another era and Steve Largent was neither big nor fast yet he is a hall of famer. How do these people manage these things if size is the controlling factor?

A running back's height is irrelevant. What matters is the power in his legs, balance, speed and quickness. Being a short wide reciever is beating the odds unless the guy is a burner. Steve Largent was not that small for his era. He also had phenomenal hands and ran precise routes.

Football players have exploded in size. I remember when John Mackey was a HUGE tight end at 6'3", 220. Now that's a QB or running back. Merlin Olsen played defensive tackle at 270. Now DT's weigh 325-375.

My son has a teammate who stands 5-11 maybe 160 pounds in his uniform, who is a wizard on the mound. He is draft eligible this year and been contacted by nearly every team. He cruises from 91-94 and touches higher. His size, or lack of, doesn't appear to have affected his ability to play, so far.

He struck out 112 in 83 innings, but size probably had little to do with it. Maybe if he was smaller he might not be as good.

Danny

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quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Sometimes it can even work against those who are 6'5 or taller or real big and strong. Who has the advantage the 5'9 shortstop or the 6'6 shortstop? The 175 lb CF or the 260 lb CF? It could be said that in some cases "Lack of size matters".

Having a couple of these big units, I totally agree with this...

Here's one of my favorites...at a showcase...

Size (6'6" 220 LHP) = big feet = speed challenged = slow 60 time = recruiter comment, "The slow 60 time indicates a lack of fast twitch fibre. Chances are he will never develop additional velocity"

44
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That is one heck of an assumption !!!

Son is 5'11" RHP and pitches for a major D1 but IMHO many of you are just stating the exceptions to the rule. The statistics bear out the assertion. As PG said, one of the reason that the D1s recruit pitchers less than 6'is because they're less likely to be drafted out of HS but they're ALSO less likely to be drafted out of college for the same reason. There's always going to be exceptions, thus the 10% figure, but my experiences have told me that size does matter when it comes to being drafted. It may actually help you get a spot on a D1 but it stops there.

Thus the steroid and HGH crisis.

We've had these size discussions before, and for reasons that may be obvious to some they've both fascinated me and made me feel a bit uncomfortable responding to. But the bottom line is, folks, size is one factor that's considered when looking at a player. To some it's the most important factor, to others a less important factor, but it is a factor nonetheless.

There are other factors. Handedness. Talent. Competitiveness. Stuff (if you're a pitcher).

I don't understand worrying about what you can't control. If you send 50 emails to college coaches and 25 of them don't respond because they think your kid is too small, it seems to me you're left with an even better list of those guys that may actually want your son. Thank you.

Bum - I like your last post....1st part dealt w/the reality of the matter....2nd part hit the nail on the head....thanks!

Bum,
Easy for you to say! Your son is a lefty.

We all know that wackiness, oops, I mean handedness trumps size every time.

True, but darn it he really wanted to be a 3B.

average size for a 2nd baseman on actual MLB teams is small. The average is around 5'11" with many smaller. OVERALL Size matters, height for infielders and center fielders is a different story with the exception of 1st baseman. You take someone like HOWIE KENDRICK (Angels). He is 5'10" BUT, and this is a big BUT, he is 200 lbs. in that smaller frame. He is a dynamo for his height....BUT BUT BUT, he can also play the game!!!!! you can be 5'10" and 200 lbs. and be slow as molassas, not able to field and have no range and you will not see a college field of play.

There are a TON of 5'10" > foot guys out there on MLB teams and in the minors much less on college teams.

HERE IS THE EXCEPTION TO THE RULE:
YOU DO NOT SEE, i repeat, YOU DO NOT SEE very many guys out there that are sub 5'10". 5'10" seems to be the magic number. That's not to say there aren't smaller guys who can play below that because there are.....BUT 5'10" is a VERY popular height for CF and 2nd Base. 3rd base is more around 5'11" to 6'1" on average.

PLAYING ABILITY MATTERS, NOT HEIGHT ....U N L E S S you are ultra-shrimp size below about 5'8". Below about 5'8" and you are going to have to be a real speciman. Pitchers are an entirely different story. Throw all of this out for pitching because it just depends on your overall frame.

For those baseball players that are below 5'8" and are seniors and not expected to grow much more (short parents and shaving), you still have a shot and never give up....you WILL turn some head at lower level colleges if you have the desire to kick some booty and take names. GOOD LUCK!!! and get plenty of rest and wear your Kimi's.

Whew.....I was worried there....just made it over the magic number.......Wait a minute......are there any fat old (and slow) guys still playing at that size...

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
True, but darn it he really wanted to be a 3B.

Luckily, good teams have a diversity of body types.

This discussion is fascinating. I do agree that size is a significant factor (more so maybe for particular positions), I firmly believe that speed (and quickness) would be just as significant for specific positions such as middle infield.

I have a son who is sophmore in high school and he is a hair over 5'8" (I'm 5'10" and played minor league baseball). While I'm hoping he pushes through the 5'10" barrier I was wondering how accurate the measurables are on college rosters. Is a 5'8" infielder sometimes listed as 5'10"? My question is targeted for parents or coaches of college players.

Thanks

Size matters to them i guess but last time i checked the MLB doesnt just draft out of big D1 programs,go somewhere where your gonna fit in,not fit in for them. and plus im a little small but im a outfielder,hopefully i will hit a little late growth spert and jump up but hey i cant control it unless they wanna stretch my legs out lol

its,
If haven't done so, welcome to the HSBBW.

I think that is a tough question to answer. Who really knows the true height, weight of a player because that info very rarely changes from year to year once they are there. My own players remained teh same and I can assure you that what he went in was not what he was coming out.

For those that might be interested, BA today has the top 25 with capsules and chat. I see where they mentioned that two players who will make significant impacts at son's former team listed in the top 25, are as follows" one @ 5'7", one @ 5'8". Size matters, but which size?

quote:

Originally posted by itsNOTjustagame:
This discussion is fascinating. I do agree that size is a significant factor (more so maybe for particular positions), I firmly believe that speed (and quickness) would be just as significant for specific positions such as middle infield.

I have a son who is sophmore in high school and he is a hair over 5'8" (I'm 5'10" and played minor league baseball). While I'm hoping he pushes through the 5'10" barrier I was wondering how accurate the measurables are on college rosters. Is a 5'8" infielder sometimes listed as 5'10"? My question is targeted for parents or coaches of college players.

Thanks

The height fudging is more significant in college than in the pros because scouts will size you up in a heartbeat. If you list at 6'0" in high school and the scout finds out you're 5'10" in shoes, then you are in danger of the honesty breach issue. Parents commonly are the one's at fault, not the players. The players get "caught" with their britches down and the parents are the real culprits. Scouts use umpires as a gauge and also they have a routine that they use to tell height. Anyway, pro's will measure you by the 1/4 inch to be sure. High School's go by what you say for the most part. The scales in the weight room tell the tale of the tape from a weight standpoint. Height is fudged all too often. IT's the ole round-up principal. I wouldn't recommend it at all because it WILL catch up with your son one day.

quote:

Originally posted by switchitter:

quote:

Originally posted by itsNOTjustagame:
This discussion is fascinating. I do agree that size is a significant factor (more so maybe for particular positions), I firmly believe that speed (and quickness) would be just as significant for specific positions such as middle infield.

I have a son who is sophmore in high school and he is a hair over 5'8" (I'm 5'10" and played minor league baseball). While I'm hoping he pushes through the 5'10" barrier I was wondering how accurate the measurables are on college rosters. Is a 5'8" infielder sometimes listed as 5'10"? My question is targeted for parents or coaches of college players.

Thanks

The height fudging is more significant in college than in the pros because scouts will size you up in a heartbeat. If you list at 6'0" in high school and the scout finds out you're 5'10" in shoes, then you are in danger of the honesty breach issue. Parents commonly are the one's at fault, not the players. The players get "caught" with their britches down and the parents are the real culprits. Scouts use umpires as a gauge and also they have a routine that they use to tell height. Anyway, pro's will measure you by the 1/4 inch to be sure. High School's go by what you say for the most part. The scales in the weight room tell the tale of the tape from a weight standpoint. Height is fudged all too often. IT's the ole round-up principal. I wouldn't recommend it at all because it WILL catch up with your son one day.

You see the fudge factor is used on high school, travel ball, and college rosters, it is pretty funny how guys shrink when they get into pro ball.

quote:

Originally posted by Homerun04:
You see the fudge factor is used on high school, travel ball, and college rosters, it is pretty funny how guys shrink when they get into pro ball.

Yes, that's true. Sometimes by the time a guy makes it to the pros and is shorter, it's almost a bigger accomplishment, so they don't mind stating their true height. (example: Lenny Dykstra)

Here's a BIG example of an exception: Louisville's 07 CWS leader & 4 yr starter Chris Cates SS 5-3 145

quote:

Originally posted by Homerun04:

quote:

Originally posted by switchitter:

quote:

Originally posted by itsNOTjustagame:
This discussion is fascinating. I do agree that size is a significant factor (more so maybe for particular positions), I firmly believe that speed (and quickness) would be just as significant for specific positions such as middle infield.

I have a son who is sophmore in high school and he is a hair over 5'8" (I'm 5'10" and played minor league baseball). While I'm hoping he pushes through the 5'10" barrier I was wondering how accurate the measurables are on college rosters. Is a 5'8" infielder sometimes listed as 5'10"? My question is targeted for parents or coaches of college players.

Thanks

The height fudging is more significant in college than in the pros because scouts will size you up in a heartbeat. If you list at 6'0" in high school and the scout finds out you're 5'10" in shoes, then you are in danger of the honesty breach issue. Parents commonly are the one's at fault, not the players. The players get "caught" with their britches down and the parents are the real culprits. Scouts use umpires as a gauge and also they have a routine that they use to tell height. Anyway, pro's will measure you by the 1/4 inch to be sure. High School's go by what you say for the most part. The scales in the weight room tell the tale of the tape from a weight standpoint. Height is fudged all too often. IT's the ole round-up principal. I wouldn't recommend it at all because it WILL catch up with your son one day.

You see the fudge factor is used on high school, travel ball, and college rosters, it is pretty funny how guys shrink when they get into pro ball.

Too funny! I live in the Washington metropolitan area and get a kick out of seeing the numbers posted on these kids then you get a chance to actually see them play. "6'2"" is really 5'11" and "92 mph " is actually 85 mph. And yes, I think it is usually the parents (sometimes it is the HS ADs) that are responsible for it. And yes, pro-scouts usually aren't fooled. My oldest played in a local wood bat League that often had scouts stopping by. These guys are professionals for a reason and leave very little to supposition...

My son is 5'10 1/2" and lists himself at 5'11". Someone who was helping promote him saw this and commented, "If you were a pitcher, we'd be listing you at 6 feet." I think it's a fairly common occurrence.

hm. the average height of a major league baseball player is 6 feet tall. i was shocked when i found this out.

A player can be very tall and still not get looked at. In some cases, very tall is not good, especially middle infield. It takes a great deal longer to get around unless you are athletically gifted like Derek Jeter who can pull off being 6'3" and a shortstop....not too common a height for SS.

Also, sometimes a taller player is not as quick releasing the ball (longer arms because problematic in transition). If you get to be too tall, sometimes you are counted out for a position. What's the tallest starting 1st basemen in the Major Leagues? I'll give someone a cherry sucker for the first correct answer.

quote:

Originally posted by fanofgame:
for all those players going to the Stanford allstar camp this summer. They measure you and weigh you on your way in to register. Coach from Stanford spoke to all the players before the camp and said i noticed many of you have shrunk and lost weight since you got here.

How funny, but they grow quickly if they go there....and shrink when they get into the pros.

quote:

Originally posted by fanofgame:
for all those players going to the Stanford allstar camp this summer. They measure you and weigh you on your way in to register. Coach from Stanford spoke to all the players before the camp and said i noticed many of you have shrunk and lost weight since you got here.

Did they allow the kids to keep their falsified height/weight for the 2008 roster? Or did they use the height/weight measurement from the camp as the "official" height and weight? I am going to guess that the person with the clipboard was allowing the kids to get the benefit of the doubt. So let's say someone is just UNDER 5'11"....my guess would be that they listed that person as 6'0" tall. Please confirm.

First baseman are generally taller than most positions?

OK, I admit it. By night time my son is only 6'1 3/8" and in the morning he's only 6'1 7/8" unless he really stretches yet we've listed him at 6'2". Do you think I'll get jail time?

quote:

Originally posted by fanofgame:
switchhitter,
all this info was put on the front of the evaluation. no they didnt fudge on those. as a matter of fact they said there scale was weighing heavy and subtracted 4 pounds from everyone.the eval. sheets were available to all the coaches there. i believe the coaches of each team had meetings everynight where they could ask about diff. players. but there are a lot of kids at this camp, and a lot of the Ivies, and those type of D1s so when they go back to review their notes they at least have an accurate picture.

how did they do their height measurements? Did they have shoes/cleats on or off?

quote:

Originally posted by fanofgame:
(good grades, no point in going to that camp if you dont have good grades)

And you think the GPA and SAT scores are accurate?

Does Boog Powell still count?

homerun04,

I know with the kids that I know that went to the stanford camp that they asked for a copy of transcrips and sats. i know my sons references were checked by at least two sources. They say its first come first serve because of NCAA ,but i believe there is somewhat of a process to guarantee that they bring the right types of players. this camp has a pretty good reputation and a lot of very good schools were there, Harvard,cornell,yale,penn state,dartmouth,etc. etc why bring them all the way here to bring players who cant qualify or play for thier schools.they also give you a very accurate eval to some degree. but this is off the subject the post is size maters i was just answering switchhitters questions specifically to me about camp.

I am just given the subject a hard time that players/coaches/parents fudge on their height/weight/speed/stats/grades etc.

I know a lot of players who have gone to the Stanford Camp and many players who play and have played at Stanford. Great school that mine could only dream to go to.

Just having a little fun on reality that if you have talent, some can over look size, but you have to see it for yourself!

fan,
Let us know about the shoes. Hmmm...I can see 6'5" with elevator spikes.