so what do you think of my pitches?

First off, how old are you?

Judging only on your velocity, I would say your in your early teens.

My suggestion would be, drop everything except the fastball, and a changeup
and work on those
Focus on getting them the same exact mechanics, and arm speed.
And work on getting it so you can hit spots with those two pitches

That is all you need.
When you are a Junior [assuming you arn't] then you can toy with Curves and such.

It is all cliche'd


-Dan

Im a freshman. SO yeah I agree I really should work on my fastball, but in in a good place now since I can throw these pitched I guess.

quote:

Originally posted by Mains3:
Im a freshman. SO yeah I agree I really should work on my fastball, but in in a good place now since I can throw these pitched I guess.

I agree with DH....scrap the curve, slider, and split, and focus on fastball/changeup. At your age, I would focus on further developing your arm strength (both through long toss and through throwing more fastballs in general) and developing the ability to throw both pitches to any location in any count with an identical arm action on both pitches.

Perfect your delivery so that it is highly repeatable (which will help your control and will give you a strong foundation down the road when you look to add another pitch). Very few big leaguers throw five pitches, so there is no need for a kid in 9th grade to throw that many.

A big part of wanting to throw so many pitches at a young age is having the ability to make hitters look silly as they dive out of the way of a breaking ball only to have it break across the plate for a called strike. Trust me, nothing makes a hitter look any sillier than seeing someone who thinks they're getting a fastball jump out of their shoes after a good changeup.

Get some command with your four seam fb, two seam fb and either a circle or three finger changeup. Keep working on the curve some, but use it sparingly.

Drop the slider, it is the hardest pitch on your arm.

Also drop the splitter version of your change - and as Texan suggests go to the circle or three finger grip (or I also like the glavine change - middle finger and ring finger on the back of the ball, pinky and index on either side of the ball.) Splitter grip is VERY hard on elbows...

The slider and splitter (just throwing out what I've heard) can be lethal to the arm at an early age, or any age. Make sure when (a couple years from now) you learn it, there's a pitching coach right beside you 24/7. I feel, when thrown properly the slider doesn't do terrible damage to an already matured arm, but that's the key. I just started (17) fooling around with a splitter and found it to be a very effective pitch, but when I spred my fingers (with the seems like throwing a 2 seem), I barely put them outside the seems. This has not caused any elbow problems... yet. I'm wondering if this is safer (seems like it should be) to putting the ball deep into the two fingers.

As you suggested for the slider, the splitter should only be taught by a QUALIFIED pitching coach. Don't fool around with it - either learn it from someone who knows what they are doing or stay away from it...

Personally I vote stay away from it period... even professionals have arm trouble with it... looks at the Giants pitching staff under Roger Craig in the late 80s - arm problems everywhere and Roger was supposed to be the master of teaching that pitch.

quote:

Originally posted by 08Dad:
Splitter grip is VERY hard on elbows...

There's no good evidence to support this notion.

If it was true, then why did Bruce Sutter adopt it AFTER having elbow problems?

The reason that I don't like younger guys throwing the splitter is purely practical; their hands generally aren't big enough to grip it properly to get it to move well.

quote:

Originally posted by Mains3:
First off I throw a fast ball 60 - 70, then a nasty 2 seamer( sort of a screw ball it cuts in to a lefty then darts away from a lefty.) Nice slider( darts down and in to a lefty) curve( big break, helps with off speed.) then lastly I throw a splitter/change( it looks like I will throw a fastball, but I put so much back spin on the ball it goes slow and drops down)

I would focus on your 4-seamer and 2-seamer. Stick with your splitter/change if it in fact works. Otherwise, learn some variant of the circle change.

As an aside, a splitter works due to topspin, not backspin. Topsin makes a ball drop while backspin is what holds a 4-seamer up in the air (and makes it seem to rise).

You can't put topspin on a splitter. You can put topspin on a curve.

What makes a splitter drop more than a fastball is the spread of the fingers (shortening the lever arm) and less spin imparted by the fingertips not being on the ball.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
You can't put topspin on a splitter. You can put topspin on a curve.

What makes a splitter drop more than a fastball is the spread of the fingers (shortening the lever arm) and less spin imparted by the fingertips not being on the ball.

I'm not convinced that many people, if any, completely understand why a splitter does what it does. It could be that a splitter works for the same reason that a knuckle curve works.

And here's a picture of Bruce Sutter with his fingertips on the ball.

If you are talking about the knuckle curve I have heard of, we'll shoot that one down too.

The photo shows exactly what I am talking about. That grip cannot produce topspin when thrown with fastball type mechanics (which is the only way to throw it).

Texan, your info on not being able to put top spin on the splitty is inaccurate. My out pitch was a split, and I could top spin it, run it in and run it away. It dosnt spin fast, but I could definetly top spin it.

are you sure you don't mean back spin, because physics simply wouldn't allow you to put top spin on a splitter, if you are throwing it correctly.

If you threw the grip shown in the picture overhand (whether 3/4 or full overhand) as opposed to underhand, it is physically impossible to get top spin on the ball. There is no force exerted on the ball in the top spin direction (unlike with the curve).

The last part of the fingers to contact the ball are on TOP half of the ball (front view), and they will exert a force DOWN on the REAR half of the ball (side view) at last contact with the fingers, because the fingers are traveling DOWN (as is the arm) at release. This force vector will produce backspin every time. It cannot product topspin, unless you have magic pixie dust and can violate the laws of physics. There is no force exerted in a vector that can cause topspin.

Anyone with a basic knowledge of physics can figure this one out. As NHS has...

Im sure about the top spin, and the physics behind it are a little diffrent then you think. It is not a quick spin, but unquestionably a forward tumble

Texan if these are your opinions thats fine. But being so closed minded on this topic is foolish. Did you ever throw an effective split? I can also make a split knuckle, how does that fit into your physics lesson? I dont need "pixie dust" and I dont violate the laws of physics. You discussing "the force vector" and "backspin every time." is totally false. I got an A in physics, and not one time in my physics book did it refer to the force vector only producing backspin on a split....never...which books did your school use? I do not defy physics, and I have an excellent understanding on how the split works.

If you understood what you were taught, you would understand the application of the forces involved in throwing the splitter. And you would understand why it is impossible, according to the laws of physics - not according to my opinion - to get top spin on the splitter. Regardless of WHO is throwing it.

My degree is engineering - which is APPLIED physics. You might want to work on applying the laws and principles of physics to this problem. Then you can learn how to analyze a multitude of things, regardless of whether that specific example appeared in your physics text.. Include the forces exerted on a round ball in the act of pitching.

It is not topspin. It is much less backspin than a fastball and significantly less velocity. That produces the effect you refer to as "tumble".

If you think you can break the laws of physics, just go on believing that. Enough has been said on this one.

I've asked my physics teacher about how different pitches work... and here was his (very watered down-not accurrate with my luck) answer: in general pitches move due to a pitcher causing a high pressure on one side of the ball and a low pressure on the other. This usually creates spin/easily seen in spin but then how do you explain the splitter which drops yet it USUALLY has back spin? He said, in a very... hard to understand answer is that the general rules apply, but that the ball wants to turn over and yet can't. Thus it falls. I think he might've said something about the low/high pressures being on both sides and top and bottom (either low pressure on the sides, and high pressure on top and bottom, or other way around) Now, I must say, this is what I personally took away from this, and it's not fact (he could be wrong... and my memory of it could be lacking things). But it makes sense.

Dtiger, I have seen and thrown very effective splits with little backspin, some with a forward tumble, and some that have fallen off the table that had no spin. There are ways to make it ride in and away as well. You are much more knowledgable then you think on this topic, as high low pressure, and different aspects of applied pressure through fingers and knuckles on a split can create a wide variety of outcomes. peace Dtiger

p.s. I know I cant spell.

I agree- I have thrown pitches with a variation of the splitter grip (fingers placed in slightly different places) and gotten it to cut in and out on fairly consistent basis. Until I can perfect this, I won't use it in the game. I can't tell you if they have top spin but the one I use in the game definately has back spin. The splitty that knuckles is not new to me-use to have a dad of a kid do it all the time... a couple actually. All had big hands and big knuckles. I actually have small hands... relative to normal pitchers' hands. They haven't kept me from mastering tons of pitches.

Dtiger, ask your physics teacher to look up "dipole moment". Most of what you do to make a ball break one way or the other is caused by this phenomenon.

I used to throw somewhat of a splitter, i called it the "Dead Fish". My splitter knuckled and slowly spun forward.

I'd like to weigh in with more than a little advice for Mains and Deemax, advice that should go a long way toward lengthening your baseball careers. DROP THE DARNED SPLITTER!!! You guys don't need it, but since you can throw it ok, you think you've got this incredible out pitch. Neither of you is old enough to know how to PROPERLY pitch yet, let alone throw such a dangerous pitch. Learn to throw a good fastball and changeup with identical arm speed, angle and action. Go ahead and learn a proper curveball as you go along, but stay away from a slider at your age, and especially STAY AWAY FROM A SPLITTER.

What neither of you realize, and with all due respect to Thepainguy, is that a split finger fastball places a great deal of stress on the Ulnar Collateral Ligament of your elbow. There have been more pitchers who've had to undergo Tommy John surgery due to learning this specific pitch than any other pitch in baseball. When the ball is leaving your fingers on a properly thrown splitter, there is a tremendous amount of stress on the UCL, in part due to having the fingers split apart and the ball coming off the inside tips of those fingers while the arm is so tight. Try this, spread your two fingers apart like you are going to grip a splitter, while holding your other hand over the inside or medial side of your elbow. You'll feel the muscle contract and everything tighten up just from opening your fingers with no ball and no throwing stress. That extra stress is enough, when thrown over and over, to damage the UCL and end your throwing days.

Before those of you who are disagreeing with Texan and 08dad jump on me too, I come from a little bit different perspective. I've run a very successful summer baseball program for 7 years, with many of the better high school aged pitchers from this region playing with me. NONE of them throw a splitter. They've all learned how to throw fastballs, changeups and a breaking ball. Many of them are now pitching in college. Our family also has a relative who pitched briefly with two American League teams, and had his 6 year pro career come to an end when he tore his UCL shortly after adding a splitter to his arsenal. He had to have Tommy John and didn't have a succesful comback from it, and ended his pro career at 27 years old. Finally, I have a son who has undergone Tommy John surgery, thanks in large part to that darned split-finger pitch. My son is a catcher, but WAS (the operative word is WAS) also a pitcher. He had a little better than average fastball, a very good changeup and a so-so curveball. He decided, against my constant disagreement, to also throw a splitter. Yeah, it was filthy and he struck a lot of guys out with it, but it was doing damage to his elbow all along. He wouldn't listen to his dumb dad and fell in love with the split. Last year, exactly one year ago today, as I write this,, he was behind the plate in a tournament in southern CA, and when throwing down to 2nd base between innings, felt a "pop and burning sensation" in his right elbow. That was the last time he threw a baseball until last week.

Since last January 15th, we've battled insurance companies and medical groups to get who we felt is the best TJ surgeon in our part of the country. That took months, time away from the game my son loves so much. He had his surgery on September 27th by Kenneth Akizuki, the doctor we wanted all along. I had to pay cash for the entire operation as our insurance wouldn't cover it due to our medical group insisting we go to someone they refer to, even though he had far less Tommy John experience. It was very expensive, but worth every penny I paid. My son has had no pain since the surgery, has full range of motion and his rehab is going very well. If all continues to go well, he'll step on a baseball field sometime this summer, after missing more than a year. He'll start playing Jr. College baseball next fall, after missing his senior year of high school and what would have been his actual freshman year of college baseball. We've pretty much been through hell and back with his injury, as it relates to his baseball dreams. He'll come back just fine in all liklihood, but he'd be the first person to tell you that it was hell, and if he had it to do over again, he never would have thrown a splitter.

So, I have a question for both of you pitchers who throw the splitter. Do you really think it is worth it? Are you willing to make a deal with the devil in the hope that you won't have arm problems? If you are, and want to stay with the split, let me offer you one very important piece of unsolicited advice. Pitchers get drafted by professional baseball clubs because of their ability to throw FASTBALLS. They don't get drafted because they have a great slider, changeup or SPLITTER. They get drafted because of their ability to throw fastballs. The same thing goes with college recruiting. Go learn to throw what matters, and learn how to pitch the right way.

06catcherdad, the splitty is no doubt tough on the elbow, so is the slider, and fastball, and curve. I have seen your son play, and remember when he hurt his elbow and how unfortunate it was. Other factors could have played a role in his injury as well.

There are only certain types of pitchers that I will show a split to, and that depends on a lot of different variables. This isnt a pitch I just start showing every pitcher I work with. I used this pitch out of desperation...My slider was weak, and my curve was a little weaker, and I wasnt ready to not get people out. It is risk reward, with alot of emphasis on risk. All pitchers risk hurting thier arm.

Dtiger, Rod Beck had very small hands and was able to throw a wide variety of pitches over a successful career, including a split. Normal hand sizes in my mind are better for pitching then huge hands. I happen to have huge hands, and the split was a real good fit for me, but I did have problems with other pitches. peace Dtiger

06CD,

Great post! I hope these guys listen to your advice. “DROP THE DARNED SPLITTER”! My son was told the exact same thing by the college coach that recruited him (D1 head coach). Son used it in HS when his change wasn’t working for him. Work on the fastball /change-up and start a weight program specific to pitchers. At the time son was 6’2” 155lbs, a string bean. The coach told him that he SHOULD NOT attempt this pitch until he was well over 200 lbs… for the exact same reasons. He is in his second year of college and hasn’t thrown a splitter since his junior year in HS.

HIGH SCHOOL PITCHERS SHOUD NOT BE THROWING SPLITTERS.

There are actually different ways to throw the splitter, so don't paint with too broad a brush.

The classic, Sutter-style splitter is thrown with rotation parallel to the ground. This requires a sideways release from the wrist and finger tips and involves sending a shock wave up the arm that the elbow absorbs. So, constant use of this can involve some serious wear and tear.

But if you use the splitter the way someone like Contreras does, with a vertical release that allows the ball to tumble, this kind of splitter is not hard on the arm. It basically functions like a change, except the ball will hang less often and tumble more reliably. The release of this pitch is just like the fastball, except with the fingers spread. So it's no more stressful than the fastball, or for that matter, the circle change.

It's also a heckuva deceptive pitch because the delivery, for it to work, has to be exactly like the fastball delivery.

quote:

Originally posted by 06catcherdad:
I'd like to weigh in with more than a little advice for Mains and Deemax, advice that should go a long way toward lengthening your baseball careers. DROP THE DARNED SPLITTER!!!
...
Learn to throw a good fastball and changeup with identical arm speed, angle and action. Go ahead and learn a proper curveball as you go along, but stay away from a slider at your age, and especially STAY AWAY FROM A SPLITTER.

What neither of you realize, and with all due respect to Thepainguy, is that a split finger fastball places a great deal of stress on the Ulnar Collateral Ligament of your elbow. There have been more pitchers who've had to undergo Tommy John surgery due to learning this specific pitch than any other pitch in baseball. When the ball is leaving your fingers on a properly thrown splitter, there is a tremendous amount of stress on the UCL, in part due to having the fingers split apart and the ball coming off the inside tips of those fingers while the arm is so tight. Try this, spread your two fingers apart like you are going to grip a splitter, while holding your other hand over the inside or medial side of your elbow. You'll feel the muscle contract and everything tighten up just from opening your fingers with no ball and no throwing stress. That extra stress is enough, when thrown over and over, to damage the UCL and end your throwing days.

EXACTLY! Anyone can feel the added stress on the ligaments if they will do what you describe here.

Dtiger, read Adair's book, "The Physics of Baseball". You have this backwards, the pressure differential is not causing the spin of the baseball. The spin of the baseball is causing the pressure differential. Adair's book is a short read, you will find it interesting & educational.

EVERY pitch "drops" as it goes to the plate. Something called gravity causes that. It is just that some drop more than others. What can cause a certain grip to drop more than a fastball? Slower spin, slower initial velocity. And, in the case of a curve but not the splitter, topspin.

Topspin is not the only thing that will cause a pitch to drop more than a fastball.

Texan- I agree. The pressure a pitcher puts on a ball creates the spin which in turn creates the pressure spots. Your comment about gravity is most definately true, but the horizontal velocity of any pitch does not change... therefore the timing of the drop/where it drops depends on how fast/slow the ball is going horizontally. That comment is just to basically say that throwing the splitter slower, might not necessarily mean more drop-when you want it.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
EXACTLY! Anyone can feel the added stress on the ligaments if they will do what you describe here.

Sorry, but it's next to impossible to feel a ligament unless you know exactly what you are doing.

What you are feeling are muscles and tendons.

These are completely independent of the UCL.

DT, the horizontal velocity of the pitch does change as the ball travels to the plate. If that is what you are talking about. Friction (e.g., wind resistance).

For a given pitcher, the splitter will be slower in the horizontal axis than the fastball. That is a result of the grip and the manner in which forces are applied.

Not sure exactly where you were going with the horizontal comment.

Painguy is correct that what you're feeling is the muscles and tendons, but they are very easy to feel tense up. Throwing with this extra tension is a contributing factor to UCL tears, one that we can't easily comprehend when static, compared to under the severe stresses the arm goes through while pitching. Texan is also correct in that what you can feel is placing added stress on the ligament, though you don't feel the ligament itself.

I have another piece of information to offer for both of you pitchers to consider. We have a friend who plays in the minor league system of the Twins. He's a catcher, and we've talked about the splitter a lot, and how they regard it. His answer was very simple and to the point. He said that the Twins DO NOT ALLOW their lower level minor league pitchers to throw split finger fastballs at all. He explained that the coaching staff believes it is too risky for younger, lower level pitchers, and they don't want added risk of arm injuries at those levels. If it is too risky for one of the best clubs in MLB with regard to how they handle their pitchers, what is it that makes you think it isn't too dangerous for you?

06catcherdad, Odds are if they are playing pro ball in the twins system they have something else going for them other then a split, so not letting them throw one wont hinder their development or success. I feel fork/split should be used out of despiration because your other breaking stuff is poor(not for youngsters, but for pitchers looking for an edge in college or the pros). If you want to play it safe, don't pitch. Then you wont ever have to worry about arm surgery. I'm not advocating pitchers run out and start throwing splits, but if you cant get someone out by conventional means and you still want to compete then certain sacrafices need to be made to do so (split, screwball, knuckle, side arm...ect). Nobody here is cliaming the split is safe, but an arguement could be made for the splits safety is comparison with a slider or curve. Should these pitches also not be thrown?

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
... I feel fork/split should be used out of despiration because your other breaking stuff is poor(not for youngsters, but for pitchers looking for an edge in college or the pros).

emphasis added

Fairly broad agreement here, it now appears.

quote:

... Nobody here is claiming the split is safe, but an arguement could be made for the splits safety is comparison with a slider or curve. Should these pitches also not be thrown?

Young pitchers should not throw sliders. The curve should wait until about 13-14YO to begin teaching it. And after learning the proper way to throw the curve, it should be used sparingly.

mains3, thanks for sparking a good discussion during a slow time on the board.

Guess you probably got more info than you wanted.

I think you can see that a significant group of folks would recommend that you go with fastballs (2 & 4 seam) and a changeup. Almost everyone agrees that you should drop the slider. And it now appears that the majority agrees you should drop the splitter.

Some would add the curve (thrown properly) after gaining some command with the first three pitches.

If you have a good (e.g., thrown with some command) 2 seam, 4 seam and changeup, you don't NEED a splitter or slider.

Best wishes for you.

dm, you feel I was a little rough on you. My apologies for that.

Must continue to stand by the substance of what I said, however. Even if it should have been put more diplomatically.

We'll just have to disagree in some areas.