I meant most of us involved in the topic, sorry.
quote:Never seen a full ride in BB that is a true full ride like FB and BkTB.
While rare, very rare...I can guarantee you I have. And a coach who says he's never seen one either means at his school he's never seen one...or he's BS-ing you cause he doesn't want to get into that discussion.
They happen.
Yes, there really are "full" rides.
Many more than what people might think. Still would be considered very rare.
Many more than what people might think. Still would be considered very rare.
I am going to bring this thread back to the point of the article, which is what happens with Milb players during the offseason.
These players are indeed part of an entertainment industry as PGStaff points out. However, they are also very much different. They are not independent contractors.
If they want to pursue this option of playing baseball, they sign a contract imposed by MLB that binds them for 6 years or as long as the team desires, on terms imposed by MLB. If you don't believe it, try and negotiate the terms. It is very much like "negotiating" the terms for a credit card. You don't and you cannot understand most of it.
This contract pays them for the "championship season" but requires them to report at least one month before and compete in an unpaid status. How many employers in this country require you to work for them, unpaid, at their location, without pay or expense reimbursement?
While the Milb contract dates back many years, teams now regulate off-season activities.
One aspect is conditioning. While not "required," MLB gives every player an off season conditioning program. Their folks call just about weekly to determine the players status/compliance and weight. The players know they are not likely to do well in March if they don't perform or exceed during the off-season.
MLB has imposed off season drug testing. Players are subject to being tested on 24 hours notice. If they don't show up, it is a failed test. The player is required to notify MLB of their location at all times during the off season in order that they can be contacted about testing. If the player fails an off-season MLB imposed test, they get suspended for 50 games. If they fail to respond, it is a failed test and the suspension is imposed.How many employers have such control over it's employees actions for drug testing during such times, and without any financial obligation to it's employee.
If you are injured from baseball, you are required to follow the teams treatment plan, over seen by their training staff and team MD. While many State laws require such players to receive a weekly disability payment in these situations, the players normally don't receive these payments from MLB, the team or their workers' compensation insurer. The players don't receive notices they might be entitled to such payments as most every state law mandates.
I cannot think of many employers in this country that can unilaterally impose on it's employees such control over their actions, when they are not working and being paid.
The fact is, however, MLB has done just that just by the process of time and change.
With these changes, so far as injured players, some MLB teams do not comply with applicable laws. They just don't.
But, to the point, gradually, MLB has taken more and more control over the off season actions of the players it wants to retain under that 6 year contract.
These players do not have a union. For a lot of reasons, they won't.
I don't, for the most part, attribute these changes to anything other than MLB looking to have a better product and maintaining maximum control of that product. The problem is the products are people.
These changes have happened gradually and I am sure with some justification from the MLB perspective.
But, the fact is that employers in this Country usually cannot regulate the actions of it's employees away from work, to this extent, and do so without any salary or financial responsibility to its employees., in my opinion.
It sure isn't because MLB cannot afford it. It is because they impose these requirements on young men who have a passion to play and a short time to prove they can.
Questions about these items might not be well received, if a player wishes to survive to play another season.
When we look at how off-season control by MLB has evolved on these relationships, the BA article is sobering. It is just incomplete, in my view.
These players are indeed part of an entertainment industry as PGStaff points out. However, they are also very much different. They are not independent contractors.
If they want to pursue this option of playing baseball, they sign a contract imposed by MLB that binds them for 6 years or as long as the team desires, on terms imposed by MLB. If you don't believe it, try and negotiate the terms. It is very much like "negotiating" the terms for a credit card. You don't and you cannot understand most of it.
This contract pays them for the "championship season" but requires them to report at least one month before and compete in an unpaid status. How many employers in this country require you to work for them, unpaid, at their location, without pay or expense reimbursement?
While the Milb contract dates back many years, teams now regulate off-season activities.
One aspect is conditioning. While not "required," MLB gives every player an off season conditioning program. Their folks call just about weekly to determine the players status/compliance and weight. The players know they are not likely to do well in March if they don't perform or exceed during the off-season.
MLB has imposed off season drug testing. Players are subject to being tested on 24 hours notice. If they don't show up, it is a failed test. The player is required to notify MLB of their location at all times during the off season in order that they can be contacted about testing. If the player fails an off-season MLB imposed test, they get suspended for 50 games. If they fail to respond, it is a failed test and the suspension is imposed.How many employers have such control over it's employees actions for drug testing during such times, and without any financial obligation to it's employee.
If you are injured from baseball, you are required to follow the teams treatment plan, over seen by their training staff and team MD. While many State laws require such players to receive a weekly disability payment in these situations, the players normally don't receive these payments from MLB, the team or their workers' compensation insurer. The players don't receive notices they might be entitled to such payments as most every state law mandates.
I cannot think of many employers in this country that can unilaterally impose on it's employees such control over their actions, when they are not working and being paid.
The fact is, however, MLB has done just that just by the process of time and change.
With these changes, so far as injured players, some MLB teams do not comply with applicable laws. They just don't.
But, to the point, gradually, MLB has taken more and more control over the off season actions of the players it wants to retain under that 6 year contract.
These players do not have a union. For a lot of reasons, they won't.
I don't, for the most part, attribute these changes to anything other than MLB looking to have a better product and maintaining maximum control of that product. The problem is the products are people.
These changes have happened gradually and I am sure with some justification from the MLB perspective.
But, the fact is that employers in this Country usually cannot regulate the actions of it's employees away from work, to this extent, and do so without any salary or financial responsibility to its employees., in my opinion.
It sure isn't because MLB cannot afford it. It is because they impose these requirements on young men who have a passion to play and a short time to prove they can.
Questions about these items might not be well received, if a player wishes to survive to play another season.
When we look at how off-season control by MLB has evolved on these relationships, the BA article is sobering. It is just incomplete, in my view.
An excellent and informative post, infielddad...........
Infielddad,
The coaches who stated that there were no full rides were from all over the US. They were driving home the myth about how much BB money players could expect. Most parents and players actually thing that all players get this huge scholarship. Collectively they all stated they had never seen one and only heard that Jeter got one. Don't know why they would lie about that. I suppose it is possible but seems kind of dumb to give one player a full ride out of the 11.7.
As far as MLB underpaying MiLB players. Yes they are under paid but they sign the contract. I have never met a MiLB player that was unhappy with their circumstances unless they got cut. It is a huge risk in terms of time that could be spent advancing their career es in another field. I do know guys who turned down MiLB contracts to enter a profession after college. One had a six figure offer but decided to take his MBA and join the firm later. I believe they paid for his post grad studies.
I also know guys who signed out of HS who had no college options. They hated school and struggled to pass. The one guy has been on the ML team 40 man roster but was sent down. He is in a tough spot right now. No education to fall back on.
As far as MLB underpaying MiLB players. Yes they are under paid but they sign the contract. I have never met a MiLB player that was unhappy with their circumstances unless they got cut. It is a huge risk in terms of time that could be spent advancing their career es in another field. I do know guys who turned down MiLB contracts to enter a profession after college. One had a six figure offer but decided to take his MBA and join the firm later. I believe they paid for his post grad studies.
I also know guys who signed out of HS who had no college options. They hated school and struggled to pass. The one guy has been on the ML team 40 man roster but was sent down. He is in a tough spot right now. No education to fall back on.
quote:MLB has imposed off season drug testing. Players are subject to being tested on 24 hours notice. If they don't show up, it is a failed test. The player is required to notify MLB of their location at all times during the off season in order that they can be contacted about testing. If the player fails an off-season MLB imposed test, they get suspended for 50 games. If they fail to respond, it is a failed test and the suspension is imposed.How many employers have such control over it's employees actions for drug testing during such times, and without any financial obligation to it's employee.
Infielddad,
I agree with the entire post but wonder if the drug testing is an unavoidable issue brought upon by the players themselves and the pressure the "fan" brought upon MLB. Much of the illegal drug use is off season use. Whether it be recreational or a "proformance enhancing" use to prepare a player for the next year, I feel off-season testing is a must. In order for MLB to "clean their house" they had to make sure that attendance was taken and that no one snuck off to the parking lot because they were not prepared for the test.
Some rules are brought on because of previous troublemakers.
rz1,
In general, I think we share the same view of how the issue arose.
However, to the best of my knowledge, the drug testing program was implemented at the minor league level to respond to the adverse publicity generated at the major league level.
But, with that said, my focus isn't on whether it was proper to universally impose it on players who have no power or ability to resist it.
My issue is if you require a Milb player to keep MLB notified of his whereabouts during the entire off-season, and to respond within 24 hours for a drug test, why do you also not have a responsibility to compensate that player for the control you exercise over them during the off-season? This is especially true if the failure of the player to be available for the test results in failed test result and a 50 game suspension when the season starts.
BHD, did you read my post??? It was only about the off-season and the control MLB has over it's players, without any compensation being paid. The Milb contract does not spell out the off-season control that has evolved. It does not spell out the teams off season obligations under the Workers' Comp laws of each state.
Let me repeat, I am not posting about the contract and what happens during the season. I am posting about what happens during the off season and the control exerted over these young man by an employer which takes the position they don't owe them anything, while they control what they do, where they go, and when they can do things.
In general, I think we share the same view of how the issue arose.
However, to the best of my knowledge, the drug testing program was implemented at the minor league level to respond to the adverse publicity generated at the major league level.
But, with that said, my focus isn't on whether it was proper to universally impose it on players who have no power or ability to resist it.
My issue is if you require a Milb player to keep MLB notified of his whereabouts during the entire off-season, and to respond within 24 hours for a drug test, why do you also not have a responsibility to compensate that player for the control you exercise over them during the off-season? This is especially true if the failure of the player to be available for the test results in failed test result and a 50 game suspension when the season starts.
BHD, did you read my post??? It was only about the off-season and the control MLB has over it's players, without any compensation being paid. The Milb contract does not spell out the off-season control that has evolved. It does not spell out the teams off season obligations under the Workers' Comp laws of each state.
Let me repeat, I am not posting about the contract and what happens during the season. I am posting about what happens during the off season and the control exerted over these young man by an employer which takes the position they don't owe them anything, while they control what they do, where they go, and when they can do things.
Yes they do excert control over many things in the off season. That is part of the contract. It even restricts dangerous endeavors. I know several players who were injured in the winter. Skiing, snowmobiling etc. They were fined and in one case a ML pitcher from here was terminated for breach of his contract.
The logic is that they invest in you and limit the risk. Now drugs are seen as a risk. A pitcher who went through the system here and was a top talent was called up to they Jays. He was caught stealing money from a teammate in the locker room and was never heard of again. They exert amazing control over several aspects of the players life.
If you are trying to compare this work relationship ,it is very hard to do. Most players and parents know what their son is getting into. They have options which include signing or not. Also they can play in other countries but they rewards are not as great.
The logic is that they invest in you and limit the risk. Now drugs are seen as a risk. A pitcher who went through the system here and was a top talent was called up to they Jays. He was caught stealing money from a teammate in the locker room and was never heard of again. They exert amazing control over several aspects of the players life.
If you are trying to compare this work relationship ,it is very hard to do. Most players and parents know what their son is getting into. They have options which include signing or not. Also they can play in other countries but they rewards are not as great.
quote:That is part of the contract.
I just happen to have that contract in front of me.
It does limit skiing and other types of things. In other words, it tells players things they cannot do in the offseason.
What I am referring to is things they tell players they "must" do in the offseason. Where they are to go, when they are to do so and the like. These, as I said before, have evolved. Now, they can be pretty pervasive for many players. They are not spelled out in that contract.
What I do find is Section XXIII which says the contract is "subject to Federal and State legislation and regulations..."
That would mean every injured Milb player is entitled to receive all information about their rights to workers' comp, including off season disability.
Are you sure that is happening "as part of the contract???"
Players should not have to walk away from the "dream" of playing baseball. Players are allowed to expect MLB to follow the terms of the contract it drafted and signed. One very important section is XXIII.
So knowing what you know now, would you still encourage your son to sign ? Would you do things differently ?
Yes and Yes!!!
That is why I am posting.
There are many players/parents reading this site. There are going to be many, many more in the future.
I have spent the last 6 months very much involved in the items about which I have posted.
I wish there had been such information for our son, some other players, and myself. There wasn't.
I very much believe players are entitled to pursue that dream. My son had that passion. He had that opportunity. Generous posters on this site who have seen him play said he also had the ability.
He did conform to every part of that contract.
He did conform to every off season requirement imposed upon him.
We have written assurances of both.
Once he did his part, he had the right to believe that there would be similar compliance to those contractual obligations.
What I determined about these items is the reason for my posts.
That is why I am posting.
There are many players/parents reading this site. There are going to be many, many more in the future.
I have spent the last 6 months very much involved in the items about which I have posted.
I wish there had been such information for our son, some other players, and myself. There wasn't.
I very much believe players are entitled to pursue that dream. My son had that passion. He had that opportunity. Generous posters on this site who have seen him play said he also had the ability.
He did conform to every part of that contract.
He did conform to every off season requirement imposed upon him.
We have written assurances of both.
Once he did his part, he had the right to believe that there would be similar compliance to those contractual obligations.
What I determined about these items is the reason for my posts.
Actually my son was advised to file for disability when he had Tommy John. Maybe each club goes about these things differently.
infielddad,
You bring up some very valid points and concerns. Some of those things, to me, are even more important than what the pay scale might be set at. I think it is impossible to sign a contract without understanding what the pay might be.
On the other hand, I think the drug testing is very important and can benefit both baseball and the baseball player. Hopefully the testing has helped a few stay off the drugs. They might not pay the player who gets tested, but they do pay for the test. They went many years without that cost and we know the results of saving that money.
I thought the original topic was about the increasing difficulty of finding off season employment and the nesessity of that off season job due to the low minor league salary. I'm just as guilty as anyone when it came to changing this topic. Sometimes it just seems like one topic creates another topic.
The four main ingredients...
Talent
Effort
Intelligence
LUCK
Some who haven't been there don't understand the LUCK part. Anyone who has been around baseball enough has experienced the LUCK factor. (good luck and bad luck)
infielddad, by all accounts your son was only missing one ingredient. He had the first three.
infielddad,
You bring up some very valid points and concerns. Some of those things, to me, are even more important than what the pay scale might be set at. I think it is impossible to sign a contract without understanding what the pay might be.
On the other hand, I think the drug testing is very important and can benefit both baseball and the baseball player. Hopefully the testing has helped a few stay off the drugs. They might not pay the player who gets tested, but they do pay for the test. They went many years without that cost and we know the results of saving that money.
I thought the original topic was about the increasing difficulty of finding off season employment and the nesessity of that off season job due to the low minor league salary. I'm just as guilty as anyone when it came to changing this topic. Sometimes it just seems like one topic creates another topic.
The four main ingredients...
Talent
Effort
Intelligence
LUCK
Some who haven't been there don't understand the LUCK part. Anyone who has been around baseball enough has experienced the LUCK factor. (good luck and bad luck)
infielddad, by all accounts your son was only missing one ingredient. He had the first three.
I think stamina is also an ingredient. layers with great talent just get tired mentally as well as physically. A low salary can make some just give up and want to get going in a career that pays and that they can get married and start a family.
Stamina = Effort and to a certain extent Intelligence. It also has a little luck involved due to genetics and lack of injury.
PG,
I don't know about others, but I think this has been a very thoughtful discussion. It continues to incorporate what happens during the off-season, but perhaps with some different angles from the BA article.
Your input and experience, as always, has been extremely valuable and important. The input that your son was notified of the disability process provides some reassurance.
Thank you for the nice words about our son.
Based on recent developments, he is now able to move forward with all past issues being resolved.
I believe he is going to be fine.
His passion for baseball continues. He is currently an associate head coach, hitting and infield coach and recruiting director. He just completed his first major recruiting weekend and is looking, anxiously, forward to their first game on 2/7.
This Summer he will be one of the lucky few to be coaching in the Cape.
He is taking with him a wealth of knowledge and experience gained from many terrific minor league coaches and countless hours of extra work and discussions with them.
The off-field aspects were tough on him. Those are behind him.
Playing is what he remembers and will always remember. On top of it, he gets to tell stories about facing Randy Johnson and the many others he played with and against who are now in MLB. He cannot wait until the story is about facing the Hall of Famer, Randy Johnson.
I don't know about others, but I think this has been a very thoughtful discussion. It continues to incorporate what happens during the off-season, but perhaps with some different angles from the BA article.
Your input and experience, as always, has been extremely valuable and important. The input that your son was notified of the disability process provides some reassurance.
Thank you for the nice words about our son.
Based on recent developments, he is now able to move forward with all past issues being resolved.
I believe he is going to be fine.
His passion for baseball continues. He is currently an associate head coach, hitting and infield coach and recruiting director. He just completed his first major recruiting weekend and is looking, anxiously, forward to their first game on 2/7.
This Summer he will be one of the lucky few to be coaching in the Cape.
He is taking with him a wealth of knowledge and experience gained from many terrific minor league coaches and countless hours of extra work and discussions with them.
The off-field aspects were tough on him. Those are behind him.
Playing is what he remembers and will always remember. On top of it, he gets to tell stories about facing Randy Johnson and the many others he played with and against who are now in MLB. He cannot wait until the story is about facing the Hall of Famer, Randy Johnson.
It's great to see how those who have had some rotten luck, can continue to love the game and help others who share their passion.
Your son is a super star in my book and more important than most Big League players. There are lots of guys who would have made it to the top, but injuries and sometimes other things got in the way.
There are guys who made it to the Big Leagues, who are bad examples for the younger generations. Sometimes these bad examples make a gizzillion dollars and are actually idolized by young kids.
How does that happen? What went wrong?
Your son is a super star in my book and more important than most Big League players. There are lots of guys who would have made it to the top, but injuries and sometimes other things got in the way.
There are guys who made it to the Big Leagues, who are bad examples for the younger generations. Sometimes these bad examples make a gizzillion dollars and are actually idolized by young kids.
How does that happen? What went wrong?
Unless the rule has changed I believe the player has six years from signing to take advantage of the college money. They have the fall to attend classes. Many are too busy in fall instructional leagues, working on their body or parts of their game all day. Some need to work and make money to financially survive the following season.quote:On another note, can't most these kids ask for a college fund to be set aside from the MLB so they can finish college after?I heard somehwere maybe on here that like 90% never use their college money.
Not sure either, but I thought it had more to do with when you quit playing than the clock starting when you signed.quote:Originally posted by RJM:Unless the rule has changed I believe the player has six years from signing to take advantage of the college money. They have the fall to attend classes. Many are too busy in fall instructional leagues, working on their body or parts of their game all day. Some need to work and make money to financially survive the following season.quote:On another note, can't most these kids ask for a college fund to be set aside from the MLB so they can finish college after?I heard somehwere maybe on here that like 90% never use their college money.
This has been a great informative post on all accounts even for those who have sons involved in pro careers.
My son wanted to work in the off season, due to his injury, he was told that he should be very careful in what he does. He held off his original plans, he also had to be available for off season rehab, so in one sense it did control his life. He was lucky that he could do nothing in the off season, not sure what he would have done if he needed to work. He didn't get paid for the two weeks of rehab in off season, just room and board. When a player is in rehab during season he gets paid, but a good point made, what if that injury does not allow you to work in the off season? Something to think about.
Good point made by infielddad, nothing would have stopped his son from signing or any of ours for that matter.
When making any decision in life, it's important to think about what one has to fall back on, or rather how quickly one can move forward. You can do that with a degree or nice money in the bank in this profession.
My son wanted to work in the off season, due to his injury, he was told that he should be very careful in what he does. He held off his original plans, he also had to be available for off season rehab, so in one sense it did control his life. He was lucky that he could do nothing in the off season, not sure what he would have done if he needed to work. He didn't get paid for the two weeks of rehab in off season, just room and board. When a player is in rehab during season he gets paid, but a good point made, what if that injury does not allow you to work in the off season? Something to think about.
Good point made by infielddad, nothing would have stopped his son from signing or any of ours for that matter.
When making any decision in life, it's important to think about what one has to fall back on, or rather how quickly one can move forward. You can do that with a degree or nice money in the bank in this profession.
On the subject of off season drug testing, I have always wondered - is it the teams problem to get the tester to you? That is, if you are taking a vacation in Spain, do they tap on the hotel room door? Or if you are in the wilderness somewhere?
quote:My son wanted to work in the off season, due to his injury, he was told that he should be very careful in what he does. He held off his original plans, he also had to be available for off season rehab, so in one sense it did control his life. He was lucky that he could do nothing in the off season, not sure what he would have done if he needed to work. He didn't get paid for the two weeks of rehab in off season, just room and board. When a player is in rehab during season he gets paid, but a good point made, what if that injury does not allow you to work in the off season? Something to think about.
TPM, that is one of my points and I made it for our son.
I believe yours was entitled to receive notice from the team of his potential rights to disability payments according to the State of Fla workers' comp laws. Whether he actually would get it requires a lot of knowledge about Fla law(I think he would.
) . But, at least, he was entitled to know. The Milb contract required that he get that information.On the other hand, being right legally isn't always in the players best interest. There are very delicate balances. When ours became a financial "commodity" the balance tipped and I made our position known.
While your son is a prospect, which David surely is, there are many different considerations.
quote:Originally posted by 08Dad:
On the subject of off season drug testing, I have always wondered - is it the teams problem to get the tester to you? That is, if you are taking a vacation in Spain, do they tap on the hotel room door? Or if you are in the wilderness somewhere?
No, it is your problem to get to the tester if you happen to be in Spain and did not tell MLB you would be there.
Normally, they call and tell you of the test and show up at your residence or place where you have told them, in advance, where you will be.
Even if your team knows of your location, that isn't good enough for these tests. You are required to notify MLB if you are going to Spain. If you don't and don't show up, and don't do something magical in the interim, you get a false test.
Interesting, however, FL is not a right to work state, the employer gets to call all of the shots. Don't forget he was working in FL. He was not told anything other than to be careful. Knowing how the system works, if he left in good shape and returned in bad, he might not have a job. That's where the problem lies. It's kind of a **** if you do, **** if you don't. If you want to play, you abide by the rules.
In 2001 I had a very bad accident at work. I kind of got familiar with the laws here in our state because of that. That's why our state is over run with personal injury attorneys.
But nonetheless, you bring up some great stuff.
In 2001 I had a very bad accident at work. I kind of got familiar with the laws here in our state because of that. That's why our state is over run with personal injury attorneys.
But nonetheless, you bring up some great stuff.
Are you talking about off season testing for milb or MLB? I don't think that anyone cares where my player is during the off season. 
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
Are you talking about off season testing for milb or MLB? I don't think that anyone cares where my player is during the off season.
Oh yes they do.
I am talking about Milb drug testing.
You are 100% correct!
So if I tell them I am in Spain - e.g. this hotel from these dates to these dates, and my number comes up, they will send a tester to me?
I bet "random" drug testing breaks down at this point and they skip on to an easier testee....
I bet "random" drug testing breaks down at this point and they skip on to an easier testee....
rjm
the college plan needs to be started within 2 years of your retirement from affiliated ball.
doesn't it say ,every MILB player will be drug tested a minimum of 3 times a year?
the college plan needs to be started within 2 years of your retirement from affiliated ball.
doesn't it say ,every MILB player will be drug tested a minimum of 3 times a year?
I found it interesting to compare Hockey to BB.
One friend who was drafted with a modest bonus gets $70,000 a year playing for his teams affiliate. I believe that is typical or at least average. Before being drafted they play for OHA teams and live with hosts. Very little pay other than room and board. The OHA team negotiates a contract with the player. Another friend got his college paid for by the OHA team. He was fortunate to have Ted Nolan negotiate for him and got that thrown in. He quite hockey realizing he wasn't going anywhere and was able to go to college free.
Overall the hockey situation is better than BB in terms of care and compensation.
The contracts do dictate what is expected of the players while under contract including morality clauses.
One friend who was drafted with a modest bonus gets $70,000 a year playing for his teams affiliate. I believe that is typical or at least average. Before being drafted they play for OHA teams and live with hosts. Very little pay other than room and board. The OHA team negotiates a contract with the player. Another friend got his college paid for by the OHA team. He was fortunate to have Ted Nolan negotiate for him and got that thrown in. He quite hockey realizing he wasn't going anywhere and was able to go to college free.
Overall the hockey situation is better than BB in terms of care and compensation.
The contracts do dictate what is expected of the players while under contract including morality clauses.
From what I've read, affiliated minor league hockey players get 5-10 times what baseball players get.
That sounds about right.
quote:affiliated minor league hockey players get 5-10 times what baseball players get.
...................................................
so does the guy that delivers my morning newspaper.
quote:From what I've read, affiliated minor league hockey players get 5-10 times what baseball players get.
NOW, you tell us!
Unless they have a superlative Insurance, this might end up even, after subtracting dental and orthodontist charges.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:quote:From what I've read, affiliated minor league hockey players get 5-10 times what baseball players get.
NOW, you tell us!
...but very few are 6'-5".
My son can't skate.