Started a weighted ball program

Great let me know. My son will also begin one but in December. We should have 2 months of ramp up until the bullpens start. He is stuck at 92 MPH, he needs 3+ MPH to be legit. Would love to hear your program and results.

That's cool.  Keep us posted.  We are thinking of having son start one too.  We are just waiting for football to end.

LMAO...I hope my son gets to the point where he is stuck at 92!!!!!!  He's a 2017 so I am expecting/hoping for good results.  The decision was not made lightly, but he is liking it so far.

I think you'll like the results. I have used weighted ball programs sporadically for years with good results. I have 4 pitchers right now, including my own son, starting week seven of an 11-week program. The big problem right now is that my radar gun went on the fritz about three weeks ago and I had to send it in for repairs, so I'm not sure of recent gains. Through four weks, though, the gains were impressive. For three of the pitcher's, however, they were new students, so there were some severe mechanical adjustments. Their initial gains were between 7 and 11 mph, but much of that could probably be attributed to the mechanical work.  I did little to no adjusting with my son, though, and he went from cruising 78-81 and maxing out at 83 to cruising 81-83 and touching 85 in the first four weeks. He was actually gunned at 86 once by a coach at a tourney a couple of weeks ago. It may not sseem like too much, but if you can get 3-4 mph out of it, that's pretty huge in my book.

3 - 4 MPH is huge.  I can't wait for this winter to see if it will help Ryno...

There wwas one other unexpected consequence. After four weeks, we played in a tournament. Now, we didn't spend any of that time working on anything other than velocity, so it was expected that his control was a little off (not too much - just a little), but something else seemed to have happened. His split-finger fastball, which we had installed a little bit last season went from a mediocre pitch to his new "out" pitch. Hadn't put any time working on it at all, but suddenly it moves well and breaks down late and sharp. maybe the extra couple of mph? Maybe a little more forearm and wrist strength? maybe just a coincidence?

Eric Cressey ran a guest blog a few days ago on the importance of preparing one's body before undertaking a weighted ball program.

http://www.ericcressey.com/tag/weighted-balls

I am expecting the 3-5 range for an increase, "hoping" for a little extra icing.  He is hitting a little growth spurt and I am working him out out hard in the weight room this off season.  Unfortunately unlike his two brothers, he's a righty, so has to work a little harder.....but, dare I use the word "projects", he will be the biggest of the 3 and shows signs of being on the right track....I am excited that his fire has finally lit and he is working hard. More importantly...he is excited!

I think were were typing at the same time. Good article...fortunately we have been working hard the last month building his foundation...looks like we are ok so far...guess I'll know for sure in 10 weeks

I know it may sound stupid to say "stuck at 92 MPH" BUT this is literally the case. he has been stuck on 92 for 2 years. There has been pro guys tell me he hit 94 MPH but I did not see it and until I see it, it did not happen. For a high school RHP to be considered a prospect he has to hit 95 MPH and sit 91-93. Lefty's are different. He wants to be drafted and he knows and we know 92 is a dime a dozen in regards to high school RHP.

They may be a dime a dozen in your area, but not even close around here

If you look at 2015 RHP in Perfect Game rankings, you will find at least 50 at or above 92 MPH. This does not include the college RHP's in the draft for 2015. Velocity is what the scouts are looking for to rate you a prospect. I feel this is where arms are popping. The pitchers know there draft status is all about velocity so they do these programs and push their arms sometimes beyond its capacity, results elbow issues. These kids are throwing max effort in an attempt to move up the draft boards. If the evaluation process was focused on other items except velo you may have less HS pitchers blowing their arms up. The scouts will say they are looking at other things BUT reality is they are looking at the radar gun and sending an eval up based off the gun readings.

92 is already a top prospect. An example:

http://www.hognation.net/baseball/recruits.html

Look at Arkansas' 2015 class. Look up the RHP'ers in PG. Almost all are sitting in the eighties.

I looked up Arizona's roster a couple of weeks ago and most of their freshman were sitting in the eighties.

Think about what you said. Around or a little over 50 2015's hitting 92 or above. Some of those will go draft. Even if that left 50 RHP's hitting 92+, there is still more demand than supply.

Of course, add +3 mph and you're elite draft status, or close. I was thinking college and you were talking draft, but, still...

http://www.drkochno.com/pitching.htm

they key to weighted ball training is the UNDERLOAD..if you dont throw the LIGHTER ball you kill your fast twitch muscles.

Exactly. I think the only real difference in most programs is how light and how heavy to go. I personally always used ntiing other than 6oz. and 4oz, but my most recent program has them moving to a 7oz after 4 weeks to see if I can fight the normal playeua that sinks in. I haven't considered going lighter (say, to a 3oz.), any ideas?

Keeton Mckinney is a perfect example. Here is a great kid that has hit 94 BUT sits high 80's and low 90's. He is 6'5 and has a plus change up. He got drafted in the 28th round!!! No money in that round, he will be great at Arkansas. If McKinney was regular at 95 he would have went rounds 1 or 2, all about VELO!! Sure 92 can get you D1 but most kids dream of being professional. It really is touching 95 and not hitting in the 80's when they watch you. Keep all fastballs in the 90's, touch a big number and at least show one offspeed pitch that has bite to it.

Root, The last 3 weeks of the program we are using incorporates the 3oz ball

Dr. John Bagonzi did tons of research on weighted ball.I think you'll find it helpful. Just google his name. wrote a very interesting book as well.

Dr. Bagonzi was one of the first to do work in this area and did his Dr. thesis on the subject. This was long before Wolforth and Kyle Boddy started their programs. (Actually probably before Kyle was born )

Anyway his book was one of the first I purchased when my son started getting serious about pitching, it is an excellent reference on particularly for grips, and ball movement. It is a bit dated on some of the modern "teaches" but still a good one to have. 

The comprehensive programs that Wolforth and Boddy teach and much more than just throwing heavy and light balls, they develop the decelerators, and the overall muscle support in the shoulder/arm, they help develop control, as well as improve velocity. That said they are not a magic bullet and should be part of an overall throwing program. I know my son's college program has done a their own version for a number of years and they consistently have one of the top pitching programs and hardest throwers in D3 ball, but it takes a years, not months to achieve growth. Like a lot of athletic training there are plateau's so even if there is limited improvement during one session IMO these programs should be continued and rolled into a comprehensive program. 

I watched my son do his full routine one summer and he was throwing sand balls of wildly different weights in all kinds of different ways which is not really explainable in text, it needs to be taught and learned via video or in person.  

I am sure there will be improvement in the players doing these programs and I am curious to see how they improve, but I would just be cautious in expecting growth from 92 to 95 for example as I think there are lots of issues, such as genetic max when you start to get up to these velocities..

Anyway good luck. 

I know this is a topic where some people are strongly pro weighted balls and others feel equally strongly con. Lots of opinions to read out there but not much empirical evidence one way or the other on effectiveness (that I've found anyway).

I certainly have no evidence to offer, but FWIW... Soylent Grunt, 2016 RHP, did a program last year starting around this time which used weighted ball exercises along with other core movement exercises... A typical "velocity and mechanics" program run by a knowledgable instructor. Son's experience with it was along the lines of sore arm for first time ever, jacked up mechanics which resurfaced periodically over the summer, and in the end... About a 4 mph bump which I suspect was going to occur naturally regardless, given strength and height gains this last year.  

That said, I am NOT contending that the velocity program necessarily caused any of the above issues. Son was nearly 6'3" and a thin 170 this time last year. Very possible that his body wasn't yet ready for what he was doing. He had a so-so Summer on the hill by his standards, but has been throwing the ball very well this Fall season... including a "sudden" uptick in velo. So who knows, maybe there were benefits to his doing the program a year ago... Maybe even overcoming some of that was a net plus? Who knows. Also, unlike the OP... son was certainly not working from 92 trying to gain more... that's a different situation entirely.

But for other parents of mere mortal rising juniors, I will say that... for us... If we had it to do over again, both son and I would opt to forgo the weighted balls and velocity program in general and concentrate instead on more traditional pitching and strength training methods.  Just one experience.

Points well taken SG.  That's why it took me soooo long to decide, taking much of what you said into consideration.  This son, whom I will refer to as Righthook, is much farther ahead of his older brother, Lefthook, when it comes to raw talent and power.  One of the biggest things I considered is how much of a natural jump would he see just do to his age and his growth spurt.  I  presume that at the end of the program it will be next to impossible to state with any certainty that any gains made would be as result of either or.  Am I pushing the envelope for that little extra edge, probably guilty as charged.  But I am of the thought that trying news things is good, as long as there is a solid foundation to build upon and there is no definitive history or information stating that it is detrimental to the health or well being of the athlete.  I take the health of my boys very serious, especially when it comes to there arms.  I do believe that it needs to be monitored closely and will be looking for any change in his mechanic that may cause things to go south, no gain in velocity is worth risking that.

Solent/LHD, that is exactly why I never did a program like this with my son when he was in HS. There is something called a biological age that varies wildly with kids and I personally would not recommend one of these programs for an biologically young player. Personally there is so much to be gained from the proper throwing program, instruction, and strength and conditioning that IMO until these have been perfected and developed I would wait, plus there is the issue of proper instruction. and I am sure that, like weight lifting without proper technique, you can do more damage than good. 

Mechanics is the reason I've limited my programs to 6oz. and 4oz. balls. Those weights rarely hamper proper mechanics. I've also checked with many others who run programs of varying weights and all seem to report about the same gains in velocity regardless of the weights used. You'll see guys using 2oz. balls and 2 lb. balls, but it all works out about the same in the end. I have seen one program who reported a slight increase by moving to 7oz. midway through, so I'm giving that a try for the first time. My experience, as well as the reports of many others are that they see fewer arm problems with guys who have used overload/underload programs as compared to those who haven't. Some of that could simply be that those who use the program are more likely to be dedicated pitchers.

As to whether a velocity gain might be just a coincidence timed with growth. That really doesn't make much sense if you think about it. Most programs only run 8-12 weeks tops and a 3-4mph velocity gain in that short of a time is quite unlikely to come from natural growth.

BOF, Interesting....have you found any studies on this kind of topic (biological age).  I think it would interesting to read and maybe very beneficial for others on the board as well.  I would imagine that the biological maturity varies widely

its really hard to tell if the growth spurt or the weighted balls put on the velocity..A better target group would be the physically mature player..my son has gained velocity every year BUT has not gained a pound in 2 years,.At six foot 165 lb's im hoping a twenty pound gain can put on a few MPH's..its hard to tell if normal growth gives a kid an uptick in velocity or the weighted ball

Dr. Mike Marshall is the one who has championed the concept of biological age, and he is very controversial about his technique, which I won't get into, but he has proposed that a player should not pitch AT ALL until he was biologically 16 YO. This is not realistic obviously, but you can Google him and see the details on his ideas. ASMI is the best resource for this stuff IMO. 

Thanks...will check it out

Mind if I ask a question? How long was your son't overload/underload program in duration? I ask, because, judging from the fact that you question if natural growth might be the more important factor, it seems that this might have been a long program. I don't know of anyone who works a program longer than 3 months tops. I could definitely see where too long of a program could result in some issues.

RH - I believe the program was 8 weeks total. Good instructor. I believe son gained some positives from it, but also had some issues possibly from it as well as described.

As for the velo increase at that time, I tend to believe that most any focused pitching program aimed at adding velo is going to yield some measurable results.  I've read this repeatedly here and elsewhere -- focusing on velo for a prolonged period is going to tend to increase velo somewhat. I think incorporating the concepts into what the pitcher ultimately takes to the mound is more important, and that takes time. BTW, I wasn't suggesting that son grew strictly within the window of the program such that this impacted velo. My point was that year to year, point A to point B, it's difficult to know what is really driving velo gains. 

This time a year ago, I was asking the board for input on off season pitching programs... So thought I would share what son did in his Soph off season and our experience with it... FWIW to those at that juncture now.

Ah. OK. I thought you were talking about the measureable distance from baseline to the end of the program. Here is what I personally think such programs provide. The heavier balls may tend to strengthen the smaller muscles in the elbow that support the UCL. Not a lot, but enough to help and certainly enough that the pitcher feels it a little. I remember my son taking the 6oz. ball for the first time and wondering aloud how the one tiny ounce could help anything, but five throws in and he could feel a difference. Where I think the rela velocity increases come from, however, is the work with the underweight ball. I believe it teaches the body to move the shoulder and arm quicker and that muscle memory holds longer than the duration of the program. All of this is just my idea of what may be going on. Just speculation. If I had the time, I'd love to put a group through underweight-only training and see if the gains were, on average, about the same as the group using overweight training.

Ok, BOF, I just watched the 7 part lecture series from Dr Mike Marshall.  I would go with unorthodox vs. controversial.  I am actually going to try playing around with that technique myself the next time I throw.  I don't necessarily argue the physics of his philosophy, I see how he may be correct when it comes to injury free throwing, but, I just don't see how those mechanics can produce decent velocity.  And I notice that he never mentions velocity, just a lot about ball movement

Conversation so far has been great. I'm 31. My brain feels 50 and my right arm feels 75. Been throwing weighted balls since a partial thickness tear in my cuff years ago.

Anyway, I'd be more than happy to answer questions. Not trying to pander, but we do a lot of research and experimentation with weighted implements. Wrist weights to weighted baseballs to weighted footballs for all sorts of things. Command, velocity, etc. Weighted ball ranges from 2 oz to 2 kg with the heaviest ones being thrown all-out at 16 oz.

Skepticism is good. Who's to say a 6-8 week weighted baseball program that puts 3-4 MPH on the kid's arm was really a significant factor? What if the kid threw 6-8 weeks of the same reps, but with 5 oz baseballs instead? Could have seen the same results. Those are the kinds of experiments you should do. Hard to do with a sample size of 1, of course. Which is why I did a lot of experimentation with select teams while working for them, splitting them up into matched groups. Our research (and Dr. Coop DeRenne's research) is fairly conclusive: The stuff works better than control.

Injuries, on the other hand... Lots of ways that can go. Suffice to say I agree with Eric's thoughts on having a stable base of strength before engaging in an aggressive training program of any sort.

So then Kyle and others, when (what months/inseason v off season) would you recommend instituting a weighted ball program in the case of say a HS Sr?  Lets say that Pitcher takes some time off from pitching after October, start the WB program in January along with building up for pens and the season prep?

Open to suggestions..

A lot depends on where he is at in the recruiting/college process. If he is throwing 75 MPH as a HR SR, he probably cannot afford to take 3 months off from throwing. If he's throwing 90+ MPH, then he almost certainly needs the time off.

It's a risk/reward situation, of course. It's why I do not like the "everyone must take 3 months off" guidelines. Almost all of my college and pro arms take 6-12 weeks off of throwing depending on their seasons (especially the first year pros who pitched in college - pitching from Feb-Oct if you go to instructs is KILLER). But HS arms who need more development time and who lag behind need a more aggressive program.

I've done this. I had to terminate the study early. The underweight-only group had significant soreness/setbacks as a result of the training.

Underload training alone is extremely dangerous. Here's some slides I presented at Wolforth's Coaches Bootcamp in 2012 (full link - http://i.imgur.com/GrfVbFn.png)

http://i.imgur.com/mgt5oir.png

Good points - I think son could use some more intensity and time throwing this fall.

This year was his most innings and work so far.  FB topped out at 86 (at least touched 86 several innings into a start last season) and he feels that he is on the threshold of attaining greater gains.

Additionally, Soylent Green and others made very good points about training for velocity over extended periods of time. Our current off-season throwing program looks something like this for a week:

Velocity (high intensity, high output, low volume)

Recovery (low intensity, low output, high volume)

Hybrid (medium intensity, medium output, medium volume

Velocity

Off

Hybrid

Recovery

Then blend in 2-5 days of resistance training / weight lifting depending on the athlete's program (most lift 4 days per week), as well as metabolic training if the athlete wants gains there.

You MUST have an equivalent number of recovery days as you have velocity days. So many HS and College kids want to skip the "boring" workouts. The recovery and hybrid workouts are what allow you to push the envelope on the velocity days. As the saying goes: "Earn your lift."

(That seven day cycle is particularly heavy. We generally plan training cycles in a 14 day cycle with 3 velocity, 4 recovery, 5 hybrid, and 2 off days.)