tall and fall vs. drop and drive

Tall to Fall! Been around programs that teach both. Don't know if it is the kids, conditioning etc. but Tall to Fall and no arm troubles here. Can't say the same about ...

Neither are accurate.

To me, tall & fall and drop and drive are two end points on a spectrum. I've never seen anybody that was all the way on either end of the spectrum. (Although Tom Seaver was about as close to pure drop and drive as anyone you will find). Most kids are somewhere in the middle. Where in the middle varies from kid to kid. What works for one may not work for another. The older I get the more I am convinced there are no absolutes.

However, I am convinced that the best way to teach a young kid to pitch is to start with tall and fall type fundamentals and let him evolve from there.

For the most part I teach a version of the tall and fall. I have our pitchers drive with their calf to the plate. I have found that the mechanics tend to stay more consistent throughout the latter innings than with the dip and drive technique. I feel that it is easier for the pitchers to develop proper timing and in turn have less arm strain when you stand tall, and minimize excess movement, and then finish low.

quote:

...I have our pitchers drive with their calf to the plate...

Probably only costs them 3-5 mph.

Linear,

I agree with you - throwing a baseball when you have a small baby cow tied to your lower leg will most definitely reduce velocity.

linear,
what is your philosophy? what do you teach your kids?

ive been wondering the same thing.

Any thower, whether a pitcher or a fielder, throws from his center. If you are driving to home with the calf, you are compromising your ability to rotate from your center. The hips can't rotate efficiently while they are sliding forward.

You carry your loaded center forward in a linear fashion but then turn that momentum into rotation when you unload. If you're driving with your rear leg you can't do this efficiently.

Be sure to add this to your web site, raider.

Here we go. Driving with the leg helps to develop momentum in the body and moves the pitcher closer to the plate. As the body accelerates the rotation improves. Rotation is proper timing and sequencing. Simply rotating quickly causes one to fly open and drag the arm leading to the ball traveling up and in. All players need to have momentum with their body ie. an outfielder getting behind their throw or an infielder getting their feet underneath them. The calf is strong and allows us to have very solid and simple mechanics and helps us to move to the plate in a very consistent manner. It also allows pitchers to finish low and keep the ball down. Linear, a quick question, if you are not using some part of your back side to cause rotation, then how is it achieved? You can't rotate unless the back pushes forward and then the hips open.

quote:

Originally posted by hsballcoach:
...driving with the leg helps to develop momentum in the body and moves the pitcher closer to the plate.

The bad word is driving. The good word is carrying. Two totally different concepts. One allows you to remain loaded and put ALL the linear momentum into rotation. One forces you to be linear.

quote:

if you are not using some part of your back side to cause rotation, then how is it achieved? You can't rotate unless the back pushes forward and then the hips open.

Rotation comes from the center. You do not use your legs to initiate rotation. They provide a stable base. Very important. But, the rotation starts in the center.

HERE IS A HANDOUT THAT WE POST IN OUR PITCHING STATION WHERE WE DO OUR STRETCHING AND SHADOW DRILLS TO GET READY TO GO ONTO THE MOUNDS FOR OUR WORKOUT. (GYM)


Some Pitching Thoughts for our workouts!

1. A PITCHER THAT DOESN’T HAVE CONTROL DOESN’T HAVE ANYTHING!
2. RUSHING IS OUR SINGLE BIGGEST PROBLEM. WHERE THE HEAD GOES, THE BODY WILL FOLLOW! KEEP YOUR HEAD BACK, BREAK THE HANDS AND THEN CONTROLLED RAGE! CONTROLLED RAGE WOULD INCLUDE THE ABILITY TO DRIVE THE HIPS OR “EXPLODE” THE HIPS. CONTROLLED RAGE – NOT OUT OF CONTROL RAGE.
3. THROW TODAY FOR A PURPOSE. YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO SPOT YOUR PITCHES. WORK HARDER AT THIS! THROW A PITCH OR TWO MORE TO GET IT RIGHT!
4. OUR FASTBALL IS OUR #1 PITCH!
5. WHO IS GOING TO STEP UP TO THE #1, #2 AND #3 POSITIONS IN THE ROTATION?
6. COMPETITORS COMPETE! I’VE NEVER SEEN A SUCCESSIVE PITCHER WHO ISN’T A COMPETITOR! OUR PRACTICE IS A COMPETITIVE EVENT!

One thing that I've noticed when talking to different people about technique is the word choice used by individuals, like people may have the same idea but use different words to describe the process, just one thing to keep in mind when getting involved in a topic such as this.

Usually people don't remember this and it's simply an oversight on each others behalf.

CoachB25

Controlled Rage! Couldn't describe it better. That is the essence of INTENT!

R.

Personally I do not teach a pitcher to drive with the back leg. I would rather they push off and carry their weight on the inside of the back leg. To me, this helps stop over striding. I like to see more of a drive from the stride leg with heel leading the downward push until just before landing and then have them flatten out the stride foot. Linear, as your name states is the movement that is desired going to the plate. The legs are a heck of a lot more than a stable base. As the stride foot lands the hips begin to open as the back foot turns and rotates which in turn transfers all that momentum through the trunk and on into and out through the arm. If a pitcher were to drag that backfoot that would slow down momentum and possibly lead to other problems. I personally think that makes the back leg (foot) a pretty good qualifier as the initiator for trunk rotation.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachO:
...As the stride foot lands the hips begin to open ....

Better study some video.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachO:
...that makes the back leg (foot) a pretty good qualifier as the initiator for trunk rotation.

Better study some video.

when stride foot plants weight is centered and balanced. if you drive or push with back leg thats not going to happen. the back hip starts rotation closing the distance between the knees. just my educated, studied opinion - not an "absolute fact" or an argument against the drive school of thought. alot of big leaguers will say they drop and drive.

quote:

Originally posted by Callaway:
CoachB25

Controlled Rage! Couldn't describe it better. That is the essence of INTENT!

R.

I have found that pitchers who "throw" their legs around or ones that leave the ball out and up lack this simple concept. We teach right after the "stork position" to step "down, down, forward" in a sequence. Then, controlled rage. This come essentially from what the Cardinals teach.

CoachB25,
Very good point about throwing the leg around. That is why I think it is very important for pitchers to really focus as much energy as possible in a straight line to the plate and not spinning in a circle. I also like your wording controlled rage. I am constantly telling our guys "when your leg comes down..go like like heck to the plate." I will try your wording also. I really like to see pitchers stay high and finish low is why I like standing tall and pushing to the plate and over with the calf, unless we have a side armer and then we rotate a little more to capitalize on their movement.

Teaching a straight line to the plate has to reduce their velocity by 2-5mph. Pure physics. Why do most of the hard throwers fall toward first base (right handers)?

Also, your linear path is a recipe for arm trouble. The arm has to decelerate. It should decelerate in a rotational path.

Compare these two guys. Notice the degree of shoulder rotation. One is almost always suffering arm trouble.

Prior is linear to the plate. Pedro is rotational all the way. Prior stops or slows his shoulder rotation to whip the arm through. Very arm oriented thrower. Pedro whips his arm through with his body.

from that camera angle it also appears that prior is throwing across his body. good clips.

Nice clips. From these views, I would suggest that fist of all, they are stepping down and then forward. Not swinging the legs around the body and down. Next, the camera angle is off to one side. While I agree that Pedro is slightly beyond a straight line to the plate. He isn't that much further. Certainly, if you view this same video and take into account the angles, you would conclude this as well. ??? What we don't see is the result of the pitch. I would venture to say that any one clip of either pitcher would not be telling the whole story. I do appreciate the views. Are there other sequencing clips that you have that show several views and/or sequences with pitch location results? BTW, I do concede that the Prior video shows Prior throwing slightly against his body. The pitch, in my opinion looks like a ball inside.

yes the down and out is shown clearly. this is something we teach our kids that aids in the staying back/centered concept. it does appear prior is leaking forward slightly which leads to arm slinging and as linear said arm injuries.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
...Next, the camera angle is off to one side. While I agree that Pedro is slightly beyond a straight line to the plate. He isn't that much further...

I assume you are looking at where the foot lands by this statement. Where the foot lands has little to do with being on a "straight line to the plate" versus "rotating" to the plate.

Both of these guys have a belt loop on their right hip. Difficult to see Pedro's until later in the delivery. But watch where they end up. Then make your conclusion. Please report your finding.

Linear, Your quick with the one liners which really don't mean a great deal to me. If you can substantiate your theory I would be more than happy to read it. As far as I'm concerned this is a learning process and I personally would like to read about anything that might possibly improve my players chances at becoming a better player. If you are of ***** descent explain or offer drills that might justify your previous statement. You have been able to get several to step forward. Now it's your turn to step up. I am really curious to see what you have as proof for your theory.

I don't know what you're reading. Maybe you can't understand it. But, I'm the only one in this discussion providing evidence.

Pedro has much better rotation and a much better delivery than Prior. Check Pedro's left foot at landing compared to Prior's. I have never seen a HOF type pitcher who landed on his heel like Prior does. The last guy I saw who landed like that was Calvin Schiraldi.

Linear, The first thing that I see after seeing the angle you show in the clips, which are very good by the way, is the lack of lift in Prior's stride leg almost as if he had a runner on. To me this does not allow him to load through the abdomen and reduces his ability to rotate his torso. The second thing that I see is Prior flexing hard to pinch his shoulder blades by using his elbow to push back for that flexion just before he turns his throwing hand over to come to the plate.
It also looks like he pulls his glove side arm in extremely quick and very close to his body, IMO probably helps his throwing shoulder abduct and allows the humerus to internally rotate quicker. Also his hands are in a close loop next to his body when he enters the gathered position. I not absolutely sure if he is landing on his heel first though. It seems to me that overall he has a very compact delivery as far as extra motion is concerned. Come to think of it, I seem to recall this delivery being touted as the perfect delivery when he first came up. I also remember him going through a great deal of testing out in California when he was younger but I cannot recall the results.I am not absolutely sure but I am also inclined to think that this delivery was born by the scientific community.
Don't take me wrong here, I am all for improvement. If we were all engineered the same I might agree that rotational is the best way for everyone, but no two of us have the same synapses process nor do we have the same quantities of fast and slow twitch muscle fibers, even muscle insertion varies.
I like Pedro's style a great deal more but the reality is that he has had his share of arm and shoulder problems also.
Just explain to me your concept of torso rotation without the use of the legs.

I've been reading for quite a while but finally decided to register. Interesting opinions about pitching mechanics in this topic and others I have been reading. What other pitching sites do you guys study? Have you thought about starting a pitching discussion section here?

PitchDad08

pitching-mechanics.org is the only place for the truth.

CoachO

ALmost all power, whether pitching or hitting comes from rotation. ALL efficient rotation starts in your center not in your legs. Whether you are hitting or pitching, it's the proper use of the hips and torso, the proper load/unload in that area, that drives rotation. The legs provide some stability, some leverage from which the hips do the work. The legs react to the rotation, they don't drive it.

As for Prior being a model....that's more a case of people not knowing what they are doing and reacting to his success than really understanding what causes hard throwers to throw hard.

As far as Pedro's injuries are concerned, it should first be understood that if you are a pitcher you will have arm injuries. It's a given. Maybe a few exceptions but they are a very small percentage. Pedro is a midget compared to most mlb players. He doesn't have the stature or frame that most all others do. Yet, he is arguably one of the greats of all time. And, he threw very hard. Still comes with it now and then. I think you could expect more injury from him over the long haul. Prior's injuries showed up very early in his career. I think Pedro's mechanics are the perfect model.

Linear:

"pitching-mechanics.org is the only place for the truth".

Whose truth?

THop

Ricard, I am assuming by straight to the plate that you mean his arm slot location as it moves forward in connection to the hip drive. I would hope that we could agree that Pedro is throwing this ball as much with his body as with his arm. I do agree that the clip is something that you would show your pitching staff if for no other reason than to show the perfect example of what we call controlled rage. Note that the head stays back, the body is under control during the leg lift and then subsequent downward action. At the point where "controlled rage" occurs, Pedro's body is exploding as the arm whips through the motion at the same time the hips help him deliver the ball.

quote:

Originally posted by THop:
...Whose truth?

THop

I believe I said it very clearly the first time. THE truth.

Especially as compared to the fairy tales at Baseball Excellence.

Speaking of the head, another cause of kids not throwing to their potential is the cue "keep you head still".

Look what Pedros head does as he throws. Look at Priors. IF you are rotational your head will "move out of the way" as your posture changes. The arm can then be whipped through. Prior's head is almost completely still. Not efficient rotation. Very linear.

If most high level pitching instructors were on trial accused of being pitching instructors, slo mo, frame by frame video would show they couldn't be convicted. Their teaching doesn't match the video.

Naturally the head has to go forward at some point. However, when it goes forward is key to control etc. I've never seen anyone yet throw a ball while their head falls off of their body. LOL!

Not talking about forward. Look how far Pedro's head moves to the left. There is a reason for that. A solid reason, having to do with throwing hard with control. Yet, many many coaches will tell a kid not to do that.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:
Speaking of the head, another cause of kids not throwing to their potential is the cue "keep you head still".

Look what Pedros head does as he throws. Look at Priors. IF you are rotational your head will "move out of the way" as your posture changes. The arm can then be whipped through. Prior's head is almost completely still. Not efficient rotation. Very linear.

If most high level pitching instructors were on trial accused of being pitching instructors, slo mo, frame by frame video would show they couldn't be convicted. Their teaching doesn't match the video.
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Although I don't care for Prior's delivery, I am not going to watch Richard steer everyone in one direction due to his beliefs. At the age of 24 fter 4 full seasons in the big leagues, here are the stats for Pedro and Prior.


Pedro, 48-30, IP-661, ERA-3.47, W-238, K's-655

Prior, 41-23, IP-613, ERA-3.24, W-195, K's-719


They arrived in the big leagues at the same age, and through their first 4 seasons were similar, with an edge to Prior. Prior has less walks and more K's......does that make his delivery better........no, but what it shows is that using Prior as fodder is not proof of anything other than the two guys have different deliveries.