Ten Week Weighted Ball Program

I don't like weighted balls.  I do like stories about h.s. kids hitting 96.

Personally, I would throw those weighted balls right into the trash. A standard ball is stress enough on the shoulder and elbow...

I happen to believe in them....however they should be done only in a controlled program, and AFTER weight training, long toss, and mechanics work. They are not a magic bullet, just one aspect of a total program. 

 

I have the pdf of one done by a HS program if you want to Dialog me. Actually I will see if I can put it up on my Google docs and link it here for discussion. 

 

The program I really like is one that my son's college program uses, which I believe is based, in part, on Ron Wolforth's. They consistently have one of the best, (and hardest throwing) pitching staffs in DIII baseball in the country. They use the sand balls of different weights and it is not just going out and throwing baseballs of different weights back and forth. Frankly it is a very detailed with reverse throws, and is phased. They use it to reinforce mechanics changes as well as velocity increase.  

 

 

 

OK here is the program and results. It was done in 2007 at  Council Bluffs (IA) Abraham Lincoln High School by Jerry Kreber, Assistant Baseball Coach

He did an earlier program in 2005. 

Have at it and post positive and negative comments. This program is a bit dated to whet Ron Wolforth is now doing, and his results speak for themselves. 

 

https://docs.google.com/file/d...SnJBRklZTkNhb28/edit

 

 

I have tried weighted balls with both of my sons growing up to try and increase velocity with varying degrees of results but nothing definitive or conclusive enough to prove to me that they work significantly.

 

If anything, the only result I have seen is their arms got stronger in that they could throw the ball farther … not necessarily faster.  Even if the weighted balls were a strong factor, we eventually stopped because I felt the risk of injury to the shoulder or elbow was too great.  Particularly since we still did other arm strengthening exercises (long toss, rubber bands, etc) at the same time as well.

 

Aside from natural growth, the biggest gains in velocity came when we finally found a good pitching coach that focused on lower-body mechanics (legs), core strength, and rotational torque loading.  That’s when velocity increased the most, but again it was all those things together ...

 

.... but to respond to your inquiry directly, NO I am not a fan of weighted balls.

 

Besides, its not like weighted balls are some sort of recent technological breakthrough, if they worked definitively we wouldn't be having this discussion .... every team from HS, College, and the Pros would be using them.

BOF - interesting study.  Would you happen to know the size medicine ball used?  Ill also assume these studies were conducted during the off season. 

bballdad,

 

I don't know, but I am pretty sure they are the standard sized balls that are available. It is a reasonable conclusion to assume this was done off season.

 

My son's program does all of their work off season, however they use the sand balls. They also use some of them year round for recovery between games. I don't know the program, but I have seen pitchers throwing heavier balls backwards on their days off.

 

The link to Oates is below. They have all kinds of other performance stuff, very interesting site.

 

http://oatesspecialties.com/sa...treme-duty-p-48.html

Are the releasing (throwing) the weighted ball or holding onto it?

I do know this, Tom House's work outs consist of weighted balls, however, he NEVER has the pitchers throw them. They are more or less used as weights to strengthen the shoulder. I'm okay with that aspect because a pitcher is simply getting weight training in the form of holding a baseball. Now, as far as throwing a weighted ball, refer back to my first post...

The weighted ball program  developed by the National Pitching Association, i.e. Tom House and James Evans does include throwing weighted balls.  My son did the program this past year.  He had some increase in velocity but nothing more than what I think he would have had from just getting a year older.

Buddha, Just curious what you meant by this? Physics would dictate that a ball thrown farther has to be thrown faster. Maybe the effects were not translated to a pitching mound?

 

The science on this comes from other areas of speed training where overload and under-load training has been done for years. The concerns for pitching have been on the "overload" part, thinking that the ligament, shoulder, etc could not take the loads, but it has been found that the area of most concern is the under-load training aspect, which is why programs limit the lower end weight to 4 oz.  

 

My view is that they are fine as part of a complete training regiment, including proper pitching mechanics instruction, however they should only be used after puberty and with knowledgeable instruction, which is where the problem lies. Kind of like throwing curve balls at a young age, probably OK IF done properly, the IF is the big concern. 

 

We use weighted baseballs all the time in our facility. Both Oates' as well as the ones we specially manufacture.

 

You can see our guys pitch in the Pacific Northwest for yourself if you want to see the velocity. Don't need to take my word for it. Chris Carns (2014 Decatur, RIPS) threw 93 / sat 91 at a tournament in WSU, Julian Archuleta (2014 Peninsula, Krushers) hit 94 in a game, Herbie Good (2015, Auburn MV, Born2Play) hit 88 / sits 86. All of them started at far lower velocities than that.

 

It's not a quick fix, though. They use them on a regular basis even throughout the season. And we verified the safety and effectiveness of our program in our four camera high-speed lab and will soon be doing a large research study on them using wireless EMG sensors.

 

Should also be noted that they all throw long toss, lift weights, throw bullpens, etc. The best of my guys are training six days per week, even during the season.

Ok, have your son stop throwing weighted balls immediately! This is not part of Tom House' workout system. Like I said, House uses weighted balls, medicine balls, wonderweight, etc... I have never seen or heard of his program actually having the pitchers throw the weighted balls. Would you have your kid throw a shot put like a baseball? I truly hope not. It will tear his shoulder up. Granted, some weighted balls are a few ounces lighted than shot puts, but can create the same damage. Please do more research and if you do find ANYWHERE where Tom House has his players throw the ball, post back on this thread...

You couldn't be more wrong.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEQJAgIxX2A

 

Watch any number of the pitchers THROWING the weighted baseballs.

 

I have worked with many kids who have done the NPA program, and all of them throw 3 oz to 2 lb balls on TOP of the holds. Go to 9:30 in that video and see them throwing underload balls as well as doing holds.

 

Also read Dr. Coop DeRenne's studies on this topic that were done decades ago.

 

 

I know of several kids in our area that did that program this winter.  Several of them had arm issues during the season.  I think many of them where too young. 

Thank you for proving my point in your own reference video. "Why do arms and shoulders get stronger? Because they hang on to the balls." "Tennis players never get shoulder injuries because they hang onto the racket. In our program, we started hanging on to various weighted balls." - Tom House. 

 

You see the kids throwing regular baseballs in this video. They ALL hold onto the weighted balls and towels. 

 

Now, what were you saying about being more wrong? Please stop allowing kids to throw weighted balls back and forth to each other in their warm-up lines!

Couldn't agree more.

Those are whiffle balls covered in tape. I know people who trained DIRECTLY under Jamie Evans who say you are wrong.

They do both. Do more research, you are making yourself look foolish.

I truly hope you are not a coach, or worse, take peoples money by "training" kids to throw weighted balls as far as they can. There is no such thing as "making yourself look foolish" when you are putting health in top priority, unlike yourself. Foolish is having to explain to people why you did such foolish things in trying to "help" their kid throw with more velocity, when their kid's arms are hanging off their bodies... All torn up. Once again, I read a Tom House interview, and even heard it first hand from he, in the video YOU posted, he does not have players release the weighted balls. They are strictly mean for developing arm strength and muscle. Please, for the love of all that is good with mankind, tell me you do not allow kids to actually throw weighted balls to each other, much less have long toss with them. PLEASE tell me this is not happening under your supervision.

You are laughably wrong. Ask anyone who has actually done the program.

As for me... well, Google my name or my company. I may or may not be a coach who owns a biomechanical video analysis lab with testimonials from top orthopods and PTs and guys pitching in MLB and MiLB. As well as a T20 NCAA shot put thrower (gasp, weighted shot puts).

Or I might be a guy who is totally wrong about weighted balls who hasn't even read a single study on them.

Please do some research before spouting off. Especially since you want to coach in the PacNW.

(Gasp) Why don't you simply teach baseball players to throw shot puts like a baseball? Get out of here! (Gasp) Move on! Go tear some more arms up...

As for me "wanting to coach in the NW", thanks for creeping on my back posts. Now, after doing my research on the NW state of baseball, I quickly retracted. Then, out of nowhere, a random noob named Kyle Boddy confirmed my retraction for even entertaining the idea. On the other hand, it sounds like their NEEDS to be some solid baseball minded people to go up there and right what is obviously wrong. Is your business named "Arm Wreckers Inc."? Should be...

Nice rebuttal. Keep digging yourself that grave.

Oh yeah. I forgot to mention that I did a study on NPA holds and weighted balls and presented them at the Ultimate Coach's Bootcamp in 2012. A guy named Ron Wolforth and I are good friends because of it. But he is probably a nobody too.

Nope, just you. Keep trying to sale your garbage on this site. I wish the best for anyone and everyone who actually attends your "First open house for 'elite velocity'" whatever. Take care...

Thanks! I'll tell the 10 pro guys in attendance to look you up for a great resource on Arm Wreckers Inc.

10 is all? 

I don't long toss weighted balls, therefor, I don't contribute to wrecking arms. Injury rate must be high in the SeaTac area. Don't give some "actually, injury is down in my workout facility" garbage. I call BS on that.

Hey Coach I don't want to get into the middle of this but there has been a lot of work done in this area. I will say this that IMO weighted balls should be done after puberty and after significant training. Dr. Bongonzi did his PHD thesis on these probably 30 years ago so the research on them goes way back.

 

My son's college program uses weighted sand balls and it is a very complicated program and it is not just going out and throwing weighted balls randomly. They use different sizes and weights.

 

 

I agree with you and have no issue with it. Here are my issues with weighted balls: Pre-pubescent kids throwing them, and anyone throwing them as a game of catch or Heaven forbid long toss. I totally agree with the proper use of them in building/stretching the arm, more or less as a weight training supplement. If I were to ever see a kid on the mound throwing a weighted ball 60' 6", I would feel it be my duty to scream my head off at the person who is allowing this to take place. Throw a football and call it a day!

Paul Reddick- "I would NEVER suggest someone throw a ball heavier than six ounces, like a baseball, actually throw it. I think that's a mistake. I think that's a big mistake." (2:12 of video posted below)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bnmh3ni53pA

In his 2007 book, Fastball Fitness, House clearly endorses the use of weighted balls.  Section IV of the book, pages 105 to 136, are devoted to the use of weighted balls. Chapter 11 contains research done by House and Dr. Coop DeRenne, and indicates they have been working together studying weighted balls since 1985.  Chapter 12 of the book is the Kreber article mentioned earlier.  Chapter 13 is a 2005 study by House and a guy named Eric Andrews.  The book contains several different weighted ball programs.  House endorses throwing weighted and underweight balls at full intensity.  Surprisingly, he even endorses using weighted balls from the mound.

 

Now, in this book, he is talking about 6 oz and 4 oz balls.  Some of these workouts include 26 6oz throws and 26 4 oz throws at maximum intensity, in one session.

 

I do not know what type of weighted ball routine House includes in this current deal that the NPA is selling.  But, I have no trouble believing that he has them throwing some type of weighted, and underweighted, balls.

 

 

My apologies to everyone in the thread. What I am going to do is write a lengthy post that hits on some points rather than arguing with the ad hominems and non sequitors that Coach Mills is bringing forth.

 

I am not big on social proof, but most people want to know that you have skin in the game before they listen to you. Logically this doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense, but it's good testimony, I suppose. So, some of my clients include Trevor Bauer, UCLA Golden Spikes winner and third pick in the MLB draft in 2011, Ryan Buchter, AAA Gwinnett Braves who is 5th in all of AAA in strikeout rate (we started work in the 2012 off-season, look up his stats year over year if you want to see something funny), and Chris Carns, who will be playing for the Area Code Games Kansas City Royals and was gunned as high as 93 MPH in a tournament at WSU (81-82 MPH in the 2012 off-season). We have many other pro, college, and HS clients, but that's a decent cross section of them.

 

(EDIT: I forgot, other social proof - I did part-time work in player development for a professional organization. Esteemed and trustworthy reader jdfromfla can verify the truth of this statement without disclosing who my employer was.)

 

And yes, we only have ten pro clients right now. You are welcome to list the pro clients you work with if you think it's relevant.

 

Let's get the facts straight.

 

Does the NPA House/Evans Program THROW Weighted Balls

 

In this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEQJAgIxX2A

 

At 10 minutes you can hear the following dialog:

 

"So in the training program, instead of just throwing various weighted balls, House and Evans designed exercises where players also hold on to the balls."

 

At 10:17 you can see an athlete throwing what is obviously not a 5 ounce baseball and is likely a 1+ lb. ball.

 

As MTH said, in Fastball Fitness, House talked about using these weighted balls for throwing purposes. Additionally, I believe USC has certified the NPA House/Evans program as being generally regarded as safe (note that injuries to the pitching arm while going through this program does NOT invalidate this finding; you'd have to compare populations amongst non-weighted ball users to make that claim).

 

Here is a training log from one of my clients who previously worked directly with Jamie Evans. I redacted his personal information, but you can clearly see he was instructed to throw balls well over 6 oz.

 

The evidence is very clear that the House/Evans program uses throws of weighted baseballs. Moving on...

 

Long Toss and/or Pitching with Weighted Baseballs

 

This is a strawman argument brought up by Coach Mills. Neither the House/Evans nor the Driveline Baseball program uses weighted baseballs in such a manner.

 

Safety of Overload Balls

 

Dr. Coop DeRenne's review study titled Effects of Under and Overweighted Implement Training on Pitching Velocity is very much worth reading.

 

Eric Cressey (performance coach to 100+ pro players, much less his large college and high school population) has said this on weighted baseball training:

 

http://www.ericcressey.com/wei...stupid-and-dangerous

 

All of our weighted baseball drills generally take place in the 7-11oz range.  I do, however, know some very bright minds in the field who will go heavier.

At Ron Wolforth's Ultimate Coaches' Bootcamp in 2012, I gave two presentations on various training modalities and data collection efforts. For those unaware, at our facility, we have wearable computers which calculate angular velocity and acceleration using accelerometers and gyroscopes, and we also have six high-speed video cameras with custom-build kinetic analysis software to measure joint loads on pitchers' arms. (This off-season will will have sEMG wireless sensors to measure muscle activity, which I am very much looking forward to.)

 

The data I presented showed an interesting counter-intuitive result; namely that throwing underweight implements were likely to be more dangerous than throwing overload implements. 

 

 

However, I will respond to one of Coach Mills' specific barbs:

Don't give some "actually, injury is down in my workout facility" garbage.

 

Sorry to disappoint, but when compared with the general population of above-average to elite high school and older baseball pitchers, our pitchers are greater than two standard deviations (95%+) less likely to suffer any arm injury.

 

My modus operandi is and always has been to present data. Coach Mills, if you have data that rebuts anything I posted, I'd love to see it. But if all you have is conjecture and quotes from Paul Reddick, then I don't think we can have a productive discussion.

Ah yes, I almost forgot. A pitching coach by the name of Derek Johnson used weighted baseball throws (but no holds) extensively with his pitchers.

I leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out where Derek Johnson coached baseball and how his results could be interpreted.

Found more data on the NPA House/Evans program collected by the same athlete:

 

 

Since HSBBW makes the inline images smaller, click here for a full version:

 

http://i.imgur.com/qDRbGKE.jpg

Great stuff Kyle. Like I said my son's college program is using something similar and they consistently have the lowest ERA and hardest throwers in their division. They routinely take borderline D1 pitchers and turn them into draft picks. 

 

Let's agree that the typical (non controversial) elements of a 10 week training and conditioning program will likely result in some performance increases. But, the question in this thread is, what is the incremental effect of overweight training? (I don't think anyone has a safety issue with underweight training)

 

Overweight training is done to strengthen one or more muscles.  And the weighted balls that we are talking about are less than a pound, so they could not be strengthening the lower body or torso.

Exactly which muscle in the arm is responsible for increased pitching velocity?

 

Is it possible that weighted balls are merely a way to change the pitcher's technique (ex. keep the hand back a little longer)?

Overweight training is done to strengthen one or more muscles.

Well, not necessarily. Overload training can be done to improve mechanical efficiency.

 

But, since you asked...

Exactly which muscle in the arm is responsible for increased pitching velocity?

The triceps extend the elbow and elbow extensor angular velocity is highly correlated with ball release velocity; the same can be said of the muscles that control internal rotation of the humerus. The latissmius dorsi is a large muscle group that is highly relevant when it comes to deceleration of the arm and supporting the posterior shoulder.

 

The muscles in the medial forearm (pronator-flexor mass) have been theorized to help reduce elbow valgus stress in various research articles.

 

All muscle groups that respond to overload (or underload, or any other) training.

 

EDIT: Missed this part.

Is it possible that weighted balls are merely a way to change the pitcher's technique (ex. keep the hand back a little longer)?

Absolutely. But that could be a physiological change as well. Inertial mass of the pitching wrist generally, but not always, increases with a heavier ball in the hand. Stress at MER is higher with a weighted ball, which could lead to increased ER flexibility (a well-known phenomenon even with regulation baseballs). Of course this opens up a can of worms with regards to potential injury risks that need to be managed, but let's save that for another time.

Also:

(I don't think anyone has a safety issue with underweight training)

I do. The data I presented indicates that underload/underweight training is likely to be more stressful on the connective tissue of the arm. Peak joint load with underload implements exceeds peak joint load with regulation (or overweight) baseballs. (Overweight baseballs increase total load but lower peak load.)

 

From a layman's POV, this intuitively makes sense when you consider we have pro athletes throwing 2 oz. baseballs up to 110 MPH. The arm still has to decelerate over the same period of time as it would with any other ball, including a regulation ball, and the arm is moving incredibly fast. Though peak load at MER is lower with the underload balls, it is vastly higher at max IR speeds and max elbow extensor speeds.

Great stuff Kyle