125 pitches over 3 days? That is not bad for a kid like this....
I don't know 4LC, but I think he is only being sensitive, because you have some people calling him and his son out... Do they have other motives? Jealousy? and I don't think he is talking about you PDad.
I know how 4LC feels, jealousy and game playing can ruin this game. It is rampant!
dano751,
125 pitches doesn't sound like alot but think about this. 50+ warmup pitches before the 2 games. All of the playing catch throws before the warmup pitches. 5-8 warmup pitches before every inning. How many times did he throw to first? You start adding all of that up and you get a more than 200+ pitches and then some. I think that is sometimes overlooked. Again, has nothing to do with this kid but just concern for kids arms in general.
125 pitches doesn't sound like alot but think about this. 50+ warmup pitches before the 2 games. All of the playing catch throws before the warmup pitches. 5-8 warmup pitches before every inning. How many times did he throw to first? You start adding all of that up and you get a more than 200+ pitches and then some. I think that is sometimes overlooked. Again, has nothing to do with this kid but just concern for kids arms in general.
quote:Originally posted by 4leafclover:
You know I try to keep my mouth shut, but sometimes the need necessitates saying something. My son did pitch 11 innings over a 3 day period with a day of rest in between. He pitched about 125 pitches. He has been pitching in HS, so it is not like he is not in pitching form. He is one of the ones that can handle it.
4leaf
Just my opinion here. Just because he can handle it does that mean he should.
I will tell you from first hand experience. P1s kid (P.5 Version 2) Was used like this during his 13U and 14U years and when he got to HS blew his elbow out, broke off the growth plate in his elbow. After surgery , a year off and painful rehab he is back to 100%. His plate is now bolted together so there is zero risk of that happening again so he might be 110% now.
According to his DR the growth plate injury is very common but people ignore it. He said if a kid (17 or younger) pitches more than 75 pitches in a week it is too much and they are risking severe damage. Because that growth plate is wide open until they reach 18 or 19 years old. But then again he also says kids shouldn't even throw a curveball until college age.. I have seen your son pitch (Poteet vs McKinney game 3 playoffs) and he is for sure a good. He should have a great future ahead of him. Just thought I would share that with you.
I would like to see what the McKinney coach would say about this. I am betting he wouldn't be happy.
Good Luck to Team Kelly this summer.
If you guys can listen to 1310AM the ticket you need to listen right now. In a few minutes they are going to talk about the overuse of young pitchers.
quote:Originally posted by Lamar Fan 08:
If you guys can listen to 1310AM the ticket you need to listen right now. In a few minutes they are going to talk about the overuse of young pitchers.
You are one step ahead of me Lamar.
Would someone point out to me the post where this kid was "called out"?
quote:Originally posted by Hawkman:
Then one of the three just became a corner outfielder.
Been there done that.
PDad it is certainly inferred... When you say, "Dads wake up"
Put the shoe on the other foot... If your kid was singled out on a MB like this... It might make you a little defensive?
Put the shoe on the other foot... If your kid was singled out on a MB like this... It might make you a little defensive?
quote:Originally posted by kirk:
I have a question about the 2007 Terry Morris Classic. How many teams had one certain pitcher throw 6 innings on Saturday and 6 innings on Monday?
Can you say Tommy-Johns.....if you say it real fast it doesn't sound so bad.
quote:Originally posted by JAFO:quote:Originally posted by kirk:
I have a question about the 2007 Terry Morris Classic. How many teams had one certain pitcher throw 6 innings on Saturday and 6 innings on Monday?
Can you say Tommy-Johns.....if you say it real fast it doesn't sound so bad.
Just call it TJ makes it even sound less threatening.
quote:Originally posted by Panther Dad:
Would someone point out to me the post where this kid was "called out"?
He wasn't "called out" and I think the reaction has been a bit much. I don't think jealousy has anything to do with it because I don't think most people reading this have any clue who this player is...I know I don't.
I think the issue is overuse. The symptoms of overuse do not always manifest themselves immediately. If you read knowledgable doctors and trainers in this area, many times it is months ro years down the road before injuries occur.
Are these injuries necessarily the result of overuse? Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but the statistics would tell you that the majority of the time, the injured players were good pitchers as youth (before their arms/bodies had matured) and the well-meaning, but uninformed coaches, used them too much in order to win games.
If 4leafclover is okay with his son throwing the number of pitches he did, that is his decision. Odds are, nothing bad will develop, but the discussion is relevant and I don't think anyone is calling the kid "out". Maybe just the coach.
http://www.wcnc.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/highschools/t...pohsbase.c858e4.html
Here is an article discussing two area players that had Tommy-John surgery....one paragraph in particular was interesting..
" Castleman and Tolleson said overuse might be to blame for their injuries. They've been playing baseball year-round since middle school, spending the off-season pitching for select teams. They pitched in several scouting showcases this summer, and Tolleson was also a member of the U.S. Junior National team."
Here is an article discussing two area players that had Tommy-John surgery....one paragraph in particular was interesting..
" Castleman and Tolleson said overuse might be to blame for their injuries. They've been playing baseball year-round since middle school, spending the off-season pitching for select teams. They pitched in several scouting showcases this summer, and Tolleson was also a member of the U.S. Junior National team."
Man I love this MB! 
Thanks kirk!
I will agree that my post was in anger and some ego (overly sensitive mother). But if you think the previous posters are concerned about Zach you are mistaken. Maybe the sarcasm written with was why I felt the need to defend my kid (or team), but what is okay for one kid is not always right for another. What I find odd, is that anyone can get on a website and think they know your kid and feel the need with "sarcasm" to question the decisions made when they really should be worrying about their own. My comments about the fun is that many of the kids seem to be lacking the JOY of baseball is this because the pressure from their parents is too great? Not for me to decide what is right for each kid.
Thank god for football!
I will take my husband and Zach's advice - Stay off these websites! Lesson learned the hard way.
Thank god for football!
I will take my husband and Zach's advice - Stay off these websites! Lesson learned the hard way.
I here you 4leaf. 
quote:He wasn't "called out" and I think the reaction has been a bit much. I don't think jealousy has anything to do with it because I don't think most people reading this have any clue who this player is...I know I don't.
It sounds like 4LC has personal experience with some of the posters... Sour grapes and/or jealousy could very well be their motive.
I don't know Zach's parents, but I have seen the kid play football and baseball. Let me tell you... When you take in account his size, moxie and arm strength I have never, ever seen a better QB prospect at his age. A pitching career, might not be in is plans.
Did you ever see Matt Stafford as a freshman?
quote:Originally posted by The Beast:
Did you ever see Matt Stafford as a freshman?
Also see GJ Kinne out at Canton/Gilmer as a freshman. I thnk he was better as a freshman than MS
quote:Did you ever see Matt Stafford as a freshman?
I saw MS as a Soph... This kid is taller and has better arm strength. I have seen ZL throw a football over 60 yards off his back foot. (all arm) Can he keep progressing like MS did? Thats the question...
So, there's no pressure in football, 4leaf? Our experience is just the opposite. My son is/was a 5A QB as well.....and I could write a book on football pettiness.
I am not "concerned" about your son -- that's up to you. But I still think it's ok to point out areas of concern as they relate to kids.
From my perspective, the originator of this aspect of the discussion intended to call attention to the larger subject (overuse of pitching) --- and did not even care that a player was identified by name. As for the guys you are targeting in your response, I have missed the history there.
I wish the best for your boy....in whatever sport.
I am not "concerned" about your son -- that's up to you. But I still think it's ok to point out areas of concern as they relate to kids.
From my perspective, the originator of this aspect of the discussion intended to call attention to the larger subject (overuse of pitching) --- and did not even care that a player was identified by name. As for the guys you are targeting in your response, I have missed the history there.
I wish the best for your boy....in whatever sport.
quote:I have seen ZL throw a football over 60 yards off his back foot. (all arm) Can he keep progressing like MS did? Thats the question...
He won't be throwing footballs 60 yds if he blows his elbow out in Summer Ball. I think people are missing the real point here. Lets protect these great athlete's arms.
I thought Team Kelley was loaded with pitching anyway? 
Don't know the kid or the parents.
No one is knocking the kid in the slightest. Not by any stretch of the imagination.
But I will question the coach for doing what he did. And I will question the parents for letting it happen.
I have known other parents who thought their kid was "one of the kids who can handle it". And they found out they were wrong, much to their kid's anguish.
If a parent goes along thinking their kid is one of the minority that can handle it, what happens if they turn out to be wrong? Pretty major consequences for being mistaken. Is it worth the risk? I think not.
No one is knocking the kid in the slightest. Not by any stretch of the imagination.
But I will question the coach for doing what he did. And I will question the parents for letting it happen.
I have known other parents who thought their kid was "one of the kids who can handle it". And they found out they were wrong, much to their kid's anguish.
If a parent goes along thinking their kid is one of the minority that can handle it, what happens if they turn out to be wrong? Pretty major consequences for being mistaken. Is it worth the risk? I think not.
quote:Originally posted by The Beast:
I thought Team Kelley was loaded with pitching anyway?
They sure are. We played them up there on Sunday. They have some really good pitchers. I think everyone except their catcher pitches and thats only because if he pitches who would catch.
They have more than one catcher. One from San Antonio and one from Southlake.
Well they only used the kid from South Garland. He is a great kid, P1s kid (P.5 Ver 2) played with him last summer.
quote:Originally posted by dano7051:quote:He wasn't "called out" and I think the reaction has been a bit much. I don't think jealousy has anything to do with it because I don't think most people reading this have any clue who this player is...I know I don't.
It sounds like 4LC has personal experience with some of the posters... Sour grapes and/or jealousy could very well be their motive.
I don't know Zach's parents, but I have seen the kid play football and baseball. Let me tell you... When you take in account his size, moxie and arm strength I have never, ever seen a better QB prospect at his age. A pitching career, might not be in is plans.
Well I started this and I have been accused, privately, that I am ducking all the heat that I caused. Here is my response to the minority of posters that think my original post was driven by jealousy, sour grapes, calling a kid out or his parents, calling a coach out:
1. Jealousy/sour grapes- none what so ever. Why would I be jealous, my son and my son's summer team compete in the 18U division of summer ball. However, I am very good friends with a lot of McKinney players and parents. By the way, the know nothing about last weekend, until they read last night or today. My motives are strictly for the kids.
2. Calling out kids- never, if anything I am the type of person that will call out posters for bad mouthing kids.
3. Calling out the parents- if you think throwing 6 innings on Saturday and 5 or 6 on Monday is alright, that is your right. However, this message board is to help educate all those who read and the majority of those who read want to know what is right and what is wrong within the baseball world. One poster earlier hit the nail on the head when suggested that the kid threw more than 125 pitches, that was just game situation. The pitches that weren't counted were warm-up pitches before each game, warm-up pitches before each inning and warm-up before the games he played in field...>200.
4. Calling out a coach- why not, they are the ones ultimately responsible for all the kids well being.
quote:4. Calling out a coach- why not, they are the ones ultimately responsible for all the kids well being.
That coach must be a rookie coach.
What big match up is this week.. I heard dbat 16 are agianst the 16 tigers. That is going to be game to watch
kirk,
As for the Joy in the game for the player:
The smile on my son's face this weekend in Burkburnet when I asked him about how it felt to play the field told me volumes about how much he valued and enjoyed playing baseball.
Over use & coaches, Danny pitched 4 innings about 60 pitches and the coach asked him how he felt, he told him he was a little tight but he could still go. The coach made a pitching change, thank you Trey & Lance. Later he admitted he was cramping up both in the shoulder and legs.....but he said he could go.
As for the kid in question, the game he pitched against DBAT wasn't a real hard one but he did go 6 and didn't look half bad for a 15 yr old. Later in the year he might have to put in more effort against a team like DBAT or the Tigers and most likely won't be available to start another game.
A good friend of my son's reminded me that the innings he pitches now aren't what matter it is the innings he pitches at the next level that count.
If the DBAT16 team had played together for as long as Team Kelley the outcome would have been different and the pitcher in question most likely won't have pitched again in Burkburnet. So, I guess it is DBATs fault he pitched 11+ innings.
The Team Kelly / DBAT game was fun to watch, the DBAT boys had fun and realized they need to play better together. The DBAT boys looked liked they enjoying playing more than Team Kelley enjoined winning. If 4Leaf could have been around the DBAT group she would have no doubt those boys enjoy playing the game way more than their fathers & mothers enjoy being around the game.
Congratulations Team Kelley on a good win.
The smile on my son's face this weekend in Burkburnet when I asked him about how it felt to play the field told me volumes about how much he valued and enjoyed playing baseball.
Over use & coaches, Danny pitched 4 innings about 60 pitches and the coach asked him how he felt, he told him he was a little tight but he could still go. The coach made a pitching change, thank you Trey & Lance. Later he admitted he was cramping up both in the shoulder and legs.....but he said he could go.
As for the kid in question, the game he pitched against DBAT wasn't a real hard one but he did go 6 and didn't look half bad for a 15 yr old. Later in the year he might have to put in more effort against a team like DBAT or the Tigers and most likely won't be available to start another game.
A good friend of my son's reminded me that the innings he pitches now aren't what matter it is the innings he pitches at the next level that count.
If the DBAT16 team had played together for as long as Team Kelley the outcome would have been different and the pitcher in question most likely won't have pitched again in Burkburnet. So, I guess it is DBATs fault he pitched 11+ innings.
The Team Kelly / DBAT game was fun to watch, the DBAT boys had fun and realized they need to play better together. The DBAT boys looked liked they enjoying playing more than Team Kelley enjoined winning. If 4Leaf could have been around the DBAT group she would have no doubt those boys enjoy playing the game way more than their fathers & mothers enjoy being around the game.
Congratulations Team Kelley on a good win.
quote:Originally posted by 4leafclover:
You know I try to keep my mouth shut, but sometimes the need necessitates saying something. My son did pitch 11 innings over a 3 day period with a day of rest in between. He pitched about 125 pitches. He has been pitching in HS, so it is not like he is not in pitching form. He is one of the ones that can handle it.
I think the thing that truly bugs me is that many of you feel the need to bash our decision, especially when I know who so many of you are and have been approached to have Zach play with you (or have played with you in the past NTXdad). It is unbelievable.
I hate baseball for this reason. Zach can handle it, he doesn't care what anyone else thinks. I can assure you he won't go around badmouthing your kid or another team. Just as most kids won't, its the parents that take all the fun and joy out of baseball. I wonder if your kids really love it as much as you do? Time will tell.
Sorry 4Leaf,
You must be confusing me with someone else. I don't know you or your family, just the information that a young man had pitched 6 innings on Sat and then again on Monday, as posted.
Sorry you took the comments wrong but that is quite a workload for a pitcher to take on in that short a window. IMHO
Best of luck to you and Team Kelley this summer.
PS - My son is having a great time playing baseball as well!
dano7051 - I have read your posts on hornfan regarding 4leafson ... Mack Brown visiting his football practice...WOW!
quote:Originally posted by cheapseats:
dano7051 - I have read your posts on hornfan regarding 4leafson ... Mack Brown visiting his football practice...WOW!
Makes since he is out looking at freshman since he is loaded at QB for the next 4 years.
dano - If UT is interested in him that sounds like reason enough to be conservative and prevent overuse injuries. imo.
Team Kelly's SS, Matt Lipka, who also goes to McKinney High hit 4 home runs in the tourny. Stud
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once.........
and.............
I played with "Rookie" in High School, college, was his college roomate for one year. Got him a job as a batting practice pitcher after his pro career which eventually got him into the Rangers organization as a minor league player again.
It's my understanding he coaches Team Kelley. I know nothing about the team or for that matter any 16 year old kid out there today. And, I haven't heard from ole' "Rookie" in a few years but I will say..........he is one of a kind.
But I do know if I would have thrown Kershaw, Walden, Tolleson, or any pitcher 125 pitches in 3 days I would have had a gun pointed at me.........
And I ain't talkin' no radar gun. Because it would have been used while the 125 pitches were being thrown anyway.
Did any of our pitchers throw 125 in 1 day? Probably, but rarely.
Food for thought.........
Example #1-
1 day, 1 start, 50 warm ups, 125 total game pitches..........
Example #2-
3 days, 2 starts, 50 total warm ups (25 before each game), 125 total game pitches
I ask you all, what's the difference? Essentially the same amount of pitches were thrown........but one had a days rest along with them.
I have my opinion, but you all don't want to hear that. Although, I'm interested in yours.
and.............
I played with "Rookie" in High School, college, was his college roomate for one year. Got him a job as a batting practice pitcher after his pro career which eventually got him into the Rangers organization as a minor league player again.
It's my understanding he coaches Team Kelley. I know nothing about the team or for that matter any 16 year old kid out there today. And, I haven't heard from ole' "Rookie" in a few years but I will say..........he is one of a kind.
But I do know if I would have thrown Kershaw, Walden, Tolleson, or any pitcher 125 pitches in 3 days I would have had a gun pointed at me.........
And I ain't talkin' no radar gun. Because it would have been used while the 125 pitches were being thrown anyway.
Did any of our pitchers throw 125 in 1 day? Probably, but rarely.
Food for thought.........
Example #1-
1 day, 1 start, 50 warm ups, 125 total game pitches..........
Example #2-
3 days, 2 starts, 50 total warm ups (25 before each game), 125 total game pitches
I ask you all, what's the difference? Essentially the same amount of pitches were thrown........but one had a days rest along with them.
I have my opinion, but you all don't want to hear that. Although, I'm interested in yours.
I'm sure he wasn't resting, i'll bet he was playing firstbase.
quote:Originally posted by The Beast:
I'm sure he wasn't resting, i'll bet he was playing firstbase.
Let's say he did play first but never threw a ball or rolled a grounder in between innings.