The difference is the arm started to heal and the muscle or other soft tissue is more easily torn again...and worse. Overall the Team Trainers, DR's and PT's I now tell him young 15 year arms are at more risk if the throw 125 over three days verse a one day situation.
But again most of the 125 might have been straight fastballs in which case it could change the degree of injury.
Every time a pitcher throws he "injuries" his arm it is just a matter of degree and then recovery from that injury to pitch again.
Over time and practice arm strength can be gained and recovery understood by the body and the pitcher but we are all still talking about injury and recovery.
So, Gut what do you think?
Well PD enough on tis topic. From my perspective the parents know their son better than anyone that has made a comment on this topic. Does anyone know his recovery time? From what I understand this player just might be the starting QB for the Texas Longhorns in 2010. Zach is a 15 year old player that does not need this kind of chatter, which is all that it is. It amazing how many Dr. Conway's we suddenly have on the discussion board. 
Ok, I'll close the topic...but it seems every time a discussion turns in a different direction someone wants to end it. Maybe that's how it should be. I suppose we've had enough arguments about pitch count anyway. I'll give KG one more day to add his final thoughts.
On a parting note, what does the 11-inning issue have to do with the Texas Longhorns?
On a parting note, what does the 11-inning issue have to do with the Texas Longhorns?
quote:
So, Gut what do you think?
I agree with what you are saying........
If I bench press 150 pounds a total of 50 times, my body is more likely to recover if it's done in one day with rest over time.
If I bench press 25 times today and 25 times day after tomorrow, I'm gonna be a sore ***.
Now here is the most important part of this topic that never gets talked about...........
When I bench press the 25 times the day after tomorrow, my technique will not be the same due to the suffered soreness.
So, when a pitcher throws on 1 days rest I worry more about the lack of proper mechanics due to stiffness, soreness, ect. to put the arm in risky situation.
In short, I would usually shy away from doing so with any young arm.
Heck, I can remember when I was a young boy in Kansas growing up. We played sandlot baseball and I pitched everyday.
And I do remember "the bulldog" Orel Hershiser pitching on very short rest in 1988 when the L.A. Dodgers beat Oakland in the W.S.Also, if these doctors are so smart, why are there more pitchers and the DL this year in MLB than ever?
But again, that's me. If a kid and family want to do so, it doens't bother me too much.
I believe there are much more concerning situations that need tending too than young kids and their arms. Such as the state of this game and where it is going. Or developing the kids character so that if his arm is used properly he might use it to it's full potential. And so on, but you all don't want to hear that.
Heck, let's talk about SWAC........
In the year 2007, we have General Managers in amatuer baseball.
If that doesn't tell you something about amatuer baseball, I don't know what will.
These posts piqued my interest in finding out more. Just a few questions:
Don't know this kid but he obviously beat the Dbat team and ruffled some feathers in doing so. Seems like Dbat maybe trying to recruit him - in some backhanded way.
Which of you guys is a doctor? You can get many different opinions depending on who you go to. Many players abroad subscribe to pitching 150 in the bullpen - Check it out their injuries aren't as great as over here.
Didn't some of the Dbat guys pitch in two games in the playoffs? How did the Dbat coaches react to that?
The link to football may just make this kids arm stronger. Many MLB coaches like their guys to throw the oblong to strengthen the other arm muscles, so in fact this kid may be better equipped.
Who are some of these posters? I get that 4lc isthe kid's mom. Who is Ken Guthrie- is he a coach, or just another old player.
The other's I assume are dad's. Dad's that might want to play with this kid or possibly on that team if they really are the best. Is Team Kelly a 15U team? Do they have other teams? Obviously they attract some talent, maybe that is why all the hubub. Who coaches Team Kelly? What is his background?
In my opinion(one, like most of these that are just from a bunch of old farts with nothing better to do) if the parents and the coach think he can handle it, he can. Most injuries are precipitated by some kind of warning (tired legs, sore arm, tinge of pain). The kid and parent have to be in tune with the player's body. Was this kid okay after all was said and done or was he in marked pain?
Don't know this kid but he obviously beat the Dbat team and ruffled some feathers in doing so. Seems like Dbat maybe trying to recruit him - in some backhanded way.
Which of you guys is a doctor? You can get many different opinions depending on who you go to. Many players abroad subscribe to pitching 150 in the bullpen - Check it out their injuries aren't as great as over here.
Didn't some of the Dbat guys pitch in two games in the playoffs? How did the Dbat coaches react to that?
The link to football may just make this kids arm stronger. Many MLB coaches like their guys to throw the oblong to strengthen the other arm muscles, so in fact this kid may be better equipped.
Who are some of these posters? I get that 4lc isthe kid's mom. Who is Ken Guthrie- is he a coach, or just another old player.
The other's I assume are dad's. Dad's that might want to play with this kid or possibly on that team if they really are the best. Is Team Kelly a 15U team? Do they have other teams? Obviously they attract some talent, maybe that is why all the hubub. Who coaches Team Kelly? What is his background?
In my opinion(one, like most of these that are just from a bunch of old farts with nothing better to do) if the parents and the coach think he can handle it, he can. Most injuries are precipitated by some kind of warning (tired legs, sore arm, tinge of pain). The kid and parent have to be in tune with the player's body. Was this kid okay after all was said and done or was he in marked pain?
SWAC / PD
My response didn't mention the kid and I was trying to go in the "other" direction,
KG, Thanks for sharing your thoughts and I agree with you even more than it might seem.
I would love to see my son build his arm strength up with some long toss at various times of the year. I have been reading and trying to get him to follow more along the Dick Mills / old school approach to being a pitcher which includes working from the mound inbetween starts.
I think we need to "use" pitch counts in both directions, if a kid starts a game he needs to throw 70 or 80 pitches at least...as long as they aren't all in like 2 innings and the coach doesn't think the kid is over throwing. On the high side, well going 110 might be fine in the right game situation.
This isn't pitch counts it is about proper use and not just some young UT wanna be.
The Terry Morris Classic was a great starting point for a lot of these teams. Even with the softball format of playing almost around the clock. It was amazing that the organization got this tournament in under those conditions. Playing a late game followed by a regular schedule the next day might have gotten some of these boys attention. Desire and need can overcome a lot. Playing on Hays was alot like playing on a sandlot in Kansas...or Oklahoma.
As for GM's in amatuer baseball...I asure you would tell me, and you might be right, that I'm not qualified to speak on the subject.
However, having a guy like SWAC (instead of a wanna be coach) talk directly to my son about baseball instead of his dad really made sense for us. 
Now it will be amazing if I actually get in the last word on KG.
My response didn't mention the kid and I was trying to go in the "other" direction,
KG, Thanks for sharing your thoughts and I agree with you even more than it might seem.
I would love to see my son build his arm strength up with some long toss at various times of the year. I have been reading and trying to get him to follow more along the Dick Mills / old school approach to being a pitcher which includes working from the mound inbetween starts.
I think we need to "use" pitch counts in both directions, if a kid starts a game he needs to throw 70 or 80 pitches at least...as long as they aren't all in like 2 innings and the coach doesn't think the kid is over throwing. On the high side, well going 110 might be fine in the right game situation.
This isn't pitch counts it is about proper use and not just some young UT wanna be.
The Terry Morris Classic was a great starting point for a lot of these teams. Even with the softball format of playing almost around the clock. It was amazing that the organization got this tournament in under those conditions. Playing a late game followed by a regular schedule the next day might have gotten some of these boys attention. Desire and need can overcome a lot. Playing on Hays was alot like playing on a sandlot in Kansas...or Oklahoma.
As for GM's in amatuer baseball...I asure you would tell me, and you might be right, that I'm not qualified to speak on the subject.
However, having a guy like SWAC (instead of a wanna be coach) talk directly to my son about baseball instead of his dad really made sense for us.
Now it will be amazing if I actually get in the last word on KG.
I heard the shortstop that was coming to Dbat-16 is going elsewhere.
My opinions for what they are worth.
4leafclover is a knowledgeable baseball mom, a great parent and would allow nothing detrimental to her son. Her son is an outstanding player and a great kid. ZL is a wonderful team mate and mom is the type parent that coaches and other parents really appreciate.
The Kelley coach is very protective of his pitchers and all his players. Players love playing for him and parents enjoy his refreshing approach to the game.
This thread was steered in the direction it was in order to put Team Kelley (15U) in as negative light as possible. I can only assume that some on this board have a hidden agenda, Tigerbalm seems to have it figured out.
SWAC’s comment is right on target: “From my perspective the parents know their son better than anyone that has made a comment on this topic. Does anyone know his recovery time? From what I understand this player just might be the starting QB for the Texas Longhorns in 2010. Zach is a 15 year old player that does not need this kind of chatter, which is all that it is. It amazing how many Dr. Conway's we suddenly have on the discussion board”.
4leafclover is a knowledgeable baseball mom, a great parent and would allow nothing detrimental to her son. Her son is an outstanding player and a great kid. ZL is a wonderful team mate and mom is the type parent that coaches and other parents really appreciate.
The Kelley coach is very protective of his pitchers and all his players. Players love playing for him and parents enjoy his refreshing approach to the game.
This thread was steered in the direction it was in order to put Team Kelley (15U) in as negative light as possible. I can only assume that some on this board have a hidden agenda, Tigerbalm seems to have it figured out.
SWAC’s comment is right on target: “From my perspective the parents know their son better than anyone that has made a comment on this topic. Does anyone know his recovery time? From what I understand this player just might be the starting QB for the Texas Longhorns in 2010. Zach is a 15 year old player that does not need this kind of chatter, which is all that it is. It amazing how many Dr. Conway's we suddenly have on the discussion board”.
Catcher28 & Tigerbalm,
How much of this thread have either of you read?
This really has very little to do with either the pitcher in question or the organization he plays for and most of the posts have tried to steer it back on coarse.
There have been many posts that praised the pitcher and offered Congratulations to Team Kelley.
Sometimes when people protest to much...well I think Shakespeare got it right.
Again, the Terry Morris Classic was a classic tournament. But and conversation about pitchers, use or over use and pitch counts will run an interesting coarse on this Blog.
How much of this thread have either of you read?
This really has very little to do with either the pitcher in question or the organization he plays for and most of the posts have tried to steer it back on coarse.
There have been many posts that praised the pitcher and offered Congratulations to Team Kelley.
Sometimes when people protest to much...well I think Shakespeare got it right.
Again, the Terry Morris Classic was a classic tournament. But and conversation about pitchers, use or over use and pitch counts will run an interesting coarse on this Blog.
Beast. sent you a pm
The bottom line.....and I get to have the last word here 
God is the only one that knows how many pitches each individual arm can withstand -- not mom and dad, not doctors Conway or Frankenstein, not your summer OR HS coach....not Simon Cowell. ZL's mom is no smarter than you or me. If parents or summer coaches knew, we'd have fewer HS TJ.....if doctors knew, we'd have fewer pro TJ. So....if only God knows -- well, who has the pipeline? Obvious answer, we all do. So, we pray for our kids and for the strength to do what we believe is right. We trust coaches and doctors. Are we/they always right? Obviously not -- talk to Mr. Tolleson or Mr. Diamond. Some think God isn't concerned with HS baseball.....well, He cares about the sparrows....umm.....different subject perhaps. Some of us will have interesting conversations with Him one day.
The wise approach, in my humble opinion, is to follow guidelines that have been established over the decades.....regarding conditioning, pitch count, recovery time, etc. And if those things are violated over and over by a coach -- simply ask yourself -- do I accept the risk for my son? Most of us realize that life is not without risk.
And before I fly away into philosophy -- I have opinions on agendas here -- right or wrong:
There is no DBAT agenda....any more than a Mustang or Tiger or Marshal or Team Kelly agenda. If you love conspiracy, there is no use arguing that point further.
I resent a few simple insinuations that were put forth in this thread (call me overly sensitive). I resent the idea that one's summer affiliation should preclude a discussion about pitching overuse. I resent the idea that someone ELSE's kid loves the game more or is a better teammate because he may have more talent. I resent the fact that anytime anyone mentions DBAT, the discussion is dismissed because there is hidden "motive".
This is a HS baseball website -- for the primary purpose of educating some on the "process" of HS baseball -- and all that it entails. But is also a place where we can kid one another, joke about circumstnaces, and have serious discussions on baseball-related issues. At least I hope that's the case. I resent the idea that I should be a doctor or a former professional player or a psychologist to offer opinions here.
Yesterday, a well-known instructor in the area called me....upset that someone had posted using his name as a source of reference. I did not see the post -- it was deleted -- but it was reportedly negative and judgmental. This man has never posted here, yet someone thought it would be "funny" to drag him into the fray. I think that is incredibly sad and pathetic. This guy works with kids from ALL organizations and tries to help all kids, regardless of their current skill set, their HS, their summer team, or their economics.
The pitch count argument is repetitive. The conspiracty theories are reaches. The idea that people here dislike a kid because he's good is shaky at best. Tigerbalm, catcher28 -- you are relatively new here -- and always welcome. But if came onboard to accuse.....well, we have plenty like you around. I'm sure you have positive ideas to contribute.
DBAT people -- please use your head in your posts, understanding that you do not necessarily represent the opinions and views of many here. Speak for yourself....and let Cade and Kirk and Kyle speak for DBAT.
Tiger people, Mustang people, others -- likewise.
I am not intimidated by serious discussion here. It makes the silliness worthwhile for some. But let's avoid fingerpointing, unnecessary innuendo, and condescending attitudes. Let's be better examples.
J -- I apologize on behalf of the person that felt led to represent your views inappropriately. I will do whatever I can to help identify that person(s).
New posters -- baseball is unique and wonderful and we become passionate about it. And....shhh....we're STILL the best people around.
Topic closed. Oops, sorry I couldn't give you the opportunity to agree with me in this case!
-Randy
God is the only one that knows how many pitches each individual arm can withstand -- not mom and dad, not doctors Conway or Frankenstein, not your summer OR HS coach....not Simon Cowell. ZL's mom is no smarter than you or me. If parents or summer coaches knew, we'd have fewer HS TJ.....if doctors knew, we'd have fewer pro TJ. So....if only God knows -- well, who has the pipeline? Obvious answer, we all do. So, we pray for our kids and for the strength to do what we believe is right. We trust coaches and doctors. Are we/they always right? Obviously not -- talk to Mr. Tolleson or Mr. Diamond. Some think God isn't concerned with HS baseball.....well, He cares about the sparrows....umm.....different subject perhaps. Some of us will have interesting conversations with Him one day.
The wise approach, in my humble opinion, is to follow guidelines that have been established over the decades.....regarding conditioning, pitch count, recovery time, etc. And if those things are violated over and over by a coach -- simply ask yourself -- do I accept the risk for my son? Most of us realize that life is not without risk.
And before I fly away into philosophy -- I have opinions on agendas here -- right or wrong:
There is no DBAT agenda....any more than a Mustang or Tiger or Marshal or Team Kelly agenda. If you love conspiracy, there is no use arguing that point further.
I resent a few simple insinuations that were put forth in this thread (call me overly sensitive). I resent the idea that one's summer affiliation should preclude a discussion about pitching overuse. I resent the idea that someone ELSE's kid loves the game more or is a better teammate because he may have more talent. I resent the fact that anytime anyone mentions DBAT, the discussion is dismissed because there is hidden "motive".
This is a HS baseball website -- for the primary purpose of educating some on the "process" of HS baseball -- and all that it entails. But is also a place where we can kid one another, joke about circumstnaces, and have serious discussions on baseball-related issues. At least I hope that's the case. I resent the idea that I should be a doctor or a former professional player or a psychologist to offer opinions here.
Yesterday, a well-known instructor in the area called me....upset that someone had posted using his name as a source of reference. I did not see the post -- it was deleted -- but it was reportedly negative and judgmental. This man has never posted here, yet someone thought it would be "funny" to drag him into the fray. I think that is incredibly sad and pathetic. This guy works with kids from ALL organizations and tries to help all kids, regardless of their current skill set, their HS, their summer team, or their economics.
The pitch count argument is repetitive. The conspiracty theories are reaches. The idea that people here dislike a kid because he's good is shaky at best. Tigerbalm, catcher28 -- you are relatively new here -- and always welcome. But if came onboard to accuse.....well, we have plenty like you around. I'm sure you have positive ideas to contribute.
DBAT people -- please use your head in your posts, understanding that you do not necessarily represent the opinions and views of many here. Speak for yourself....and let Cade and Kirk and Kyle speak for DBAT.
Tiger people, Mustang people, others -- likewise.
I am not intimidated by serious discussion here. It makes the silliness worthwhile for some. But let's avoid fingerpointing, unnecessary innuendo, and condescending attitudes. Let's be better examples.
J -- I apologize on behalf of the person that felt led to represent your views inappropriately. I will do whatever I can to help identify that person(s).
New posters -- baseball is unique and wonderful and we become passionate about it. And....shhh....we're STILL the best people around.
Topic closed. Oops, sorry I couldn't give you the opportunity to agree with me in this case!
-Randy