This article might be behind a paywall, but it's a doozy.
https://theathletic.com/136345...jor-league-baseball/
https://twitter.com/Jomboy_/st.../1194348775965437952
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If you ain’t cheating you ain’t trying?
The Astros are becoming the new evil empire
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Btw why not give manager, catcher and pitcher a headset? This eliminates signs and speeds up the game.
Manager calls fb outside low and then pitcher says yes or no, catcher just listens.
I soured on them back when Gurriel did his mocking "Asian eyes" HR celebration back a couple of years ago. The Usuna incident, and now this, make them a tough team to like.
Dominik85 posted:The Astros are becoming the new evil empire
Btw why not give manager, catcher and pitcher a headset? This eliminates signs and speeds up the game.
Manager calls fb outside low and then pitcher says yes or no, catcher just listens.
Because often the Catchers have a better feel for calling the game than the Manager. And there is every reason to believe that a message being sent via headset could be intercepted anyways.
57special posted:I soured on them back when Gurriel did his mocking "Asian eyes" HR celebration back a couple of years ago. The Usuna incident, and now this, make them a tough team to like.
This is probably not fair and oberblown by the media but the public image of the astros really suffered in the last year due to quite a few negative things.
It probably isn't as bad but the small things are piling up.
57special posted:I soured on them back when Gurriel did his mocking "Asian eyes" HR celebration back a couple of years ago. The Usuna incident, and now this, make them a tough team to like.
This is probably not fair and oberblown by the media but the public image of the astros really suffered in the last year due to quite a few negative things.
It probably isn't as bad but the small things are piling up.
A year ago they were the super progressive super nerds, now the media portray them as cheating misogynists, that is not a good development.
Still it would be wrong to reduce them to this, yes they are acting merciless like a hedge fond, but they also build one of the best teams of all time and getting osuna on a discount was only a small piece of it.
AS a guy with two half Asian, BB playing sons, I can assure you that seeing what Gurriel did was not a small thing. They have had mostly positive experiences in BB, but it seems like every year or so, some jackass has to make an unkind comment involving race.
That Gurriel chose to do what he did on the biggest possible stage read loud and clear on our TV screen.
3and2Fastball posted:Dominik85 posted:The Astros are becoming the new evil empire
Btw why not give manager, catcher and pitcher a headset? This eliminates signs and speeds up the game.
Manager calls fb outside low and then pitcher says yes or no, catcher just listens.
Because often the Catchers have a better feel for calling the game than the Manager. And there is every reason to believe that a message being sent via headset could be intercepted anyways.
The NFL uses headsets to communicate with QBs and sideline coaches, and so far as I have heard there have been no issues (yet) with transmissions being intercepted. (Although I do seem to recall allegations over the years that visiting teams' signals were deliberately degraded?)
Having signals relayed electronically would take away the element of "legitimate" sign-stealing by a runner on 2d. That would be a shame, because that is a fun game within the game. But technology makes it too easy now for teams to steal signals in other ways. (Ten years ago who would have expected MLB would need to ban some kinds of wristwatches from dugouts?). Like robo-umps, some form of electronic pitch-calling seems inevitable to me. I'm ambivalent about both of those changes, but I think they are going to happen.
Dominik85 posted:The Astros are becoming the new evil empire
Btw why not give manager, catcher and pitcher a headset? This eliminates signs and speeds up the game.
Manager calls fb outside low and then pitcher says yes or no, catcher just listens.
Good luck getting a pitcher to wear a headset
It would not surprise me to begin to see guys wearing ear pods while playing the game. I know old school guys will shout no way but in this new age where they wear them all the time I would be surprised. Was watching a practice the other day, not my son's school, and the players had ear pods in during warm up throws. I know one outfielder had one in while taking fly balls. It is becoming a thing for them to wear them almost all the time. So it would be no big deal for a pitcher to wear one while pitching and the coach be able to give him signals. Welcome to new age.
PABaseball posted:Dominik85 posted:The Astros are becoming the new evil empire
Btw why not give manager, catcher and pitcher a headset? This eliminates signs and speeds up the game.
Manager calls fb outside low and then pitcher says yes or no, catcher just listens.
Good luck getting a pitcher to wear a headset
I think it could just be a small earpiece, or maybe something sewn into a cap that worked by bone conduction. Some Ps would probably refuse--at least until they got rocked a couple of times by having their signs stolen, or until their teams required them to to do it.
Lots of players hated batting helmets initially, too. My guess would be that MLB will pilot electronically transmitted signs in MiLB, then maybe allow MLB teams to use it if they wish. Eventually everyone would do it--why take the risk of having signs stolen if you don't have to?
Fine them eight figures, forfeit all draft picks for several years, and forbid any international signings for a like period. Unwind all trades at the option of the other team.
This wasn't isolated; it happened in EVERY SINGLE HOME GAME. Think about this: every pitcher who threw against them at home had EVERY pitch signaled. (I assume knowing what pitch was coming aids a batter.) That means that EVERY pitchers' stats were adversely affected and, in turn, their season stats, which, in turn leads to a lower market valuation during negotiations or even being labeled as ineffective and cut.
In other words, this isn't a victimless crime; guys lost money, some guys would he cut, ASTRO hitters traded to other teams have inflated worth.
This isn't one guy putting sandpaper in his glove; it's an entire organization with a fraudulent product put on the field. The scope and depth is breathtaking - almost RICO like.
https://twitter.com/MaxWildste...179817941028864?s=09
This goes to the very integrity of the game; it's the flip side of the Black Sox scandal. (You dont think nefarious people would take advantage upon learning this "system?" Bull. Simple statistical analysis would show wide discrepancies in home and away batting stats. Not a big leap to understanding why. [Plus, every player knew and could place their bets accordingly - or the player's best friend, cousin, bookie.])
To me, on par or worse than PED scandals. You still needed to hit the ball back then without KNOWING the pitch.
Goosegg posted:Simple statistical analysis would show wide discrepancies in home and away batting stats. Not a big leap to understanding why.
Some astonishing examples:
Goosegg, I'd think you are right about how MLB should respond if these allegations prove out. But I doubt they would impose more than a token penalty. To rewrite the 2017 World Series would just be too big a publicity hit. My prediction (which I would be happy to be wrong about) is that MLB and the Astros jointly try to argue that any cheating had a minimal impact (to whatever extent the stats can be massaged) , then maybe impose a fine and dock a couple of draft picks. Rob Manfred is no Kennesaw Mountain Landis -- the current Commissioner is too beholden to the owners to be able to really clean house. (And if the owners do want to crack down, would Manfred be willing to take the heat he would get? Landis has already completed a career as a federal judge; the current Commissioner isn't doing this as his second Act.)
I think other teams/owners will be reluctant to go along with penalties on the theory that a) it would be "bad for baseball" (not saying I agree with that reasoning) and b) the prevailing thinking seems to be that "everyone cheats" to some extent, and so no one should snitch. If the players' union seeks harsher penalties to protect its members who suffered because of the cheating, then maybe things look different. But penalizing the team means, in effect, penalizing some big stars, who also are players' union members...
Maybe it comes down to how many teams have tried something similar in recent years? If the Astros really are an outlier, they may see harsher penalties. But if the Astros are just better at stealing signs than other teams who have tried to do the same thing? Then not much comes of this.
I also wonder what will happen to the stats of Astros' hitters? Altuve, Bregman, maybe others look like potential Hall of Famers--does this affect how their careers are evaluated? And any of the Houston position players could face some tough questions when they hit the market as free agents--maybe teams should just disregard their home stats?
As I said, I'd be happy to be wrong. Your suggestions on penalties are much more in line with what I would like to see.
Chico Escuela posted:
Maybe it comes down to how many teams have tried something similar in recent years? If the Astros really are an outlier, they may see harsher penalties. But if the Astros are just better at stealing signs than other teams who have tried to do the same thing? Then not much comes of this.
I also wonder what will happen to the stats of Astros' hitters? Altuve, Bregman, maybe others look like potential Hall of Famers--does this affect how their careers are evaluated? And any of the Houston position players could face some tough questions when they hit the market as free agents--maybe teams should just disregard their home stats?
As I said, I'd be happy to be wrong. Your suggestions on penalties are much more in line with what I would like to see.
I think that this is exactly right...If Houston really is an outlier (which I doubt) then throw the book at them. However, if a number of teams are engaged in some form of this then a harsh penalty will almost ensure that the "outing" will continue and make the situation even messier. I find it hard to believe that there are any teams that are not observing and trying to decipher signs from the clubhouse TV.
This was 2017, right?
Clearly, they didn’t have an advantage at home this postseason.
I expect a hefty fine and maybe they lose some draft picks similar to what happened to Pats.
hshuler posted:This was 2017, right?
Clearly, they didn’t have an advantage at home this postseason.
...
I thought about that, too. But in Houston they faced Strasburg and Scherzer for all four games, so maybe even cheating wasn't enough.
As a Rays fan, I have to point out that Houston won all 3 games at home to win the 2019 ALDS 3 games to 2. Just sayin'...
It was a strange post season. I think I saw that only two teams had winning home playoff records this year - Yanks and Rays. I also saw a video on twitter of Astro's banging the garbage can vs yanks this year albeit in a 7-0 loss to Yanks.
The Astros 2019 regular season home/road split was .741 to .580. That is drastically better than the home/road splits for the Twins and Rays (.568 and .593, respectively), but not all that out of line with the Yankees (.704).
No doubt people out there with far more statistics expertise than I (which is almost everyone) are already crunching numbers.
Coppolella was banned for life which was a just punishment. This is FAR worse that what he did. Luhnow, Hinch need lifetime bans.
Maybe Chris correa's claim was right and the astros did actually hack the cards first.
If MLB started handing out penalties against individuals for the kind of cheating alleged to have happened, where would they stop? I assume just about every player (position players, at least) who was on a roster for a home Astros game between 2017-19 knew about this and didn't report it. Same goes for most coaches and a lot of front office folks. Do you punish them all? Only the guys who banged on a trash can at some point? Any player who had an AB when the video picks up banging in the background? If MLB tries to punish a large number of players, the union will get involved. And proving involvement to the union's satisfaction would likely be tough.
Seems like at most the camera operators (who will be very low in the organization chart) and maybe a couple of top front office folks would take the fall (in the form of fines and maybe suspensions). Possibly Hinch also. If you started handing out lifetime bans or even substantial suspensions to everyone involved, there would be almost no one left to play or run the team.
Can't ban everyone, just the highest one who ordered it
Slap on the wrist and you are encouraging it to continue. Death penalty will make a statement.
Dominik85 posted:Can't ban everyone, just the highest one who ordered it
You’re thinking Luhnow and Hinch, then? Alex Cora, who was the bench coach in 2017, gets off with no penalty? None of the players get punished, even though they actively participated? That seems hard to sell to fans if MLB finds there was an organized, ongoing cheating scheme. And it tells players they are essentially immune.
I still think penalties (if the Astros are guilty) will fall mainly on the organization. To start parceling out individual punishments will open a gigantic can of worms. Perhaps taking it out on the Manager and the GM will be seen as enough for PR purposes. That would be hard for me to swallow though.
What about Beltran? It's amazing that 3 current MLB managers are implicated.
RossGA posted:Coppolella was banned for life which was a just punishment. This is FAR worse that what he did. Luhnow, Hinch need lifetime bans.
I hope I am not wrong but I cannot believe that the GM and the Manager knew or encouraged this practice.
And from what I have read, it's not unusual to steal signs. I guess thats why teams are constantly changing them. And if not they should. It is not illegal except if done electronically.
In that case, if they took the signs using the CF camera, or other electronic devices, during a game, not good.
I don't think the complaint is stealing signs. That's part of the game. It's placing a camera on the catcher (so no matter how he hides it) and using that to steal. (If the catcher was dropping the signs between his legs, or a shadow revealed them, that's fair game.)
I've seen some really long lengths college teams use to hide pitch calls (college coaches typically call every pitch).
I've also seen (actually after the game the players told the story) a player develop - during a game - a phone app which successfully predicted pitch type called by opposing bench.
Imagine how much of an advantage a batter has on the next pitch after watching an earlier pitch; which hes already decided to evaluate (i.e., not swing) in order to really calculate its trajectory and speed. A credit to pitchers who can win these matchups.
Correct me if y’all have read something different, but supposedly there was a video monitor at the mouth of the tunnel leading to the dugout. I have read that MLB puts an ~8 second delay on game cameras to help prevent teams from using them for sign stealing. That could mean someone installed a camera at the park for this purpose.
Luhnow may never have been in the dugout during games. But it’s hard to imagine Hinch and most others could spend 80+ games in the home dugout and never notice someone sitting at a monitor and either banging on a trash can regularly or relaying info to someone else who was doing so. The Sgt. Schultz defense (“I know nothing! I saw nothing!”) is hard to accept if the allegations are true. And if Hinch knew, wouldn’t he tell Luhnow at some point?
On the other hand... It’s also hard to believe this was kept secret since at least 2017. Guys get traded or dropped from the roster all the time. No one talked after they left the Astros? No player told his agent about this so they could use the threat of disclosure as leverage to encourage Houston to re-sign him?
Look no further than Jim Bouton for how players treat those who break the pinstripe Code of Silence.
TPM posted:RossGA posted:Coppolella was banned for life which was a just punishment. This is FAR worse that what he did. Luhnow, Hinch need lifetime bans.
I hope I am not wrong but I cannot believe that the GM and the Manager knew or encouraged this practice.
And from what I have read, it's not unusual to steal signs. I guess thats why teams are constantly changing them. And if not they should. It is not illegal except if done electronically.
In that case, if they took the signs using the CF camera, or other electronic devices, during a game, not good.
Depends on whether they used an existing camera or they installed a rig for this with camera, ear piece guy and so on. I have even read theories they used machine learning techniques to decifer the signals but that is pure speculation.
Need to wait for the investigation
The centerfield camera has been there for what 70 years - and baseball is just now starting to figure out how to cheat? C'mon - the '51 Giants are legendary for this kind of stuff with telescopes and telegraph....that's right the freaking telegraph. They went 23-5 at home after they started the scheme.
How about this: Get the ball - give a signal - pitch the ball. Do it in 5 seconds and it can't be stolen. Game speeds up....win/win.
As for banning for life and the theft of intellectual property the Cards did, there is no equivalancy at all and to compare them is nuts. Player evaluation changes the course of teams futures impacting 10's or hundreds of millions of dollars. Stealing signs is part of the game on the field like a stolen base.
MLB reportedly planning to interview Hinch, Cora and Beltran as part of its investigation:
The biggest punishment for the Astros is the image hit they already have experienced.
Just 1.5 years ago the Astros were the super Cinderella story from tank to super team who beat the league with smarts and revolutionized player dev and now everyone calls them cheaters.
Luhnow did a great job and might be the best gm of all time but he made some bad decisions for marginal gains. Imo here it shows that he is from mckinsey who are about optimizing numbers and not public relations.
The osuna case is a good example. This is nothing unique and other teams have done it too but it just was unnecessary, they already were a super team before that and could have gotten another good reliever for maybe one more solid but but not top prospect but luhnow like the does went for maximum value and thus pissed off several people not only in media but also inside the org including their ace verlander who very outspokenly ripped a Detroit DV offender.
The taubman incident was another incident were luhnow completely misjudged the public dynamic.
It might be not fair but now the sign stealing is seen in conjunction with those incidents and the Astros have the image of a heartless company with no morals who would do anything for winning legal or illegal kinda like a wall street finance company.
Now this might not be different from other orgs but other teams at least pretend to be that while luhnow doesn't even try and now that they were caught crossing the line the fantasy is open and people imagine he would do anything,
Luhnow is a very good GM but feel for sentiment and public relations is not his thing.
My thoughts- if your cheating than use it to your advantage. If you get caught cheating shame on you! Take your punishment.
What Mike Fires said- did the right thing vs snitched. Jury is still out on that.
Yelich vs Darvish goodness gracious! Let it go!
Baseball is a skilled sport. Correa knew what was coming and still struck out- so perhaps it all boils down to skill. Pitcher vs Batter.
Some additional data on 2017 Astros games, from Baseball Prospectus. (Link is to Slate reprint of article, because Baseball Prospectus is behind a paywall.)
meads posted:My thoughts- if your cheating than use it to your advantage. If you get caught cheating shame on you! Take your punishment.
What Mike Fires said- did the right thing vs snitched. Jury is still out on that.
Yelich vs Darvish goodness gracious! Let it go!Baseball is a skilled sport. Correa knee what was coming and still struck out- so perhaps it all boils down to skill. Pitcher vs Batter.
Point taken but it’s a HUGE advantage when the batter knows what's coming.
If not, why work so hard to protect signs?
The Yankees too?!?