The Convention on Over-Use

Not sure of exactly you would like us to do.

Good question, each forum has resident wisdom (Some more than others but still..) and experience. I see huge upswings in concerns for curves everytime the LLWS comes around but people like ASMI and Dr. Andrews think over-use is the "true" culprit.
A convention is an "understanding" between groups or parties. I see folks here talk about the problems in over-use experienced in their journey's all the time. One school of thought is that pitch limits will be "the answer", others see kids pitching in multiple associations and doing stuff like back to back on the weekends followed by a couple of association starts in the week as culprit, with little or no break year to year as the thing that throws you over the edge. My question was directed at the forum as to what THIS particular forum finds as most problematic, my hope is to compile these ideas with other ideas and provide it forum to forum free of charge via PDF, I've requested input from here, BB Fever, LetsTalkPitching, Baseball Debate and ASMI, I've requested input from Dick Mills, Jeager Sports, Paul Riddick, 3P's Pitching and your buddy Kevin O'Sullivan, I've also had others ask if Tom House/NPA or Marshall would like to participate. My intention ultimately is giving a parent some help.
It would be of interest to me to see if somehow these forums couldn't have a more positive impact possibly...who knows it might even get them to work together

I don't think many will disagree that over use is a big problem in youth pitching.The problem is,What is over use? That can vary form player to player.On one hand you want the players to get playing time,experience and get comfortable on the mound.On the other hand you don't want to over do it.

Aside from pitching in multiple games in a day and weekend,alot of pitchers are also the catchers for their teams.

I am not near knowledgable enough to say what is overuse.I would really like to hear opinions of the more knowledgable of what is.

jdfromfla,

Great thread JD, Bravo as one of my friends would have said.

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“I made a suggestion on the American Sports Medicine Institutes disscussion forum and I'd like the input from our site as to what it would look like”

Is this a Social experiment? Or is it you really care about kids? Or do you think a group of concerned parents can come to better mechanical or training conclusions than an orthopedic surgeon can and have in the past?

quote:

“How about an Internet wide campaign to speak to what over-use does and how it really adversely effects kids, particularly in this very crucial age range.”

As long as you restricted the discussion to that particular youth biological age group when in any discussion!
Knowing that all mechanics even the non-injurious ones put excessive stress on growth centers of the arm with this group over-use is a correct term because of the cumulative bone reformative process. This would not be true of an adult with non-injurious mechanics! Making over-use a bogus term.

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“I suggest that as many as can agree”

I will agree to come up with a statement and if someone uses truth in their statements I will consider it with open arms.

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“should come up with a statement that speaks to the negative aspects of over-use and "sport saturation", particularly within the pre-pubescent age range”

Lets talk all age groups and keep each one in its context remembering that this is HSBW!

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“I wonder if ego's could temper and good sense could prevail in the name of a healthier approach”

Why wonder you got my attention, I normally have to bring these things up within a plea for assistance, this is a very plausible idea along with many other reasons. Your attempt here is commendable but headed for a rocky path leading to a hill, good luck, I’m pulling for you.

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”So what would your statement be or look like?”

When a youth pitcher produces injurious force application and or along with premature bone stress, he has to deal with ballistic competitive time management in a much more restrictive way than if he produced non-injurious mechanics that at the same time produced only bone stress.
When the elbow’s growth centers finish solidifying at biologically aged 16 yo the chance of deformation goes exponentially down and if your force application at this time is non-injurious the duration of ballistic competition can then be raised, if your force application
Is injurious the duration should stay at the youth pitch count levels.

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“each forum has resident wisdom (Some more than others but still..) and experience”

I don’t know? I see Chris O’Leary (John yaya) here, there and everywhere selling his goods and recognize many others also, we also have posters that ask you to restrict postings here by staying over there if you displease them in some way by your practices.

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“I see huge upswings in concerns for curves every time the LLWS comes around but people like ASMI and Dr. Andrews think over-use is the "true" culprit”

In youth pitchers supination destroys the bone at the elbow as it is developing resulting in breakage and deformation. In adults supination closes down the range of motion and inflames the elbow, this is not over-use in adults it is Mal-use!
Therefore ASMI’s insistence on promoting this ill-conceived concept ensures its continuance.
If you and they were to use the correct term “supinated curve’ it would do a lot more for people to actually understand the truth knowing a “pronated curve” is safe to throw and that this principle is valid for any age group and does not become OK to now throw a supinated curve just because you turned Biologically 16.

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“A convention is an "understanding" between groups or parties”

I hear ya!!! Many of my most important posts concerning mechanics and youth pitchers have been deleted over there, go figure?

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“I see folks here talk about the problems in over-use experienced in their journey's all the time.”

Yet you never questioned the validity of the statement in terms (over-use) vs. mechanics?
Injurious mechanics (non-ossification centers related) performed by youth are not over-use problems.

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“One school of thought is that pitch limits will be "the answer"”

This has already failed miserably as predicted even with the under-used pitchers.
If the mechanic is injurious the action is always injuring on every pitch, guessing at limits
as done in the past by well meaning but still insufficient and meritless theory by survey participants will lead you to the same result.

Mechanics are the answer and I’m not talking any form of traditionally taught mechanics that incorporate centripetal imperative resulting in late humeral/forearm transition that all of those names that you posted accept one teaches resulting in a high percentage of supinated drives and finishes that cause all these problems and keep being taught by the most respected institutions..

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“others see kids pitching in multiple associations and doing stuff like back to back on the weekends followed by a couple of association starts in the week as culprit”

This is not a new problem!!! It has always been a problem!!! It’s just magnified now.

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“with little or no break year to year as the thing that throws you over the edge”

Only with injurious mechanics. There is no edge if the mechanic is healthy and if you consider that youth players should all pitch to spread the load of loss of bone growth potential. Normally youth pitchers pitch to win games, not develop.

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“My question was directed at the forum as to what THIS particular forum finds as most problematic”

I say the same things no matter where I am and so does everybody else, this is how you can play match game with the posters names if they are closeted. All these forums come to the same conclusions even ASMI with its frequented credentialed lurkers.

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“my hope is to compile these ideas with other ideas and provide it forum to forum free of charge via PDF”

Good luck with trying to get critical kinesiological information out that does not fit within a moderators belief system, hopefully you can attain a truth in statement locking
agreement so that none of the pdf’s or its parts get deleted?

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“ I've requested input from here, BB Fever, LetsTalkPitching, Baseball Debate and ASMI, I've requested input from Dick Mills, Jeager Sports, Paul Riddick, 3P's Pitching and your buddy Kevin O'Sullivan, I've also had others ask if Tom House/NPA or Marshall would like to participate.”

There is something Freudian about this list? all the listees are labeled “and” while the last listee is labeled “or” and mentioned last?

Why don’t you quit beating around the bush and invite them all here and we will all see who shows up with their thoughts and who will refuse to because they are looking down at the mere us. Lets see how many e-mail lengthy responses you will receive from all.
Now, this may red flag alert them all to the eventual realization that the information will lead them to the end of them selling their injurious products! Good luck with that one! Where’s O’Leary? I hear he is making a fortune selling his brand of injurious traditional mechanics.

Dr.Marshall has already challenged most of these to debate this problem but gets no takers, hopefully you can break the ice.

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“My intention ultimately is giving a parent some help”

What a great goal!! I hope you succeed, this is why I dumped the traditional motion as an original or continued teach unless asked to.

I have been trying to do this here for 2 years now but this is a tough crowd, that’s why I enjoy them! I believe this is the crowd that will get the job done earliest in the grand scheme of things because there are more women here, I think.

Let’s here from that great patriot Kharma at some pdf point. Hopefully he will pass a security sweeps and can be read.

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”It would be of interest to me to see if somehow these forums couldn't have a more positive impact possibly”

That’s why I am here, again good luck, just give it a go. I refuse to be discouraged.

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“who knows it might even get them to work together”

Dreamer, I have witnessed no progressives mechanics or proper limits amongst them yet?, just staunch conservative stagnation.

.

This is what Dr Fliesig responded with;

This is what Dr. Glenn Fliesig of the ASMI responded to me with;

Quote:
jdfromfla,
The American Orthopaedic Society for Sports Medicine also thinks that it is time for such a campaign, and has pooled the national experts together to start it (egos aside). I started a separate thread on this. Check this out, and spread the word: http://asmiforum.proboards.com...=display&thread=1217

You Marshallites really do need a goup hug there Yard.

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Is this a Social experiment? Or is it you really care about kids? Or do you think a group of concerned parents can come to better mechanical or training conclusions than an orthopedic surgeon can and have in the past?

No I think that there is more than one way to train up a pitcher..these folks here have valid input and experiences..think more of it this way...
As a group the premise is endorsed and this group offers their unique experience as to how best to combat it. Your buddy Kharma suggested that Dr. Marshall would assert from his free web book the tenants he offers on coaching kids. ASMI would as a signatory agree and provide their answer to combat it, Mills, Jeager, Peterson, House..they all have a position of similar stripe..just agree, present your best solution and there it is for all to see..yes in many respects it is dreaming to be able to set aside the egos and the cynacism...but why not apply effort and see what pops out.

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Making over-use a bogus term.

I think it could be rationally argued that over-use constitutes misuse..I'm not encumbered by semantics though.

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Lets talk all age groups and keep each one in its context remembering that this is HSBW

Indeed, in the high school years is when this misuse typically and catastophically manifests, which is why I believe the testimony of this forum has a very meaningful place in the discussion.

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Your attempt here is commendable but headed for a rocky path leading to a hill, good luck

What are they going to do? Call me names? I'll lose about no sleep over that.

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I don’t know? I see Chris O’Leary (John yaya) here, there and everywhere selling his goods and recognize many others also, we also have posters that ask you to restrict postings here by staying over there if you displease them in some way by your practices.

Yep the internet world is much like families isn't it.

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This is not a new problem!!! It has always been a problem!!! It’s just magnified now.

I couldn't disagree more...in the 70's travel was unheard of and Tommy John was a freak of nature..and just a lefty with some good funk , I saw my first TJ scar on a kid in 1985..he traveled extensively and played association ball..he was a catcher btw.

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There is something Freudian about this list? all the listees are labeled “and” while the last listee is labeled “or” and mentioned last?

Perhaps Jungian..I personally addressed the first and had "others" address the last..though this sort of infantile "me-first" thought process clogs the works and takes away from the premise.

jd, I knew it would be an exercise in futility to include Marshall in this discussion. First of all, they believe all "traditional" mechanics are wrong and therefore nothing we do in terms of limiting overuse will do any good either way. Secondly, he believes that kids should not pitch until they are 13 and after that only one inning per game 2x per week until biological age 16.

Here is a quote from his web page:

"All for what? Adolescent glory? The growth plates of the pitching elbow do not completely mature until young men are biologically sixteen years old. For parents to take charge and protect their sons, they have to not permit their sons to train for pitching for more than two months per year, not permit their sons to pitch in games against batters until they are thirteen years old, not permit their sons to pitch more than one inning per game twice a week and use my 60-Day Youth Baseball Pitchers Interval-Training Program to teach their sons the proper way to apply force to their pitches."

Here is the link to that page:


http://www.drmikemarshall.com/ChapterTwenty-Nine.html

So, I would think that including Marshall and his followers in this discussion would be counter productive. All you would get is the above.

I would love to see Yard, Kharma and those guys to just put aside the rhetoric for once and contribute something to this.

I think what you are doing is a valiant effort. It will be interesting to see what comes from it.

Let's see, a couple weeks ago a HS coach threw a rising senior who is going to be the team's ace during the semifinal game of their summer league tournament. He went 5 innings. Two days later he brought the kid back to close the championship game. Does anyone think this made sense when it came to the player's future? Does anyone think this made sense when it came to the 2011 regular season? Does anyone doubt that 90% of HS coaches would have done the exact same thing? I've seen the same coach do far worse. I've seen multiple players come out of the program with TJ injuries. This same coach will preach arm care with the best of them.

Words are one thing, actions are another. Coaches coach to win and most coaches care a lot more about winning than about the players. There are a few, witness pulling the mlb pitcher who had a no-hitter going, who really do care more about their players, but my experience is that most coaches get lost in the moment when they have a chance to win a game or a championship of some sort.

No BBman I expected push back, de-mystification can clear up a whole buch of "conventional wisdom" and those guys have something to say also.
They are uniformly bitter though, Yard is at least somewhat optimistic but the barbs and stings have scarred and it is as I said..bitter for them.
Hopefully seeing that there is actually a movement beyond this minor foray of mine here, it will inspire the various groups to lead or get behind.

jd, I know they have something to say. I am not one to censor them and not let them have their say.

I will say this to Yard. Yard, you have admitted that you will give lessons for "traditional" mechanics when a student declines learning the Marshall way. I would think by your comments that you allow players under 13 years old to pitch competitively in games.

How about if you comment on the issue of overuse and how you have seen your pitchers overused by their game coaches and what might be able to be done about it from that stand point - leaving out the mechanics issues for now. Believe me, any one of the groups jd is calling on can do the same thing. They all have their "one thing" that sets them apart from others that they can cite is the reason for the problems. It would be nice to stick to the topic of overuse and what peoples opinions are on that issue.

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Let's see, a couple weeks ago a HS coach threw a rising senior who is going to be the team's ace during the semifinal game of their summer league tournament. He went 5 innings. Two days later he brought the kid back to close the championship game. Does anyone think this made sense when it came to the player's future? Does anyone think this made sense when it came to the 2011 regular season? Does anyone doubt that 90% of HS coaches would have done the exact same thing? I've seen the same coach do far worse. I've seen multiple players come out of the program with TJ injuries. This same coach will preach arm care with the best of them.

Words are one thing, actions are another. Coaches coach to win and most coaches care a lot more about winning than about the players. There are a few, witness pulling the mlb pitcher who had a no-hitter going, who really do care more about their players, but my experience is that most coaches get lost in the moment when they have a chance to win a game or a championship of some sort.

A tremendous point CaDad, all the more reason to mitigate that idiocy early instead of when the future is "really" on the line. My contention is that with a better approach early, parents can at least get some measure of control. At the HS level that control dwindles to moving to another school and that a poor alternative one at best. With knowledge it will be much harder for that old crusty coach to buffalo parents who though they hate the guy, just want little Skippy to get a shot.

JD,
I have some questions that I hope can fit into the discussion somehow. Most of it centers around the UCL because I get the impression that this is the most common injury in terms of surgery and I believe it may be mistreated somewhat.

If indeed UCL injuries are caused by fatigue as the statistics apparently suggest, what is the mechanism for injury? Why are players more susceptible to injury while fatigued? What are the qualitative and quantitative signs of a fatigued pitcher? Does the UCL usually respond with pain when injured? If so, when and where does the pain refer? How does the UCL grow and heal? Knowing how it heals, what are the best techniques for encouraging healing between throwing sessions? What are the best ligament maintenance protocols for baseball players including diet?
I believe most of this stuff is fairly well defined. If parents could be given this kind of information they might be able to better understand and measure fatigue as well as make better maintenance decisions in order to prevent major injury.

Mechanical issues are going to be more difficult to resolve.

Good Luck,
Ted

TBP,
The UCL by itself is only marginally capable of handling the loads from pitching. The muscles in the forearm tend to offload the UCL to some degree. Once those muscles get fatigued and can no longer offload the UCL then the UCL is far more subject to acute damage.

Unfortunately, some of what you've noted isn't well defined because it varies from person to person. It can also be difficult to precisely image the UCL in many cases. A lot of the time it is trial and error to some degree and an element of risk is involved in order to improve.

At the HS level, early this HS season, a coach in our region pitched a kid 160 pitches. Did the same thing later in the year. In my mind, this is overuse and probably abuse. This discussion came up on a local board and there were those who tried to talk about how great a coach this guy was and how he shouldn't be judged for something like this. I personally don't care how great a guy someone is, if they let a HS pitcher throw that much, it is wrong.

Going down to the younger ages, I think letting a kid pitch multiple games in a tournament is a problem. Unless the outings are short, say coming in during the last inning to close and doing that the next day, this should not be done. The other thing I see too much of is bringing in a kid directly from a position to pitch. Most coaches at the youth level want to carry as small a roster as possible to avoid parents complaining about lack of play time. By doing this, they subject their kids to overuse and misuse by not having enough kids to properly warm up the next pitcher in a releif situation. They also run into the situation of needing that starting pitcher to go right into the field at a position after he's off the mound. He's also right back at short or in the OF in the next game. I just think that is asking for trouble.

To add to CaDads concise statement, it is also not a blood served part of the arm, injuries to ligaments and cartilidge take much longer to heal because of this. Thusly when you start doing things such as, stacking travel and association play, the kid is never allowed to let those areas heal (The micro-tears and fissures which occour when the body does the act of pitching)..over time, no matter how resilient the kids spirit, tissue will fail if not cared for properly.

quote:

Let's see, a couple weeks ago a HS coach threw a rising senior who is going to be the team's ace during the semifinal game of their summer league tournament. He went 5 innings. Two days later he brought the kid back to close the championship game. Does anyone think this made sense when it came to the player's future? Does anyone think this made sense when it came to the 2011 regular season? Does anyone doubt that 90% of HS coaches would have done the exact same thing? I've seen the same coach do far worse. I've seen multiple players come out of the program with TJ injuries. This same coach will preach arm care with the best of them.

So do you think that did more damage to the arm than that pitcher going and pitching in Showcases every weekend through November and December? I'm not saying I agree with throwing a kid for 5 innings and coming back 2 days later.

Overuse has become an issue because kids are playing sports "to get the college scholarship." Overuse is a problem in most sports, but I think the biggest culprits are baseball, s****r, and volleyball. In these sports, there is no longer an offseason. If you want to limit overuse injuries, you need to start there.

quote:

Originally posted by jdfromfla:
A tremendous point CaDad, all the more reason to mitigate that idiocy early instead of when the future is "really" on the line. My contention is that with a better approach early, parents can at least get some measure of control. At the HS level that control dwindles to moving to another school and that a poor alternative one at best. With knowledge it will be much harder for that old crusty coach to buffalo parents who though they hate the guy, just want little Skippy to get a shot.

Good point made JD. What I think is a real problem that causes problems is parents not being educated. Perhaps if every youth, organization made an effort to make young pitchers parents aware very early of the things that cause injury (and they are multiple) this would help, alot. Then they won't be wondering WHY their 15, 16 year old has to have shoulder or elbow surgery.
How about making it MANDATORY that every organization hand out info regarding pitch counts, innings, cb and other pitches used too early, too much time on the mound, lots of time off, etc. to everyone EARLY, try t-ball.

How many parents will admit that they made some huge mistakes in not playing attention to many of the recommendations made. I don't even care if you want to let them know that there are other methods, they can chhoose from, but let's stop out youth from having surgeries TOO young.

Yardbird,
You failed to read something I directed to you in another topic. You claim that son's elbow was grouchy because he supinates his pitches, have you ever seen him pitch? He pronates. Also a list of your successful college scholarship players would be most appreciated, along with any pro guys using non injurous mechanics, starting at a very early age. Yeah we all know that the pitching motion is injurous, but can you prove with examples how your way is not? Let's see it in writing, all of those players. Make yourself a bit more beleiveable.

You all over on the other side do make and have some valid points, you ever wonder why no one listens? Go back and read over your posts, they are enough to turn anyone off, quickly.

Who parent would EVER want to be invloved with the way you or others speak down to everyone, no one?

CADAD,

I believe your description of how the UCL is impacted by muscle fatigue is correct. I would like to see a similar piece come out of ASMI as part of a UCL primer to help inform parents on proper arm care. While fatigue may be somewhat nebulous, ligament physiology is well defined and understood. But when rest, ice and ibuprofen are recommended treatments for ligament injury As they are on Dr. Andrews stop sports injuries website, I become less hopeful that more serious injuries can be prevented through this type of crusade. Fortunately helpful information is available for those who will look for it but it is hard for parents without much time or training to find what really helps.
I guess just limiting the throwing is the best you can do under those circumstances.

Good luck,

TBP

Bulldog,
Depends on the showcases and how they were run. Most pitchers don't throw many innings in showcases and are pitch per batter and # of batters limited during the showcase. There is a potential problem with not getting an extended rest period at some point in the year, but that doesn't mean there isn't some other time of year when a pitcher could rest.

Here's a couple others from that one, throwing a pitcher 3 innings on back to back days throwing mostly sliders during a spring break tournament. Throwing a pitcher for three innings who hadn't pitched or thrown for a couple weeks and was just finishing up a Medrol Dose Pack for a back strain.

quote:

Depends on the showcases and how they were run. Most pitchers don't throw many innings in showcases and are pitch per batter and # of batters limited during the showcase. There is a potential problem with not getting an extended rest period at some point in the year, but that doesn't mean there isn't some other time of year when a pitcher could rest.

Let's see school ball starts in late February and runs through end of May, summer ball starts beginning of June and runs until beginning of August, fall ball starts middle of August and runs until late October/November and showcases are yearround. Where was that rest again?

Jdfromfla,

I am very appreciative of your effort here but as you see you have already been asked to eliminate our contentions! Go figure.

quote:

“I think it could be rationally argued that over-use constitutes misuse”

This is a main sticking point unless you rename the condition as “injurious mechanic limitations” instead of “over-use” that does not occur performing a non-injurious mechanic in young adults.
A healthy mechanic cannot be over-used in such a minimal effort work to rest interval athletic as with pitching. Only your capacity is limiting.

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“I'm not encumbered by semantics though”

Neither is anybody else apparently? I am, getting it wrong is what leads us all to “use limiting” in young adults and adults because of the confusion now that people think their centripetal traditional mechanic is actually safe and the reason they are now injured is because of the competitive amount they use and not the mechanic.

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“though this sort of infantile "me-first"

Who said anything about first? I’m just sensitive to this subliminal cornering that naturally comes out with all and understandable.

Bballman,

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“jd, I knew it would be an exercise in futility to include Marshall in this discussion”

Sorry, bball I forgot my warning disclaimer to protect you from going thru that.
Remember just don’t read anything I post and you will be alright to participate.

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“First of all, they believe all "traditional" mechanics are wrong”

This is false when weighed against the actual information!
Example, the voluntarily pronated pitches and arm vectors that many traditional pitchers perform are positive tenets, there are many more.

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“nothing we do in terms of limiting overuse will do any good either way”

Wrong again, notice how there is a “we” and a “you” here hardly a good start to the thread mission statement request.
The we did finally recommend pitch limits for youth pitchers even though they got it grossly wrong and were told it was wrong and for what reasons.

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“Secondly, he believes that kids should not pitch until they are 13”

This is false also, he recommends that they do not compete when pitching yet, I think we all look past this qualified recommendation and hope that the stress can be shared evenly during developing years youth years so they can enjoy the game as played in the yard.
My recommendation is that everybody has to pitch to spread the load evenly so that all their arms are deformed less yet all.

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“I would think by your comments that you allow players under 13 years old to pitch competitively in games”

This is never a decision I have to make, the parents have all the control but sometimes do not realize they have this power or are assertive enough when dealing with forceful personality coaches.

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”How about if you comment on the issue of overuse and how you have seen your pitchers overused by their game coaches”

I do believe in the overuse explanation with developing youth pitchers with any mechanic! I have explained my un-qualified but experienced recommendations for youth pitchers that still allow for below 13 byo competitions that exceed Dr.Marshalls recommendations but are way lower by 80% in at the time production and consecutive months, hopefully we can have more of this discussion.

HSBW, BBF and ASMI would be the correct places to air it out but voices are censored at these sites and many others besides ASMI is selling something and can’t really give mechanical recommendations freely as with the others named but gives their pitch count recommendation collected from mainly unqualified participants making the recommendations posses no scientific merit..

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”So, I would think that including Marshall and his followers in this discussion would be counter productive”

You need not worry about counter production, you already have it covered by the incorrect over-use explanation for injuries!

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“All you would get is the above”

Selling us short and getting information wrong is what stands out above

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I would love to see Yard, Kharma and those guys to just put aside the rhetoric

You’s have al ready done this physically to Kharma here and I see no rhetoric only mechanical, training and health recommendations. Kharma is just a colorful writer and many of you don’t seem to like rainbows, gray areas and especially that Black and white..
You actually may benefit by asking that he be reinstated.

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“for once and contribute something to this”

I believe we have stepped up and attempted to explained the actual problem in detail instead of the accepted perceived one that ensures delivery and continuation of those wrong principles.

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“what might be able to be done about it from that stand point - leaving out the mechanics issues for now”

I could bow out if knowing that all would understand that you would be discussing only injurious mechanics when naming the problem over-use or add in by way of experience with the traditional motion in all its centripetal forms by making pitch count recommendations at a much lower number than is currently understood as correct.

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“Believe me, any one of the groups jd is calling on can do the same thing.”

This cannot be done if owning up to their injurious mechanical continued teachings that have already been proven by results and kinesiological diagnosis as dangerous.

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“They all have their "one thing" that sets them apart from others that they can cite is the reason for the problems”

Where, you must pay for these false opinions, this is another reason for their intransigency, if they can’t come to terms as I did with their injurious beliefs then they will fight the information.

quote:

“It would be nice to stick to the topic of overuse and what peoples opinions are on that issue”

The two subjects are the same and the reason for confusion is that people give their unqualified anecdotal positions, you still believe that some form of centripetally applied mechanics are safe when they are not? I believe mechanical mis-use in young adults is the problem not over-use. Over-use in youth pitchers is prevalent even with non-injurious mechanics because they still produce stress across growth centers, all the other injuries are preventable and even many of the bone stress issues mitigated.

TBP

quote:

“UCL because I get the impression that this is the most common injury in terms of surgery and I believe it may be mistreated somewhat.”

UCL degradation is more a problem with young adults and adults not youth pitchers and is mistreated in that it is totally preventable in all.

quote:

”If indeed UCL injuries are caused by fatigue”

UCL injuries are caused by one mechanic, “Forearm bounce” attaining full outwards humeral rotation just before the acceleration phase caused by late humeral/forearm transition and has nothing to do with what the word fatigue really means that would be right if used the way the word actually means like “micro tearing” cumulatively instead of what everybody and ASMI believes is “lack of capacity” or energy stores that is not fatigue.

quote:

“as the statistics apparently suggest, what is the mechanism for injury?”

The stats lie as usual by putting the blame on over-use instead of mechanical performance.

quote:

“Why are players more susceptible to injury while fatigued?”

Maybe what you are seeing is mechanical breakdown and not lack of capacity that looks like the culprit?

quote:

“What are the qualitative and quantitative signs of a fatigued pitcher?”

Work to rest relationships are already known in exercise physiology and a pitcher works for 2 tenths of a second then rests for 30 seconds, hardly enough output to minimize capacity in this activity. It’s not capacity.

quote:

“Does the UCL usually respond with pain when injured?”

No! there are no pain receptors running through Ligaments but there are at the bone insertion but most of the tears are in the middle like most structures, this is why you see many complete tears give the pitchers the false notion that they are alright with a little rest until that MRI comes back.

quote:

“If so, when and where does the pain refer?”

Three pronator muscles help protect the UCL by pulling the Ulna closer to the humerus as Cadad has explained. When these muscles are not conditioned to withstand the stress pain will occur right above the UCL and Dr’s miss-diagnose these muscle tears continually. Strengthen these muscles sport specifically and this problem disappears

quote:

“How does the UCL grow and heal?

The UCL is minutely vascularised when original and is always repairing itself from bad mechanical application. When a replacement UCL is put in it never revascularises and never repairs itself.

quote:

“Knowing how it heals, what are the best techniques for encouraging healing between throwing sessions?”

Time and nutrition.

quote:

“What are the best ligament maintenance protocols for baseball players including diet?”

Actual “Sport specific” training daily and carbo loading after the game.
Of course the best one is to quit bouncing your forearm backwards.

quote:

“I believe most of this stuff is fairly well defined”

Depends on whose explanation you are getting, most have it wrong.

quote:

“If parents could be given this kind of information they might be able to better understand “

The best information is actually there but has not been taken advantage of yet in any meaningful way because everybody wants their information from the top down and this information is somewhat new making this route almost impossible to get out.

quote:

”Mechanical issues are going to be more difficult to resolve”

Mechanical change is a tough recommendation to jump on and most are not willing to experiment with new information but it is making forwards progress although at a snails pace.

quote:

“I would like to see a similar piece come out of ASMI as part of a UCL primer”

They have, Dr.Fleisig believes the UCL is degraded upon extension of the elbow so their belief is already set with out a fixable call out but rather than me explain this you should get it from the horses mouth.

quote:

“when rest, ice and ibuprofen are recommended treatments for ligament injury As they are on Dr. Andrews stop sports injuries website.”

Unfortunately Dr.Andrews is a great surgeon but a poor kinesiologist who just goes along with what the rest say or visa versa.

quote:

“I become less hopeful that more serious injuries can be prevented through this type of crusade”

You have said a mouthful here and are spot on and their normal call of rest opposed to the superior mechanical fix and proper sport specific training is a huge impediment.

quote:

This is a main sticking point unless you rename the condition

You already got the concession..rejoice! Misuse it will be.
BBman has every right to that opinion based on his experiences and frustrations..his initiative may in fact exclude Dr. Marshall..I don't agree on that count. I don't believe ASMI does either but I in no way speak for them.

quote:

Originally posted by jdfromfla:

quote:

This is a main sticking point unless you rename the condition

You already got the concession..rejoice! Misuse it will be.
BBman has every right to that opinion based on his experiences and frustrations..his initiative may in fact exclude Dr. Marshall..I don't agree on that count. I don't believe ASMI does either but I in no way speak for them.

I don't exclude Marshall. If fact, I read everything yardbird has to say and have gotten into a number of discussions with him. I have also communicated with one of his contemporaries, Khama, on other boards as well as in emails quite a bit. My only contention is that Yard would turn this into an issue of mechanics rather than a discussion of "overuse". I think there is a big difference between the terms as I see Yard using them. Overuse has to do with how much someone pitches competitively in one outing and how frequently they pitch. Misuse, as I understand the Marshall camp, has to do with the mechanics of pitching and nothing to do with # of pitches, frequency of outings and pitching while fatigued. I would just hate to see this very timely and appropriate topic get side tracked from overuse to a discussion about how individuals pitch. I see them as two separate issues.

BBman what ever your reasoning it certainly is your right and not the lever that would be excluding Marshall..I was over-simplying your position I understand but it was only to point out that Yards logic on that particular point was weak.


I sure would love to get perspective from PG and Tr on this initiative and how they see it effecting their respective groups.

Actually according to Dr. Jobe revascularization of the tendon used as a ligament replacement is one of the keys to a successful outcome. Then again he's not a kinesiologist so what would he know?

I believe there is no real for sure answer to solve the entire issue of pitching injuries. Sometimes they just happen! Just like any other sport, there is some risk involved. We can do more to help curb the problem, but that is all we can do.

Every sound and reasonable person knows you can't push too hard in any sport. The physical body has its limitations. If we perhaps took it from that angle and was able to properly apply it at every level to every player, parent and coach and organization we may do more to help curb the problem more than any other thing. The problem is however that it requires a lot of attention and teaching and then sticking to that across the board for it to happen.

I do like having pitch count limits in leagues. I believe that this should be applied especially in High school. I have seen many many times coaches with good intentions overuse pitchers for the sake of winning. Its not that coaches, players and parents are not wholly unaware of overuse injuries, the problem stems from not having limiting factors such as pitch count limits in place to prevent knowledgable people from overusing young arms.

Personally I believe more should be done to instruct, teach and then implement and apply rules that would eliminate overuse and injuries which originate from that.

I have always wanted to apply a pitch limit per inning (like say- 45 pitches) and pitch limit per game in high school (like 4 innings or 100 pitches, whichever comes first) play along with an overall pitch limit per season and rest period inbetween pitch outings.

From what i have found out, instruction alone does almost nothing to prevent overuse injuries. the drive to win is just too great in a lot of minds. The only thing I have found that works is rules and regulations which limit or eliminate overuse.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I have always wanted to apply a pitch limit per inning (like say- 45 pitches)

It's sometimes difficult to think clearly when you're strapped to a printing press. - Batman

GBM,
Just to expand a bit on what you stated some will argue that long innings can be a culprit as well.

45 pitch count may be too long for any pitcher to remain in for one inning.
Young pitchers can't always hit their spots, long innings in youth games may mean the umpire needs to let up on the zone, that has to be a consideration factor as well, would you agree?

I understand that strategy in baseball is to force the pitcher into throwing more than he has to to knochk him out, but is that necessary in youth baseball?

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
GBM,
Just to expand a bit on what you stated some will argue that long innings can be a culprit as well.

45 pitch count may be too long for any pitcher to remain in for one inning.
Young pitchers can't always hit their spots, long innings in youth games may mean the umpire needs to let up on the zone, that has to be a consideration factor as well, would you agree?

I understand that strategy in baseball is to force the pitcher into throwing more than he has to to knochk him out, but is that necessary in youth baseball?

I agree. I was just throwing numbers out and mainly directed the number at "high school" age. 45 may indeed be too much in an inning especially for youth. Youth pitchers would probably be substancially less than 45.

GBM - Think before you post man! If you don't know, don't pull numbers out of your behind....45 pitches in any inning is insanity at ANY level.

Last three years my son's HS team.

API:

15.1-16.8 with one at 19.1

14.8-16.7 one at 19.3

15.4-15.7 one at 19.4

All three at 19 did not pitch much. (for good reason) A REALLY bad inning is in the low 20's, if someone is throwing upper 20's it is a disaster and there is a reason and they will not be out there.

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
GBM - Think before you post man! If you don't know, don't pull numbers out of your behind....45 pitches in any inning is insanity at ANY level.

Last three years my son's HS team.

API:

15.1-16.8 with one at 19.1

14.8-16.7 one at 19.3

15.4-15.7 one at 19.4

All three at 19 did not pitch much. (for good reason) A REALLY bad inning is in the low 20's, if someone is throwing upper 20's it is a disaster and there is a reason and they will not be out there.

I have seen it (45 pitches in an inning) at the MLB level just so you know.

quote:

Any way, JD, you know you got my support. It obviously will be a battle against the nay-sayers. In light of Fleisig's post about Andrews' effort, a regroup might be in order to figure out what will be the most effective approach as duplicating that effort (probably not even possible) would probably be wasteful. Plus, there are other efforts going on. For example, the NPA started up http://www.injuryfreebaseball.com as a social networking site for baseball folks with a focus on avoiding injury. Also, guys like House, Andrews, etc. present on such topics at major conferences like the annual ABCA conference.

This provided by my good friend Roger Tomas..I think the regroup might be to keep all of this superior discussion and links as a sticky for parents to see a fairly comprehensive full spectrum of perspectives...I'm still hoping PG and TRhit jump in with the stuff they know and see from their unique position.

quote:

By the way, let me know the chances of this going through in Florida.
http://drmikemarshall.com/ChapterTwelve.html

This the remedy suggested by a follower of Marshall who posts on the ASMI forums.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

I have seen it (45 pitches in an inning) at the MLB level just so you know.

Yeah you might have, but that doesn't mean it was all that smart, was it, and did he come back out or did he have short quick innings after that?

You have to stop relating to what's done on the upper levels to youth baseball.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

I have seen it (45 pitches in an inning) at the MLB level just so you know.

Yeah you might have, but that doesn't mean it was all that smart, was it, and did he come back out or did he have short quick innings after that?

You have to stop relating to what's done on the upper levels to youth baseball.

Personally I believe each situation with each pitcher is different. I was only giving some rational number for high school level kids. Whether it be 30 or 35 or even 45 pitches, I think it is possible to come up with a legitamate allowance for high school age kids to throw in an inning and in an outing and in a season.

I wasn't really meaning to be specific with an actual number, just throwing out ideas. I am as concerned as anyone with pitching injuries and overuse solutions to eliminate it at all levels.

the view on over use is a broad one. many things come in to play with arm problems.

long innings,poor mechanics,pitching and then playing another position such as ss or c,high pitch counts,not enough rest between pitching day's,types of pitches thrown,improper or no warmup,i've always felt hard throwers at a young age before the body can support it. sometimes it just happens,but not really.

at one time or another most players have all these things happen to them.in my opinion,they all add up to the eventual breakdown.

not to mention the different types of players. kids that will not play beyond LL age, or high school. they don't know that people have helped or hurt them. whith the exception of a few, who knows how far they can go in baseball? should that matter?

trying to educate parents is a great idea.but as we see 9yr olds playing 40/50 travel ball games,(someone pitches those games) it becomes clear the thrill of competition can make us drunk with pride,all the way up into hs. trophys and titles mean little when your under the knife to fix those years of abuse.

education is a great step for this,if i knew then what i know now..... well, i guess that goes for life too.

quote:

Originally posted by jdfromfla:

quote:

By the way, let me know the chances of this going through in Florida.
http://drmikemarshall.com/ChapterTwelve.html

This the remedy suggested by a follower of Marshall who posts on the ASMI forums.

Jd in general I believe Marshall is barking up the wrong tree - except for one area. This is the overuse and abuse of young pitching arms. Anyone who has spent anytime in youth baseball has seen it. He does get the whole biological development side of the equation. LL is trying to get ahead of the curve, with pitch counts, but some of what he proposes should at least start a discussion on how we can do a better job. I know local youth football leagues for example put teams together by weight; it is a foreign concept to baseball, but something that could be looked into. We have all seen the 6’2” 13YO throwing 70+ at 46’ to 4’10” kids and there is something wrong with this.

Yardbird if you can get off this whole issue of traditional vs non traditional mechanics I think some common ground could be found to the benefit of our youth.

Personally I think LL and most of the other youth leagues went in the wrong direction when they changed the ages to make the kids a few months older. Now they have older 13yo than they used to and the disparity in physical maturity is greater than it used to be.

I thought they should have changed it such that the kids were still 12yo at the end of the LLWS, etc. There still would have been significant differences in physical maturity but they'd be less than they are now.

Oh well, having older 13yo out there adds 1 or 2 mph on the radar gun on TV and who can argue with ratings?

That's my big gripe with Williamsport. They've sold their souls for the TV money.

At this point, the teams who make it to the big dance tend to be those who are loaded with kids who're well into puberty. Pop ups become HR's. These kids are going to be late for the start of school, as in ... 8th grade!

I heard talk at one time that the move to May 1 as the aging date was step one towards going to January 1, so as to align with the international baseball standard. Personally I don't think that alignment was necessary or even desirable. It works better if the aging date more closely aligns the league ages with the grades the kids are in in school.

But if they do move to Jan. 1 at some point, I hope they also drop the majors division to an 11u division. That would keep things closer to where they were historically, it wouldn't mess up the whole TV thing, and it wouldn't be such a joke watching 8th graders hit the ball 205 feet and get a HR for it.

You know, around here an 8th grader can play HS JV ball. So think of it ... a kid hitting can be hitting a 205' "blast" in August and then be hitting a 260' can o' corn fly out just six months later.

I too am not a big fan with what LL has done. They are far behind the times in properly developing talent to play beyond LL. 46 foot mounds and 60 foot bases for these kids is ridiculous for 12-13 year olds. Kids are conditioned to throw extremely hard from the shorter distance, breaking balls have to be changed or manipulted to get the desired results, and pitchers have no clue as to what a balk is, runners don't know how to lead off and steal properly..and the list goes on and on. I have seen check swing homeruns which should never be more than a strike or out.

12-13 year olds should be playing on 60/90 fields so that they can gain the experience needed entering high school.