The Convention on Over-Use

bof
You made my day.
I just hope Minn Mom and the admins will see how terrific this thread has become...
Best of the forum bringing the good stuff.

Really all the forums have stepped up and come up with some absolutely spot on and well schooled thought..any curious or concerned parent/coach..person couldn't help but come away with the widest range of thought all geared towards helping kids at least get their shot. I consider it all pretty successful even if I haven't gotten a response from Mills, Jaeger, Riddick..etc. (I pm'd em on YouTube, so they may in fact think I'm a p or no spammer trying to get them to come see my wares ).

quote:

Personally I think LL and most of the other youth leagues went in the wrong direction when they changed the ages to make the kids a few months older. Now they have older 13yo than they used to and the disparity in physical maturity is greater than it used to be.

I agree..Cal Ripkens tourney has stepped beyond the farce of Williamsport and their manufactured "drama".
Once they got kids full into puberty it was imperitive to move the bases and fences....now it's just a cartoon I'm sorry to say..not of course to those who make it..God Bless em and I mean that..but you can bet the flower of those American teams will be playing some travel tourney within a week or two post Williamsport.."stretchin the rubber band".

Was watching the LLWS game between Hawaii and Georgia today and the starting pitchers combined for 69 pitches through the first inning. Georgia pitched their ace for 40 pitches in the first inning averaging 75-76 mph on the fastball while Hawaii pitched their ace for 29 in the first inning.

Jdfromfla,

Is that it? Where do you put the number for 13’s and under’s?
Lets get this thing rolling, if not then how about some conclusions?
Or is 85 the number? All the other sites fizzled out and I don’t know where to go for the PDF?

quote:

“You already got the concession..rejoice! Misuse it will be”

Like I said I’m OK with the term over-use when dealing with growing youth players and their bone deformation but not once the growth plates have fused then the term should change to “mechanical Mal-practice “ or something that actually fits because, if you cannot not injure yourself, there is no over-use.

Do you think it fair that a non-injurious pitcher(Marshall mechanics tenets) must limit his pitches in HS, college or pro if he is biologically fused with his growth plates?

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”BBman has every right to that opinion based on his experiences and frustrations..his initiative may in fact exclude Dr. Marshall”

It is not his opinions I worry about, it is the ones that he repeats that others have said over and over that are false and believed to be true like the over-use issue in young adults and adults.

quote:

“I don't believe ASMI does either but I in no way speak for them”

ASMI is afraid to debate or test any of Marshalls claims because it will make all the over 20 years of research that has also been peer reviewed go right down the drain like their over-use claims and false pitch count recommendations. Nominal is not good enough when it comes to this problem!!

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“I understand but it was only to point out that Yards logic on that particular point was weak”

My explanation might have been weak but the point was strong.

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“Really all the forums have stepped up and come up with some absolutely spot on and well schooled thought”

I can’t wait for the conclusions!! so we all be part of another mass anecdotal pitch count recommendation fail? Lets hope when we get to the conclusions the limits are at least 60% less than they are now, even this number will fail but help a little, very little.

quote:

“any curious or concerned parent/coach..person couldn't help but come away with the widest range of thought all geared towards helping kids at least get their shot”

This is good, are you going to include my tainted information in the PDF so these concerned other boarders can make a more informed decision about there families future?

quote:

“I consider it all pretty successful even if I haven't gotten a response from Mills, Jaeger, Riddick..etc”

I consider this exceptionally successful and believe that some of these individuals have their fingerprints on ASMI’s failed anecdotally attained pitch count recommendations already through the survey that was sent out and used to attain this bad information by asking everybody’s opinion about where they should be and making it sound like some kind of study. True peer review and agreement.

Bballman,

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“My only contention is that Yard would turn this into an issue of mechanics rather than a discussion of "overuse". I think there is a big difference between the terms as I see Yard using them”

I’m OK with the term over-use in children!!!! Not in young adults and adults.

quote:

“Overuse has to do with how much someone pitches competitively in one outing and how frequently they pitch”

Only mechanics dictates pitching health in young adults and adults, not pitch counts.
Accumulative injurious effects are less easily recovered from in connective tissue and cartilaginous ones from added competitions making them long term and short term muscle injuries recover very quick.

Why should Marshall tenet pitchers suffer limitations because everybody else has injurious mechanics?

quote:

“Misuse, as I understand the Marshall camp, has to do with the mechanics of pitching”

Yes, since an injury can occur at the beginning of the season or game just as easy as in the end and we are not talking fitness issues. If there is no injury where is the over-use?

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“nothing to do with # of pitches, frequency of outings”

We can pitch all day, pitches & frequency has little to do with our production.
Limitations not necessary depending on Biological age.

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“ pitching while fatigued.”

Since we do not get injured, all the fatigue has been eliminated also making the fatigue excuse false also. What is your understanding of what fatigue means in these contexts?
Most people have 3 different meanings!

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“I would just hate to see this very timely and appropriate topic”

I’ve been trying to get you guys to take this leap for years but you only want to proceed on your belief system that is false on many fronts and has led you to believe that pitch counts injure your arm not mechanics and that there is some nominal form of the traditional pitching mechanics that are not injurious.

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“get side tracked from overuse to a discussion about how individuals pitch. I see them as two separate issues”

There is no side track, just one and they are the same thing!

I do think that people who have to deal with pitch counting because of their sons mechanics need to get it right! and the counts that are established for these traditional pitchers are always way to high for any kind of safety.

quote:

“This provided by my good friend Roger Tomas”

The problem here is, they have tried this tack before, they just keep reinventing the same tired old failing information like the latest attempt by ASMI with 3p advertising non-injurious mechanics when nothing has changed but their stretching program that has now been implemented with 2 MLB teams and now have also failed with many of their participants displaying the same historic injuries. Same old failing mechanical and training info.

Cadad,

quote:

“Actually according to Dr. Jobe revasculization of the tendon used as a ligament replacement is one of the keys to a successful outcome”

This is 20 year old info that has been toned down recently due to the number of multiple UCL surgeries that produce no blood upon reremoval and retrofitting a failed replacement. Although they want them to they do not revascularize!
When is their ever a successful outcome? The tendon can never repair itself as before with the original. It’s never as stable,, it diminishes its structural integrity much faster than the original.

Gingerbreadman,

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“I believe there is no real for sure answer to solve the entire issue of pitching injuries”

I don’t believe any more either! I know there is!

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“Sometimes they just happen!”

Every injury has a reason, all are known, you might want to find out what they are?

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“Just like any other sport”

Yes, just like football when they eliminated all the throwing related injuries 30 years ago by changing their force application mechanics to pronated over high humeral releases.
Yet, some like Jake Delhomme refused to attain a high humerl vector and voluntarily pronate the torque release and end up with complete Tommy John surgery that was totally avoidable!

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“We can do more to help curb the problem, but that is all we can do”

If your child produces the traditional mechanic that is all he can do, he cannot curb the problem.

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”Every sound and reasonable person knows you can't push too hard in any sport”

My pitchers are told to push it maximally at all times and on every pitch because they have non-injurious mechanics, much different than what I’ve been reading others do..

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“ The physical body has its limitations”

What an angle and how can this concept be pushed to help produce its outcome?

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“I do like having pitch count limits in leagues. I believe that this should be applied especially in High school.”

Should my pitchers have these limitations? What for? We can pitch as often as FP softball pitchers. Why should we be punished for everybody else’s Mal-mechanics?

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“I have seen many many times coaches with good intentions overuse pitchers for the sake of winning”

When did the over-use occur and how did you know when this was happening?
Conclusions?

Its not that coaches, players and parents are not wholly unaware of overuse injuries, the problem stems from not having limiting factors such as pitch count limits in place to prevent knowledgeable people from overusing young arms.

HS kids can only pitch 10 innings a week because of this injurious problem, this limit was not enough and has failed! Pitch counting happens at all HS’s now because the original fix of 10 innings that failed and now all these coaches know that the new pitch limits have failed, what’s next is they will lower the number again and these limits will fail. Whats next? Everybody pitches one inning where they start the inning with nobody on like Mariano?

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”Personally I believe more should be done to instruct, teach and then implement and apply rules that would eliminate overuse and injuries which originate from that”

The problem is at what number, we all know that pitchers fail in the first few innings of many games, now where do they originate from?

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”From what i have found out, instruction alone does almost nothing to prevent overuse”

From what I have found out, instruction alone does everything necessary to eliminate all injuries when the instructee puts the tenets into practice!

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“The only thing I have found that works is rules and regulations which limit or eliminate overuse.”

You have not found out the mechanical fix to these problems yet?
Did you also find out the R/R have failed again by the amount of injuries still being reported even with spring only players?

BOF,

quote:

”Yardbird if you can get off this whole issue of traditional vs non traditional mechanics I think some common ground could be found to the benefit of our youth.”

I hear ya BOF, would it be better if I said injurious mechanics/ non-injurious mechanics?
This is, the only thing messing up this big pitch count fest we are trying to have.
And, I believe JD has me plugged in as a HSBW guy so your discussion has a completely different problem than all the other boards who are not encumbered with any real science involved issues, I believe they are still arguing about stats at BBF and the Bee&Deebate site has little discussion yet and only by kharma, Brett and JD, if you guys want me to move to another site so I can ruin there inadequate discussions I’m OK with that as long as I can come back here to check in when a false notion is presented IMO.

I understand that when I have to deal with the traditional mechanics coming in my front door every day, that I then have to use pitch counting as a tool for them even though I do not want to. I tell them all, the way it works and if they wish to use the injurious mechanics that they should keep the competitive and ballistic training numbers way down knowing what is taking place I have been dealing with this problem going on 40 years with traditionally based pitchers and learned only in the last 12 years that the problem goes away in its entirety when you make the mechanical switch from “outside of vertical” the supinated gateway to “inside of vertical” the pronated gateway, giving these pitchers countless bullets.

Would you dis-allow a fully biologically mature HS varsity Quasi-Marshall pitcher his limit 10 innings and 160 pitches in one game if he wanted? Knowing how they train and have a non injurious mechanic?

I’m afraid this youth push will bleed over to the more mature players who do not really need a pitch count especially when they do not understand the reasons why? You know how HS is always changing the rules of the game like in just general pitching. Remember they were the first ones with a limit already!

Wow..Yard you sure can eat the bw

Here is the contribution officially from 3-P's.
That is what I 've been doing Yard is waiting and seeing if more input was coming..I'd prefer to see the whole hodge podge of everyones input instead of it being an editorial by me.
As a side note, this new Marshall Revisionism is gaining some traction in places (As a prep/prevent conditioning tool/vs contortionist delivery technique), seemingly due to the things Mr Zahn speaks of in this statement;

quote:

Jim,
In mid August you sent us the following quotation:

"How about an Internet wide campaign to speak to what over-use does and how it really adversely effects kids, particularly in this very crucial age range (6-13)...This site, BB Fevor, HSBBWeb, LTP...many parental eyes see these sites, I suggest that as many as can agree, should come up with a statement that speaks to the negative aspects of over-use and "sport saturation", particularly within the pre-pubescent age range. I wonder if ego's could temper and good sense could prevail in the name of a healthier approach?"

You've asked a great question here, and we sense (and hope) your purpose for this campaign is aligned with our goals for Healthy Pitching. In the wake of the Stephen Strasburg disaster, it's critical for parents, coaches and pitchers to be more aware of risks associated with pitching. We firmly believe that the Strasburg elbow was caused long before he arrived at the Nationals. According to Dr. Andrews and ASMI - the seeds for most of these injuries are planted at the earliest levels of organized baseball. If you look carefully at Strasburg's mechanics - the injury was a pretty simple predication. His elbow has been historically "late" putting excessive pressure on the should and the elbow with each high velocity throw.

Furthermore, we actively campaign against overuse of amateur pitchers and proper mechanics to prevent injury as opposed to rehab - to cure injuries...


We are days away from launching our own campaign - spearheaded by Al Leiter - former MLB pitcher and current analyst on the YES Network and MLB Network. I am not sure how we can work together, but I welcome your thoughts on this very critical topic.


Regards,
Scott

Scott B. Zahn
3P Sports, Partner

szahn@3psports.com

So this is really riding the crest of many waves and as a repository of the various views..I'd say it is growing as I'd hoped, incrementally, civilly, sticking to the point (Obviously a whole bunch of folks may differ in opine as to why Stevens "string" snapped..I would love to hear his applicable sports and health histories before I decide exactly "what it was" but it certainly isn't being passed on as an opportunity to assert expertise and attract patronage). For that reason alone, it's going to get louder and more confusing, ironically potentially helping this effort as a sane wayside with all the positions evident.
And Yard...I haven't seen anyone attempt the conspiratorial "Alter-thread/position" things you suspiciously alluded to early on, do you really think this is a possibility or maybe you were like..idk just finished watching a show like "24" or something??

Here are the active links to this conversation on the other sites (Where it has been active).

http://asmiforum.proboards.com...y&thread=1218&page=1

http://letstalkpitching.com/ph....php?p=107674#107674

http://www.baseball-fever.com/...nvention-on-Over-use

Thanks for the thread. I try to read all threads like this here, your differing experience is invaluable.

I don't always understand all the technical aspects (I mean, isn't an inverted "W" an "M"?) :-) - but I'm learning! It does seem like the thing I take away is that all kids are different, but all elbows and shoulders are the same. (except for the mlb pitcher who is missing a tendon)

I think over use is a huge issue. HS Coaches/teams have to win, and that is often in direct contrast with player's health. I'm not knocking these coaches, their job is on the line. Parents often get caught up in the spotlight too.

(one quick story - husband is an ump and was working a tourney recently. One of the coaches wasn't paying attention and caught a line drive with his shin. It was bad and after the inning husband asked him why he didn't go the the ER. Coach said he was teaching his boys to "play through the pain." Husband looked at him and told him that was the dumbest advice he had ever heard, telling me it was a great example of needing to pay attention!)

That really is the mind set isn't it? Play through the discomfort, play through the strain, play though the pain. I know we don't want to raise a bunch of cry babies, but something needs to change. Having written this, I'm seeing a future of little superstars in the making whose parents won't let them throw more than 20 pitches per inning, warmups limited to 30 throws, and then wondering why they can't go more than 3 innings as HS freshman. Is there a good answer?

When son was 10, the morning before he pitched our last game of the season, he somehow managed, to rip his shin open and required 21 stiches up his leg, inside and outside. He was on the mound that afternoon pitching.
In HS, a few hours before a playoff game (where he was to play first base) while building a bunny cage for his girlfriend, he drove a screwdriver into his knee, required stitches and still played in the game, hitting a home run (some how I will never forget those incidents). So in one sense I see the coach's point, you got to be tough at times to play this game, but I do agree the lesson could have been in paying better attention.

But I think that the issue is that when it comes to pitching, a whole different set of rules have to be established. A pitcher's development takes years, it actually never stops for many, and you can't build Rome in a day. I believe rules should be what is age appropriate and I do not disagree with biological development. The big reason for pitch counts, if you want to see your son play and keep playing without sustaining a major injury, that's what you have to do, I don't think it's about raising a bunch of cry babies, it more or less allows those who would take advantage, not to.
Since it is very hard for a young pitcher to really know and understand warning signs given off by their bodies, there has to be a system in place, and gate keepers, to protect young arms that may have a future to play past HS, past college which for most is years and years down the road. What one does at 10, 15, 18 can and does directly affect what you do at 24,25,26.
Now I am not saying that the most important thing in life is to raise future ML pitchers, but in all fairness, let's give them a chance to get there, if that is what they desire.

tpm,

I think there are times when kids need to be tough, but we are talking about a game where a hang nail or a blister can knock a pitcher out for a few days. :-) I'm sure if your son's HS injury was on a pitching night, perhaps he wouldn't have taken the mound? The weekend before the first game of 8th grade, our son ripped half his right thumbnail off. I think I remember every detail of that too. He told the doctor to take the nail off and trim it up, since stitches would take too long to heal. He didn't get the start on the mound, but he did play third. That was the year he was sick with the flu and threw up all over the field and down the side of my car. Yep, we were the crazy parents for "allowing" that - and I guess middle school ball isn't that important in the long run, but it was terribly important to our son at the time. Plus we have two great icky stories. But at age 17, we continue to debate when to let him learn the slider or sinker.

I didn't mean to sound flip about protecting our kids. I think LL needs to revisit its rules about pitch counts vs throwing curves and hard breaking balls. You reiterated what I've read (and believe) that even though injuries seem to just happen, they are usually a result of years of strain. I wish I could remember who said it, but a pro pitcher was asked about his rise through high school to college. He basically said he remained healthy - that the one thing he didn't do was throw hard breaking balls at a young age.

I guess it is a difficult situation overall - I would have never thought my son college material 6 years ago. He was just out there having fun.

Having been born and raised in a community of steel workers, opting out of anything could get you branded for life. Friday night football proved who was toughest and the kids that played no matter what the condition rose to the top of the pecking order. Thus, I cannot change what has been born and bred in me.

My son, 19 is still pitching at the college level. As I look back, I coached him from the age of seven until fifteen. I used pitch counts when everyone else thought I was crazy. I also kept detailed pitching charts for location and result. The pitch count was a guide but by no means did I use it like youth baseball uses it today. The mandatory pitch count in my mind assumes "consistency". It assumes that all youth pitchers are alike, which they cannot be. It assumes that all youth pitchers are like machines, tuned to perform at one level every day, which they cannot be. Pitchers being human are variant in their performances. I was able to minimize my son's risk of injury because I cared. I paid attention to the signs of fatigue. I made him workout with light dumbells and surgical tubing. We lifted heavy with the lower half. He ran aerobicly after pitching. I don't know how you mandate "caring". Some fathers don't care, some coaches don't care, and some pitchers don't even care.

This will sound terrible to say and unless you know more of me might be taken in the wrong way. My son and I used to comment to each other about all the terrible misuse of other pitchers his age. We used to discuss who would not make it to high school and then who would not make it in college. We could accurately identify kids who had great talent but were used up. Because of over use during fatigue, blew their elbows and shoulders out way too early. His buddies were popping ibuprofen before, during and after the game, complaining about pain and going out to the mound anyway, rubbing on biofreeze, icy hot. Pitching with numbess in their fingers......sounded all too familiar (Friday Night Lights?). We knew they would drop by the wayside. And strangely all I thought was.....well that's one less guy he has to compete with. The story has never changed.

The ones who continue on "care" about their health, preparation, performance. We can step in and use whatever tools we deem necessary to protect them. Really that makes us feel good but it's just a bandaide. I agree, that's a genuinely worthy idea. But we can't possibly know them like they know themselves. They know whether they care enough to put the hard work in. If they don't then getting them to the next level will be just a postponement of the inevitable. I wish there was a simple legislative answer to the problem. Ban this, ban that. Make it a violation to pitch this many. The persons we aim to protect are the ones circumventing the rules. Does that sound familiar?

Those who don't care are in it for the moment. If we want them to care about the future instead of the moment we have to get them to give up the moment. It's got to be done one father, one coach, one player at a time. As I look around my son's room at all the baseball momentos, the balls,jerseys newspaper articles, trophies, team pictures; isn't that the only thing we have anyway?

Wow! Agree or disagree with that post there is no doubt it was spoken from the heart. And to be honest with you how can anyone disagree with someones honest opinion? Its theirs and their right. We all are products of the environment that we were brought up in. Baseball is no different. I was brought up in a sports environment much like the one you spoke about. All you had was your man hood. You sucked it up. You did what you had to do. You didnt give up the ball till the coach came to get it. And even then you tried to keep it.

As a coach I do everything in my power to instill toughness. Mental toughness. Its something that imo is lacking in kids today in many cases for many reasons. There is a balance that has to be struck. Sometimes its a fine line and its hard to see. As a coach I will err on the side of caution. But at the same time I want the player to want the baseball. I want him to want to stay in the game. I want him to want to throw a complete game everytime out. I want him to want to finish what he starts. I dont want to walk out to the mound and say thats enough good job and not see that fire in his eyes to keep the baseball.

So the coach on one hand or Dad needs to instill or help to instill that drive and determination - mental toughness - killer instinct - no fear give me the dam ball and let me do my job come hel or high water and at the same time be man enough to step in and protect him from himself.

I have seen kids come in the dugout and say "Coach Im probably going to reach my pitch count next inning." Or never say a word about a pitch count when they are dominating an opponent but cant get the words out quick enough when they are in a dog fight. Be careful that we dont make cream puffs out of players for the sake of protecting players. Or allow them to use things as a crutch. And at the same time care more about the player than winning the game while instilling a desire to win in the player that will allow him to want to push himself to a point where we have to step in to protect him.

At the same time we have to understand that some coaches do indeed care more about winning than the guy on the mound. And a players competitive nature will take over and he will not protect himself. Its just a fine line we are dealing with and some tough questions.

I understood your point 55mom, I was just making light of sometimes you got to tough it up. Ask a catcher. They are like road warriors, yet can do their job everyday. In college or milb you will find some players considered "soft", most of the time it's really lack of self confidance.

IMO, it's ok if a pitcher in HS can't go the distance, the work load in college, then in pro ball it becomes incredible, then add those two up, so my motto is save it for later.

FWIW, my son has been pitching with elbow tendinitous since end of July. I am not happy with the possibilities that can happen later on. As a youth pitcher, he would have been shut down immediately, right now what he does is his decision. In other words, control what you can when you can, early.

PA Dino,
When we first started the recruiting process, I began my own search watching college pitchers in particualr programs interested in son. I can tell you there is a big corrulation between overuse (a big work load) in college and injuries, that do occur after they go professional.

I'm bumping this back with this thread from another forum..I believe this is one way that MLB is dealing with things like the unfortunate thing that happened with Strasburg..as I noted in the thread, I think it is a very hopeful and interesting turn and possible trend

http://www.letstalkpitching.co...iewtopic.php?t=14372

Jd I don’t think it is a trend at all. I will come at this from a slightly differnt way.

First do you need to pitch when you are young to have success at the highest levels? Absolutely not. Do you need to pitch prior to HS to have the opportunity to pitch at the highest levels? Probably, because you need some time to develop and now days college coaches are making decisions on their pitchers prior to a kid even playing in his Sr HS season.

Part of my reasoning in this has developed over the past year (my son is a 2011 and will pitch at the D1 level next year) is that many college recruiting coaches are a bunch of idiotic sheep. All they do is look at the radar gun and go running after the kid(s) who throw the hardest with very little regard mechanics, size and developmental potential. An undeveloped raw kid who has a lot of potential has no chance these days. I know it is a strong statement but unfortunately IMO it is sadly true.

Some of this has been driven by the equally moronic NCAA, who has limited baseball programs to 11.7 scholarships, and with their roster limits they have little opportunity to develop a kid. This is all driven by a coaches need to win, if you win you keep your job, if not, you are gone. Consequently they are forced into finding kids who throw hard early and figure they can fix them just enough to get by for the couple of years they have them and get the next group the following year.

Sure a player can switch mid stream, but this is a very small minority. Are the coaches at fault, partly, but mostly the NCAA has created a system the promotes kids starting younger than they need to and are helping damage the youth they are supposedly trying to protect and promote. What a bunch of hogwash IMO…

OK I will now step down off my soap box.

Glad to see this subject come back JD!!!!

This all makes perfect sense, since biologically aged 11 yo’s and below’s elbows do not even show up on an X-ray and are vulnerable to over-use why let only the two advanced maturing studs pitch? The answer here is to regulate this playing time to no more than 2 innings a week and make every kid have to pitch then the poorer batters will then have a chance to hit. Eliminate the advanced maturers from these equated and delayed maturers if you want to have LL.

I don’t much care about what the pro’s whom can do what they please like when Persival was converted from a catcher late in his MiLB career and Lackey was converted late in his from an outfielder it all makes perfect sense, now if their mechanics were non-injurious there would be a proper solution for them to.

BOF

Get back up on that box, BF is wacking us with 167 posts!

BOF,
Looks like your son might go to a program that is going to try to develop a relatively soft tossing but fairly projectable lefty with a ton of pitchability. On the other hand I've seen several pitchers go there and end up at a JC. I think they had some interest in CASon after a camp there but agreed to let the JC coach go after him directly. It isn't all that often you'll see a head coach jump up and say "Who is that kid?". Who knows?

I think part of the reason some talented kids get overlooked is just how many players are out there. Coaches pretty much have to go with what they see and they don't always see the kids at their best. A program that you guys weren't nuts about treated CASon with nothing but integrity. On the other hand we dealt almost exclusively with the pitching coach at that school.

Another program we had very similar experiences with although the coach was honest with CASon if not particularly interested in putting out any effort, or taking any risk despite his having been accepted there.

Another newly minted D1 told CASon he'd get innings as a freshman. He wasn't interested in the location but I checked and freshmen of similar ability did get innings that year.

Generally I think the coaches are just people who have to sell their programs to a lot of kids and who end up disappointed a whole lot of times after investing a lot of effort in a kid when that kid signs elsewhere. Some of them probably get a bit jaded as a result. My guess is that they are more like the general population with some good, some bad and most in-between than they are like used car salesmen.

The NCAA on the other hand I really can't find anything positive to say about.

quote:

Part of my reasoning in this has developed over the past year (my son is a 2011 and will pitch at the D1 level next year) is that many college recruiting coaches are a bunch of idiotic sheep. All they do is look at the radar gun and go running after the kid(s) who throw the hardest with very little regard mechanics, size and developmental potential. An undeveloped raw kid who has a lot of potential has no chance these days. I know it is a strong statement but unfortunately IMO it is sadly true.

As I really respect your opinion BOF, what better way for MLB to short circuit this type of thinking than to tap (At a logrhythmically cheaper cost mind you) talent that wasn't forced to make it by stressing the body in the way that attempting to achieve higher and higher velocities does? This completely eliminates the "sheep" and literally forces folks to consider the most athletic, intelligent player. Now do I think this will cause MLB to pass on a Strasburg or Doc Gooden..hardly..but as I said based on the Cubs success, I don't think it can be ignored as a very viable alternative.

And Yard, quality over quanity..I am of the personal opinion that this forum had some very powerful and well thought out posts and if forced to make a call, I'd nod this way as my preference.

JD this isn't really something new. MLB teams will convert position players (catchers too) but a lot has to do with their arm strength, athleticism, coachability and make up.

Many of the players who were two way players in college drafted for their bats, end up being converted to pitchers.

Sully converted position player DJ Mitchell while at Clemson. His folks and DJ were very unhappy at first. DJ, extremely athletic, with a very loose arm. He was drafted in the 10th round in 2008, and this year reached AAA.

Never going to get me to say that there is anything "new" in the art.
The approach though I'd consider a new look at the old school. How many SS failures can a team afford?
And I'd like to know your consideration of the counter-point I made to BOF also.

JD,
Not sure what you want me to say, but FWIW, bodies stressed to the max is not just something common among pitchers and you will find position players having TJS along with lots of bad shoulders, bad knees, bad backs, etc. The DL list in pro ball is huge and it's not all taken up by pitchers.

This, IMO is not an alternative that can be considered for every player.

quote:

Not sure what you want me to say

Your opinion of the point, which says that this strategy may....may, provide viable alternative to the "magic velocity bullet" and thusly circumvent the "sheep" that BOF so correctly points to.
I certainly understand that other players get injured (Heck the most recent HOF member played for several years with pretty much all of the cartalidge worn out of his poor knees..hail to the Hawk and his ability to over-come the pain). What I see both you and BOF saying is that the college is holding the keys...when you hold the money (MLB) you, particularly when run by an MBA (Bean counter) mentality, find alternate cost effective, efficient means of circumventing that contol...and success as the Cubs are obviously experiencing in this alternate way, will imo become very attractive to the rest of the bean counters.

JD,
Must be missing something. Really I am not sure I understand what you want me to agree with.

It's not unusual to convert catchers, this is not a new thing made up by the Cubs. He's 26, and placed in the AFL to watch his progress. This could be a make or break for him. I particularly don't see MLB in the near future but I could be wrong.

Do I think that it is a cost effective way to do business? I don't know, but it certainly is a way for a player to remain in the game, and if they spent a lot of money to begin with on the player, why not? You only need so many catchers on your farm, but you can always use another arm, until you have to decide if they are then worth keeping, only a team can decide that.

Case in point, Robert Stock, a second rounf pick who has not done as well as expected as a catcher, I wouldn't be surprised if they convert him.

They don't convert athletic pitchers who can hit, but not getting it done on the mound, they just let them go.

Oh ok, I went back over BOF's post and yours again.

The lure of the college scholarship to the better programs and the big bonus' is causing young pitchers to begin throwing earlier than they should, thus causing injury?

Not sure if the blame all lies on the above. I think a lot of that can be attributed to overeager parents who feel the need to have their young players over used, and abused, yearly pitching lessons from age 8 on, spend money on all types of velo gaining programs, not monitoring them at the gym, radar guns, throw them from the mound too often, just to add velocity so they can head off to BIG State U or get a nice signing bonus at draft time(BOF definetly not being one of them).

I believe history shows that most MLB position players would make at least decent pitchers whereas few MLB pitchers have the five tools needed to make decent position players, The Babe and Ankiel excepted. That said, the transition from position player to pitcher has to be fraught with a long mental learning curve. A catcher has a head start in making the transition. The only worry I'd have is if the Pittsburgh Pirates couldn't make it work, remember Van Benschoten ( DI homerun leader with 31 at Kent State ) how can the Cubs hope to find gold at the end of the rainbow.

Maybe the Cubs have been working on this for years. In 1977 the Cubs drafted Terry Francona in the 2nd round, 38th overall. Francona chose to go to the University of Arizona where he won the Golden Spikes award and a college world series as an outfielder. He was then drafted in the first round in 1980 by the Montreal Expos, remember them? In 1989 while playing for the Brewers, Francona pitched a inning in relief, throwing 12 pitches, striking out Stan Javier in three pitches and only faced three hitters retiring the side. Could he have made the transition fulltime? I say you bet. The Cubs may have something. What have they got to lose? The National League Central?

quote:

Really I am not sure I understand what you want me to agree with.

Not me..I don't want your agreement, I want your opinion.
Look..the point..Washington dumped all that money on Stasburg..it was a bet that "gloriously failed" (So far, the kid is a competitor and I hope he comes back strong and successful). For a fraction of what The Nats spent, the Cubs have developed one of the very best closers and at the very least a solid starting pitcher from what amounts to cast aways (With another waiting in the wings)...I think this will cause some heads in the league to actively consider this alternative..you may agree, you may not but you have a son who is in the hunt and I felt your perspective would be meaningful...
Am I clear in what I'm asking you now?

You know what, if any team wants to dump that type of money on any player I say that's their choice and more kudos for the player. Let me ask you about this, if it were your son and a team had the rights to make millions of dollars off of his name, wouldn't you want them to pay him well? I would for sure. That money wasn't all for talent, but his markaetablility for sure. I'll bet they recouped more than half already.

I just think a team is doing what many teams do and that is not cast off (mostly catchers) players with accurate arms (notice I didn't say high powered cannons).
If you read the article the Cards did it with Jason Motte and they have another converted catcher in the upper farm.

So you are telling me this is a new concept? Have you not seen a HS catcher or a ss pitch? You don't hear about it often most likely because it doesn't work.
I don't think that this concept is going to change MLB.

BTW, am in agreement about the Cubs, if this is their answer foe a division win, it ain't gonna happen.

Oh boy....Of course I would love for my boy to make the bucks..and yes I'd be thrilled...
If MLB sees that the kids who for their entire athletic lives are nothing but gunning for velo, can't even make into the bigs for a year before they have to rip body parts from other areas and stick it in their arm..at a humongous cost..and the college coaches are doing nothing but blindly following that mantra...so it becomes self perpetuating...and then one team or a couple start down another road and have success, then why is it so difficult to see that it may in fact cause them to rethink the current method?
I am not advocatring anything..I am bringing this up in this thread...Over-use/misuse by the reconning of the vast majority of posters is an issue..I didn't dream it up..I am responding to a problem and attempting to show the many angles and answers that the diverse groups can come up with...The Cubbies have many many problems..one of them is that they bought and are now saddled with salaries that keep them from being able to aquire or even compete for quality like SS or Timmy or Lee, so they started tapping these guys...who don't fit the body type (All three of them) the velocity..(except Marmol and his fb is his set-up pitch) or any of the other sancrosanct models that the scouts have out there.......
Will they win the division? They are the Cubs..come on! Will Marmol or Wells or this other guy be hi value players going forward and make meaningful contributions on which-ever team they end up? My bet is yes..will that make a GM who is either on a cash poor team like Mn, or Pitt, or KC pay attention? Yes undoubtedly..and in the realm of unforseen consequences this may...may mind you, start people to thinking that instead of having a kid pitch in hundreds of games BEFORE even puberty in an effort to be SS..that there are more reasonable ways to approach it...This thought is consistant with the thinking of some of the college coaches I've talked to, who want a more well-rounded, well versed player that they can then develop...
They all want to win and phenoms will always have a place...I just don't see where there is a down-side to this thinking other than it breaks out of the "conventional wisdom".

quote:

Look..the point..Washington dumped all that money on Stasburg..it was a bet that "gloriously failed"

Actually JD Strasburg has already been a glorious sucess. It has been documented that the NAT's have already been repaid for their investment with the increased ticket sales when he was scheduled to pitch. He should come back and continue to pitch and from now on the increased revenue is the gravy. He well may undergo more surgeries, but from a business perspective it has been a good investement.

JD, from what I have seen there is a tremendous difference between pitchers with electric stuff and the average pitcher. Players like Strasburg, Lee, Lincecum, Halladay, are very much sought after and always will be, and velocity has a lot to do with it. Young pitchers like Porcello, Bumgardner also, they require very little work for the next level and that means they are going to pay well for them. If they go down, they will make sure their investments are well taken care of, for sure. Not sure about anyone else, but baseball is entertainment, and there is a lot more excitement that generates and sells tickets when these guys pitch then someone with ordinary everyday stuff is on the mound, even if they can get the job done too.

I am not sure why you think drafting SS gloriously failed, I do beleive that 29 other teams would have taken that chance. And yes I do enjoy watiching a pitcher run it up to 100mph.



Setting aside discussion on injurous mechanics, coaches and ML teams know that pitchers are going to go down, it's a fact of life, the object is to keep your system stocked during the season and legit reserves available for when that happens. If one of these guys works out and you have to pay them ML salary, you got a bargain, that happens everyday with lots of players. I don't see it as a Cubbie thing.

I am not sure this has anything to do with the great discussion of overuse which begins, not on purpose, in a players childhood, not for all, but for many. 10 year old Joey tells dad that he loves the game sooo much he wants to do it for a living. It begins from there. By the time many reach HS, the problem is underlying and you do not have a crystal ball to know what's going on. I don't see this the fault of college coaches or ML teams, I see them as often times getting over used goods. Will not throwing 100, sliders, curve balls stop it, or a "new" type of mechanic, maybe, but what fan really wants "boring".

My hyperbole was my downfall..In gloriously failed I simply mean the kid can't compete and the investment is on hold..I understand the drawing card and the cha-ching he's already impacted the Nats with.
Fernando, Maddux, Moyers..Bird, Wells, Wells, Lowe, half the White Sox staff, come on electric ain't all...
And I'm not saying or trying to change the world, I'm observing..if it was an incorrect observation then ok..I don't think it's a Cub thing either..Motte as you noted as well as others we don't even know about.
The hysterical drive for velo is causing problems and concerns..I'm not the only one who sees that as evidenced by what the Cubs and others are doing..I think it smart in a business sense and it can give the average hope in the way that The Great Greg did..so I'm pleased and hopeful..but not one who lives under a rock..guys will continue down the paths they are on.
The aspect about over-use is that these fellas are very definately NOT over-used, so they (Yes it's speculative..isn't that the fun of a forum ) have perhaps a greater period of pay-off..another potential attraction..maybe it's just my business sense that is tingling..but TPM you of all people know it's a business..electric scmelectric if the dollars roll they at the top level want profit and butts in the seats and eyes on the tube...Yes fast does that...I understand but so did Maddux winning and who doesn't remember Fernando mania?
If the guys who aren't electric can accomplish it with a greater return on the dollar..the business side of the sport will support the move. and then it will/can trickle down to the enteprising folks who grasp it...maybe..I don't know but think it's interesting to speculate, it may open more doors...
I swear on Shoeless Joe's cleats that I'm not opening a school or a web-site spouting this as THE answer..just another interesting variable to the whole mis-mash of different angles on the subject. Which is why I included it and rebrought it up.

quote:

Originally posted by jdfromfla:
The hysterical drive for velo is causing problems and concerns..

All depends on who is being hysterical.

Seriously, I am still really not fully understanding your point in relation to overuse.
If you watch a milb game, you won't find the majority of the pitching staff flame throwers. One team in the TL (AA) had a pitcher who threw FB at low 80's (his CU was clocked just above 70. I am not 100% sure, but I think he at one time threw harder, could be injury reset his velo. You won't find that (90+) on every top D1 roster either, somehow the perception is that is what you need to get there.

The consideration of the compensation received (high bonus, big scholarship) is what makes hysterical and it's not college coaches or milb teams. JMO.

Yes, it's business, that's why a team will take a failed catching prospect they paid nice money to who has a good arm and good head stuff and turn him into the one thing that is needed most, a pitcher. In their own position many have been overused, so let's not assume this is the answer to the injury problem. This player isn't the first and will not be the last for the cubbies or any other team.
JD, teams need 3 catchers max and a pitching staff of 4 times that.
BTW, there are a few other guys who are converted to pitchers in the AZFL, this one just makes for a good story. The few others I know are not setting the world on fire and perhaps are where they are to see if they can pitch against those that may someday be on a ML roster.

Well I guess my com skills failed here if you can't understand my point by now I'm really wasting both our time.
I asked for your opinion, not to be talked down to, like I don't know that teams have 3 catchers or how many pitchers are on a staff...wow

My apologies for that, perhaps you weren't getting your point across as I did give my opinion and yet you didn't seem to understand it.

BTW, even if this did make sense, it's not going to stop parents from not being hysterical, you will still find many that will do whatever they need to to "breed" a player. The dream of being the next Harper or Strasburg (number one draft picks) becomes their goal.

JMO.

The desire to be the best has always been there. The desire to be the best dirt bike rider. The best skate boarder. The best football player. The best baseball player. The desire to do it better than everyone else , hit it harder , run faster , jump higher , throw harder , etc etc etc.

The desire to throw hard is only natural for a baseball player that has the dream of being the best. "I want to throw the absolute s@ht out of the baseball. I want to blow it by people. I want to make their jaws drop when I let it go."

As long as you have competitive kids playing a competitive game your going to have kids pushing it to the absolute limit to reach their goals. And yes your going to have some kids get hurt. Your going to have injuries.

Some kids are born with the natural ability to throw harder than other kids. When you find one of those kids with the desire and drive to be the absolute best , the desire and dedication to actually work towards that goal , then you have something very special. I believe you feed that drive. But you bring it along slowly as they grow and mature into an adult. I do not believe you will ever see a player reach his full potential by being afraid of failure or injury. Just some thoughts.

As long as pitchers are treated as renewable resources (Tommy John) or disposable property and as long as velocity is king.......injuries will be maximized. At no time in baseball history has velocity been so celebrated that the very object of the game has become secondary. Coveteousness, greed, and the quest to possess things (high velocity pitchers) drives the business as it does every american family. We possess way more than we need simply because we can. As the objects, pitchers define their worth by how much they are wanted. At any level, this is true. Therefore, the pitcher will do anything and risk anything to become more attractive to the owner or coach. As an example, my son (and probably thousands of other college pitchers just like him) is about 3 mph away from the attention he seeks. He'll do anything to add that velocity and bend until he breaks if he has too. It's either that, or give up standing on that bump. When the mind is stronger than the body, injury many times results. But much is learned about oneself in the process.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
But you bring it along slowly as they grow and mature into an adult. I do not believe you will ever see a player reach his full potential by being afraid of failure or injury. Just some thoughts.

I agree CM, you bring it along slowly, and appropriatly as the player matures physically. My biggest contention is that there is too much emphasis placed on doing too much too soon too early.

No one wants to be ordinary, they want to make heads turn. As I said you do not have to throw over 90 to not play in college or proball, but you sure as h*ll will work your butt off to.

You guys are both right, my son, has gone under the knife 3 times, to fix stuff so that he can be a better pitcher. Almost two months ago, the last was recommended, not necessary and he did it. He along with every other pitcher realizes that's what you have to do to stay in the game.

Hot off the presses ya'll

Am J Sports Med. 2010 Nov 23. [Epub ahead of print]

Risk of Serious Injury for Young Baseball Pitchers: A 10-Year Prospective Study.
Fleisig GS, Andrews JR, Cutter GR, Weber A, Loftice J, McMichael C, Hassell N, Lyman S.

American Sports Medicine Institute, Birmingham, Alabama.

Abstract
BACKGROUND: The risk of elbow or shoulder injury for young baseball pitchers is unknown. Purpose/

HYPOTHESIS: The purpose of this study was to quantify the cumulative incidence of throwing injuries in young baseball pitchers who were followed for 10 years. Three hypotheses were tested: Increased amount of pitching, throwing curveballs at a young age, and concomitantly playing catcher increase a young pitcher's risk of injury.

STUDY DESIGN: Cohort study; Level of evidence, 3.

METHODS: In sum, 481 youth pitchers (aged 9 to 14 years) were enrolled in a 10-year follow-up study. Participants were interviewed annually. Injury was defined as elbow surgery, shoulder surgery, or retirement due to throwing injury. Fisher exact test compared the risk of injury between participants who pitched at least 4 years during the study and those who pitched less. Fisher exact tests were used to investigate risks of injury for pitching more than 100 innings in at least 1 calendar year, starting curveballs before age 13 years, and playing catcher for at least 3 years.

RESULTS: The cumulative incidence of injury was 5.0%. Participants who pitched more than 100 innings in a year were 3.5 times more likely to be injured (95% confidence interval = 1.16 to 10.44). Pitchers who concomitantly played catcher seemed to be injured more frequently, but this trend was not significant with the study sample size.

CONCLUSION: Pitching more than 100 innings in a year significantly increases risk of injury. Playing catcher appears to increase a pitcher's risk of injury, although this trend is not significant. The study was unable to demonstrate that curveballs before age 13 years increase risk of injury.

CLINICAL RELEVANCE: The risk of a youth pitcher sustaining a serious throwing injury within 10 years is 5%. Limiting the number of innings pitched per year may reduce the risk of injury. Young baseball pitchers are encouraged to play other positions as well but might avoid playing catcher.

As usual it comes down to which pitchers tend to get more innings. The ones who throw harder tend to get more innings. Chicken or the egg? Both most likely.

I would agree that 100 innings for a 9-14 year old is crazy. I would think and hope that very few would be doing this. I also think the off-season work that these kids do now must be taken into consideration. Today it is not uncommon for these young kids to be working with trainers and throwing year round and that should account for some of these innings. I can't help but think that if kids took more time to be kids, and less time to train like college athletes, at such a young age, there might be different results.