The Race to Nowhere in Youth Sports

My two cents.

 

When 2013 was a freshman he was about 6'4 , great shooter, handled the ball like a guard, slam dunk, all that stuff, best player in his class of 600 at a school with 2200.

 

Baseball was his first sport.... the high school baseball coach did not mind if he played basketball.  This meant that he would not be at fall conditioning for baseball. 

 

He did this and had a great freshman season, getting promoted to JV at the end of the season.  Went off to baseball in Feb and had a great freshman baseball season.

 

Now on to summer and the baseball coach says " play summer ball anywhere for any body, I will see you next year"   BUT the basketball coach says, "you have to play summer basketball with the team,  if you do not then don't bother coming back"

 

The coach shot himslef in the foot, and my son is faced with a big decision, and not a fair one. 

 

Fast forward to 2018 he goes out for the basketball team and makes the freshman team ( same coach)  a couple of weeks in the coach tells him he has to attend the coaches camp at our school and it's 75.00 or something, I don't remember the exact cost. And he has to play summer basktball with the team...

 

Well as some of you know, my sons play alot of travel baseball in the summer so they could not go to basketball. So then the jv basketball coach comes up to 2018 and says, hey you owe us 75.00 for the camp.  And my son says you need to talk to my father.   So then the basketball coach gives 2018 a deal, " give me a list of all the times you will be gone and I will see if you can do laps when you return"

 

 

 

So again none of my 4 sons who are all 6'3 or better did not get a chance to play basketball in high school .. BTW the basketball team has had one winning season in the last 4 years. never won the district.  Baseball has won the district 11 times in a row.

 

 

They aren't throwing a ball during that time, they are staying in shape over winter.  Our season starts at the end of February.  If the kids are kept in shape over winter Jan/Feb practices can be used for positional information.

 

Isn't there an epidemic on childhood obesity?  Is the board now going to say that keeping in shape over the Winter break is bad?

We had something very similar bacdorslider.  Very, VERY similar.

 

I guess its one thing for a coach to shoot his own foot - perhaps the sadder part is dissuading/shooing-away a 14/15-year old from a genuine lifetime/growing-up experience.

 

Can't see how that could feel good to any coach.  These are the reasons the article was written.  This mentality is growing...and growing.  And parents are buying it.

I dont get it,   I think some people feel they can BUY their way....  My 2013 played baseball in the rec league until age 13... then average travel teams.... he going to a mid major next year....  12-13-14-15 year olds  you only get the chance 1 time....

 

Last night the cable was out, the boys and I watched a dvd from 2007 when they played rec league basketball..... they loved it... 

 

Here's my sons basketball story. He tried out and made the team in 7th grade. Played a good bit and had a decent time. In 8th grade, he tries out again and is cut. Coach says he needed some taller kids and wanted my son to keep stats. So he keeps stats and plays rec league basketball. He has an absolute blast playing. Summer before 9th grade basketball is coming up. Parents of other players start calling, and asking why son has not been to any of the camps. I explain that he does not intend to play varsity basketball in High School. 

Later we find out coach had asked the parents to call and is mad at the middle school coach. Son plays or coaches rec league basketball through out high school, and has a great time. He did not miss varsity basketball at all. His friends that played did not really enjoy it either. The team does very well and several players usually go on to college, but son always played Basketball for fun. 

       
       

OFF-season. Some HS are optional offseason. Some are not and I feel the same way about those coaches.

Print this post. Put it away somewhere. Read it when your son is seventeen or eighteen. I guarantee you will laugh at yourself for thinking this way about 12yo baseball.

I'm gonna tell a story and then I guess I'll bow out.

My son playes soccer and baseball. This fall was the first time he's done baseball activities in the fall. That's usually when he plays soccer. He's pretty good at both but loves soccer. This fall he was invited to play for an academy soccer team. They play and practice year round. He told the coach baseball came first and the coach was ok. During the fall they played 8 tournaments and 12 games during the week. My son missed all the weekday games and 3 of the tourmants. Even with missing all that he was still the leading scorer. Basically he's pretty good. It would be benificial to his coach to have him play soccer only. Also this coach coaches at a near by HS. Our HS doesn't have soccer so my son would play for him. Again to that coaches benifit for my son to play only soccer as the soccer and baseball season are at the same time. This coach was asked by one of the parents why he allowed my son to miss games and practices for baseball. The coach replied. "Have you seen him pitch". This coach gets it. He knows my son loves baseball and doesn't interfear with that. He know he really likes soccer and allows him to enjoy it. Regardless of how much it would benifit him for my son to chose soccer he knows my son and wants what's best for him.

We're getting crossed signals here. the original scenario we were discussing involved a player's participation in baseball games WHILE he was concurrently playing another sport - one which he was focusing his primary commitment. Somehow, this became morphed into a coach who is going to punish the kid via playing time later in the spring when he is commited to the season. that wasn't the scenario presented. that's just what it got twisted into. Now, if the scenario were one where a coach is saying you have to give him your full commitment in the off-season inorder to be given a fair shake during the season itself (a time where you are commited to baseball as the in-season sport), I would agree that this is a problem. Telling a part-time kid, he's going to have to give up playing time to those who are fully commited IN THE SEASON IN WHICH THE GAMES ARE BEING PLAYED is no problem nor is it in any way discouraging multi-sport participation. I think we just have our wires crossed as to what the situation is.

If that's how the soccer coach runs the program - no problem. However, would you really have a beef if the soccer coach said; "Hey. We're glad to have him be a part of the team, but I can't give a kid who makes half the practices and misses some games for another sport (at another high school, mind you) the same playing time as my guys who are making all the practices and games)?"  I mean, I can see you'd prefer the situation you have, but would you consider the that coach unreasonable if he took that attitude?

Get on a travel baseball team as early as possible.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPzQQLJsYA8

Travel T-ball for 6 year-olds is ridiculous! What has youth sports come to? If a 6u team isn't playing kid pitch by then, they're so far behind they'll never catch up to the elite 6yos!

Roothog, this is the situation as I understood it and have been commenting.  This "elite" parent funded 12 year old team is having Fall ball. One of their players is also practicing football during football season, which was referenced by CaCo to be 6-8 weeks overlapping the "elite" Fall ball season.  I don't see or appreciate how this is substantively different from the Stanford reference I made earlier.  This football player is not playing by the "rules" which apparently some parents expect for the Fall commitment during football season.  So he is to be disciplined during the Fall and now possibly even into the start of the season next Month for playing football?

This is okay for a 12 year old but not anything which happens at schools like Stanford?  Again, just my perspective but this summary for CaCo for a 12 year old team makes me think this is why organizations such as the Positive Coaching Alliance are flourishing.  I don't see how this is not an approach which, while it does not come out preclude multiple sports, certainly discourages them in the strongest way possible.

We've had a couple of Team USA players come through our high school. One was an 18u Team USA soccer player. The Team USA field hockey player is now considered the greatest American field hockey player ever.

 

The soccer player played soccer, basketball and baseball through the preteen years. The field hockey player played soccer, basketball, softball and field hockey through the preteen years.

 

In middle school and high school while playing for an age appropriate Team USA teams and traveling the world they also played two sports for school. The girl made the adult Team USA at sixteen.

 

The boy played soccer and basketball all the way through high school. The girl played field hockey and soccer all the way through high school. The girl (a neighbor and friend of my daughter) told me she played a second sport to be as much of a normal high school kid as possible. Both kids had coaches through high school who had to make accommodations for them missing school, practices and games even in their second sports.

Really RJM?  You posted a link about 5/6 tee-ball travel ball, and how this is done because the parents want it? 

 

You don't think there is a bit of difference in these scenarios?  

       
       

No I wouldn't have a problem with. Soccer was inseason and baseball was offseason but I like the coach carring more about a 13 year old child. The coach Im commenting on however punished a football player in football season for missing an offseason baseball practice. This is a problem.

By the way when my sons baseball coach found out he was missing a soccer tournament for a baseball scrimmage he made my son go to the soccer tournament. Then he and the other coach showed up at the soccer tournament to watch. 

Bottom line some coaches care about the kids. Some care about the money, which in my opinion is 99% of the reason for fall ball in the first place, or their own ego. So chose wisely.

You don't think there is a bit of difference in these scenarios? 

Not really when you consider the overall message.  Your situation would have been seen the same as the 5/6-year old one today...just 10 years ago.

They are obviously both great athletes, I wonder how many people told their parents they were crazy for allowing their children to miss their childhood because of all the sports they played. 

a little off topic but......I have to comment then I am done... do you young parents not know how hard it is to play college sports?  D1 baseball at the top 100 schools is a job.... 

 

There is too much put on young bodies, young minds .... let them be kids, you have been blessed with a healthy child, let them grow and exp. life

 

What the rush to get to college sports?   My sons won a ton of travel games at 9-12  and we really never talk about it. If was fun and all, but playing travel ball then did not give them a free pass to college ball....

 

Chances are their bodies will change , their interest.... it just seems a lot of people are drinking the kool-aid and spending too much money... not to mention that these childern really want to please you and when you put them in a no win situation  not living up to your expectations.... trouble trouble trouble.  ...

 

Ok I'm done....

 

You missed the point. These kids did't miss out on their childhood. They played as many sports as possible as preteens. They didn't play on any elite travel teams until middle school. Even then they played two sports for their school. What they got was an enhanced environment in middle school and high school by being able to travel the world for their country. The girl passed on the Olympic team as a senior in high school to have a completely normal senior year.

I don't think that was the scenario (maybe I'm wrong). I don't think there was any talk of punishment extending into the spring and it was a fall seson with games and everything. I also didn't see any indication that he was being punished (and I wouldn't call it punishment) for playing football. He lost playing time for missing a practice. Football just happened to be thereason he missed the practice. It was a fall season, not fall workoputs. Now, if I were informed that he was forced to sign on for fall baseball in order to play spring/summer baseball, that would be different. I don't believe that was the case. As to the Stanford players you mention - it does happen in college. However, what you find is that those players don't participate at all in their second sport until the season of the first sport has finished. i would imagine that the Stanford basketball coach wouldn't give a kid a starting spot on the basketball team in November if he was missing practically every practice and half the games. No. the more common way it's done (and the way I always did it) was the kid could certainly be a part of the fall team if he wanted (and I encouraged it), but he wouldn't get playing time in front of the kids who decided to make fall about commiting to improving their baseball game. It also wouldn't affect his ability to earn PT in the spring assuming he was then making the practices and games.

I have zero experience on how the sport has changed, I concede that point.  However, I hope you would agree that it HAS changed and that 8th/9th/10th graders are being scouted and receiving offers from colleges. 

 

My kid is in 7th grade, in a baseball hotbed area, already talking about when he plays in college.  Will a college take a look at a 12 year old throwing 70mph with decent mechanics...the answer is sadly...yeah they are or they wouldn't be committed in 8th grade.

 

So while it might sound absolutely ridiculous to someone who went through this 10-20 years ago...this scenario and training schedule I have mentioned is fairly common now not because the parents are pushing their kids but because the kids are having dreams of playing in college and sad as it is the coaches are looking younger and younger.

 

I know my kid could stop growing tomorrow, I know his velocity might never make it out of the 70's, I know that he might not be able to track in curve balls thus ending his hitting streak of batting 3rd or4th for 6 years, and I know that if he announces what he really wants to do is quit baseball and take up ballet I'll be researching dance studios within our area within the hour because I want him to be a kid doing what HE wants to do...it just happens to be baseball.

However, what you find is that those players don't participate at all in their second sport until the season of the first sport has finished.

Uh, not true.  This I know from firsthand knowledge.

My kid is in 7th grade, in a baseball hotbed area, already talking about when he plays in college.  Will a college take a look at a 12 year old throwing 70mph with decent mechanics...the answer is sadly...yeah they are or they wouldn't be committed in 8th grade.

Parents have FAR more ability to stop that 6-sigma nonsense than they believe I guess.  Don't bite on that bait.  It doesn't favor your son one single bit.

I find this hard to believe with there having been several examples I know of. Not saying it isn't true, just that I've seen it a thousand times and never seen for example a football/basketball player play on the basketball team until the second semester. Do you have an example. Should be easy enough to varify by NCAA statistics.

Yes, I have an example.

 

Teammate of my son at Stanford.  Finished 2nd in Heisman voting (you figure it out) - attended football practice many times DURING baseball season sometimes instead of baseball practice.  Still, started nearly every game in baseball.  And football too.

 

Fact.

Bo Jackson would be simple enough to varify.

The title is Race to nowhere in Youth Sports.  College I can believe that this happens but isn't it prohibited in high school?

Exactly. I think the problem is that it's hard to say no to something like that. That situation is nothing but a win for the college and a drag on the kid. Unlike footballrecruiting where coches have no respect at all for the verbal commitment, in baseball you've basically taken yourself off the market for your whole high school career. Then when that college that offered you in the eighth grade says your junior year showed you aren't D1 material, you're basically screwed.

I'm talking about at the exact same time where the seasons overlap. Football and baseball don't overlap. I think we may be on the wrong page. For example, Charlei Ward played both football and basketball at FSU and Matt Jones did both at Arkansas. However, neither joined the basketball team until after the last football game was played. Football/baseball doesn't cause any problem.

I'll take your word for that one. I obviously can't varify that with statistics since the sports don't overlap.

It's not allowed in PA. A player can't even participate in organized practice in the next sport until the active season is completed including playoffs. Optional off season workouts are ok while playing another sport.

I don't know that I would go that high.  I think fall ball is for those kids who don't play football.  Keeps the kids off the couch. 

So how does benching the kid who had a football commitment during fall ball help "iron out the kinks?"  All it does is punish him for playing the in season sport, in which he is getting similar physical activity as an "off season" workout.   

Actually, it can be verified considering he played in the spring game. Now, the question is, was he allowed to skip a football practice to play in the fall ball program? By the way, just say the name: Andrew Luck. There are some exceptions. I wonder if some third string defensive back who was also the backup rf'er would have been given the same consideration?

".this scenario and training schedule I have mentioned is fairly common now not because the parents are pushing their kids but because the kids are having dreams of playing in college and sad as it is the coaches are looking younger and younger."

 

Boy, this entire summary is one which leaves me speechless , but realizing it could be more common than not.  If there was one part I might call a bit of BS on it is the idea this is "not because the parents are pushing their kids."  Of course it is. From our experience, 12 year olds don't dream of playing in college. They dream of playing MLB.

12 year olds are not aware that Coach Savage of UCLA has turned college recruiting and early verbals a bit upside down. Parents do though.

CaCo, I truly appreciate your letting it all hang out there. I think the discussion and what you are feeling about the entire process and why your son is on this 12 year old team is widely shared., I would suggest to you it is not necessary and might actually be counterproductive.

When our son was ages 10-14, one of his friends was widely viewed as the top player in our area.  By 6th grade he was 6" and he was a LHP. By the time he was a senior in HS, he was 6'5" and the MVP of one of  the toughest and most competitive HS baseball leagues anywhere.  Most teams  start 9 D1 players with more not starting.

By his freshman year in college, he could barely throw a baseball(was a pitcher and 1B) because of the year round efforts of his parents dating back to age 10.

The race you are describing is the same race which Dr Andrews outspokenly says the developing body and musculo-skeletal system cannot accommodate for many teen men.

Even if it were true that all of this 12 year old stuff is because the players want to play in college and be on the list of early verbals of Coach Savage(used as only one example) the adult role is to moderate, not buy in and to create balance knowing how naive this is for a 12 year old.  Just my views though and those of someone I know very well who is a D1 college coach and believes much of this is nuts.. 

 

I just remembered that there were two kids on the high school varsity baseball team (starters) that played in a golf tournament during the baseball season.  We even had to postpone a game because of this.  Also had two baseball players that participated in UIL academic teams during the season.  

When my son was twelve he mostly thought about how far his LL all star team could go in the tournament. They played into August. He did mention playing college ball. It was because I played and his older sister had already committed for softball. I told him to think about making the middle school and high school team before talking about college ball.

 

The first time I gave any serious thought to college ball is when showcase teams started making contact when he was fifteen. The 12u travel team was about developing the LL all star team. The 13u to 16u teams were about developing high school players.

Unfortunately, I think much of the reason you've got schools like Miss. St., UCLA, and USC able to wrap up eighth graders is because of a lack of knowledge. parents and kids who've taken the time to learn early about the recruiting process are far better equiped to be able to say "no" than the kid taken by surprise at a UCLA scholarship offer.

This is an interesting thread, maybe more for us newbies who haven't had these discussions before. There are some great points being made on both sides of the argument. We've never stressed travel ball, although we did move our son from the local rec league to the more competitive local league. The league we moved to grouped kids by playing ability so kids with more advanced skills could play with and against other kids of roughly the same level. If a kid wanted to be purely rec and play only for fun, there was a still a place in the league for them.

 

My son has done some private training and camps along the way. Our main reason was because he is a left handed pitcher and my husband is a righty. It was just easier to get pitching evaluations and instruction from someone who understood more about lefties. However, it was only sporadically and nothing we spent tons of money on each year.

 

Unfortunately, my son did have a coach tell him that he would have to specialize and 13 was a good time to do it. This was when he played for a local academy that talked about doing some travelling, but that never really materialized. Thankfully, we didn't agree and didn't follow his advice. But, when someone appears to know more than you do about a subject, it is really tempting to follow their lead. This is the same coach that told my kid (and several others) that they would have a hard time making their HS varsity team. Wow, did that ever light a fire under my son. As an incoming freshman, he already got a chance to play with the JV and Varsity teams for summer ball. He got that chance by seeking out opportunities to work with one of the assistant coaches in the spring. He showed initiative, along with skill.

I think we're lucky at our HS because the Varsity baseball coach is also an assistant football coach, so there is no pressure to play only one sport. There is a little bit of friction between baseball and basketball for summer teams, but kids tend to gravitate toward the one they are more passionate about and it seems to work out.

 

Now, if you want to talk about specializing and year around training, let's chat about gymnastics. We went through 12 years of gymnastics (8 competitive years) with our daughter and baseball pressure and specialization is nothing compared to that. Be thankful that there are all these great opportunities for playing baseball beyond high school at so many levels. The same cannot be said for gymnastics and it leads to some pretty crazy parental behavior.

 

Thanks again for the lively and informative discussion.