quote:I was just wondering...where did Ted hear about the "Kentucky Stretch"?
Good one, Power.....
Probably from Hank Greenberg.....
Good one, Power.....
Probably from Hank Greenberg.....
Good one, Power.....
Probably from Hank Greenberg.....
Bluedog,
I agree (this hurts) with your point about the two hips can work independent of each other. Ball and socket design allows for alot of different movements. Would be hard to develop torque through your core otherwise. The problem comes when there is confusion of the hip sockets versus the pelvis/pelvic girdle itself.
Nice pic of Mel Ott...he really took advantage of the short porch at the Polo Grounds.
I agree (this hurts) with your point about the two hips can work independent of each other. Ball and socket design allows for alot of different movements. Would be hard to develop torque through your core otherwise. The problem comes when there is confusion of the hip sockets versus the pelvis/pelvic girdle itself.
Nice pic of Mel Ott...he really took advantage of the short porch at the Polo Grounds.
Power,
Kentucky Stretch...no idea if wasn't Luscomb, Bush, Venzor, Sheehan or Cronin.
My guess (actually WAG) is Luscomb.
And just what was/is The Kentucky Stretch if there is such a thing? The only stretch in Kentucky I care about is at Churchill Downs.
Couldn't been Greenberg (LOL)..he wasn't particularly fond of Williams and his wonderful personality.
Kentucky Stretch...no idea if wasn't Luscomb, Bush, Venzor, Sheehan or Cronin.
My guess (actually WAG) is Luscomb.
And just what was/is The Kentucky Stretch if there is such a thing? The only stretch in Kentucky I care about is at Churchill Downs.
Couldn't been Greenberg (LOL)..he wasn't particularly fond of Williams and his wonderful personality.
quote:Originally posted by S. Abrams:
Power,
Kentucky Stretch...no idea if wasn't Luscomb, Bush, Venzor, Sheehan or Cronin.
My guess (actually WAG) is Luscomb.
And just what was/is The Kentucky Stretch if there is such a thing? The only stretch in Kentucky I care about is at Churchill Downs.
Couldn't been Greenberg (LOL)..he wasn't particularly fond of Williams and his wonderful personality.
Sorry, it's an inside joke between me and swingbuilder. He doesn't believe in stretch between the hips. He believes you should hit with a basketball or beach ball between your knees. He calls it "pressure between the knees". Obviously, Bluedog and I don't agree with his assessment and from your earlier post, I'd say you don't agree with him either. He dubbed stretch between the hips as "the Kentucky Stretch".
Power,
Was wondering cause I had never heard of the phrase (among many).
If swingbuilder is talking about a slight tension on the inside of the thighs/knees during the stride until toe touch, I understand his point but don't know if all hitters need to do so. I always had a very slight tension (inside knees/thighs) during the stride in an effort to stay somewhat centered and avoid drifting my weight forward over my front foot...but it stopped at toe touch, and I always viewed it as a personal quirk. Can't say I would advocate/teach actually swinging/hitting with that tension. JMO
A beachball? I would pull a hamstring if I tried.
Was wondering cause I had never heard of the phrase (among many).
If swingbuilder is talking about a slight tension on the inside of the thighs/knees during the stride until toe touch, I understand his point but don't know if all hitters need to do so. I always had a very slight tension (inside knees/thighs) during the stride in an effort to stay somewhat centered and avoid drifting my weight forward over my front foot...but it stopped at toe touch, and I always viewed it as a personal quirk. Can't say I would advocate/teach actually swinging/hitting with that tension. JMO
A beachball? I would pull a hamstring if I tried.
This would be chasing knees and NOT what you want to do.
This guy has the correct pressure BETWEEN HIS KNEES
This guy has PRESSURE BETWEEN HIS KNEES
and this guy
and these guys do too.
Abrams...let me see you stretch those hips wider apart....good luck.
And precisely why those in question won't have and don't have any high level hitters.
The pressure between the knees is how good hitters store and direct engery and adjust to off speed pitches and ball levels and locations.
But keep trying to stretch those hips apart. That should take you a lifetime and child birth to achieve!!!
This guy has the correct pressure BETWEEN HIS KNEES
This guy has PRESSURE BETWEEN HIS KNEES
and this guy
and these guys do too.
Abrams...let me see you stretch those hips wider apart....good luck.
And precisely why those in question won't have and don't have any high level hitters.
The pressure between the knees is how good hitters store and direct engery and adjust to off speed pitches and ball levels and locations.
But keep trying to stretch those hips apart. That should take you a lifetime and child birth to achieve!!!
A rope wrapped around two spools about two feet apart. Can you stretch the rope between the two without spreading the spools apart??? Of course you can, but the guy who thinks he has developed high level hitters, probably can't figure that out or at least, he hasn't so far. 
Swingbuilder, that example of "chasing knees" is in no way what I think of when using the same cue. In fact, the video of Pena clip is more along the lines. Take a look at the relationship of those knees. You can clearly see the relationship of knee to knee.
Swing,
Nice clips.
Who is talking about "stretching the hips apart"? Never said that myself. Can't be done.
Do not confuse hip opening/knee opening with hip rotation. Don't confuse the action of the hip socket during the stride with the rotation of the pelvis is what I've said. Can't say it any plainer than that. If you are saying the opening of the front knee is hip/pelvic rotation, I totally disagree.
Imagine two rods vertically stuck in the ground connected by a spring that is screwed to the inside part of the rods (screwed at the closest point between the rods).Distance between the rods is maintained constant by a brace between the rods with bearings connecting the rods and the brace. Now rotate one rod (front) away from the other rod while the brace maintains the exact same distance between the rods and the other rod (rear)is kept from rotating. What happens to the spring? It stretches yet the rods have not moved away from each other and the brace has never moved. The point where the screw is attached and the bearings represent the hip socket and the rods themselves the femur/legs and the brace is the pelvis. No lateral movement yet there is rotational movement but not of the pelvis/brace. No actual stretch distance wise between the hips yet tension (energy)is created between the hips.
IF ANYBODY CAN SAY IT PLAINER OR MORE CLEARLY JUMP IN. IF YOU DISAGREE TEAR MY MODEL APART AND HAVE AT IT BUT SPELL IT OUT.
Like I said I understand the knee tension and did so myself but not sure if it a teaching point with all hitters and swing types. If you teach this tension to all hitters that's fine...tell me how you do it.
Sorry, but I don't understand the point you are trying to make.
Nice clips.
Who is talking about "stretching the hips apart"? Never said that myself. Can't be done.
Do not confuse hip opening/knee opening with hip rotation. Don't confuse the action of the hip socket during the stride with the rotation of the pelvis is what I've said. Can't say it any plainer than that. If you are saying the opening of the front knee is hip/pelvic rotation, I totally disagree.
Imagine two rods vertically stuck in the ground connected by a spring that is screwed to the inside part of the rods (screwed at the closest point between the rods).Distance between the rods is maintained constant by a brace between the rods with bearings connecting the rods and the brace. Now rotate one rod (front) away from the other rod while the brace maintains the exact same distance between the rods and the other rod (rear)is kept from rotating. What happens to the spring? It stretches yet the rods have not moved away from each other and the brace has never moved. The point where the screw is attached and the bearings represent the hip socket and the rods themselves the femur/legs and the brace is the pelvis. No lateral movement yet there is rotational movement but not of the pelvis/brace. No actual stretch distance wise between the hips yet tension (energy)is created between the hips.
IF ANYBODY CAN SAY IT PLAINER OR MORE CLEARLY JUMP IN. IF YOU DISAGREE TEAR MY MODEL APART AND HAVE AT IT BUT SPELL IT OUT.
Like I said I understand the knee tension and did so myself but not sure if it a teaching point with all hitters and swing types. If you teach this tension to all hitters that's fine...tell me how you do it.
Sorry, but I don't understand the point you are trying to make.
quote:Originally posted by S. Abrams:
Swing,
Nice clips.
Who is talking about "stretching the hips apart"? Never said that myself. Can't be done.
Do not confuse hip opening/knee opening with hip rotation. Don't confuse the action of the hip socket during the stride with the rotation of the pelvis is what I've said. Can't say it any plainer than that. If you are saying the opening of the front knee is hip/pelvic rotation, I totally disagree.
Imagine two rods vertically stuck in the ground connected by a spring that is screwed to the inside part of the rods (screwed at the closest point between the rods).Distance between the rods is maintained constant by a brace between the rods with bearings connecting the rods and the brace. Now rotate one rod (front) away from the other rod while the brace maintains the exact same distance between the rods and the other rod (rear)is kept from rotating. What happens to the spring? It stretches yet the rods have not moved away from each other and the brace has never moved. The point where the screw is attached and the bearings represent the hip socket and the rods themselves the femur/legs and the brace is the pelvis. No lateral movement yet there is rotational movement but not of the pelvis/brace. No actual stretch distance wise between the hips yet tension (energy)is created between the hips.
IF ANYBODY CAN SAY IT PLAINER OR MORE CLEARLY JUMP IN. IF YOU DISAGREE TEAR MY MODEL APART AND HAVE AT IT BUT SPELL IT OUT.
Like I said I understand the knee tension and did so myself but not sure if it a teaching point with all hitters and swing types. If you teach this tension to all hitters that's fine...tell me how you do it.
Sorry, but I don't understand the point you are trying to make.
I agree with what you're saying here and is what I was getting at with the two spool analogy. I made it a rope because builder doesn't believe in stretch, lol. He teaches pressure between the knees by having the hitter hold a basketball or beach ball between their knees and they try to keep the ball from falling out.
Abrams...lol
So your going to use the lead leg to produce stretch by flaring the lead knee while you hold the rear leg static. In a rear legged approach.
You spin the spools Abrams and try your best to make adjustments.
There must be pressure between the knees to make adjustments and to direct the energy and to have quality balance.
Heck even Powers son does it....want me to show you.
Turning the spool is bleed, its flare, its draining the drive train....Abrams, he'll figure it out one day....when its to late.
So your going to use the lead leg to produce stretch by flaring the lead knee while you hold the rear leg static. In a rear legged approach.
You spin the spools Abrams and try your best to make adjustments.
There must be pressure between the knees to make adjustments and to direct the energy and to have quality balance.
Heck even Powers son does it....want me to show you.
Turning the spool is bleed, its flare, its draining the drive train....Abrams, he'll figure it out one day....when its to late.
Coach 25.....the word chase means THAT exactly...run after. So you want the rear knee to run after the lead knee? SO the force is applied by the lead knee and leg in your swing theory?
Good for you...its not in mine.
Good for you...its not in mine.
Power,
The spool deal worked; thought I'd add some body parts.
The kicker is that you can/should have both the Power/Bluedog stretch and the Swingbuilder tension in the same swing.
****it ain't like we're dealing only with one group of muscles during the swing.****
Basic Kinesiology 101. Actually a real difficult subject when you consider the number of muscles and the fact that muscles either contract/pull or relax but they can't push. Took just enough Kinesiology to realize I needed to change majors.
I feel a Rodney King moment coming soon.
NAHHH...that wouldn't be any fun.
The spool deal worked; thought I'd add some body parts.
The kicker is that you can/should have both the Power/Bluedog stretch and the Swingbuilder tension in the same swing.
****it ain't like we're dealing only with one group of muscles during the swing.****
Basic Kinesiology 101. Actually a real difficult subject when you consider the number of muscles and the fact that muscles either contract/pull or relax but they can't push. Took just enough Kinesiology to realize I needed to change majors.
I feel a Rodney King moment coming soon.
NAHHH...that wouldn't be any fun.
Swing,
Good point about balance and adjustments.
Now read again. Look at your clips again. Closely.
If you think opening the front knee is done solely as a power source, you aren't reading all what has been said but rather inferring your own opinion.
Power/Bluedog are looking at a power transmission source due to stretch and you are looking at a control/adjustment source with your tension. They are not mutually exclusive but rather work together AT THE SAME TIME. You can argue which is more important but if you are arguing that they can't exist together...well, you are simply wrong.
Quit thinking of the "spools" as a SOURCE of power is the best advice I can give. Otherwise you think of "spinning" which is not what happens and is too simplistic a term for what happens during the swing.
Basic Kinesiology 101.
Good point about balance and adjustments.
Now read again. Look at your clips again. Closely.
If you think opening the front knee is done solely as a power source, you aren't reading all what has been said but rather inferring your own opinion.
Power/Bluedog are looking at a power transmission source due to stretch and you are looking at a control/adjustment source with your tension. They are not mutually exclusive but rather work together AT THE SAME TIME. You can argue which is more important but if you are arguing that they can't exist together...well, you are simply wrong.
Quit thinking of the "spools" as a SOURCE of power is the best advice I can give. Otherwise you think of "spinning" which is not what happens and is too simplistic a term for what happens during the swing.
Basic Kinesiology 101.
ok Abrams....the Kentucky Stretch is being performed by the guy in the Orange shirt.
You teach your hitters that all you want. Have fun with that!
quote:Originally posted by S. Abrams:
The kicker is that you can/should have both the Power/Bluedog stretch and the Swingbuilder tension in the same swing.
I agree with "tension". I don't agree with pressure between.
Swing,
Getting a bit touchy aren't we...ain't curing cancer here and nobody is dying to hear the final answer to this discussion. Being that there are about 20 terms used by everybody to describe the same thing, I'd say the Middle East Peace Talks have a better chance of reaching an agreement.
I can see why Kentucky is a basketball state...
neither of these guys are that close to what I have described. Of the two, the orange shirt is the worst; in fact he breaks a cardinal rule about the stride. Reread everything...again. Give me the kid in the blue anyday; ain't there yet but he has some potential.
Argue all you want but it doesn't change what the MLB hitters are doing in the clips. All have "tension" and all have "stretch" during their stride. If it makes more sense change the Power/Bluedog "stretch" to "tension"...just that this tension is through the hips versus between the knees/thighs.
You can then focus on whatever tension you want and that your students understand you because it matters not one bit what you or I know but rather what the student understands.
You are correct about the hips and hands driving the swing.
This is becoming an Nym*n/Epstein/Yeager type discussion...and we wonder why the coaches shake their heads?
Power,
Tension, pressure...may be an issue of semantics. I prefer tension as a descriptive term also but will not get too hung up if someone likes to say pressure. How about static pressure?
Getting a bit touchy aren't we...ain't curing cancer here and nobody is dying to hear the final answer to this discussion. Being that there are about 20 terms used by everybody to describe the same thing, I'd say the Middle East Peace Talks have a better chance of reaching an agreement.
I can see why Kentucky is a basketball state...
neither of these guys are that close to what I have described. Of the two, the orange shirt is the worst; in fact he breaks a cardinal rule about the stride. Reread everything...again. Give me the kid in the blue anyday; ain't there yet but he has some potential.
Argue all you want but it doesn't change what the MLB hitters are doing in the clips. All have "tension" and all have "stretch" during their stride. If it makes more sense change the Power/Bluedog "stretch" to "tension"...just that this tension is through the hips versus between the knees/thighs.
You can then focus on whatever tension you want and that your students understand you because it matters not one bit what you or I know but rather what the student understands.
You are correct about the hips and hands driving the swing.
This is becoming an Nym*n/Epstein/Yeager type discussion...and we wonder why the coaches shake their heads?
Power,
Tension, pressure...may be an issue of semantics. I prefer tension as a descriptive term also but will not get too hung up if someone likes to say pressure. How about static pressure?
quote:Originally posted by swingbuilder:
Coach 25.....the word chase means THAT exactly...run after. So you want the rear knee to run after the lead knee? SO the force is applied by the lead knee and leg in your swing theory?
Good for you...its not in mine.
Actually, I believe I'm on the record several times and on several sites saying that I want pressure/force on the inside part of the back knee. I also don't have a problem with anyone talking about the back hip. I believe I've made that clear several times. I was stating my opinion that the video you provided of what you termed a knee chase is not typical of what a lot of people think of when using the phrase "knee chase."
This is not my interpretation of "knee chase:"
This image is:
BTW, take a look at what I describe as pressure on teh inside part of the knee in the above video.
Take care!
Hey 25, you call it what you want. Chase is a spin of the hips.
quote:Originally posted by S. Abrams:
Power,
Tension, pressure...may be an issue of semantics. I prefer tension as a descriptive term also but will not get too hung up if someone likes to say pressure. How about static pressure?
It's not a matter of what it's called, it's a matter of how he teaches it. He has said to put a basketball or beach ball between the knees and swing without the ball falling. That is just stupid, sorry. BTW, I have never said that I teach someone to do what Brandon (kid in the orange) is doing in this swing. What I have said is that I don't think he's bleeding anything and I have asked builder to tell me what he thinks he's bleeding. All he will ever say is, "the power source". To that, I say, what power source? I believe in "balanced stretch" from the front hip all the way to the hands, centered in a rear hip pivot point.
Power,
I could see the beachball done as a drill to teach a kid to have some tension and maintain balance during the stride. Actual hitting...not so much unless the kid can't carry over the drill to the swing then I might try it. Some hitters may need a drill like this; some will not. Like I said, I used the knee/thigh tension to give me (personally) a quiet, controlled and balanced stride when I played.
Orange shirt (Brandon)swing appears to be rotating hips during/into the stride ( see back hip). Looks like a prime candidate for fighting bag drag later during the swing. looks like the typical "drag the bat through the zone" start. More of a stomp or step than a stride. JMO.
The "chase" swing has no knee tension at all. Back leg/knee is all over the place. Develops no torque through the core or hips. Has to be a pitcher or needs to consider it. ****watch the back knee and back hip and tell me which is powering the hip rotation; to me he is using the back knee to drag the rear hip into rotation. Wondering if others are seeing the same thing?
As I have said repeated times in numerous threads, I focus alot on the relationship and timing of the hands and the rear hip. The front hip is important but plays second fiddle to the rear hip,IMO.
I'm stopping at the "balanced stretch"...we can't even all get on the same page for the stride much less the full kinetic chain going from the hip to the hands.
I could see the beachball done as a drill to teach a kid to have some tension and maintain balance during the stride. Actual hitting...not so much unless the kid can't carry over the drill to the swing then I might try it. Some hitters may need a drill like this; some will not. Like I said, I used the knee/thigh tension to give me (personally) a quiet, controlled and balanced stride when I played.
Orange shirt (Brandon)swing appears to be rotating hips during/into the stride ( see back hip). Looks like a prime candidate for fighting bag drag later during the swing. looks like the typical "drag the bat through the zone" start. More of a stomp or step than a stride. JMO.
The "chase" swing has no knee tension at all. Back leg/knee is all over the place. Develops no torque through the core or hips. Has to be a pitcher or needs to consider it. ****watch the back knee and back hip and tell me which is powering the hip rotation; to me he is using the back knee to drag the rear hip into rotation. Wondering if others are seeing the same thing?
As I have said repeated times in numerous threads, I focus alot on the relationship and timing of the hands and the rear hip. The front hip is important but plays second fiddle to the rear hip,IMO.
I'm stopping at the "balanced stretch"...we can't even all get on the same page for the stride much less the full kinetic chain going from the hip to the hands.
quote:Originally posted by S. Abrams:
Power,
I could see the beachball done as a drill to teach a kid to have some tension and maintain balance during the stride. Actual hitting...not so much unless the kid can't carry over the drill to the swing then I might try it. Some hitters may need a drill like this; some will not. Like I said, I used the knee/thigh tension to give me (personally) a quiet, controlled and balanced stride when I played.
Orange shirt (Brandon)swing appears to be rotating hips during/into the stride ( see back hip). Looks like a prime candidate for fighting bag drag later during the swing. looks like the typical "drag the bat through the zone" start. More of a stomp or step than a stride. JMO.
The "chase" swing has no knee tension at all. Back leg/knee is all over the place. Develops no torque through the core or hips. Has to be a pitcher or needs to consider it. ****watch the back knee and back hip and tell me which is powering the hip rotation; to me he is using the back knee to drag the rear hip into rotation. Wondering if others are seeing the same thing?
As I have said repeated times in numerous threads, I focus alot on the relationship and timing of the hands and the rear hip. The front hip is important but plays second fiddle to the rear hip,IMO.
I'm stopping at the "balanced stretch"...we can't even all get on the same page for the stride much less the full kinetic chain going from the hip to the hands.
***Just added a question to previous post about the "chase" swing clip and what everybody believes is powering the hip rotation in that clip. Maybe should have started a new thread as this one got hijacked a long time ago.
Of course tension is involved in the legs/hips during the swing.....But, the beach ball stuff ain't it....
Swingbuilder, no way you got it right...You're on a dangling limb right now....
Swingbuilder, no way you got it right...You're on a dangling limb right now....
Blue Tman that hurts you all the way from St Louis.
Keep Flarin it!
Keep Flarin it!
