The Truth Hurts

The truth may be hurt but hopefully the boy with be better for it

You did the right thing....

I know you are not happy right now, but you owed your future players to be honest with this coach about this player.

This coach will call you again about someone elses son and you will possibly give that player a boost towards his dream of playing college baseball.........had you not been honest about this young man today...and if this coach had been burned by your recommendation, he may never have called you again.........

So accept my thanks for being honest and upfront....my thanks for your service to the youth of your community, and my thanks for someone elses son who will need your valued recommendation down the line....

Coach,

Look at it another way:

When asked the question - you could have outright lied - or lied by omission.

The truth is the only thing that matters in the end IMO.

Coach.....if the kid isn't showing up for weight room....well....that says tons to me about attitude, work ethic...and his goals

Maybe this will be a wake up call for him.....and then again maybe he doesn't want it..... as badly as you feel right now.

I agree with the others Coach - you owe it to your other players, this coach, and the kid in question to be honest. Putting him in a place where commitment, conditioning, and dedication is important obviously wouldn't be a good fit for him or the school. Like ArizonaRed said - maybe this will open the kid's eyes.

I know what my son's HS coach thought of him because some college coaches told us what he said in phone calls. However, with questionnaires, I always sent an addressed and stamped envelope with it because I wanted him to know we wouldn't see it. I wanted my son where he belonged and that honest evaluation was part of the equation.

I believe in a fair honest and complete report.

If this is all that was said, I have a problem with you if I'm your parent.

Obviously, he should be in the weight room.

Also, just as obvious, are his talents. Were those discussed? Does he play another sport? Are there any reasons for not being there?

Be sure to include his talents and his other qualities. Then I have no problem.

Give the entire balance sheet.

i agree with you telling the truth 100%. the program has to be bigger than any individual. if you lie you've hurt everybody in the program.im sure you told the whole story - the good and the bad - talent, etc. our kids know that. we talk about it all the time. as far as parents go - i coach kids not their parents. they know that up front.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:


Also, just as obvious, are his talents. Were those discussed? Does he play another sport? Are there any reasons for not being there?

Be sure to include his talents and his other qualities. Then I have no problem.

Give the entire balance sheet.

My comments in an earlier inquiry were what prompted the call. That was basically how I project these two players in his program. Only after that discussion and comments on how the two kids playing for him now work as well as two players that he recruited a few years ago did the topic of how these new "recruits" fit in. Linear, I agree with everything you posted. THAT IS WHY I FEEL SO BAD! When asked about this knowing what is required of college players, I then had to answer with the truth. I work very hard at getting my players into college. I just won't hurt my reputation and the chances for future players by telling half truths and misrepresentations.

I agree with the others. You can't put your program's reputation on the line, as well as your own as a coach, and recommend somebody you don't think is willing to put the work in.

It hurts but think about the next guy that would have a shot at this particular school but is looked over because your evaluations don't mean as much to that school because you recommended someone that wasn't worthy of it.

Coach-
As you know, "crying wolf" won't help your program in the long run or this KID in the short term. You have to call a spade a spade sometimes, you know? I've had to do this as well, and it is never easy...but as I tell my players all the time "Success is never on sale..you always must pay full price." If they don't or won't, I can't say they do....or I have hurt my own credibility, the program's credibility, and the future chances for young men coming through our program that WILL work as hard as they'll need to to compete at the collegiate level.

quote:

by B25: I know I did the right thing for my program.

b25, hey, the truth is always reasonable, but the right thing? - if ya have a twinge of guilt, maybe there's good reason

you didn't strike me as a hs coach with an "optional" conditioning program, but if yours is optional, why bust on a player for it? in these parts unless the player is "in season" in another sport, he works out -

from your info and the college guy's interest, I'd guess the player was an upperclass starter/key player on your team - so I could see the college guy asking about baseball work ethics, current skill level, maybe size, weight etc AND your opinion on whether the kid "had it" for the next level -

another way to be truthful could'a been -
"coach, when this guy gets into a "supervised" college strength & conditioning program - the sky's the limit for him"

good luck





.

that wouldnt have been the truth. i know from experience even when you had a kid that worked his butt off for you and you give him a good recommendation, but when he gets to school he quits or whatever, you have a hard time getting them to look at another one of your kids. yuo have to tell them the good and the bad.
the only questions college coaches ever ask me are:
1. what type a student and kid is he
2. what type of family is he from
3. does he get along with his teammates
4. whats is coachability and work ethic
the college coach makes the final determination of the ability level.those are questions you have to answer truthfully.

Bee,

The reason I feel bad is I want to be able to promote my kids but was put on the spot. I'm sorry you think so little of me. No, our sessions aren't mandatory. In fact, I make a statement each and everytime about that. Also, we have s-o-c-cer, football, basketball, lady so---ccer players etc. in our workout. You suggest that when asked about this young man, I avoid the issue. I won't do that. I've always functioned believing in the Truth. Also, I didn't avoid the issue with the kid. I called him in and told him about the conversation and exactly what was said. I wouldn't have brought the issue up but the other coach did and I followed my convictions. Again,sorry you think so little of me.

quote:

by 25: sorry you think so little of me

gee coach YOU did ask for opinions -

as you over-reacted to my post, it's tough to figure why you handled the the college coach's inquiry that way - the conclusion from your further posts is that you "bad rapped" to a college coach YOUR player who was an asset to your program and had done absolutly EVERYTHING YOU REQUIRED of him

it sounds like you'd prefer if that player did more (than you require) on his own - if so, that seems like something between you, your motivational skills, and the player

I just doubt the "knife in the back" is a good motivator, when all ya had to say is "the kid does everything I require" -

from your info given there is NO reason to believe anything other than as future requirements get tougher in college where conditioning is "mandantory" - that the player would STILL continue doing EVERYTHING REQUIRED

guess I just don't get where you're going with it - or how you handled that helped anything

good luck



.

Bee, overreact? How am I over reacting? You said that you percieve that I'm one of those coaches that makes these weightlifting/plyo sessions mandatory. To suggest so is to suggest that I cheat. Perphaps it is different in other states but in Illinois, you can not make these session mandatory. You can not take roll. You can not make it sports specific in activity or participation. You can not make it so and therefore, the comment that you must not think much of me. I've reread my post and I just don't see the over reaction. If so, I apologize.

quote:

by b25: The kid came in and I had to tell him what I told that coach

why??

did he then say to you "quit helping me coach, you're killing me"?

it sounds more like a power play

btw, went back & re-read my posts and just like I thought none remotely suggested cheating - maybe tho doth protest too much



.

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:

quote:

by B25: I know I did the right thing for my program.

b25, hey, the truth is always reasonable, but the right thing? - if ya have a twinge of guilt, maybe there's good reason

you didn't strike me as a hs coach with an "optional" conditioning program, but if yours is optional, why bust on a player for it? in these parts unless the player is "in season" in another sport, he works out -

from your info and the college guy's interest, I'd guess the player was an upperclass starter/key player on your team - so I could see the college guy asking about baseball work ethics, current skill level, maybe size, weight etc AND your opinion on whether the kid "had it" for the next level -

another way to be truthful could'a been -
"coach, when this guy gets into a "supervised" college strength & conditioning program - the sky's the limit for him"

good luck





.

Yeah - he also could have said that the kid could be the next King of England. LOL

The kid doesnt attend the weight training.

That is the only fact that is clear.

Tell the truth.

If you have been doing this long enough, you will get that type of kid with those type of questions asked. I don't know about you, but I think it is sad that we have to apologize for telling the truth.

Bee....It could be worded this way.....'the player does the minimum to get by'. Does that sound better?

quote:

by its: Yeah - he also could have said that the kid could be the next King of England. LOL

lol, but US colleges don't recruit "princes", and college(s) DID call about the kid


he also could'a said, "he's one of my key players - how the hell should I know if he hits the weight room, taking attendance is a FELONY"

btw, in our area most baseball players do NOT use school facilities - but train baseball specific under supervision - a few do use the school but they don't usually last too long trying to "outlift" linebackers while the "lady athletes" look on





d8 - "some" hs coaches waaay overestimate the importance of their "critical evaluation" - like the college coach doesn't have a clue without their input - in this case he's not trying to SELL the player to a college,
geez, the coach called & expressed interest - all he has to do is stay out of the way & let it go where it goes


before b25 starts the "woe is me" stuff again
I DO NOT KNOW HIM, AND THAT IS A GENERAL STATEMENT DIRECTED AT NO ONE IN PARTICULAR


.

Bee,

Just out of curiosity, do you coach at the high school level?

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:

quote:

by its: Yeah - he also could have said that the kid could be the next King of England. LOL

lol, but US colleges don't recruit "princes", and college(s) DID call about the kid
he also could'a said, "he's one of my key players - how the hell should I know if he hits the weight room, taking attendance is a FELONY"


.

LOL - You got a point there Bee IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:

quote:

by b25: The kid came in and I had to tell him what I told that coach

why??

did he then say to you "quit helping me coach, you're killing me"?

it sounds more like a power play

btw, went back & re-read my posts and just like I thought none remotely suggested cheating - maybe tho doth protest too much
.

Mandatory Participation was explained = cheating in our area. Regarding telling the kid, I won't talk behind anyone's back. Some might find this a good quality instead of making jest of it. Regarding helping the kid try to get into college, most wouldn't. I made the initial contact and promoted the kid but answered the coaches question with the truth. Nuff said on subject. Have A GREAT DAY!

gutter, you have a pm

I think the title of this thread is very telling.

Waiting for you to chime in.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:
I think the title of this thread is very telling.

You have to be kidding right?

Having trouble following this thread.

Coach B,
Understand your dilemma but I also understand Bee's point of view. Maybe it's because of where our boys play, maybe because we understand that some really really good players get into really really good schools, not always been really really good HS rule followers.

When you get to college, you get REAL rules that have to be kept or you don't play.

For me, it seems like you were protecting your reputation, your first allegiance should go to what is right for your students, but if it was more than the weight room than let us know, because that seems like the only issue you had.

I just wanted to let you know if a college coach asked that question to my son's HS coach, he wouldn't have gotten into ANY school, based upon his HS work out ethic. His performance on the field and in the classroom was more important.
He sure does have one now!

TPM, I understand. I also realize I made the mistake of posting something in an open forum that troubled me while not being able to explain an entire discussion. I've learned a valuable lesson.

peace

when you come to a fork in the road - take it

FORK A

he tells the college coach the kid he's interested in won't workout,
he tells the kid he basicly ruined his chances with this college
he talks then about the player's role on his hs team this coming season - kid doesn't care or even listen


FORK B

tells the college coach that player strength/conditioning progress will be eval'd in Dec
tells the player about the college conversation - who gets his butt in gear
talks about the upcoming season on a positive note



just my thoughts

b25, c'mon this no time to "learn a lesson"
it's actually a pretty interesting topic, and 25 "attaboy" posts would have been a dis-service to it

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:
peace
b25, c'mon this no time to "learn a lesson"
it's actually a pretty interesting topic, and 25 "attaboy" posts would have been a dis-service to it

"Attaboys?" I thought this forum was a Coach's Forum and so, I posted something troubling that I encountered. Sharing this or other concerns with other coaches and getting their feedback is why I posts. However, such posts are easily mispercieved in this medium. I would imagine that most of the coaches on this site have encountered similar incidents. Obviously, you see the issue differently. TPM, also stated that her view was similar. I understand.

My feelings regarding what a coach tells college coaches--- be open and honest when talking about every kid.

From my own experience I can tell you that I get asked what type of kid the boy is; what is his work ethic; what do I think of him as a player and a person.

Some even ask if I think he can play his current position at the college level.

I also think it is important for a college coach to be aware of the players family situation: do they need financial assistance etc--this info may make a difference in the boy getting a good $$ package or not

If the coaches (HS or Travel Team) goal is to help his players get to the college level he cannot afford to mislead a college coach because once you "sugarcoat" the details you lose credibility and that damages the future for your program.

Trust me it isnt easy to tell one of your players that he cannot play at a certain college or that he probably cannot handle the academics at a certain school but it has to be done-- a senior in HS is 17 or 18 and becoming a young man and needs to be able to handle these situations--it is all part of becoming a man.

b25, sometimes different viewpoints can change a perspective, and I do appreciate yours - and sometimes it is difficult to convey a complex situation adequetly in a post

good luck



btw b25, you gotta bench the player this season, right?

btw II - TR, it wasn't a sales job, the college called interested in the "torpedoed" player

.

"sales job" ??????????????????

I was expressing my views on the matter of talking to college coaches not commenting on any previous posts.

The bottom line---YES--THE TRUTH DOES HURT At TIMES !!!

Sweet Sassy Molassy
Does the kid go to class? I'll bet he does because its required. Workouts are required in college. He'll go then too. He'll only get out what he puts in though. Maybe that's something he'll learn when he gets there. Don't write off some poor 17 year old. Geez Louise. He's obviously good enough to warrant consideration.

quote:

TPM wrote: I just wanted to let you know if a college coach asked that question to my son's HS coach, he wouldn't have gotten into ANY school, based upon his HS work out ethic. His performance on the field and in the classroom was more important.
He sure does have one now!

Me too. I guess I am glad the college coaches couldn't have found the high school coaches if they were James Bond, they moved around so much. All we had to deal with was an ex-summer team coach that went WAY out of his way to back-stab former players.

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:
torpedoed player

.

Bee, could we agree, as you search for adjectives to describe what I did to stop somewhere short of comparing me to Bin Laden?

Dado4, posted: "Me too. I guess I am glad the college coaches couldn't have found the high school coaches if they were James Bond, they moved around so much. All we had to deal with was an ex-summer team coach that went out of his way to back-stab former players."

Dad04, no one is calling on this young man EXCEPT to return my inquires. The result certainly wasn't what I had intended. The answer was a direct truthful answer to a Coach's question.

I'm missing something in these posts. Honesty is a bad thing? I'm supposed to lie and or skirt the truth when asked point blank about a player's commitment to the weightroom and/or ...? I have been critized (power trip) for telling the kid what I said so am I to deduce that I'm to talk behind the kid's back and not explain what was said? It is suggested that I won't play the kid because of this. (He will get the same shot as everyone else will when the tryouts begin.) Guess some values simply aren't comprable to mine. In the end, the kid, his parents and the college coach all know my opinion. Again, lessons learned.

Have a Great Weekend! It will be 70+ I have to get my cages in. I start basketball next week where I can corrupt yet another group of kids dealing honestly with them. (You'd think the school would realize now the damage I've done and get rid of me. However, I act so covertly that they'll never know. Well, at least I don't post my actions on public forums! )

Coach

You are cool relax

You did what you should have done

Have no problem you are not alone--- I am with you when it comes to being "defrocked"

THE most insecure coach I've ever encountered.

Just tell the truth - and let the chips fall where they may.

(I sound like a broken record - amongst other things LOL)

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:
peace

when you come to a fork in the road - take it

FORK A

he tells the college coach the kid he's interested in won't workout,
he tells the kid he basicly ruined his chances with this college
he talks then about the player's role on his hs team this coming season - kid doesn't care or even listen


FORK B

tells the college coach that player strength/conditioning progress will be eval'd in Dec
tells the player about the college conversation - who gets his butt in gear
talks about the upcoming season on a positive note



just my thoughts

b25, c'mon this no time to "learn a lesson"
it's actually a pretty interesting topic, and 25 "attaboy" posts would have been a dis-service to it

IMO this was the best post, and if it was handled this way (fork B), things would have a much better chance of working out for the College coach, the high school coach and the young player.