The Truth Hurts

hmmm,

quote:

by b25 then: "Yesterday, I had a call from a college coach. he "wanted" a couple of my kids" - - - - -

quote:

now: "NO ONE is calling on this young man EXCEPT to return my inquires" - - -

respectfully, a non-coaches perspective could be helpful at times, but - - -
something seems lost in the ever-changing story


again, good luck - it's a tough call -
hope your "honesty" doesn't come back to distract him when it's time for his "big play" in
YOUR "big game"




also, there's honesty & there's honesty - - - ie.

hey Manny, get your *** in gear running out GB's
or
hey Manny, . . . eh . . . how about another gator-aide


choose wisely, it's not rocket science dude


.

coachb,
you did the right thing. its obvious reading these posts who goes through this process on a yearly basis and who doesnt. our kids, like yours im sure, know up front we are going to be honest with recruiters. like you, i email and contact 100s of schools for all my seniors. if they call i will answer their questions truthfully. my kids know that. as i said in an earlier post one of the first questions they ask is work ethic. your kid hopefully will learn from this situation and the next school that calls you will be able to give another answer. the kid learned. lie about the kid and nothing is learned except getting by without working and being responsible is evidently ok.
theres enough of that being taught at home.

quote:

theres enough of that being taught at home.

Cuz I'm the coach!!

ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz............

raiderbb

I think you and I and coach are on the same page--- you get what you earn !!!

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:
hmmm,

quote:

by b25 then: "Yesterday, I had a call from a college coach. he "wanted" a couple of my kids" - - - - -

quote:

now: "NO ONE is calling on this young man EXCEPT to return my inquires" - - -

respectfully, a non-coaches perspective could be helpful at times, but - - -
something seems lost in the ever-changing story


again, good luck - it's a tough call -
hope your "honesty" doesn't come back to distract him when it's time for his "big play" in
YOUR "big game"




also, there's honesty & there's honesty - - - ie.

hey hon, let's eat light tonight - ok?
or
hey hon, you could stand to drop about 25#


choose wisely, it's not rocket science dude


.

I have never defended attentionseekerB25.......But, if you're going to question honesty, I'm going to ask you, Bee.......where is yours??

Argue all you want. Disagree all you want. But please, support your argument with something that makes sense.

Those two quotes can be perfectly consistent. You don't know that they aren't. Your assumption is from a short hand internet post. Very likely isn't the whole story.

Linear

Why do you question?

Your profile is very vague

Rshard: have you moved again and acquired new ID

I am also a grandpa--all that means is that we are old

dad04,
because im the coach goes on the bottom of the list. because im a concerned parent of my own kid, concerned teacher, concerned mentor, concerned friend, etc. our program is a family where baseball coach is low on the list of priorities.

Coach B,
I am confused. You state that no one is calling about the player, I thought from your original post he was not a work out freak so he couldn't play for that coach You know best what those coaches want. If he is not college ball material, or right for that program, then I understand.

Because I am not a coach or I may not understand what you have posted doesn't mean I do not share the same values as you or anyone else.

You usually are pretty articulate in your posts, have a passion about your job and compassion for your players. Maybe you were just too emotional to express what happened without giving all the information.

Regardless, I agree with the Fork B plan. It's not about not being truthful, it's about the delivery.

I am still confused!

Dad04,

Pitchers can get away with that until tehy go to college

Last post by, CoachB25 or as Lamberteachermanthecoachrshardlinear refers to as "attentionseekerB25" or "THE most insecure coach I've ever encountered." In reference to the seemingly inaccurate reference to who called whom. I called this coach trying to get him interested in my players (2 of them). I've sent 4 in the past. 2 present and 2 a few years ago. The coach wasn't in but read the profile I emailed him. He called back. Thus the conversation. TPM, I appreciate your observations. Apparently from various pms and posts here, this topic has touched some nerves. Makes me wonder why? Too close to home for some. As for Lamberteachermanthecoachrshardlinear whenever you grow a pair you know where to find me.

Darrell Butler
Triad Baseball
Troy, Illinois

Go Knights!

And Coach, don't forget... we know where to find him.

That's not how you sprinkle the Mozzarella! Watch the video again!

CoachB was asked a direct question about a player.....he gave a direct and honest answer. There is no problem here. He seems to have an established successful program. His players know what is expected. I am sure, like most of us, he does all he can to give his players an opportunity to play at the next level.

coach,my hat is off to you.i only wish my kids had a coach that cared enough about the game and their program that college coaches called for players.the school averages a new coach every 3 years at the school my youngest attends.his older brother had to walk on at the colleges he has played at so far.his hs school coach did not care one iota about moving the true players on.really makes it rough on opening doors coming from this environment.total honesty is the only way to go and that is becoming a rare commodity in todays world.you did the right thing coach

Put yourself in the college coach's shoes for a minute, gentlemen...would YOU want to know that a player that you're spending your valuable time recruiting neglected an important part of being a good ballplayer (lifting/plyos)? Would YOU want to have the coach tell you the truth...or candy-coat it for the sake of a kid's feelings?
Those of you that question the ethics of Coach B25 have to remember that all of us in the coaching profession have "non-mandatory" workouts that are optional on the surface, but hint of a "need" to attend. You didn't have those as a kid in the high school programs that you played in? If not, I'm guessing you lost a lot.
The fact is, off season work is ALWAYS optional...you can't really make a kid work on his game when he isn't officially ON your team yet. However, if you have a competitive program that is a championship contender on an annual basis, you also need players to give more of themselves than the team down the street...ESPECIALLY if that kid has collegiate dreams.
Every kid is not wired the same way; those that are willing to go above and beyond the work ethic of the average high school kid MAY get a chance at the next level....while those that aren't willing to work that hard must resign themselves to the fact that their career will end in high school. Nothing wrong with either goal...but one takes a heck of a lot more work and commitment than the other.

c knight,
I don't remember anyone questioning "ethics" - maybe you can point it out

the non-attaboy view was simply -
"there's more than one way to skin a cat"

btw, you still have the situation where the player feels he got "hosed",
will have an attutude, and is now less valuable to you -
so ya prolly should sit him right?



.

I will also agree that honesty is the best policy, and nothing said here convinced me otherwise.

I am not a hs coach, but have coached hs boy's legion, and I felt it was properly handled. But I AM having "some" second thoughts.

Still backing CoachB25, I think there could be other ethical, honest solutions.

Bee seems to be trying to, for lack of a better word, "bait" someone into addressing if some "issues" negatively affecting the player, team and coach could have been averted if the proverbial cat was "skinned another way". I guess I'll take the bait because from my experience it is something that would have to be dealt with sooner or later.

I've had a couple psychology classes, but sure didn't ace them. I do understand hindsite is 20/20, but there are a few things that just make me uncomfortable in that situation and I beleive TPM nailed what's bothering me.

As a coach my focus is 1rst on my individual players/team, and my "continuing program". The situation described in this topic "unfairly disrupts" that focus, and as CoachB25 had stated "he was put on the spot"
(by a college coach with no connection or commitment to his hs program - *my comment).

I'm trying the best I can to convey something - discomfort, apprehension, concern; Not sure if I have the right word, but something just doesn't feel right about driving a wedge between me & my guy(s) that I did not want nor intend to be there.

anyway, an interesting situation, I'd rather be writing about it than in the middle of it.


thanks for the forum to post



edited for spelling & clarity

Bee-
The ethics come in when you start talking about the following:
another way to be truthful could'a been -
"coach, when this guy gets into a "supervised" college strength & conditioning program - the sky's the limit for him"

Fact is, if the kid won't work hard now, odds are he probably won't for this coach either. In our program, the kid gets many, many opportunities to show his dedication to the program...and I evaluate his work ethic accordingly. To hint that the "sky's the limit" for a kid that has never proven to CARE where the sky even IS is probably a bit questionable.
I understand what you're saying, Bee - you think a coach should try to be more judicious...and that makes sense. However, when it is you and the coach and he's asking you to be honest, I don't think any good coach would "leave out" some key info...and if the kid works hard, he wouldn't HAVE to, would he?

P.S. No, I DON'T sit him from playing...I sit him DOWN and explain my reasoning and hope he'll prove me wrong. He'll have more setbacks than this if he wants to play college ball - good time for a young man to grow up and figure things out. This should be a wakeup call...if it isn't, not sure WHAT that says...

Coach Knight

Great post

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Knight:
...Fact is, if the kid won't work hard now, odds are he probably won't for this coach either...

There is really no evidence of this. Very common for kids to "grow up" on their own in their own time frame......not on your time frame.

judicious, yup - (I like that word)

quote:

by cKnight: Fact is, if the kid won't work hard now, odds are he probably won't for this coach either.

actually you drew exactly the wrong conclusion - as b25 BELIEVES he can play at the next level

my read was based on info available & a wee bit of speculation

starter
key player
in sucessfull/competitive program
under a successful/knowlegable coach
a coach who ALREADY believed in this guy enough to "promote" him to next level guys
and btw there was interest by next those level guys - college

that doesn't read like a slacker who needs knocked down a peg

reads like a raw guy with some upside


so, yes judicious



I rest my case



.

coachb
1. Sound like you are a rare coach who promotes his kids. That is wonderful. Our high school coach was very passive, and not proactive at all. in spite of this, all of last years seniors who wanted to are playing college ball, thanks to very proactive parents and players
2. This is a tough call and obviously upset you so you know the kid is a good player and should be at the next level
3. The concern I seee here is if workouts are volunary, as they are in all off season conditioning, most kids know they need to be there to compete, so why wouldnt this kid or at least know ahead of time that it wasnt what was expected of him. if he didnt think it made a difference then the reasonable thing would have been to not comment on this. seems a little unfair, to penalize a kid for not working out if he is not truly expected to. there are diplomatic ways to handle this. seems like volunatry should be volunarty, mandatory mandatory, and the player should know what is expected of him. In my sons school, voluntary workouts were almost mandatory because of the level of competiiton between the boys, and none would let the others get ahead of them by missing them. thats paying off for the college players now

coach knight and jinxn - great posts. theres a huge difference between a good high school player and a college player. people that have been around know what it takes to play on the college level. its hard. just because a kid can start for a high school team does not mean he has the toughness and dedication to play on the college level. its tough to play in our program. we work hard in the offseason - very hard, we expect our kids to be good students, we expect our kids to perform and win - and we do win - but that does not make them potential college players. if you've never been there you'll never understand.

Linear-
I understand what you are saying...but isn't part of a coach's job to help young kids be better MEN as part of their program, and not just better players? I agree that the kid will "grow up" someday (or at least you hope so)...but any of us that have played a little ball can probably attribute much of that maturation process to great coaches we have had that have "helped" nurture the process along.
Bee-
I'm not saying he CAN'T...the point from me wasn't that he COULDN'T play at the collegiate level, but that he isn't the type of player that all coaches would want and that it is vital for B25 to be honest about that. Many players are talented enough to play at the next level...but many coaches want certain TYPES of players, not just those that are talented (ala T.O.!).
You seem to be quite knowledgeable about the game, so thank you for this discussion. It made me think about how I handle these situations. I haven't changed my view...but it gave me a new perspective.

quote:

by cKnight: he isn't the type of player that all coaches would want and that it is vital for B25 to be honest about that

I agree with the honesty part!
but, colleges want guys who can play, if they want guys that look like linebackers they can call the football coach


so a "judicious" honest reply could be

"coach, the guy REALLY SUCKS in the weight room, but "DOES get after it on the field and CAN play" - get over to one of our games and watch him before you write him off - & btw, your conference rival is his #2 choice - so if you're quick to write him off you may still get to see him play . . . but . . AGAINST YOU"

look -
if ya TRULY BELIEVE in your guys ya stand up for them & NEVER back down
the college coach should RESPECT that

if it means telling a college coach he's wrong - so be it - he SHOULD appreciate the HONESTY, right?


JMO


.

i talk to college coaches all the time about our kids. they want to know their work ethic - including the weightroom, etc. honesty is saying "hes a good player, but he doesnt do what he's suppose to do in the off season, etc." the college coach makes the final decision. coachb didnt make the decision - he just told the school what the kid is doing. some schools will take a chance in hopes they will growup and mature and many wont. thats where the argument here has went astray - we - high school coaches - dont tell colleges who to sign, we just give them the information THEY ask for - which like said includes how hard does the kid work and how dedicated is he.ive never not had a college coach ask that question. they dont ask about ability on the field - they can see that.

quote:

by raider: we just give them the information THEY ask for

it's sad & must be frustrating that your opinions, evaluations, experience, knowledge of the game AND your close relationship with your players/students count for NOTHING - a valuable resource wasted - but you seem comfortable with it

you could probably remove yourself from the communication loop & forward college inquiries directly to the weight room monitor

good luck

edit/added:

got this from a respected hs coach: (B25)

"players are being drafted from our state and they aren't even on the radar of D-1 Schools in our state and while other highly rated players are headed to other states to play because they are snubbed in our state. JMHO"

hmmmm, I just re-checked some pro questionairs - -
NO WEIGHT ROOM QUESTIONS

raiders, perhaps some hs coaches should get the "balls" to SPEAK UP to colleges coaches - instead of being a "yes" man & giving them just what THEY ask for, like you said above


thanks
JMO


.

I sure hope that shortstop who is lights out at 17 comes to play for me when he was turned down by another college because some high school egomaniac wanted him in the weight room while the 17 year old wanted to be 17.

Coach was simply asked if the kid was coming to plyos and getting after it in the weight room. He gave the coach the best answer he could. It's not like he just told him out of the blue that the kid wasn't doing the work.

The weight room is a joke at our HS. Filled with football players and wrestlers. Everyone is bench pressing and trying to impress each other with no adult supervision.
The real baseball players are all a few miles down the road at an indoor baseball facility. Here they play long toss, do LIGHT weights, run, throw BP to each other and hit the cages.
I sure hope our HS coach is finding out all the facts before he passes judgment on a kid. Maybe in the future the coach should preface his comment with "I can only tell you what I see on school property...."
Oh, wait a minute! Our coach doesn't do anything to help anyone get to the next level, so I don't need to worry!

CoachB25 - your kids are lucky to have you in their corner. Its unfortunate you've been assaulted here just because you voiced your concerns. Remember, this is a FORUM with many viewpoints. Your honesty is admirable and your conscious tells me you want whats best for your kids. Continued good luck to you and the boys you coach.

last post. i email 100s of colleges every year for the benefit of my seniors. i list their stats and other positives in these - i do this for every senior regardless of ability, playing time, etc.. just today i have set up 2 college visits for a couple of seniors.
when asked i answer honestly. and you will be asked. i also try to sell the positives in all conversations.
i have college coaches come in to speak to our guys every winter. i have pro scouts come in and talk to our kids. we have the east coast cross checker with a pro club that lives in our community. he comes and talks to our kids regularly. we have our kids in college come back constantly and they talk to the kids.
they are not ignorant to what is expected.

raider, I commend you and others for the extra effort helping your players

btw, hs stats are basicly meaninless -
didn't see a spot for them on pro questionairs either

oh yea, they actually LOOK AT PLAYERS

it IS amazing that some hs coaches will argue points like this with ME on a message board till the cows come home, yet will NOT tell a college coach to dispense with the BS plyo questions - and get to the "meat & potatoes" of an experienced hs coaches evaluation of a player


jmo

the thread seems to have taken a slightly different direction - yet interesting

for the record I DO SUPPORT coaches who help their players and am just offering a view from another perspective - maybe pising some off
but they are honest questions with NO ill will intended

as an FYI, I discussed this subject on the phone at lunch with 2 summer program coaches - 1 who's roster has a "national" flavor, & the other a "local" flavor

BOTH were consistant that college inquiries asked of them
"THEIR detailed eval of tools, game skills and potential"

so I'm to understand hs coaches are regarded differently?



.

Bee...have not made much comment because I feel like you are just on here stirring the pot and that is all fun and games. I guess everyone needs a role in life. I mean really, how can anyone disagree with you.

Maybe you are a high school coach that has contact with college coaches looking for players, but I doubt that because of the comments that you make. Such as, I have not seen a spot on a questionaire for hs stats.....I am looking at several questionaires right now. They all have spots for hs stats. They also ask to rate players on things other than athletic ability such as...... 'discipline, agressiveness, mental toughness, competitiveness, and potential as a Division I college baseball player'......and that is a direct quote from a D1 questionaire.

I only post this in case some other people who are not coaches and actually want to know what college coaches are asking when they call about their sons.

quote:

Originally posted by d8:
Bee...have not made much comment because I feel like you are just on here stirring the pot and that is all fun and games. I guess everyone needs a role in life. I mean really, how can anyone disagree with you.

I disagree with him all the time. Its easy.

Bee stirs up alot of different approaches IMO.

I think that is good - makes me - (and others I hope) - think.

Plus - in 4 years he has never said I was related to Lucifer. Regardless of our disagreements.

I like that. LOL

He floats like a butterly and stings like a - well you know.

thanks for your response d8

no - I'm not a hs coach, just a college parent & fan of the game as my profile notes

it's an iteresting topic & I'm asking questions that many hs parents "won't" ask for fear of the consequences - is that bad?
I thought that's what these forums was for?

the questions were respectful & I didn't call anyone names, question their heritage, sanity or anything like that -

I am questioning the logic of some accepted practices tho

I (and others) find some of the responses very educational and interesting
others simply amazing, as if "how dare you question me" -

like I said, there was no intent to offend - just pose legit questions from a non-coaches perspective, and maybe a coach or two will try to see things from another view-point at times


btw, were those pro or college questionairs?


edit/added later:

also - would be interested in your take on why apparently the college approach with hs coaches HERE is -
"just answer my questions please"

yet with summer coaches it's
"I trust your eval, can the guy play for me?"



ps- It's, you're cracking me up
with some recent events I needed the smile, thanks
also re the quote - Foreman was on Fox this AM and they noted Ali is not long with us - what a guy

pps - It's, that I've not diss'd you is purely intentional -
under the goal post at Meadowlands is NOT my cup o sweet tea

.

Deleted by me. I let my nature get the best of me. Although I really love to ... with my good buddy.

I will make it over to his establishment one of the days. (and real soon!)

Go ahead, open it.

There may be some courage in it.

Linear

are you looking in the mirror--you sure sound like others before you--rshard etc

Is Sybil your middle name ???

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:
Go ahead, open it.

There may be some courage in it.

I've given you an open invatation every way possible and yet, you haven't done anything about it. As I have stated a hundred times, you know where I am. HELL pm me and I'll be there.

Darrell Butler

Be cool Darrell--dont go to his level--let me--I have done it before

Is his pizza burning????

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Be cool Darrell--dont go to his level--let me--I have done it before

Is his pizza burning????

TR, you are Genuine! I've talked to you and you are the real deal. You don't conceal yourself. You try to help. You have offered me help even though you don't know me. On the other hand, Richard is a different animal. JMHO!