I have no issue with merit-based aid. In fact, I appreciate learning of institutions that provide for those individuals who have worked hard and achieved high levels of success in the classroom. However, JPontiac's original post was something I was unfamiliar with. I had never heard of a school giving more merit-based aid just because another school gave a particular offer.
I am not biased towards the northeast at all. In fact, I find myself scoffing at the ways of the "elitist" schools very often. But the undeniable fact is that many of the best schools in the country are in the northeast. I believe there are several reasons why this is true. The northeast schools are some of the oldest in the country and have been building a reputation longer. There is also a higher population per square mile in the northeast than anywhere else in the country, causing an influx in the amount of schools that exist.
I have always been under the assumption that the tougher the school, the less opportunity is available for help. For example, I assume that at my school (a solid state school, not a nationally renowned school by any means but certainly respectable) I would be getting a higher monetary offer than at an Ivy League school or another school at that academic level (Rhodes would be a great example). Same concept as a 90 mph lefty would probably get a higher scholarship offer from a lower level Division I school than they would at an SEC school. I just didn't expect to hear of a common practice being that school admissions compete with each other monetarily for student enrollment.
I'm not downplaying the significance or reputation of any school involved, and I certainly don't have a geographic bias. It was just something I was unaware of. I wasn't a GREAT student in high school (3.4 GPA, 1990/2400 SAT), so I didn't experience this sort of thing. Baseball recruiting is what I am more familiar with.
The admissions competition that I'm now just learning about speaks volumes about the student as an individual, IMO.
JH,
You do realize you totally sidestepped the issue and didn't even attempt to defend your previous position, don't you?
If you recall, I challenged your assumption that giving merit aid would hurt a school's academic reputation and explained why I don't think it would.
Nothing in your long answer addresses that point.
You do realize you totally sidestepped the issue and didn't even attempt to defend your previous position, don't you?
If you recall, I challenged your assumption that giving merit aid would hurt a school's academic reputation and explained why I don't think it would.
Nothing in your long answer addresses that point.
My assumption was not a generalization. I apologize if it seemed that way. My assumption was largely based on the fact that a lot of the ranking of schools is put on admissions exclusivity. Thus, when comparing two schools to each other specifically, the assumption was that the school that is more stringent with their offer package is the better school in the public eye.
I am a believer that an education is what you make of it. But perception is very important in this aspect, and this of course is put under consideration when choosing a school. My assumption might have been very off-base and incorrect, but it was an assumption based on my prior observations.
I am a believer that an education is what you make of it. But perception is very important in this aspect, and this of course is put under consideration when choosing a school. My assumption might have been very off-base and incorrect, but it was an assumption based on my prior observations.
quote:I am a believer that an education is what you make of it.
I absolutely agree. What you get out of school, and sports, too, for that matter, often depends more on what you put into it than where you go.
Hi Swampboy, and all,
I don't think JH needed to defend a position here,
He's just stating a point of view, as a current college student.
Both of you are actually offering the "point-counterpoint" discussion that takes place every day in higher ed, at enrollment management conferences, among trustees and admissions deans. There is value to both points of view. How to best allocate the scarce resources. Two schools of thought:
A) Use a good portion of our aid money to reward top students and encourage them to come to our college, so that we can attract the best and the brightest. They have worked hard in HS and deserve this reward, and we would welcome them on our campus. When I worked in college admissions, this was our approach; we leveraged our limited aid dollars wisely; the calculations and financial aid matrix we used was fairly sophisticated and took into account GPA, course rigor, SATs, rank in class, extracurrics, and demonstrated interested in the college, as well as family finances.
In contrast, the no merit aid approach is,
B) No, lets use our money only where the need is greatest. Our school already attracts and retains the best of the best, so we don't need to offer merit money. Our mission is to provide access for lower income families.
(By the way, back to JH's point about using money to get top students might degrade the academic rep of a school, some in the field would look down there noses at us 'merit aid ' schools and say we were "buying the class"; which in some respects was true!)
Of course in the economic climate we are in today, position B is tougher and tougher to sustain. Someone else in this thread touched on that. If no merit aid is offered at the elite selective college, and families of modest or middle classs means are looking at 'full pay' here vs 'merit aid' there, more families will be chosing the place with the merit aid. Those still able to enroll at very expensive full pay no merit aid colleges will be heavily tilted toward the economic elite, as well as the fairly low income families getting heavy need based aid. In the extreme, this 'bi-modal' setting can lead to a social environment that is tough for the kids, the fairly low income kids and the kids with the BMWs and trips to Europe for the summer, and very few regular middle class kids in between.
Sorry, I went off on a tangent, but it is pretty interesting and important stuff in the world of higher ed......
So the experience of getting 'counter offers' in terms of merit based aid is in fact become more common place and all families should certainly know they can try! It never hurts to ask, respectfully, when the time is right. "Johnny/Jane would really love to come to your school, but the gap is just too great. At school X and Y, our out of pocket is only $***X. Is there any review process/ can you reconsider our needs and find a way to increase your support so that Jonny can enroll here?"
This is a good topic to talk about here because many families are somewhat in the dark about this, and having all points of view shared is very valuable.
Happy Labor Day everyone!
I don't think JH needed to defend a position here,
Both of you are actually offering the "point-counterpoint" discussion that takes place every day in higher ed, at enrollment management conferences, among trustees and admissions deans. There is value to both points of view. How to best allocate the scarce resources. Two schools of thought:
A) Use a good portion of our aid money to reward top students and encourage them to come to our college, so that we can attract the best and the brightest. They have worked hard in HS and deserve this reward, and we would welcome them on our campus. When I worked in college admissions, this was our approach; we leveraged our limited aid dollars wisely; the calculations and financial aid matrix we used was fairly sophisticated and took into account GPA, course rigor, SATs, rank in class, extracurrics, and demonstrated interested in the college, as well as family finances.
In contrast, the no merit aid approach is,
B) No, lets use our money only where the need is greatest. Our school already attracts and retains the best of the best, so we don't need to offer merit money. Our mission is to provide access for lower income families.
(By the way, back to JH's point about using money to get top students might degrade the academic rep of a school, some in the field would look down there noses at us 'merit aid ' schools and say we were "buying the class"; which in some respects was true!)
Of course in the economic climate we are in today, position B is tougher and tougher to sustain. Someone else in this thread touched on that. If no merit aid is offered at the elite selective college, and families of modest or middle classs means are looking at 'full pay' here vs 'merit aid' there, more families will be chosing the place with the merit aid. Those still able to enroll at very expensive full pay no merit aid colleges will be heavily tilted toward the economic elite, as well as the fairly low income families getting heavy need based aid. In the extreme, this 'bi-modal' setting can lead to a social environment that is tough for the kids, the fairly low income kids and the kids with the BMWs and trips to Europe for the summer, and very few regular middle class kids in between.
Sorry, I went off on a tangent, but it is pretty interesting and important stuff in the world of higher ed......
So the experience of getting 'counter offers' in terms of merit based aid is in fact become more common place and all families should certainly know they can try! It never hurts to ask, respectfully, when the time is right. "Johnny/Jane would really love to come to your school, but the gap is just too great. At school X and Y, our out of pocket is only $***X. Is there any review process/ can you reconsider our needs and find a way to increase your support so that Jonny can enroll here?"
This is a good topic to talk about here because many families are somewhat in the dark about this, and having all points of view shared is very valuable.
Happy Labor Day everyone!
Very insightful post BaseballmomandCEP. Thanks for sharing.
Being a Midwesterner, I take exception to this: But the undeniable fact is that many of the best schools in the country are in the northeast. There are many "best schools" in the Midwest. There are many "best schools" in the South, and there are many "best schools" in the West.
Certainly, at one time (like in the infancy of our country) your statement was true. However, I don't believe that you can say that anymore. Many of the top schools are small and are considered "regional" schools. It could be that we just didn't know about them.
When my daughter was deciding between two very excellent D3 colleges, the coaches of one school suggested to us more than once to tell admissions what the other school offered her. We did, they offered her more money, and yes, there she went. It happens.
Certainly, at one time (like in the infancy of our country) your statement was true. However, I don't believe that you can say that anymore. Many of the top schools are small and are considered "regional" schools. It could be that we just didn't know about them.
When my daughter was deciding between two very excellent D3 colleges, the coaches of one school suggested to us more than once to tell admissions what the other school offered her. We did, they offered her more money, and yes, there she went. It happens.
BaeballmomandCEP,
I thank you for endorsing my point of view by acknowledging that the merit aid schools buy some of the best students.
Of course they do. That's why I challenged JH's assumption that a school would hurt its academic reputation by offering merit aid.
It might hurt its social standing, but it can only help its academic standing.
The reason certain schools choose not to offer merit aid has nothing to do with protecting academic quality. The real reason is that these schools are intended to be refuges for children of privilege. They can feel good about themselves by offering some need-based aid to get some diversity, but they know their system squeezes out all but the most determined members of the middle class. A merit-based aid system would change the mix and culture of the student body as the ambitious children of upwardly striving working class and immigrant families crowded out the legacy kids and others who can afford to pay the undiscounted rate. It's about class, not merit.
My oldest son was a national merit scholar, and he saw no reason we should pay our not insignificant expected family contribution to a school that offered no merit aid when there were plenty of suitable schools that were willing to waive most or all their tuition to bring him on campus.
And that's ok. Everyone ended up happy. The school he went to got a top student. He found a school that was a great fit. The need-only school got to give his slot to some preppie they really wanted, and the preppie got to keep believing he's the best and the brightest.
I thank you for endorsing my point of view by acknowledging that the merit aid schools buy some of the best students.
Of course they do. That's why I challenged JH's assumption that a school would hurt its academic reputation by offering merit aid.
It might hurt its social standing, but it can only help its academic standing.
The reason certain schools choose not to offer merit aid has nothing to do with protecting academic quality. The real reason is that these schools are intended to be refuges for children of privilege. They can feel good about themselves by offering some need-based aid to get some diversity, but they know their system squeezes out all but the most determined members of the middle class. A merit-based aid system would change the mix and culture of the student body as the ambitious children of upwardly striving working class and immigrant families crowded out the legacy kids and others who can afford to pay the undiscounted rate. It's about class, not merit.
My oldest son was a national merit scholar, and he saw no reason we should pay our not insignificant expected family contribution to a school that offered no merit aid when there were plenty of suitable schools that were willing to waive most or all their tuition to bring him on campus.
And that's ok. Everyone ended up happy. The school he went to got a top student. He found a school that was a great fit. The need-only school got to give his slot to some preppie they really wanted, and the preppie got to keep believing he's the best and the brightest.
Interesting perspective on needs-based aid, Swampboy. I must say it sounds a little jaded on the first read but it does make sense. All of the schools that I know of that offer only needs-based aid have not been at all transformed. Maybe a topic for another forum.
Swampboy: Like! button
quote:Originally posted by smithers505:
we're debating whether it'd be better for 2012 (who, frankly, doesn't stand a chance of getting drafted unless he grows three inches) to choose a D3 school and continue his playing career, or just play one more summer and use his academic credentials to attend somewhere like vanderbilt or duke. he cried tonight when he thought of not playing anymore--i'm honestly torn. if anybody wants to know, he missed his junior season with tendinitis, and he's been injured before; when healthy, he's a low-80s LHP who also happened to score a 35 on ACT
Getting back to the subject. My son had the same thoughts at the start of his sr. year along with about the same stats as your son, but was a catcher now turned pitcher. He is now entering his soph. year playing ball for for a good academic school here in the north east. All he talked about this past summer was his love of playing college baseball and getting a good education at the same time. He was a recruited D-1 player but did not want the commitment that a D-1 baseball program requires, so he chose the D-3 path and is loving life.There are plenty of schools that offer great educations so I would not get hung up the name of a school but the decision to not play ball in college may become his biggest regret.
I don't know if this post will help or not. But I figure it can't hurt. When I was in hs I was very good at baseball. I was very good at football. But I loved football and only liked baseball. So my goal was to play college football and then star in the NFL. I was limited in my options coming out of hs not because of a lack of offers. I had several to go and play both football and baseball. I was limited because I didn't take care of business in the class room. This is not an issue for your son though. So my options were JUCO football or baseball or go to work.
I couldn't get in the schools that offered me and decided I didn't want to go to a JUCO to play football. So I went to work. I didn't mind the job I had. What I did mind was waking up at night wondering. Wondering if I could have. Should have. Would have. It was driving me crazy. I had to know. And I didn't want to be 35 like so many people I knew and have that same old story. "If I had _____________." "I would have but ___________." "I should have but____________." I wanted to know.
So I saved my money and walked on to that JUCO that offered me the year before. I wanted to know the answer to those questions and I wanted to be able to live with myself not just now but for the rest of my life. I didn't want to be one of those guys with that same old story. I wanted to be able to say I did.
So now when I look in the mirror I know the answer to that question. And I am so glad that I did answer it when I had the opportunity to answer it.
There are many things I can still go back and do I have never done. But you can never go back and answer that question "could I have" "should I have" "would I have" if you pass on this opportunity you have in front of you. You better know for sure you can look in the mirror when its too late and be able to live with it. If not you better get off your butt and go play college baseball.
This is just my opinion. But no one is going to have to look in that mirror and answer these questions but you. So in reality your the only one that truly matters in this. Good luck
I couldn't get in the schools that offered me and decided I didn't want to go to a JUCO to play football. So I went to work. I didn't mind the job I had. What I did mind was waking up at night wondering. Wondering if I could have. Should have. Would have. It was driving me crazy. I had to know. And I didn't want to be 35 like so many people I knew and have that same old story. "If I had _____________." "I would have but ___________." "I should have but____________." I wanted to know.
So I saved my money and walked on to that JUCO that offered me the year before. I wanted to know the answer to those questions and I wanted to be able to live with myself not just now but for the rest of my life. I didn't want to be one of those guys with that same old story. I wanted to be able to say I did.
So now when I look in the mirror I know the answer to that question. And I am so glad that I did answer it when I had the opportunity to answer it.
There are many things I can still go back and do I have never done. But you can never go back and answer that question "could I have" "should I have" "would I have" if you pass on this opportunity you have in front of you. You better know for sure you can look in the mirror when its too late and be able to live with it. If not you better get off your butt and go play college baseball.
This is just my opinion. But no one is going to have to look in that mirror and answer these questions but you. So in reality your the only one that truly matters in this. Good luck
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Ooh! I'm hitting the like button on this one, too!
Ooh! I'm hitting the like button on this one, too!
Where has the OP gone?
Coach May that is absolutely a great story.
I had a similar experience, but the class room wasn't the issue, I didn't take care of business pushing away from the dinner table soon enough (still have that problem, go figure!)
I can say though that I was the fastest 238 lb. 2B in the State of Michigan my senior year. I may have been the only 238 lb. 2B, but what the heck, it still sounds good (to me) when I tell it to people who ask about my baseball skills. I should've continued playing catcher, but the coach got tired of seeing the ball spin in the dirt at least 6 feet in front of second on rainbow throw downs.
So coach made me a 2B. The throw was a lot shorter and I made up for my size with great hands.
I always say my son got all of his athletic abilities from his mother, except for inheriting my great hands.
I digress - I did almost try out for the baseball team when I transferred my junior year to a small Iowa NAIA school, but when I went to the first meeting, I looked around the room at guys that had been playing all summer and said to myself - are you crazy? Back to dominating as Pitcher in slow pitch softball - I finally found my calling for that rainbow arc.
I don't regret much - other than I should have had better nutritional standards, more for my healths sake than for sports. I agree with Coach May, you just need to be sure and know if you can live with your decision and not regret it years later. It all fades over time as other things become more important.
I had a similar experience, but the class room wasn't the issue, I didn't take care of business pushing away from the dinner table soon enough (still have that problem, go figure!)
I can say though that I was the fastest 238 lb. 2B in the State of Michigan my senior year. I may have been the only 238 lb. 2B, but what the heck, it still sounds good (to me) when I tell it to people who ask about my baseball skills. I should've continued playing catcher, but the coach got tired of seeing the ball spin in the dirt at least 6 feet in front of second on rainbow throw downs.
So coach made me a 2B. The throw was a lot shorter and I made up for my size with great hands.
I always say my son got all of his athletic abilities from his mother, except for inheriting my great hands.
I digress - I did almost try out for the baseball team when I transferred my junior year to a small Iowa NAIA school, but when I went to the first meeting, I looked around the room at guys that had been playing all summer and said to myself - are you crazy? Back to dominating as Pitcher in slow pitch softball - I finally found my calling for that rainbow arc.
I don't regret much - other than I should have had better nutritional standards, more for my healths sake than for sports. I agree with Coach May, you just need to be sure and know if you can live with your decision and not regret it years later. It all fades over time as other things become more important.
@YoungGunDad, right here! just wanted to observe for a while, but i watched, with a more than slight feeling of confusion, the thread evolve into a discussion on financial aid! 
my son just got a call from the coach at Rochester, who apparently is very interested... he'll be visiting in October. he'll be hearing from Chicago and Denison soon as well. a post-graduate year (he just turned 17 last week) could be another option, as he's talked to quite a few prep school coaches about joining their teams next year, and then hopefully moving on to an Ivy/NESCAC school
my son just got a call from the coach at Rochester, who apparently is very interested... he'll be visiting in October. he'll be hearing from Chicago and Denison soon as well. a post-graduate year (he just turned 17 last week) could be another option, as he's talked to quite a few prep school coaches about joining their teams next year, and then hopefully moving on to an Ivy/NESCAC school
Dear Smithers:
My son had the pleasure of playing a couple games at the Headfirst Camp during summer of 2010 that were coached by the head coach from Denison. He thought he was just outstanding. I saw his style and demeanor as well, and really thought he seemed like he would be a great coach to play for, someone who would really inspire to take your effort to the next level. He was super upbeat, vocal and just seemed like a "player's coach." Good academic school, pretty successful team as well.
My son had the pleasure of playing a couple games at the Headfirst Camp during summer of 2010 that were coached by the head coach from Denison. He thought he was just outstanding. I saw his style and demeanor as well, and really thought he seemed like he would be a great coach to play for, someone who would really inspire to take your effort to the next level. He was super upbeat, vocal and just seemed like a "player's coach." Good academic school, pretty successful team as well.
http://www.tufts.edu/home/acad...duate/majors_minors/
They could use some southpaws.
http://www.gotuftsjumbos.com/s...s/bsb/2010-11/roster
They could use some southpaws.
http://www.gotuftsjumbos.com/s...s/bsb/2010-11/roster
quote:Originally posted by J23:
Your son has his entire life left for work.....I say...if you can play....play while you can.....work will be there waiting for you when your done.
I don't know whether I agree with this quote or not.
Sure, you do have the rest of your life to work....but earning a degree from a top ranked university definitely has it's advantages too.
Most of the larger well known academic schools have on campus recruiters, and with the job market these dsys it sure would help having that assistance.
Think about the contacts he would have once graduating from a great school like Duke, Vanderbilt, etc...
I also believe that Coach May has pointed out in past forum posts, that at D-1 schools there is the opportunity to play club baseball.
Rochester. Solid school, solid baseball. Definitely don't take that likely and with a 35 ACT, your son is in great shape to get some serious scholarship money from UR.