Throwing 90

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
With a certain amount of accuracy, you can watch a young pitcher and predict his future velocity. You just see all the signs and bank on thousands that you saw come before him and project. Of course injuries can get in the way and you never know how dedicated and hard working the young pitcher is, but it's not that hard to predict when the right things are present.

Lighting up the radar gun can create lots of interest, but young pitchers need to understand that there are lots of good scouts and recruiters out there who can see something special without reading a radar gun.

The biggest problem is when a young pitcher is trying so hard, he muscles up, tightens up and throws at a lower velocity. He actually gets the opposite results. It's not just throwing at a good velocity... It's about throwing good velocity without muscling up. The guy throwing 90 with everything he has is not as interesting as the guy throwing 86-87 loose and easy.

Although you have said this before in other topics over the years, this is probably the most important thing that those who have young pitchers should always remember.

As to rz's post, I somewhat have to agree with some things he said. For example, in HS, one of the players on son's team threw way harder than son, but on the mound he just couldn't pitch. Depending upon the team we were playing, they put him in sometimes as a closer so he could throw down the middle, no one could touch it. he could throw hard, but he couldn't pitch.

I think that you don't see many position players who throw 90+ because they become converted pitchers. Interesting, one might get a scholarship as a postition player with a strong arm but wind up a pitcher and same thing goes for pro ball as well.

As far as what PG posted about muscling up, I saw that happen to a really good pitcher, who didn't hit 90 but was very accurate. Draft year he threw to the gun for a better draft position, and he also threw away his start. It does happen. Never tell your player to light up the gun on purpose so someone will notice you. The term loose arm is highly desirable in scouting.

As far as lefties with lower velocity, it's my understanding for top D1 coaches that a lefty not afraid to throw his FB and accurate is much more desirable than one who lives off the off speed. Of course those that show the ability to improve (project) their velo and coachable get much consideration.
Good stuff in this topic.

quote:

Originally posted by nc42dad:

MLB teams focus on throwing mechanics and repeating them corectly over and over. I have not seen that same kind of emphasis anywhere else. Just throwing long toss & not throwing correctly is futile.

In college my player went through painful (tough outings and days found himself in the doghouse with pitching coach) adjustments to learn to repeat the delivery over and over and over and over. He's also get in trouble trying to sneak in a pitch not allowed.

My son has been working with a guy who was a major league pitcher for a couple of years until an injury ended his career. He has stressed the difference between 'pitching' and velocity. Velocity might get you noticed, but more important is pitching with command & control, doing your job and getting guys out.

I love his story about his first experience when he was called up to the majors. He was sitting in the bullpen watching another pitcher on the mound who had also just been called up. This guy was hitting 98 on the radar, and was getting lit up by the batters. He said balls were bouncing off every wall. As he watched, he turned to another pitcher and said "I don't think I'm going to be here very long"! Velocity might get you to the majors, but when you get there, you'd better have more than that.

So, my son continues to learn and work hard and is developing into an effective control pitcher who cruises in the mid to upper 80's.

quote:

Originally posted by hsplayer:
What percentage of High School Pitchers reach 90?

very few...a very fortunate few....of course I'm only basing my opinion on the thousands of HS innings and literally thousands of HS pitchers I've seen over 3 or 4 states in the past 20 years or so......

The "crafty lefty" moniker was tagged on Bum, Jr. until about his junior season. It was always one of those phrases that made me cringe.

One thing on the topic of throwing 90. It amazes me that whenever higher radar speeds are mentioned the discussion inevitably turns to "speed versus control". IMHO the two concepts are not mutually exclusive; in fact, I think those who achieve 90+ have far better control, on average, because to consistently pitch at that level a (pitcher) will have undoubtedly refined his mechanics, timing and delivery to optimize velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:

Don’t know that I’ve ever heard a RHP called a Crafty Righty, why is that?

Because we have the term, junkballer, for that!

"IMHO, a very overstated, many times exaggerated number that only confuses many young pitchers on what is important about the position."

Believe me, I appreciate that there is an art to pitching. I preach that myself.

But there's no escaping the fact that velocity is important. Allan Simpson had a pretty solid article on PGCrosschecker.com recently, statistically showing that power pitchers tend to be the top pitchers in MLB year after year. Your Moyer, Maddux and Glavine types are the exception, not the rule.

There's also no escaping the fact that, to some extent, it's luck of the draw as far as where your ceiling is. You can condition yourself and hone your mechanics to reach your ceiling, but each of us has a ceiling. So in that sense, it is often futile and frustrating to focus overly much on MPH, because it may well be that you'll just never get to the level you dream of no matter what you do.

Even high MPH guys have to learn to pitch, because with talent they will eventually rise to a level where the batters can handle MPH alone. The Peter Principle applies in baseball as in other walks of life.

A low MPH ceiling guy has to learn the art of pitching earlier, just to survive cuts in HS, much less to advance. But in all likelihood, he can be perfect in every way, if genetically his ceiling is at 82 MPH, he can enjoy baseball a good long while but not as long as the high MPH guy.

What I'm saying is, I have no issue with people who want to emphasize the art of pitching. It should be taught and players need to learn it, so that whatever their ceiling is, they can be their very best.

But sometimes this commentary starts to sound like sour grapes from the parents of the kid who throws 78. You know, the types who sit in the stands and watch the 90+ guy and kid themselves that "he ain't all that" and say things like "yeah, but he's just a thrower, not a pitcher."

You may as well gripe that it's not fair that the NBA looks for guys who are unusually tall, or that they overlook the great player who's only 5'11".

NEOBB, the thing about the 98 MPH guy you mentioned is this: He can ease off his fastball to work on movement and spot control, and he'll still be throwing 94. If he learns that, he can stick in the pros. If the guy who throws 89 does that, he drops to 85. He can have a great HS experience and be solid at the college level. That's nothing to sneeze at. But I would not expect him to be a pro prospect.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by nc42dad:

MLB teams focus on throwing mechanics and repeating them corectly over and over. I have not seen that same kind of emphasis anywhere else. Just throwing long toss & not throwing correctly is futile.

In college my player went through painful (tough outings and days found himself in the doghouse with pitching coach) adjustments to learn to repeat the delivery over and over and over and over. He's also get in trouble trying to sneak in a pitch not allowed.

Not sure I understand... so Clemson does focus on a throwing program? It would not surprise me. Our experience for high school anyway, is that most people really don't understand throwing mechanics. Lot's of drills, maybe long toss, but most of it is done incorrectly or doesn't work. But I am curious what you ran into.

I don't know about the sour grapes, but it does get tiresome hearing about players velocity. My HS son is a SS so it doesn't really bother me as a father but as a coach who tries to teach that game isn't all about power and velocity it does get old.

Really, if a HS pitcher(thrower) really throws 90+ (and the ones that really do dominate) don't you think they should dominate at the HS level.

Why don't we talk about the players who hit BP homers. We are basically talking about the same thing when a pitcher throws in a bullpen with no hitter,no pressure, no weather conditions, no one watching aren't we.

But to get back on point, if pitchers are worried about velocity I believe they are focused on the wrong thing.

The name of the game is to get people out.

Midlo dad,

IMO that was a very accurate and great post!

The link that OLDSLUGGER posted is very interesting. It shows average velocity of ML pitchers. A couple things are missing from those averages though. Many pitchers throw both 2-seam and 4 seam fastballs. Many also throw BP fastballs with a little sink to get out of 2-0, 3-1 counts. The 2-seamer in most cases will be a few MPH slower than the 4-seamer. It adds movement (sink, run or both) but typically the 4-seamer will read a higher velocity when a pitcher uses both pitches. The BP fastball used to get out of hitter counts is often much lower in velocity. Mike Boddicker made a living throwing 2-0, 3-1 BP fastballs with some sink around 80 mph or even lower. Get the ground ball on a 2-0, 3-1 count and you have a lot of success.

Mt point is… Guys like Chad Billingsley threw 96 while still in high school. His MLB average is 91-92. I’m pretty sure he still throws a lot of mid 90s because he has that kind of arm, but he has also learned to do what is necessary. 96 on a 3-1 count is not as good as 96 in most other counts. However, a lower velocity fastball that is kept low with some sink is a better pitch. There are a lot of things to think about rather than just velocity, but those who do have plus velocity do have more to work with. It’s easier for them to throw “slower” and add location and movement. It’s not likely the soft thrower will be able to add velocity in order to make a better pitch.

Bum, made a great point. Why do people think the guys with the best velocity can’t pitch. What do you call the guy who throws mid 90s in high school and can pitch? A First Rounder! What do you call the guy who throws mid 90s but still hasn’t become a good pitcher? A good draft pick! What do you call the guy who can really do it all, but throws mid 80s? A College pitcher.

Please someone tell me when they notice a low velocity guy become an early draft pick. People can think what they want, but those who make the decisions should be considered.

All that said, being a great pitcher at any level is really something special. It is possible to do that at almost any velocity. However, if someone wants to reach the top, disregarding velocity would be a big mistake. I can’t think of any reason why a pitcher can’t become a better pitcher while at the same time improve his velocity. Like Bum, IMO they go hand and hand!

quote:

Originally posted by nc42dad:

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by nc42dad:

MLB teams focus on throwing mechanics and repeating them corectly over and over. I have not seen that same kind of emphasis anywhere else. Just throwing long toss & not throwing correctly is futile.

In college my player went through painful (tough outings and days found himself in the doghouse with pitching coach) adjustments to learn to repeat the delivery over and over and over and over. He's also get in trouble trying to sneak in a pitch not allowed.

Not sure I understand... so Clemson does focus on a throwing program? It would not surprise me. Our experience for high school anyway, is that most people really don't understand throwing mechanics. Lot's of drills, maybe long toss, but most of it is done incorrectly or doesn't work. But I am curious what you ran into.

I am under the assumption that most pitchers that head off to college get instruction, same with hitters, most do not come all ready made for the college game. This works on all levels. The whole idea is, especially if your son wants to progress to the next level, is to try to find a program in which he will progress, not digress.
If not, I am wondering why son spent hours and hours working with his pitching coach. BP's were not just for BP they were your learning and review for teh week if the coach saw problems in your delivery.
Mine owes wherever he ends up to his college pitching coach.
I am confused, did you not think that anyone worked with players at that level? I suppose a lot depends on the coach also.
He was lucky, he worked with a pitching coach who is a very good pitching coach. He also pretty much had very sound mechanics before he arrived, but it was constant adjusting, tweaking, adjusting, etc.

Two Division 1 pitchers, both work in the 89-92 range and can juice it if needed. Pitcher A is projected Top 10 picks, and pitcher B anywhere before the end of the 2nd round:

Pitcher A:

WHIP: 1.340
K/IP: 0.980

Pitcher B:

WHIP: 1.530
K/IP: 0.790

This pitcher is under .500 WL and an ERA near 5.00
Pitcher A is way over .500 and an ERA near 4.00

Command and Control with some velocity seems to be emphasized.

O8,
When pitchers stats become that close it's not just based upon stats, but future projection?

Maybe PG can comment.

quote:

Two Division 1 pitchers, both work in the 89-92 range and can juice it if needed. Pitcher A is projected Top 10 picks, and pitcher B anywhere before the end of the 2nd round:

Pitcher A:

WHIP: 1.340
K/IP: 0.980

Pitcher B:

WHIP: 1.530
K/IP: 0.790

This pitcher is under .500 WL and an ERA near 5.00
Pitcher A is way over .500 and an ERA near 4.00

Command and Control with some velocity seems to be emphasized.

Rake the Ball

OLDSLUGGER,

Every time I hear about someone’s win/loss record or ERA I can’t help but think of a guy I watched as a kid who played in the lower levels of the minor leagues in our town. He went 0-9 with a 9.59 ERA. He also walked more hitters than he struck out that year. His whip was 2.28. He was 18 years old at that time.

If stats were very important, this would have been his last year in professional baseball.

Then two years later at age 20 he was pitching in the Big Leagues for the Milwaukee Braves. Three years later he won 19 games and the next year he won 24 games. By the time he was 24 years old he had close to 70 Big League wins. The same guy who was 0-9 in Cedar Rapids with over a 9 ERA.

He might be more well known for what he did as a hitter for the Atlanta Braves in their first year of existence. He is the pitcher who hit two grand slams in a game.
Tony Cloninger

He was my very first lesson in realizing the importance of statistics when it comes to scouting or predicting success in the future. Heck, his stats were IN professional baseball, so how important could college or high school stats be? You have to look way beyond the stats, they can really fool you. Either way, sometimes!

I was emphasizing velocity is nice, in conjunction with control and command. Feel free to adjust these metal bat stats as long as they stay in proportion.

In my opinion, the less baserunners has a direct effect on the amount of potential runs scored against you as a pitcher.

Did that clarify the post?

OLDSLUGGER,

I was just telling a true story that I'm always reminded of when I hear or see statistics.

I understood your post and your opinion completely. It didn't need clarification. Maybe I gave the impression somehow that there was some kind of disagreement. Not the case at all. I appreciate and respect your opinions and in this case I agree with your opinion.

I usually just write what's on my mind. Never really thinking whether or not I'm agreeing or disagreeing with any one in particular.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PGStaff:
OLDSLUGGER,


I understood your post and your opinion completely. I appreciate and respect your opinions and in this case I agree with your opinion.QUOTE]

Then you're in the minority...lol

OS,

When you're comparing someone projected in the upper half of the first round (top 10 picks) vs. someone projected in the 2nd round (maybe 50th-80th pick), remember that you are talking about guys who are very close on the heels of each other. Keep it in perspective. They draft 50 rounds plus the supplemental rounds, plus, how many more players aren't drafted at all? You're talking about a 99th percentile guy vs. a 99.5th percentile guy ... and by the time this spring is out it could still all change.

Sometimes when I read pre-draft writeups on PGX or BA, it seems like the commentary is highly critical. But you have to remember that often those are comments that are trying to divine the 1st rounder from the 2nd rounder, in a 50 round draft. The differences might well be slight, and indeed, there are many 2nd rounders doing quite well in MLB right now, while some even from the 1st round never get there.

Why is one guy rated higher than another? Could be body type, someone's opinion of projection, or just someone getting it all wrong. There are after all some very successful 2nd rounders in MLB, and some 1st rounders who were busts.

Check back in 10 years and let us know how it turned out, then we'll have an interesting discussion!

Midlo, that mere difference of one run in ERA between the 2 pitchers is huge, and indicative of command and control, meaning one allows more baserunners and scoring opportunities.

The difference, as you know between the 5th pick of the draft and the 65th can be millions of dollars.

The thread is about 90mph. Forget projection and how these 2 may develop further. I was pointing out that velocity is nice, and needed, but command and control is very important also.

The hitters can hit velocity, especially in college with metal bats.

By the way. The 2 pitchers for this example are very similar in size, physique, and both RHP.

You can't measure this scenerio in bonus dollars. One player may get picked on a team that gets 5 picks the first 3 rounds, another on a team that has one in two. You are also at the mercy of who drafts you and their reasons, all teams want different things. Yes they want the pitcher to get outs, but for some it's how they get those outs that might matter. Mine might be a good example, though not with the best stats and too many walks and not enough strike outs in college, he's a sinkerballer, and the organization that drafted him likes tall sinkerballers. Others didn't. He also had a better GO to FO ratio and obviously they liked that stat. We have no clue what they are thinking, we think we do but we don't. The same way for college coaches.

Sometimes a college player is willing to give up money for a higher pick, for most college players it's all about a shot after 3-4 years in school, not always the bonus $$.

For pitchers, in proball, sometimes the difference is in who is developed the farthest, age, one may throw 3-4 pitches for strikes another only two, how they pitch against wood another on fielding his position. Some very good pitchers cannot field their position well, that is huge in proball. Does the pitcher have a great SO record but does he throw too many pitches to get them out. Is he coachable or have a mind of his own, his off field activities, his GPA in college. Who might be an inning eater and who might not. Some teams actually consider mechanics, does he have the mechanics that requires longetivity. Pitchers stats are very hard to determine, as their ERA is affected by others on the field, some scouts prefer PFP, pitchers fielding performance. So although those two pitchers are close, they may be farther apart than we realize.

Is command and control always a consideration, no. I have seen a pitcher with no command awarded a first round pick, but he threw closer to 100 than 90. I have seen a pitcher with control and command but not velo get drafted later. Philosophy is that you can teach the control and command you can't teach the velo. A college pitcher with velo, control and command is as PG pointed out the top of the charts for most teams, example David Price.

...and for high school kids/draft you must also factor in signability. A round 3 kid may not necessarily be better than a kid drafted in round 15 but he gets drafted because he will sign. Many of the high school kids who throw 90 do not even get drafted out of high school because they are firm in their college committment too.

The kid everyone is listing as the #1 selection in the 2009 draft has a career college

WHIP: .819
K/IP: 1.34

Those are dominant numbers, especially with metal bats. He isn't just throwing fastballs up there.

Correct, I hear his slider is flat-out nasty.

But how many like him are out there? Not many. That's what makes him able to command the big bucks.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
Correct, I hear his slider is flat-out nasty.

But how many like him are out there? Not many. That's what makes him able to command the big bucks.

Yes, but obviously his "stuff", which includes command and location, indicated by his performances so far are a huge factor in his status.

You can have a couple hundred 90 plus in college. Why aren't all of them as successful?

Command and Control

Stephen Strasburg was not drafted out of high school.

In 2005 at the PG WWBA World Championship in Jupiter he topped out at 91 with a 71 mph CB and an 80 mph CH. We ranked him #138 in the national list as a senior in high school.

quote:

You can have a couple hundred 90 plus in college. Why aren't all of them as successful?

Command and Control

There not as successful for the most part because they don’t have as good an arm as Stephen Strasburg! They don’t throw anywhere near his VELOCITY!

The first pick last year also had more than just high velocity, but he did have high velocity… as seen by everyone in the playoffs and world series this year. Everyone got to see, first hand, the value of velocity when it’s combines with good life and a good breaking ball. While the total package is what makes a first round pitcher, Strasburg is not your normal 90 plus guy. If he had what he has and threw low 90s he wouldn’t even be talked about as a potential first pick. What separates him from all the other 90 plus guys is he is a high 90s guy.

First round pitchers usually have much more than just 90 plus velocity. The one thing you can pretty much count on that they will all have alike is “velocity”.

There have been pitchers drafted in the first round who did not have control or good secondary pitches. These are the guys who throw with extreme velocity (Colt Griffin)

On the other hand… What you do not see is guys with great control and excellent secondary pitches who have great statistics and below average velocity, drafted in the first round! One thing that is consistent in all first round picks is good velocity.

The thing that makes Stephen Strasburg a first round guy is his great arm that has the capability of throwing triple digits. Then the other stuff moves him to the top of the list.

Fact: There are thousands of pitchers with control and command. There are only a few of them that can throw 100 mph. Good command of mid 80s is great. Good command of low 90s is much better. Good command of 100 mph is first pick of the draft good. If all have good command, what is the separator?

while this thread is about throwing 90,it has turned some towards top draft picks.

why do you think all the talk is alway's about top draft picks? there are many drafted in the 20's and 30's rounds that throw 90+. they are in theory among the best we have. the unsung flamethrower's. until one makes it,then they beat the odds.

i guess it is more fun talking about the best of the 1500 than the rest of the 1500.

Throwing 90 is not PITCHING 90

Max ability to throw a baseball vs velocity at which you can pitch a baseball. I dont know any kid that has the ability to pitch for any length of time at his max speed. And the fact is they are not as effective when they try to do that. That is why velocity is important. If a kid can rare back and for one pitch hit 90 that means he probably pitches in the 85-87 range. So when a kid rares back and hits 87 for one pitch that tells you he is probably a 83-84 guy. There are exceptions to every rule.

When your watching that ml pitcher on tv and he is consistently 89-91 dont think for one minute that he is maxed out and that is how hard he can throw. That is where he chooses to work because that is the range in which he has learned he is most effective throwing strikes and hitting his spots. If he can work in that range you can bet he can dial it up if he chooses to.

If you can throw 90 thats great. If you can pitch at 90 chances are you will get paid to do just that one day.

Coach May,

I saw a high school kid hit 97-98 in every one of his 7 innings of a game last June, including 98 on a punchout that ended his day. And it was a 100 degree day.

Thanks for reviving an interesting old thread.  Folks, you'll know when you high school player is throwing  90 when the scouts show up with radar guns.  If they aren't there, he ain't throwing 90.  Or if they put up the gun the first 1/2 inning then pack it away, he ain't throwing 90.

 

The average h.s. fastball is 78.  If your kid is 85 in h.s. he's in the top 10%.  If he's sitting 90+ (and he isn't) keep your phone charged.

I can testify to that.  Son's teammate during his senior year in HS was throwing 92-93 (occasionally touching 95-96).  During the previous season there had been 1-2 scouts at his legion and fall games.  The very first spring game the following year, there were 20 scouts at the opening game.  One other factor is he still throwing as hard in the 5th-6th inning as he was in the 1st-2nd.  Son's teammate would still be at the same velocity in the 6th as he was in the 1st.  Eventually was drafted by the Ray's.

In my observation it varies tremendously depending on what part of the country you're in (not as much high velo in cold weather areas where they don't play as much), and how much population you have (which tends to relate to size of the schools and also to the availability of professional instruction).

 

In the Richmond, VA area, we've had years where there were as many as 6 kids who could get up to 90 or higher with any kind of consistency in any one season.  Some seasons only 2-3, though.  This is a Mid-Atlantic climate with just about 1 million in the metro area. 

 

For purposes of this, if a kid was a sophomore throwing 85 but by the time he was a senior he climbed above 90, I'm only counting him in the year when he got above 90.  If you counted all the kids who will some day get above 90, then we probably see 12 of them in the area in a typical year.

 

Now, if you're asking about guys who SIT above 90, those are very rare.  Probably only seen 3 of them in the last 10 years.  That includes one this year.

 

In rural areas (A or AA level), it's more common to see lower velocity guys pressed into action.  In AAA areas, there are going to be guys at 78 but they'd better be crafty or they might see the rockets' red glare.  Most games I see involve fastballs in the 80-85 range.  Anything 85-90 starts to get by guys.  Anything 90 or above tends to involve domination of a game.

 

 

Reach 90 and pitch successfully in a game situation would be a better question for me. I've seen some really fast "throwers', but they are inconsistant, even to the point of being dangerous-wild pitches,etc. Velocity is only one piece of the pie. Location, off speed numbers, also important. Developing a good quality pitcher takes time.First, they need to have great mechanics or they will hit a wall, and/or experience injuries.

Reach 90 and pitch successfully in a game situation would be a better question for me. I've seen some really fast "throwers', but they are inconsistant, even to the point of being dangerous-wild pitches,etc. Velocity is only one piece of the pie. Location, off speed numbers, also important. Developing a good quality pitcher takes time.First, they need to have great mechanics or they will hit a wall, and/or experience injuries.

playball, there is a direct, positive correlation between velocity and accuracy, not the other way around.  Do you realize it's good mechanics that let them throw 90 to begin with?  Granted, some top-tier 95+ guys sometimes struggle with command, but if you watch the 85-90 guys in h.s. and especially the 88-92 guys in college and beyond, these are the same guys who also locate.  My son threw 90 in h.s., but was working 87-89, and his command was superb.  Therefore, work on velocity first.  How are you going to learn to not be "dangerous-wild" and command a 90 MPH pitch if you don't learn to throw one to begin with?  Makes no sense.

I agree with Bum, work on velocity and worry about the accuracy later.

 

Most balls that leave a pitchers hand throwing higher velocity don't always end up where they were intended.  Most ML hitters have trouble catching up to a 95-100 FB, so location is not always most important.

 

JMO

 

I remember listening to Nolan Ryan talk about his own lack of control as a hard throwing HS player.  Coaches told him to hang back and throw strikes but Nolan was convinced that he was never going to learn how to throw strikes at 95 by trying to throw strikes at 80.  His message to HS players in the interview was to learn how to throw as hard as you can and everything else, including off speed and breaking stuff, will take care of itself.

 

I guess thats easy for one of the worlds hardest throwers to say but the point is well taken;  Ultimately, you have to learn how to throw strikes WHILE throwing as hard as you can.

throwing 90+ is great for the radar gun,,max effort kids that hit 90+ i dont really care about unless they have the mechanics and arm slot and movement I can work with, I like a guy 86-89 with a smooth delivery and the right arm slot, a lefty thats slightly slower can get more attention than a righty with more velocity,just because he is a lefty,,but a smooth delivery, right arm slot,and movement make me want to see him more than a max effort guy that MUSCLES up to get it there,,wont last long in my book,,practice practice practice,,work on your mechanics and arm slot ..if the velocity is in there,,it will come out.

For what it is worth heres my two cents. Always believed throwing 90+ was huge, still do. But I firmly believe it is not the be all end all. The ability to make guys miss and not put good swings on pitches ,in my mind, trumps everything else. Yes, 90+ will make guys miss, but the pitch that causes distress in hitters is the change up. And it doesn't have to come off of a 95 mph fastball.Big enough differential in fastball -change up is devestating. Case in point,Luis Tiant started as a flame thrower, but it was well after he could not bring it anymore that he was the most dominant pitcher in baseball for a number of years. While I admitt 90+ will get you noticed when did "pitchers" stopped getting looked at? Granted I'm not talking about someone who is sitting at 80-81 but what about 85-89?Thats where Tiant stood for those 5 yrs. Is the scouting community so enamoured with the gun that they forget what pitching is about? Give me 88 with tons of movement over a straight 91 any day of the week. Remember, hitting is all about timing and good hitters, never mind professional ones, can time a fastball given enough looks. Movement gives them fits.I'm not saying  90+ isn't desirable just that the game doesnt start and end there. Oldscout makes huge point concerning throwing effort. This discussion kind of goes hand in hand with my thoughts that people seem enthralled with certain tools and not how they are used, ie. knowing how to play the game. Seems baseball players are taking a backseat to tools only. you need a few tools but baseball iq and how to play are just as important in my bool