Timing pitcher's stride

Originally Posted by jolietboy:

Wondering if anyone else out there times (and measures) their pitcher's strides to the plate.  If PG reads this I would be curious to know if it is something they look at.  There are a number of ways to time it I supose but for velocity sake I would think from forward momentum to land and to release would be most important.  Thoughts?

 

I’m all for tracking just about everything, but I’m lost on this one. Are you saying the velocity a pitcher’s body moves toward the plate is relative to the ball release velocity?

       
       
Absolutely.  First generator of velocity actually.  Long stride is important but the faster you can make that long stride the more power you deliver.

In fact there is a study out there somewhere that found a very close coorelation between time from highest apex of the knee kick and foot strike to velocity. It was eerily consistent. I'll see if I can't find that.

If you want some science backing this theory up, read some of Brent Pourciau at TopVelocity.net.  Pretty good information for thought.

       
       
thanks root!  I am all about science independent study numbers and video.  I think this is a fairly new or at least secerely underused measurement so I was wondering what others have done with it.  I plan to put a board painted white with black lines behind the mound (like a giant ruler) then put an I pad with a stopwatch app on in front of the mound.  Then video.  By freeze framing I am hoping we can clearly see stopwatch.  Freeze at forward momentum and at landing.  Simple subtraction gives the time.

I am not too sure about this. Effective pitching is a summation of a bunch of complex movements ending with the release of the baseball. I am not sure I would want a pitcher thinking about generating the fastest stride to generate velocity. These may be touch points, but pitchers need "keys" that trigger them to repeat a delivery that is consistent and effective.At least for my son it is about drive foot placement, hip drive in a very specific way, landing foot position, arm break, glove side placement, and some other arm touch points. If simply driving to the plate faster equals higher velocity then everyone would just have to leap to the plate as fast as they could and they would throw hard. 

 

I am not sure if I understand what would be done with the data to change behavior, and how it would be implemented. I am not an expert just an observer, but it seems like there are a lot of other things to focus on.  

       
       
big leaguers are around .7 seconds so that is a goal.  But they also have longer strides so that is part of the equation as well.  I would challenge them to beat their own numbers while maintaining their mechanics.  And if you think about it pitching is kind of a lateral leap.  And there is a lot of data showing lateral jump has a direct correlation to velocity.

       
       
good food for thought there.  I have read his stuff.  Also talked a lot about it to my sons trainer who interned for cressey.  And although he is far from my favorite guru dick mills talks a lot about it as well.

Speed down the mound certainly equates into velocity...the more explosive you move out of hand break, the longer the stride....the more speed / momentum into back hip rotation,... the more elastic energy you should develop (i.e. hip / shoulder separation)....assuming all has sequenced up the chain of movements.....  Having said that, you are not going to get a CC Sabathia, moving the same as a Roy Oswalt.  A lot of this has to do with body build. 

Jolieboy,

 

When you hear about the 0.7 secs,  this is time to the plate with runners on base with a slide step, which is important for holding the runners but actually messes up mechanics.

 

I know my son's previous pitching coaches talk about "tempo and intent to throw hard" but I have never heard anything about timing drive to contact point. Not that it might be important, just never heard about it and not sure what and how you would change behavior based on a series of measurements.  

Of course there's more to it, but momentum is a much ignored factor and it's a big one. Here's the analogy I like to use. Most tend to agree that velocity is more about body action than arm action - the arm and hand are the end of the kinetic chain. Picture yourself standing on top of a car moving down the road. The car hits a brick wall. Now, you are going to fly off that car, the only question is how fast are you going to fly off that car? Your coming off that car with a much greater velocity if the car is traveling 50mph than you are if it's going 20 mph. The baseball coming out of your hand is the same as you flying off that car. The minute you brace your body with the stride foot, stopping momentum just like the car hitting the wall, you have ended the forward momentum of your body and it is transferred to your arm and hand. When the arm and hand halt momentum, the ball flies out. It only follows (in fact must follow by the laws of physics) that the faster your body travels, the faster your arm travels and the faster the ball travels.

 

Is it the only important part of velocity? Of course not. But, it is one thing you can easily change assuming your velocity off the mound isn't that great to begin with.

The .7 seconds he's talking about isn't time to the plate. No one gets .7 seconds time to the plate, by the way. 1.1 is a very fast slide step time to the plate.

I just saw BFS post or compare Lincecom vs Nolan Ryan, or a Jonathon Broxton vs a Bob Feller. I don't think it is something to worry about frankly, too many others to get right. JMO.

roothog - +1 on your explanation...you said it much better than I did.

 

Pitchers that don't move as explosively as others, must sequence the momentum they do produce much more efficiently...so it is not an absolute for velocity, just another component in the equation.

Roothog,

 

I get what you are saying but say the difference between a fast stride vs a slow stride is what in MPH? 1 or 2 at max. So if I take a guy with a whip who snaps it at 100 vs 98 does this make a lot of difference? I don't see it. Certainly part of the teaching on throwing hard is about tempo. 

 

Again I am not sure, but having been around pitchers and instructors for quite some time I am not sure how you are gong to measure this and then how are you going to implement meaningful change. 

Let's break this down into 4 basic sequences:

 

1. stride down the mound (this is where speed can make a difference)

2. Hip rotation

3. trunk (shoulder rotation)

4. arm layback / ball release

 

All of the above sequences are influenced by the preceding sequence, and only happen after that preceding sequence stops, therefore if the first sequence (speed of stride down the mound is faster, than the last sequence will have more speed (ball release).

Well, if you have a pitcher who already has good, quick explosive moves down the mound, you aren't going to create a lot of extra velocity. However, I have kids come to me all the time with this idea of a balancing at leg lift and then presenting a slow, deliberate movement down the mound. Those kids I can make quick progress with.

As far as measurement, I'm trying to find a pretty good study I found a while back. However it was (some help here?) measured time from the top of knee lift to foot strike of a decent sample of mlb pitchers and the correlation between those times and the corresponding velocity was pretty consistent.

Roothog, I get what you are saying, and some of my son's his early instructors talked to him about "intent to throw hard and tempo" which is what you are talking about. I think you can get his by getting a kid to stand in front of a mirror and drive tot he plate with quick and slow tempo and you will get what you are looking for.

 

What I have seen in in the past year and a half with my son who went from a mid to high 80's pitcher who is now sitting at 91-93 and a lot of this had to do with hip drive, drive foot placement, (like anything there was a lot more but this is the most visible difference)   I think you can generate that velo with good hard hip drive, and work on this vs trying to time them down a mound. 

I've had pretty good success with concentrating first on the lower body - fast explosive move down the mound and (I know this goes against the grain of a lot of traditional thought) getting the hips completely open by foot strike. Then I move to the upper body. For me, I've broken my teaching down into three main factors that I think, together, contribute 98% to velocity. Momentum down the hill, hip/shoulder separation, and max peak valgus angle (aka arm layback). The rest is fine tuning. Of the three, I find that arm lay back angle is the hardest to make any change with. It seems to me that may be the most genetically determined factor of the three.