Trackman fb data interpretation

I am not sure how valuable are max metrics for assessing pitching. I think the average velo, spin, movement based on pitch type is a better indicator. I thought Bauer unit was a tweet metric, I kid, I kid. Not sure if it is as useful if you do not have top tier velo and spin

I have the average rates and can post them too if that might help:

Average spin rate: 1861; Average  IVB: 19.2; Average HM: -5

Actually the great thing about the data and Bauer units specifically is that it is relevant not just for top-level MLB velo and spin rates. What the Bauer units can do is adjust the spin rate comparison for lower velos (like in hs ball).

Here's a good explanation:

https://www.drivelinebaseball....ts-pitch-comparison/

Here's from the conclusion to that article: "For pitch development, Bauer Units can help determine how a younger pitcher can best use his fastball. They are interesting to know for offspeed pitches, but knowing an offspeed pitcher’s Bauer Unit doesn’t directly benefit pitch development. In the end, Bauer Units are going to be most useful for coaches who deal with pitchers who don’t throw at elite velocities, such as high school and some college pitchers. It will normalize spin rate so you can understand if your pitchers have an average, above average, or below average spin rate, which will affect how your pitchers can utilize their fastballs."

Also, this article (ignore the title) is a really good example of Trackman info (Including Bauer units) being used for hs pitchers and what they should work on:

http://twinsdaily.com/articles...form-fastballs-r8204

Personally, I wouldn't worry about 4 seam vs 2 seam vs spin rates vs etc... at least until his 77 max velo ticks up. If he starts to increase velo then usually "over the top" guys have success with 4 seam FB and 12/6 curveballs. (please take this with a grain of salt as I do not know your son, just trying to give you some honest feedback)  My recommendation is to find a quality pitching coach along with a proven program that can help with the increase in velo. Movement, spin, vertical break, and so on.... can significantly change with faster velocities.

While I like seeing all this data (Really liked that it was on the board for the World Series), I think unless you have a pitching coach that really understands it, it can be a negative to coach to the stats.  When our hs got Rapsodo last year, my son's pitching coach (not at the school) told him not to change anything due to the metrics. I think it is good for evaluating, but not necessarily coaching.  IVB and IHB tell you why some guys throwing 92-93 get swing and misses and others get launched and why some guys are successful with lower velocity.

I do find it interesting that my son's Bauer units are similar to your sons (26.56) and are drastically different in all metrics.  

Knowing a pitchers Bauer Units can be really useful for comparing across different velocities. But I think one thing many people get wrong is only focusing on high spin rate.  A Bauer Unit that is 22 (low spin rate relative to velocity) is equally as effective.  It plays out as a sinking fastball and 2 seams are even more effective.  Essentially what is not good is to have an average Bauer Unit (24) since whatever the velocity is, it's much easier to time up and locate since batters get used to seeing them.  Being an outlier on either side of the scale is better. 

@ReluctantO'sFan posted:

Personally, I wouldn't worry about 4 seam vs 2 seam vs spin rates vs etc... at least until his 77 max velo ticks up. If he starts to increase velo then usually "over the top" guys have success with 4 seam FB and 12/6 curveballs. (please take this with a grain of salt as I do not know your son, just trying to give you some honest feedback)  My recommendation is to find a quality pitching coach along with a proven program that can help with the increase in velo. Movement, spin, vertical break, and so on.... can significantly change with faster velocities.

Thanks for the reply! To be clear, me working on his data is kind of just for fun and mostly for my own interest. He's already committed to his D3 school and their coaches will have him this time next year and earlier. (My other son is a D3 sophomore RHP, so this isn't my first rodeo.) No worries here.

My son has had good pitching coaches, velo programs (and injuries !), and so  I know his his velo is what it is: not huge, liable to tick up over the next few years, but huge jumps are pretty rare. (He's also a powerlifter so he has some strength to unlock: deadlifts 530 and squats 440 at 17 years old). He certainly is at just about the lowest end of velo for a college pitcher, but was helped by many factors, LHP, his decent size and strength, maybe his trackman data, and of course all the other things that go into getting a commit: luck, grades, fit, the financial aid, etc. (I'm pretty glad to be done with recruitment for both sons, to be honest!)

But spin rate and the other metrics are still useful for strategies even at lower velos; you don't need to throw only in the mid to upper 80s and beyond for that to be the case. (See the article I posted above.) From what I've read, a Bauer unit over 24 qualifies as high spin (of course, that's adjusted for velo, which is what Bauer units do in the first place) and so your fb has more carry and you should work more up than down, and maybe not bother with the 2-seam which takes a bit off his velo anyway. That would make sense why my son even at his relatively slow velo gets a lot of Ks, especially paired with his out pitch which is a good changeup. Also, while some things change at higher velocities (and can be altered by grips, etc.), it's my understanding that spin rate does not drastically change with higher velo, that it is pretty much built into all the subtle ways you body throws the ball.  Some pitchers are low spin, some high spin, some average spin--and that's regardless of velo. There are MLB players who throw high spin fastballs in the 90s and MLB players who throw low spin fastballs in the 90s. Same with low velos.

So I'm curious about this in a general way and also for some guidelines to him to work on over his final hs season. Not going to drastically change anything since he hasn't been broken: he's the best pitcher on his team and has a D3 commit.

What I really need is someone who is just a step or two more versed in interpreting and applying the Trackman data than I am , even at the hs/lower velo level. (But just in a general conversational way for just this data set rom a PBR event--not looking to spend several thousand to send him to Driveline or the Texas Baseball Ranch!)

@wildcat posted:

Knowing a pitchers Bauer Units can be really useful for comparing across different velocities. But I think one thing many people get wrong is only focusing on high spin rate.  A Bauer Unit that is 22 (low spin rate relative to velocity) is equally as effective.  It plays out as a sinking fastball and 2 seams are even more effective.  Essentially what is not good is to have an average Bauer Unit (24) since whatever the velocity is, it's much easier to time up and locate since batters get used to seeing them.  Being an outlier on either side of the scale is better.

Yes that's exactly right. Thanks for the reply.

@baseballhs posted:

While I like seeing all this data (Really liked that it was on the board for the World Series), I think unless you have a pitching coach that really understands it, it can be a negative to coach to the stats.  When our hs got Rapsodo last year, my son's pitching coach (not at the school) told him not to change anything due to the metrics. I think it is good for evaluating, but not necessarily coaching.  IVB and IHB tell you why some guys throwing 92-93 get swing and misses and others get launched and why some guys are successful with lower velocity.

I do find it interesting that my son's Bauer units are similar to your sons (26.56) and are drastically different in all metrics.  

Thanks for the reply! To be clear, me working on his data is kind of just for fun and mostly for my own interest. He's already committed to his D3 school and their coaches will have him this time next year and earlier. (My other son is a D3 sophomore RHP, so this isn't my first rodeo.) No worries here.

Pretty cool that they have the same Bauer units. I'm assuming he has a high velo than mine? I thin I have a pretty solid grasp of how to use the Bauer units, but I do not quite know how to interpret the IVB and HM--I understand what those mean, of course, but not how to translate that into pitching strategy.

My son has had good pitching coaches, velo programs (and injuries !), and so  I know his his velo is what it is: not huge, liable to tick up over the next few years, but huge jumps are pretty rare. (He's also a powerlifter so he has some strength to unlock: deadlifts 530 and squats 440 at 17 years old). He certainly is at just about the lowest end of velo for a college pitcher, but was helped by many factors, LHP, his decent size and strength, maybe his trackman data, and of course all the other things that go into getting a commit: luck, grades, fit, the financial aid, etc. (I'm pretty glad to be done with recruitment for both sons, to be honest!)

But spin rate and the other metrics are still useful for strategies even at lower velos; you don't need to throw only in the mid to upper 80s and beyond for that to be the case. (See the article I posted above.) From what I've read, a Bauer unit over 24 qualifies as high spin (of course, that's adjusted for velo, which is what Bauer units do in the first place) and so your fb has more carry and you should work more up than down, and maybe not bother with the 2-seam which takes a bit off his velo anyway. That would make sense why my son even at his relatively slow velo gets a lot of Ks, especially paired with his out pitch which is a good changeup. Also, while some things change at higher velocities (and can be altered by grips, etc.), it's my understanding that spin rate does not drastically change with higher velo, that it is pretty much built into all the subtle ways you body throws the ball.  Some pitchers are low spin, some high spin, some average spin--and that's regardless of velo. There are MLB players who throw high spin fastballs in the 90s and MLB players who throw low spin fastballs in the 90s. Same with low velos.

So I'm curious about this in a general way and also for some guidelines to him to work on over his final hs season. Not going to drastically change anything since he hasn't been broken: he's the best pitcher on his team and has a D3 commit.

What I really need is someone who is just a step or two more versed in interpreting and applying the Trackman data than I am , even at the hs/lower velo level. (But just in a general conversational way for just this data set rom a PBR event--not looking to spend several thousand to send him to Driveline or the Texas Baseball Ranch!)

Definitely not an expert on it, but like you, have read some things to try to get an understanding.  Agree that it isn't necessarily high spin rate, it is a spin rate that is higher or lower than average.  Basically making the ball move differently than anticipated due to the way an average fastball typically moves.  I started looking at it before my son committed.  We were at a Vanderbilt camp and my son and another kid had basically the same velo.  Both boys were asked to stay after and tour the facilities. After the camp, they sent us all the trackman data from their 3 minutes outing, but it also included everyone else in the spreadsheet.  My son's spinrate was higher than average, the other kid's spinrate much lower than average.  They committed the other kid a few days later.  They called my son for months but never offered.  The other kid was pretty small compared to mine so I always thought it had to do with spinrate, as they were both equally effective in their outings.

My son has never thrown a 2 seam either, but is not an over the top pitcher. For the 26.6  Bauer Units on my son's fb: 93.5 SR: 2484 IVM 14.9 IHM 19.6

@baseballhs posted:

Definitely not an expert on it, but like you, have read some things to try to get an understanding.  Agree that it isn't necessarily high spin rate, it is a spin rate that is higher or lower than average.  Basically making the ball move differently than anticipated due to the way an average fastball typically moves.  I started looking at it before my son committed.  We were at a Vanderbilt camp and my son and another kid had basically the same velo.  Both boys were asked to stay after and tour the facilities. After the camp, they sent us all the trackman data from their 3 minutes outing, but it also included everyone else in the spreadsheet.  My son's spinrate was higher than average, the other kid's spinrate much lower than average.  They committed the other kid a few days later.  They called my son for months but never offered.  The other kid was pretty small compared to mine so I always thought it had to do with spinrate, as they were both equally effective in their outings.

My son has never thrown a 2 seam either, but is not an over the top pitcher. For the 26.6  Bauer Units on my son's fb: 93.5 SR: 2484 IVM 14.9 IHM 19.6

Thanks for the reply! Your son's numbers look awesome. Can I ask where your son committed? Both of my boys were/are pretty clearly at D3 level, but we're very happy with the schools, fit etc. (High academic small liberal arts colleges in MN.)

Tons of luck and chance factors figure into who gets an offer and who doesn't. I'm just happy my boys can keep playing. I'm pretty sure his school has Rapsodo / Trackman, so next year at this time they will have the numbers on him and teach him. But I still wish I understood his current numbers better.

Both you and I have boys over 24 on the Bauer units, so that would imply not to work down with a 2-seamer. My only question there was how far above 24 do you have to be to make that the case? Is 26 "far enough" above 24 to make that the case? From what I've read, it is. And yes, our two boys show, I believe, that the Bauer measurement is not an absolute measurement (like higher or lower velo), but rather a relative "score,"  if that makes sense. Your boy has way higher velo and spin rate than mine, but the same Bauer score, because the Bauer score is simply telling you what approach you should take with your pitches. Because clearly your son is on an entirely different level! To push it even farther, Yu Darvish and Blake Snell have an identical score to our boys: 26.6 and 26.7. So the Bauer score isn't saying that our boys and those two pitchers are all at the same level! And Aroldis Chapman scores lower: 25.2. So the misunderstanding comes from seeing the Bauer score as a kind of simple "ranking," I think.

Maybe a good analogy for a Bauer unit score is something like a credit rating: you can be a bad credit risk or a good credit risk and that number is on the same scale, but that doesn't tell you how much money you have or your overall financial value. Someone making $500,00/year and someone making $30,000 / year can have the same credit rating or very different credit ratings. The rating just tells you, within your world, what you should or shouldn't do.

But still not sure what to do with the IVB and the HM numbers (or why my boy's has the negative sign in front of the HM number).

Here's a good very Trackman write up for a 2021 kid my son actually used to play with; it's exactly what I would like to know about my son's numbers (even if the news isn't that great, and/or his numbers change, which they will, lol):

https://www.prepbaseballreport...ta-Commit-9864012375

From Trackman

1. InducedVerticalBreak — Distance, measured in inches, between where the pitch actually crosses the front of home plate height-wise, and where it would have crossed home plate height-wise if had it traveled in a perfectly straight line from release, but affected by gravity.

Note: If this number is positive, the ball broke “upwards”, or in reality dropped less than it would have due to gravity alone – it does not necessarily mean that the ball actually rose.

1. HorzBreak — Distance, measured in inches, between where the pitch actually crosses the front of home plate side-wise, and where it would have crossed home plate side-wise if had it traveled in a perfectly straight line from release. A positive number means the break was to the right from the pitcher’s perspective, while a negative number means the break was to the left from the pitcher’s perspective.