Transfer Portal / NIL / Competitive Balance

@cabbagedad posted:

Professional leagues have spent years trying to find the right formula to maintain reasonable competitive balance.  Now, with the combined effects of relatively new rules (or lack thereof) for transfering and the NIL, NCAA competitive balance will be thrown drastically further in the wrong direction.  Now more than ever, players will be bought by the highest bidder with no restrictions or limitations.

So many of you have been big proponents of either the looser transfer guidelines, pay for play or both.  I think it will severely damage the good in college sports. Just today, yet another example... the leading WR in the PAC12 (from Arizona) announces he is transferring to USC.  I didn't drill down to any rationale but such a player could very well just do so because he wants to play for the strongest team.  And that strongest team can lure away such players with NIL promises.

And don't get me started on whatever happened to the term "commitment".  A few days ago, the #1 QB recruit in the class of '24 decommitted with no reason given.  This is happening at a much more frequent rate than ever before.

College sports wasn't perfect before but it was pretty darn good in so many ways.  I think there was need to loosen transfer rules but not make it a complete free-for-all.  Same with NIL.  They went way too far with these changes.  Sad.  Loved college sports.  I hope it survives without too much damage.

Here is a interesting podcast The Economics of College Sports

https://econofact.org/podcast/...cs-of-college-sports

I'm having a tough time seeing how this plays out in a positive way for college sports (in general, not for the top programs and players).  Not to add more s*!# on the pile, but more and more football players are opting out of bowl games to avoid the possibility of injury.  Are they going to opt out of the BCS too?  What impact would this have on the value of the post season and the revenue it generates.  This whole system could collapse on itself and eventually be the undoing of even the top programs.

When I see football and basketball commitments I'm unfazed now. There used to be some decommitting. Now I think to myself, " Let's see where he shows up freshman year."

@cabbagedad posted:

So many of you have been big proponents of either the looser transfer guidelines, pay for play or both.

I’m one of those folks. The one-time transfer exception is “one time”, so it’s not complete chaos. And NIL has helped 1,000s of kids earn some money which often helps with student loan debt. What actual harm have the changes caused? (I am actually interested, I'm not trying to be confrontational.) As far as competitive balance, haven’t we always had the same teams in the FBS, and even FCS, football “playoffs” every year? Basketball might be a tiny bit better in terms of balance, but we know basketball has the worst track record when it comes to paying kids under the table anyway. The coaches can leave for more money any time they want, so why shouldn't the kids be allowed to move one time without sitting out for an entire season? To paraphrase Jerry Seinfeld, people cheer for the laundry. Players come and go at the big schools and the fans keep cheering.

I do think the smart thing to do would be for the big revenue schools to leave the NCAA and form their own association, and just make the players employees. They have the money, and they could avoid most of the problems caused by pretending otherwise.  Let the NCAA go back to serving legitimate student athletes, not unpaid professionals.

* edited to correct NIL

@MidAtlanticDad posted:

I do think the smart thing to do would be for the big revenue schools to leave the NCAA and form their own association, and just make the players employees. They have the money, and they could avoid most of the problems caused by pretending otherwise.  Let the NCAA go back to serving legitimate student athletes, not unpaid professionals.

Agree 100%

I am pro one time transfer. I think if it can help anybody get out of a bad situation and have them be immediately eligible it is worth it. I also don't think you should be able to transfer in conference but that is a different discussion.

The issue with football is the scholarship issue. 85 full scholarships pretty much allows you to do whatever you want. It allows all the top players to go to the same 12 schools, it allows coaches the flexibility to have anybody they want transfer in/out. It allows you to recruit everyone and just keep what works. Schools like Bama, Ohio St, etc can essentially never miss when there is an endless funnel of talent coming in because there are enough resources.

That 85 number needs to be closer to 50. The NFL has a 53 man roster limit. Think about that.

@MidAtlanticDad posted:

I’m one of those folks. The one-time transfer exception is “one time”, so it’s not complete chaos. And NLI has helped 1,000s of kids earn some money which often helps with student loan debt.

I can assure you the players getting NLI money are not going into student debt, they're on full rides.

@PABaseball posted:

I can assure you the players getting NLI money are not going into student debt, they're on full rides.

Don’t be so sure.

https://www.si.com/.amp/colleg...on-tuition-built-bar

@PABaseball posted:

I can assure you the players getting NLI money are not going into student debt, they're on full rides.

There’s a lot more NLI money out there than just for headcount sports. I know of baseball guys on partial scholarships getting anywhere from $1,000 to $10,000 from local businesses like car dealerships. I also know some players from women’s sports with small deals like equipment endorsements. UNC has an independent exchange to help connect athletes and businesses, many of them are small local deals. I’m sure others schools have similar organizations.
https://www.tarheelblog.com/20...ls-nil-opportunities

@MidAtlanticDad posted:

I’m one of those folks. The one-time transfer exception is “one time”, so it’s not complete chaos. And NLI has helped 1,000s of kids earn some money which often helps with student loan debt. What actual harm have the changes caused? (I am actually interested, I'm not trying to be confrontational.) As far as competitive balance, haven’t we always had the same teams in the FBS, and even FCS, football “playoffs” every year? Basketball might be a tiny bit better in terms of balance, but we know basketball has the worst track record when it comes to paying kids under the table anyway. The coaches can leave for more money any time they want, so why shouldn't the kids be allowed to move one time without sitting out for an entire season? To paraphrase Jerry Seinfeld, people cheer for the laundry. Players come and go at the big schools and the fans keep cheering.

I do think the smart thing to do would be for the big revenue schools to leave the NCAA and form their own association, and just make the players employees. They have the money, and they could avoid most of the problems caused by pretending otherwise.  Let the NCAA go back to serving legitimate student athletes, not unpaid professionals.

The NCAA has never served legitimate student athletes. The NCAA serves itself and it’s member institutions. No one else

@MidAtlanticDad posted:

I’m one of those folks. The one-time transfer exception is “one time”, so it’s not complete chaos. And NLI has helped 1,000s of kids earn some money which often helps with student loan debt. What actual harm have the changes caused? (I am actually interested, I'm not trying to be confrontational.) As far as competitive balance, haven’t we always had the same teams in the FBS, and even FCS, football “playoffs” every year? Basketball might be a tiny bit better in terms of balance, but we know basketball has the worst track record when it comes to paying kids under the table anyway. The coaches can leave for more money any time they want, so why shouldn't the kids be allowed to move one time without sitting out for an entire season? To paraphrase Jerry Seinfeld, people cheer for the laundry. Players come and go at the big schools and the fans keep cheering.

I do think the smart thing to do would be for the big revenue schools to leave the NCAA and form their own association, and just make the players employees. They have the money, and they could avoid most of the problems caused by pretending otherwise.  Let the NCAA go back to serving legitimate student athletes, not unpaid professionals.

Hey Mid,

Regarding "confrontational", no problem at all.  I was hoping for some good back-and-forth banter.  I realize that my opinion and preferences on the topic are not in alignment with quite a few here who are much smarter than I and maybe have better insight on this.

I think, on it's own, the one-time transfer rule is a good thing.  I also believe that student athletes needed to have less restrictions on ways they could earn money as related to their sports participation.  I just think the direction that was taken with NIL allows for too much of a free-for-all - drastic and uncontrollable.  And when you combine that with the loosening of the transfer rules, it will have significant negative impact on the spirit of college sports at the big school level, IMO.

Yes, there has historically been a lack of balance at the higher levels of college sports.  Yes, big money has played a major role.  But there was always just enough of a sense of "amateur" status maintained, just enough roster continuity and just enough community/alma mater following that fans continued to passionately root for State U.  Personally, I like the delineation between scholastic sports and professional sports.  I just think this will get diluted as it becomes more clearly and openly money driven and as good, proven college players get bounced around to the highest bidder.   Time will tell.

I don't see the need for big revenue schools to form their own association.  We already have clear separation with divisions.  D2 schools are not considered for inclusion in D1 championships or awards, etc.

If the governing body (NCAA) is flawed, that is the part that needs fixed.

https://businessofcollegesport...fic-nil-collectives/

A list of the most active and successful collectives.

"And NLI has helped 1,000s of kids earn some money which often helps with student loan debt. What actual harm have the changes caused? " (Mid Atlantic Dad)

I don't think we'll know for a few years, but when we do I'm sure we'll debate the sensibility of the current system!

If we didn't keep hearing millions of dollars, I'd be less inclined to be skeptical about NLIs. What kid really needs that much to pay tuition? Is it just a form of legalized gambling? What do the "contributors" get out of it and do they get return on their investment? Are they "compensated" by the schools in any way in the form of "no bid contracts"?

I hope the receiving students are required to attend money management classes. My assumption is some schools will 'guarantee' the student can get $X (or will be helped by someone in the athletic office to procure)... But when it doesn't come thru, they move on. No different than being guaranteed play time until of course someone better comes along. No different to the "real world" where people chase salary and change jobs every 12-18 months. Gone are the days of the 25 year employee! That chasing of salary leads eventually to lay offs when the business model cannot support it (tech companies recently). In the real world we "pay" for this in the form of unemployment taxes which perhaps is where some of these athletes are headed because all they've been taught is someone else will take care of them. I'm all for getting yours, but it does come at a certain price. In my case, it's caring that much about who is where. It is purely entertainment at this point - no different than the pros.

Think through your leave the NCAA idea... Isn't that in a way also known as the "minor leagues"? Don't they struggle to stay afloat? Going into business for themselves will be costly - they like the "fallback" of what the NCAA can provide in any number of areas related to volume (legal/laws, health, taxes, etc). It would probably destroy the rest of the schools who remain too. They know it and are willing to look the other way.

Collectives were created to help the student athlete to learn how to be successful and manage themselves as a business and provide opportunities. I think that there may be criteria involved for opportunities within individual Collectives. Usually in baseball, the prospects are projected ML.

No help is allowed to come from any university employee or the NCAA.  The coaching staff can make recommendations to a Collective.  Many states have laws in place regarding NIL.

I am all in on athletes being able to profit from their NIL, especially female athletes, many who have become pretty wealthy from their endorsements.

@PABaseball posted:

I can assure you the players getting NLI money are not going into student debt, they're on full rides.

Not in baseball…

everyone is full ride in football.

I can also tell you that some coaches are using NIL to get around scholarship requirements. They are offering NIL in the same amount as the scholarships but then there are no rules applied as to cancelling it.

@JohnF i know several on the women's basketball and baseball side. They are getting exactly what it is called...getting paid for adding their name or image to an existing product or brand or for creating their own merchandise. The ones that we are the closest with are working with financial advisors to manage the funds.

As a mother of a female D1 player who works just as hard as my baseball playing son...I'm glad to see some of these opportunities. She does not have an NIL deal but several of her HS teammates do and she's happy for them. She understands free market pressures.  Is the system perfect? no. Does it need oversight at some level to keep it from being an ungovernable free for all? ....probably. It will definitely be interesting to see where it goes...

@PTWood posted:

... Does it need oversight at some level to keep it from being an ungovernable free for all? ....probably. It will definitely be interesting to see where it goes...

That's the concern.  The NCAA struggled to manage oversight before.  Now it's the wild wild west.  I don't think it will be much of an issue at the lower levels where most student athletes will be lucky to drum up some modest amounts.  But the big programs and high level recruits?

There will never be effective oversight of NIL. Cabbagedad is absolutely right. Rich get richer - will also be greater pressure on kids to build enormous social followings- the NIL money outside revenue sports seems to go to the already semi-famous

Sorry guys. There wasn't a whole lotta oversight before (on the high ends of football and men's basketball) but a kid could get kicked out of school for selling his jersey while huge deals were cut between AAU organizations, coaches ans shoe companies. Again, I think the "answer" went overboard but to think there wasn't some shady crap going on before....

@baseballhs posted:

Not in baseball…

everyone is full ride in football.

I can also tell you that some coaches are using NIL to get around scholarship requirements. They are offering NIL in the same amount as the scholarships but then there are no rules applied as to cancelling it.

University employees cannot offer any NIL money especially in scholarship incentives. They can contact their collective for help with the player getting NIL $$ and setting up a legal business.

@TPM posted:

University employees cannot offer any NIL money especially in scholarship incentives. They can contact their collective for help with the player getting NIL $$ and setting up a legal business.

Then it must not be happening.   And coaches like Mac Brown and others that have come out recently saying other coaches have contacted their players (who aren’t in the portal), must be mistaken.

Just because things aren’t legally allowed to happen doesn’t mean they don’t.

First it is NIL, Name Image Likeness.  NLI is what you sign as a contract.

NIL money is not getting a lot of kids to full rides.  My son works as hard as anyone on his legitimate NIL deals and is no where near a full ride.  He is a big contributor to the #1 team in the nation last year for most of the year and will come away owing about $60-70,000 after a good scholarship and some decent NIL stuff.  The legitimate NIL deals are not $10,000 for local businesses.  Those are the ones where a supporter is paying someone to play.  The real ones are closer to paying a player $250-400 to come sign autographs or 5% of net sales for your jerseys, caps, and hoodies.

I know the collectives are legal but they are also pay to play in most cases which is still illegal, but overlooked.  The problem is a lot of the collectives still give a large sum of their monies to football and basketball.

@baseballhs posted:

Then it must not be happening.   And coaches like Mac Brown and others that have come out recently saying other coaches have contacted their players (who aren’t in the portal), must be mistaken.

Just because things aren’t legally allowed to happen doesn’t mean they don’t.

You are right. Just because something isn’t legal doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. Just because you may not know about it doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. Rules have consistently been broken since the inception of college sports. Especially in football.

Interesting conversation... if dominated by John Ruiz. LifeWallet is one of the few companies that publishes many of their NIL deals.

https://youtu.be/UhuOY6x4WpA

Some of the deals below. Mostly football, but also baseball, golf, swimming, volleyball.

https://businessofcollegesport...illion-in-nil-deals/

Just read this today...

"North Carolina quarterback Drake Maye apparently received two offers worth $5 million each to transfer, according to University of Pittsburgh head coach Pat Narduzzi. Narduzzi made his comments Tuesday during an appearance on 93.7 The Fan's “The PM Team with Poni & Mueller.” “I heard $5 million,” Narduzzi said."

He's not even in the portal.

@cabbagedad posted:

Just read this today...

"North Carolina quarterback Drake Maye apparently received two offers worth $5 million each to transfer, according to University of Pittsburgh head coach Pat Narduzzi. Narduzzi made his comments Tuesday during an appearance on 93.7 The Fan's “The PM Team with Poni & Mueller.” “I heard $5 million,” Narduzzi said."

He's not even in the portal.

When an active roster player, who is not in the portal, is contacted and offered by other schools this is tampering. And it isn’t legal. But it’s most certainly happening.

Right, NIL, not NLI <sigh>... bad fingers, no cold beverage for you tonight ;-P

PTWood - you describe scenarios where sure the money seems "reasonable and justified" (regardless of F/M) compared to those "high profile players" getting millions. Do they really need that?  What purpose does it serve? Having read many of your posts, I have a decent assumption that you and I agree in principle. I'm not against getting NIL "the right way" and for what it was meant to do... IMO, not allow the college to 100% capitalize while also not allowing the player a chance to make money without great scrutiny and looming loss of eligibility for something you may not realize.

Props to PitchingFan for throwing some levity into a recent example from a high profile / successful program with a player that had his face shown and name said repeatedly on ESPN during their run...

I'm in the skeptics crowd about things being done "the right way". Crazy for a sport that has 11-14 games per year and less opportunity to actually *see* a face. I know it's the "small percentage" that get those absurd numbers, but eventually I believe economics will catch up.

@adbono posted:

When an active roster player, who is not in the portal, is contacted and offered by other schools this is tampering. And it isn’t legal. But it’s most certainly happening.

NCAA is powerful, but they aren't law enforcement. Tampering is a rule violation. The other part of the above example that sounds like a violation is the offers being tied to specific schools. "NIL compensation contingent upon enrollment at a particular school" is prohibited.

@MidAtlanticDad posted:

NCAA is powerful, but they aren't law enforcement. Tampering is a rule violation. The other part of the above example that sounds like a violation is the offers being tied to specific schools. "NIL compensation contingent upon enrollment at a particular school" is prohibited.

Fair enough. It’s a rule violation. But it’s a significant one. And one that should have consequences.

Several coaches have said there was tampering going on. It hoes on in baseball too. It’s just whether or not coaches will name names, which they likely will not.

@baseballhs posted:

Not in baseball…

everyone is full ride in football.

Well yes, but I would imagine most kids getting substantial NIL money in baseball are pretty close to not paying much.

I would also imagine that most baseball players aren't getting big money, just some spending money for the most part. The kids in our program getting NIL money are being thrown a few hundred here or there. For the most part it's like $100 for a few instagrams posts a semester.

@MidAtlanticDad posted:

There’s a lot more NLI money out there than just for headcount sports. I know of baseball guys on partial scholarships getting anywhere from $1,000 to $10,000 from local businesses like car dealerships. I also know some players from women’s sports with small deals like equipment endorsements. UNC has an independent exchange to help connect athletes and businesses, many of them are small local deals. I’m sure others schools have similar organizations.
https://www.tarheelblog.com/20...ls-nil-opportunities

I haven't found this to be true. If it is, good for them, I just don't believe there is enough money being passed around for players in non revenue driven sports to make a significant dent in student loan debt. I know quite a few kids currently in high level baseball programs, none are getting a few thousand for car dealership promotions.

Sure there is some nice spending money to be made promoting things here or there but at least in baseball I haven't heard of too many middle of the road scholarship players getting significant money. A few hundred here and there maybe a few thousand for season long deals or whatever but I have not heard of these guys getting money like football players.

We have some guys getting a few thousand a month from collectives and I know of one kid who is getting $1000 per post from a company. It is out there.

Regardless of what they were supposed to do, collectives now are simply organizations that collect donations from boosters and pay it out to athletes, in return for a few public service announcements.  Schools that don't have them are scrambling to set them up.  See:

https://www.si.com/college/202...e-nil-deal-nonprofit

Presumably what this means is that alumni will donate to collectives, rather than to the school.  And so, while perhaps helping the individual players, the schools themselves stand to lose donation money.  I would think that if that happens, that will be the biggest incentive for the NCAA to rein it in.

I honestly can't see a car dealership paying money to a local college baseball player to advertise cars at most schools.

You do NOT have to be an alumni to donate.  Many collectives are usually started by very wealthy businessmen and have a purpose.

I posted some info on how some collectives work.

@PABaseball posted:

I haven't found this to be true. If it is, good for them, I just don't believe there is enough money being passed around for players in non revenue driven sports to make a significant dent in student loan debt. I know quite a few kids currently in high level baseball programs, none are getting a few thousand for car dealership promotions.

Sure there is some nice spending money to be made promoting things here or there but at least in baseball I haven't heard of too many middle of the road scholarship players getting significant money. A few hundred here and there maybe a few thousand for season long deals or whatever but I have not heard of these guys getting money like football players.

I didn't say they were middle of the road guys. I didn't say they get football money. It's a few hundred or a few thousand dollars that they couldn't earn in the past. From link above.

Article in The Athletic about a quarterback whose NIL deal was pulled

https://theathletic.com/414918...6/jaden-rashada-nil/

Article basically says that the use of collective money was an inducement to recruiting, which violated NCAA rules, the contract itself said the contract could be voided if it broke NCAA rules.  Everyone presumably knew and winked at this.  Some quotes:

"The contract, which was obtained by The Athletic, would have paid him a staggering $13.85 million over four years, starting with a $500,000 payment on Dec. 5, in return for minimal NIL services such as posting on social media and autographing items."

"Rashada did not receive the [first] payment, and two days after it was due, the Gator Collective terminated the agreement in a letter sent to Rashada. No reason was given for the termination, according to three people who read the letter. The contract includes the following: “Collective may, in its sole and absolute discretion, terminate this Agreement…” and then lists several reasons the collective could immediately terminate the contract:

• If the contract is found to violate Florida law.
• If the contract is found to violate school rules or rules the school must follow (such as NCAA rules)."

@JohnF posted:

If we didn't keep hearing millions of dollars, I'd be less inclined to be skeptical about NLIs. What kid really needs that much to pay tuition?

First, these aren't kids these are adults who work full-time making millions in revenue for their de facto employers (soon to be de jure after another lawsuit or two).

Second, what coach really needs millions of dollars to pay the mortgage? As long as coaches are getting millions, there's no reason players shouldn't. In the pros a lot of players make more than the coaches. And yes, even in college baseball almost every SEC head coach is paid over $1 million/year.

@auberon posted:

First, these aren't kids these are adults who work full-time making millions in revenue for their de facto employers (soon to be de jure after another lawsuit or two).

Second, what coach really needs millions of dollars to pay the mortgage? As long as coaches are getting millions, there's no reason players shouldn't. In the pros a lot of players make more than the coaches. And yes, even in college baseball almost every SEC head coach is paid over $1 million/year.

Adults in the eyes of being 18, yes by law I suppose...  At least you're admitting their sport is full time and school is a secondary concern and those high NLIs are not for tuition... So why not go directly to the "working world"? Because "most" pro leagues have certain requirements that stem from years of experience and a strong desire to keep their collegiate "farm system" viable. IOW, they're "adult enough" to realize they don't want to babysit some 18-19 year old (generalities here, there are exceptions) and they need the system in place even though the exception is hard to "pass up". The Lebron James' of the world are rarities and more often than not the gems wash out for one reason or another.

w.r.t. your second point - is there a coach in the SEC (or any major college program or professional team for that matter) that just graduated high school and gets that kind of coin without first proving themselves?  Read a story recently about UNC Field Hockey which hired a just graduated player, but I think you can admit it's not the same.

I agree no coach "needs" millions of dollars to pay the mortgage. Are banks willing to underwrite a mortgage to someone that just graduated high school without some amount of work history and ability to pay over the 10, 15, 20, 30 years that the mortgage gets written? Apples and oranges type comparison. "Today" 1-mil may cover the cost of the mortgage, but banks have learned that doesn't mean anyone is going to pay their mortgage first before perhaps enjoying themselves instead leaving the bank (and others in this world quite frankly) on the hook. If the house is trashed because the younger adult didn't really value the property, then what?

If your argument is colleges shouldn't be "using" the athlete(s) to make bank, I have some agreement here - it doesn't equate to millions though. But let's face it, they put a lot of money into it, they do need some ROI.  Why choose the SEC? For education or sport? They've built up their sport and brand thru years, it's not cheap. Stop thinking in terms of whats in it for me and I should get reimbursed for choosing to go to your school because my child is so awesome. If you've followed this forum long enough you'll understand the axiom of your child is the next greatest thing while they're being recruited. After that, the coach is looking for the next greatest thing and pointing out to your child who that next recruit is that will take his/her place. Just like what happened when your child was recruited. It's a self fulfilling prophecy / cycle.