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Travel Ball nightmare

RonBonRonBon100+ posts
We have 4 games left in the most expensive lesson I have ever learned.

We paid $1500 plus uniform. Which was $235.

That gave us 9 tournaments plus a nationals.

It was supposed to include two paid coaches, practice field rental, indoor rental, and game balls.

Both coaches had Minor league experience and promised to teach what the scouts would be looking for in the near future. Their practices were impressive.

Before even the first tournament one coach quit to take a minor league hitting instruction position. The second coach, who is the club owner by the way, brought in another coach to help with the first tournament. After that tournament, he turned the team over to him stating he had two other teams he had to coach and since the other guy left he would need to dedicate his time to the other teams.

The new guy had coached this age group for the club the year before and they were very successful. They were having to start a new team since the club moved cities and no one followed from the team. The parents took it in stride as they had confidence in him.

He quickly changed a few player's positons as he felt they fit better somewhere else. That upset a few of those parents. I see both sides of that.

I am our team administrator and the owner asked me to help with the younger of the two other teams as they did not have anyone with experience. I became aware that they are paying him double the amount we were.

It also became apparent that the coach\owner would not be coming back out to help. So we were basically paying for a coach we were not getting. When asked we were told that we were paying a club fee for paid coaching and that it did not say in our contract how many coaches. So basically what they were saying and what was written were two different things.

The contract also stated the fee covered one practice a week. The new coach wanted to practice twice a week. The parents agreed as we thought once was not enough anyhow. The kicker here is that we now had to pay extra for the additonal practice. We had fundraised some money so we agreed to use it to pay for the second practice.

By mid-season it had become apparent that the kids who were taking private lessons from one of the two coaches were recieving preferential treatment. You'll see other posts by me about short stop. First base and Left Field were an issue as well. An example would be the kid with the worst batting average\On Base percentage\Slugging percentage was batting second and the kid who leads the team in strike outs by almost double the next kid was batting third. I was told by the coach during an obvious weak moment that the owner was requesting that "his players" play certain positions. Since he did not agree with one of them he vented to me about it.

This coach was also easily swayed by parent's complaints. Parents who complained saw their kids moved to the positions they asked for and those who did not were left to fill the others. I know one parent went over to the dugout and told the coach to play their son at first base in the next inning and he did. The two dads he asked him to help coach say he asks them to fill out the lineup as he doesn't want to mess with it anymore.


After a hard tournament and some tough loses the coach tells a few of the dads in the parking lot that he didn't pick this team and he is just riding out the season until the next try outs in the fall.

Now, at the end of the season, they have picked up two kids that were advertised as "Pitching help for nationals". Both of whom have yet to pitch after two tournaments and half way through nationals. They took spots and playing time from a couple kids who had been here all season. One of those kids quit the team before nationals as he sat three straight games in the last tournament. The entire game in a all three. ...and he was one of our pitchers!

Those two new set of parents have made no secret of their intentions to be on the team next season.

This past weekend I see our coach bumming some game balls off of a coach in the parking lot. Now that is down right embarassing. We paid for game balls!

The parents have all turned on each other and no more than three sets of parents are on talking terms. Talk about tention in the bleachers!!

I have been approached by the coach and told that they are putting together a hand picked team of major caliber players and they want my son on this team. I have no intention of returning to this mess but have not lead them to believe that for fear of the ramifications to my son. They said they only intend to bring my son and one other player back. Funny though, neither of us take lessons from them. I just can't see them cutting off that revenue stream.

There is so much more detail I could give but did not want to go on for ever.
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fanofgamefanofgame5,000+ posts
Sorry to hear about this but it is not uncommon. there are a lot of organizations that are in it just for the money. As you stated kids playing that are taking lessons, that happens a lot. there are good teams out there where coaches do it for the right reasons.ride the season out and find something else for your son.
Tough situation when a organization is charging players and then you expect them to play the best players but then what happens to the players that are not very good? they paid also.evryone pays everyone plays will never produce a quality team that wins top level tournaments.
The better organizations that win high level tournaments also have been accused of bringing in pitchers that sometimes dont pay and pitch to win while other pitchers sit.Travel baseball is tough.
My son has been on several teams and some are good and others are not.One of the biggest problems i see is that most parents think their player is one of the best and no matter stats or errors made they still will think that.
There is a lot of money to be made by these type of parents by these types of organizations. When someone tells you your player is a D1 guy and he really wants him on this travel team and promises him the stars, guess what hes probably telling every paretn and player about the same thing.And the player thinks the coach thinks the world of him. Its a tough situation and I am glad to be moving on from that aspect of baseball.
to me have someone evaluate your player that really will give you a REAL eval. as tough as it might be if its not what you think of your son and then find a team that meets his level. It might not be a top national team or whatever but a team where he will play and everything is done according to abilities and not the amt. of check you can write. PG showcases give good evals. college coaches really look at those. go to those, thats what i would do if i was doing it over. get an eval. talk to the org. find out how to get better, what we need to work on, place on a team that wants him and will play him and life goes on. Not all of our kids are going to top baseball schools out of highschool, and once parents can accept that there is a place for most to play if they have the work ethic, some talent and are good students.
What is the purpose of travel ball? why do parents do it? to get their players on top teams in the hopes of them playing college ball and if anyone says they are not doing it for that reason I call uncle.
RonBonRonBon100+ posts
Here's how I plan to approach the next team:

I have been contacted by a team about son. We played against them in two games.

I have asked two current parents, one former parent, and an opposing coach their opinions. I asked about all coaches, I asked about the club, the facilities, the management. The fees involved previously and any talk of the future costs. How are their practices run? How are players positioned and moved? How do the coaches handle game situations?

I have observed a tense hard fought game that ended in a tie. I watched the coaches, AND the parents.

I did all this while avoiding the pending contact with the head coach.

While meeting with the coach I told him I would not discuss my desires for my son until he had evaluated him and gave me his opinion. I did not want to influence him in anyway. He thought that was a great idea.

I can't take another year like this one and I'm afraid neither can my son.
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
Do us all a favor and sue the head guy for breach of contract. At a minimum, he should have to make restitution to the team parents for whatever amounts he netted to himself, due to his failure to keep his end of the bargain.

I don't care if he picked the team or not. If you make specific promises, and the people to whom you make those promises pay you the exact amount of money you requested in exchange for those promises, then you have to keep your promises or else face the consequences. If one of your employees quits, you have to take steps to assure that the team experience remains what you promised.

It's not just baseball, it's a services contract, and the law applies here just as it does anywhere else in the universe. There is no baseball exception to contract law.

Too bad you're not here in VA, it'd be fun to represent you pro bono. Nothing like getting served with 12 separate small claims court cases to get your attention!
Last edited by Midlo Dad
fanofgamefanofgame5,000+ posts
RonBon,
Sounds like your doing your research.there are good teams out there. And it was smart to let coach evaluate son. If the team looked good in the games and parents seem content it may be a good team. Most travel teams have disgruntled parents it goes with the territory. If your son is good he should get himself into the lineup if its being done the right way.good luck
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Was this for pre high school? What is the benefit of spending that in pre high school? What did that include, just tourney fees and coaching from ex professionals?
Just for your information a few years ago this happened around here and I think that the guy got in lots of trouble. He took over one of the best travel team programs in our area. That operated as a legal business in Florida. I helped one the former owner who told me it took a small fortune to carry the team over a summer, what was not covered under the amount of 2500 per player for summer was raised through donations or fund raising. The cost covered all uniforms, all tourney fees, unmpire fees, plane fair to Omaha during the CWS, all bus transportation and hotels, hotels were first class, all meals on the road (kids never needed money except for extra pocket change) and meals during double headers and frequently out of his pocket, lunch after a tough win or loss.
I am not sure what transpired when the other person took over the team, but sitting one night at a FAU game with friends, a mother told me that there were lots of parents who felt that they didn't get what they had paid for that summer and were going after the man who had run the program. Lots of money up front with having to pay for things during the summer that was supposed to be included in the fee.
L larrythompson500+ posts
Sorry to hear this. I was wondering the same thing that TPM asked. How old are these kids?

The best teams I have seen in MD over the past 20 years are the teams that are coached by former players or high school coaches who don't take a dime to coach the team. They do it because they love it and they get satisfaction on seeing players and the team reach their potential. They somehow work it out with their employers so that they can attend every practice, game and tournament from Memorial Day to mid-August. Many of these clubs have coaches who don't have kids on the team. Many of these clubs started out as fledgling organizations, but stuck with it long enough to prove themselves and attract quality talent. These teams send their summer schedule and rosters to dozens of colleges within driving distance and follow up with emails/phone calls to the coaches asking them to come see the club. These teams don't focus on the exposure aspect of baseball. They leave that for fall ball or the occasional tournament during the summer season. The coaches attend clinics in Cherry Hill, NJ or other locations. They line and water the field. They mow the lawn. They clean out the dugouts after the game. They try and schedule top quality competition and practice once in a while on an off night.

To sum it up...I have seen coaching youth baseball turn into a big time business in the past 15 years with some organizations. I know this works out for many young people, but I'd venture to say that for each success story, you have a train wreck like was described above.
FungoFungoHighly Regarded and Beloved Old Timer
I'm not at all surprised. Money has really altered youth baseball into many things other than just a game of baseball. Camps, showcases, travel teams, select teams, affiliations, tournaments, bats, gloves, gimmicks, gadgets, private lessons, lists, rankings, scouting services, and recruiting services all have someone thinking of more ways to make more money and a host of parents willing and actually wanting to spend more money to elevate their son's game to a higher level. It's a hoot!

As I type this post I'm setting in a hotel in Estes Park, Colorado. Youth baseball’s change is much like the change that has happened at Estes Park over the years. At one time a gem of nature with pristine streams and lakes nestled in a valley of summer snow capped peaks. Money has eroded the simplistic beauty of nature into traffic jams, condos, go cart tracks and shops full of souvenirs of Estes Park ---- made in China of course (better profit margins).
Fungo
Last edited by Fungo
D Doughnutman1,000+ posts
Familiar story in AZ too. 13U son was invited to a 13U scout team tryout. After I was done laughing about the scout issue, I saw it was invite only and we had the weekend off, so what the heck, we went. Dman junior likes to show off and I think going to tryouts will make it easier when he tryouts for HS.

We knew most of the 20 some kids that were there. All very good local players. Typical tryout. They started talking about the money aspect and I was turned off. We tried it for a month because my son wanted to play with those guys then we left.

Guess how many kids made the team? All of them. Can you say money maker? I think they are down to 11 kids.
Frozen Ropes GMFrozen Ropes GM1,000+ posts
I've been doing this for a long time in the Dallas area and have found that there are good and bad aspects to almost every organization. Always do your homework as RonBon has done and be sure to ask for the number of a couple of players that have quit the team....any coach worth his salt will give them to you.

For many years my organization only had one 18U team and one 16U team. Both teams were established to teach the players, to get exposure for the players, and to succeed in AABC play at the State, Regional and National levels. We did exactly that and did it relatively cheaply. No one could questions our motives. For two summers earlier in this decade we added a 16U B team and an 18U B team in order to develop more players that we simply could not fit onto our top 16U or 18U teams. Our best coaches were with the contender teams and we did not want to water those teams down to distribute the coaching....so we added more coaches. IMO these non-contender teams were a failure. We could not offer the same level of coaching, the same level of exposure nor the same level of accomplishment as the older teams at those age levels. It just couldn't be done. From 2005 on we decided to only have two or three teams in the entire DBAT organization: DBAT 18, DBAT 17 & DBAT 16. All three were serious national contender teams that we could focus our goals upon. We have had great success with none of the complaints that I am reading about here. As they say...everyone loves a winner. All of that and aside from coaches being paid....no one made a nickel off of those teams. Quite to the contrary, the team's General Manager and the owners of DBAT were out a considerable amount of their own money on those teams.

In their rush to get their son on a 'select' team many parents overlook the fact that Little Johnny is not on the #1 team of that org. Therein lies the problem. The best orgs rarely have multiple teams at any pure age group. Many so-called select programs in our area have multiple teams at each level and logic should tell you that only so many of those teams are considered by that org to be teams that will contend for a legitimate title. The rest are sluffed off to some spare coach all the while raking in the same player fees that the 'contender' team's players are paying. Some of the also-ran teams of the org are there simply to make money for someone at the top or to sometimes offset the cost of providing scholarship players for their 'contender' teams.....players that are not even paying a dime to play in that organization.

So beware the organizations that have multiple teams at any given age level. Ask specifically at tryouts if there will be teams such as XYZ Muckdogs 14U Blue & XYZ Muckdogs 14U Red. One of those teams will usually be good (or at least try to be) and the other will be putting money in someone's pocket while taking all comers. Just because the XYZ Muckdogs 12U Black won the 2008 Super Dooper World Series does not mean that all teams in that org are the same. Trust me....they are not. Many organizations market their best team to bring in players for their profit-making also-ran teams.

Also fear the group that charges additionally for instruction....everyone knows the players on the top team in any organization get their instruction for free from their coaches. If they want you to pay for instruction/coaching on top of the team fee, well, that's because your cash is their lifeline....and because you are willing to do it.

You DO NOT have to pay thousands of dollars annually to play great baseball.....especially pre-high school!!!

Keep in mind, the parents on the good teams of an organization don't usually complain because their son has it good. They might even defend the org or paint you a rosy picture because they probably don't know what it is like to have a son play on one of the also-ran teams of that org. Do your homework on the whole organization, the team your son is to be placed on, the head coach of that team and their goals. Then try to sort through the BS to make an educated decision.

Good luck!
Last edited by Frozen Ropes GM
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
I don't belive a person needs to beware of organizations with multiple teams at each level. They just need to understand these teams exist and why. My daughter came though a softball program with A and B teams from 12U to 16U, then only A at 18U/G. The organization was very up front one was an A team and one was a B. The money did not cross. The A team was far more expensive to be on due to the travel.

There are a couple of baseball programs I'm looking into for my son for next year with two teams. Both programs are A and B with different pricing.

Before choosing a team talk to people who have been there and done it. Watch the team play. See how they play, how well coached they are and how the coaching staff acts.

Before the teen years I wouldn't spend a lot of money on travel baseball.
Last edited by RJM
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by RonBon:
Both coaches had Minor league experience and promised to teach what the scouts would be looking for in the near future. Their practices were impressive.


RonBon,
Do appreciate your very honest post, and I am sorry that this experience didn't work out for you. Some may disagree, but scouts really don't go looking until HS comes around and they all realize that most players at that age still have developing and learning to do.

I just can't see this at 11. Fungo is a wise Old Timer, read what he has posted, a few times.

I may be old school, but young players need to learn what is age appropriate. The seperation really begins when tehy begin playing on teh bigger field. Until then, they should be having fun. Baseball does keep them busy and out of trouble and tired at the end of the day. I realize that costs have increased, but even now, I wouldn't spend that on my 11 year old for a summer travel team. I do not see the purpose, although I know that some may.

You want your son to learn more about how to play the game at a higher level, spend time watching a game, ML, minor league, any college team. At 11 my son was soaking up every game you could find and he learned a lot by observing. Then he used that time with good coaches who coached for nothing to put it to practice.... with imprinted colored t-shirts and pants that maybe cost less then 20 dollars. For that price we could get a few. Big Grin
I feel for some of you, the pressure that's placed upon you to feel the need to spend this for your players to be better players while so young. I am posting this because I want parents who really can't afford this to know, as GM has stated, you do no have to spend A small fortune to play good baseball, especially at 11. When your sons reach HS, perhaps college and still playing you'll understand.

As always, classy post Fungo!
fillsfanfillsfan1,000+ posts
Only when our sons get older do we realize how little it matters what team he played on when he was 11. I think at that age we are all more likely to be impressed when a coach or team "recruits" our kid.
Half of the kids at 11 will not be playing by 15 and the star at 11 may not be the star at 15 or 16, let alone 18.
Find a place where he can learn and get better without all of the other nonsense to distract him from the game and you from your money.
If your son is a star at 15 then look for the team where he can get good coaching and good exposure.
M Metropop10+ posts
The blueprint for success seems to be alleviating the financial strain on parents through donations and fundraisers.

There are so many creative ways to raise money other than carwashes etc... One guy around here asked how many parents paid for lawn service and there were a few hands raised. He proposed that the kids volunteer to do the mowing and that money be used for team expense. Killed two birds with one stone and ended up raising enough money to cover league fees plus a few tourney expenses.
FungoFungoHighly Regarded and Beloved Old Timer
quote:
Only when our sons get older do we realize how little it matters what team he played on when he was 11.

Depends on what you're looking for. I basically disagree with that statement. In my opinion it is just as important at 11 as it is at 25. I think we get so caught up in seeking "the next level" that we forget the most important time in our son's baseball is TODAY --- no matter how old he is. I know yesterday's games are history and I'll be the first to admit the little dirty faced kid couldn't hit college pitching but I can tell you that my son's experiences when he was eleven was as rewarding to him and to the our family as his years of playing college and pro ball. The team(s) the teammates, and the experiences have to be as important for the 11 year old as they are at 20 years old so IMHO those teams are JUST as important.
Fungo
RonBonRonBon100+ posts
Based on recent posts, I think I need to clarify something.

I did not post this as an indictment against travel ball. In fact, I'm 100% in favor of travel ball. I was just trying to impart an experience that might help others avoid my mistake.

My son has been very successfull the last couple years at travel ball and we were just trying to step up to a higher level. We did not get what we paid for but we will move on. Smarter from the experience.
westcoastbuckeyewestcoastbuckeye100+ posts
Ronbon
1500$ is quite expensive,my son`s team cost 625$
plus game/practice uniforms 150$ that is 10 tourneys
clinics,pracice fields,insurance,registration etc.
Great coach,wonderful parents only 11 full time
players and plenty of playing time.
My only complaint is team named after USC,diehard
Buckeye fan,but at least the team is`nt named the
wolverines.
C CapitalBaseball100+ posts
quote:

To sum it up...I have seen coaching youth baseball turn into a big time business in the past 15 years with some organizations. I know this works out for many young people, but I'd venture to say that for each success story, you have a train wreck like was described above.


Larry:

I was going to add my two-cents, however, after reading your response you've said it all very well.

Dear RonBon:

Welcome to the world of out-of-control (12 and under) youth sports and their delusional parents.
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
quote:
Originally posted by CapitalBaseball:

Welcome to the world of out-of-control (12 and under) youth sports and their delusional parents.
A world where parents are sure it's their kid going D1 even though he hasn't played on the 60/90 field yet and they've never seen a D1 game live. A world were if the Jones spend $1,000 on baseball for their kid the Smiths think they have to spend $1,200 on their kid. I'm coaching 16U now. There are still plenty of delusional parents to go around.
fillsfanfillsfan1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Fungo:
quote:
Only when our sons get older do we realize how little it matters what team he played on when he was 11.

Depends on what you're looking for. I basically disagree with that statement. In my opinion it is just as important at 11 as it is at 25. I think we get so caught up in seeking "the next level" that we forget the most important time in our son's baseball is TODAY --- no matter how old he is. I know yesterday's games are history and I'll be the first to admit the little dirty faced kid couldn't hit college pitching but I can tell you that my son's experiences when he was eleven was as rewarding to him and to the our family as his years of playing college and pro ball. The team(s) the teammates, and the experiences have to be as important for the 11 year old as they are at 20 years old so IMHO those teams are JUST as important.
Fungo


Fungo,
Late response but I have been away for a while, baseball of course.
I was not refering to the experiences of the kids when I said it didn't matter where they played at 11. I was refering to the level at which he plays not doesn't really matter. Your statement actually agrees with what I believe. It is more important for the kid to have fun and created pleasant memories at the younger ages. The more fun he has the more he wil want to play and the better he will get.
Searching year to year for a "top notch" travel team may have the opposite results.
My main point is that when a player tries out for a high level team at 14-17 the coaches aren't going to ask him where he played at 11. It is totally irrelevant.

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