Tufts University

JCG posted:

I am sorry things didn't work out for your son, but for anyone reading, JV programs serve a purpose, $$$$$ for the school. Very rarely will a player perfectly move up to the VA team.

That's an important point when looking at many schools, but not a school like Tufts.  With a 14% acceptance rate., they don't need JV baseball to put paying customers in the classroom.

Yes and no. 42% are receiving financial aid that averages 32K. I'll bet there's a sliding scale where a kid who "might" help an athletic team and is paying most of his own way might get some preference.

RJM posted:

JCG posted:

I am sorry things didn't work out for your son, but for anyone reading, JV programs serve a purpose, $$$$$ for the school. Very rarely will a player perfectly move up to the VA team.

That's an important point when looking at many schools, but not a school like Tufts.  With a 14% acceptance rate., they don't need JV baseball to put paying customers in the classroom.

Yes and no. 42% are receiving financial aid that averages 32K. I'll bet there's a sliding scale where a kid who "might" help an athletic team and is paying most of his own way might get some preference.

I agree.

Question though, was the player asked to apply ED?

I have to say, after dealing with NESCACs all summer, fall and even a little this winter, I had no idea that Tufts even had a JV team!   Do any of the other NESCAC schools also have a JV team?  On that note, do any of the other known over recruiting high academic D3s have them too??  This is NOT publicized so would be informative to know more....

Twoboys, which high academic schools are you thinking of that over recruit?  Just wondering the same as you.  Amherst does not have a JV.

Would you consider 41 on a roster over recruiting? There's no way to know if they cut down to 41.

http://www.hopkinssports.com/s...op-m-basebl-mtt.html

Would 43 on a roster be considered over recruiting? How many were cut to get to 43?

http://www.goaugie.com/roster.aspx?path=baseball

I know this has been about Tufts and D3 schools, but FIU has 29 commits for class of 2017 on PG website....so either Melendez is cleaning house or he's over-recruiting (IMO)...29!

Added info re: Amherst...38 guys on the 2016 roster, 32 with uniform numbers and Coach is very clear that the travel squad will be much smaller (approx 25)

RJM posted:

Golfman25 posted:

RJM posted:

old_school posted:

Tufts is one of the sacred cows on this site...say something negative at your own risk!

 

Yeah, go figure ...

Tufts University head coach John Casey, now in his 34th season, is one of the most respected leaders in collegiate baseball.

Coach Casey served as President of the American Baseball Coaches Association (ABCA) for 2016. A member of the ABCA's leadership team for several years, he ascended to the Presidency after serving as a Vice President for four years. He is a member of the ABCA Board of Directors.

On the field, Coach Casey's Jumbos earned one of their most successful seasons in 2016. Tufts advanced further than any New England team in the NCAA Regionals, reaching the championship round before falling to eventual national runner-up Keystone College. Tufts won the 2016 New England Small College Athletic Conference (NESCAC) Championship and their 35-8 final record was the most wins for a season in program history.

Since 2010, Tufts has earned four NCAA berths and won three NESCAC titles under Coach Casey. The Jumbos won back-to-back conference crowns and earned #1 seeds at the 2010 and 2011 NCAA New England Regional Tournaments. They returned to the NCAA Tournament in 2014. The program has received six national berths and won four conference titles during Coach Casey’s tenure overall. Tufts captured its eighth NESCAC East Division pennant last spring and hosted the conference championship.

The 2014 Jumbos presented Coach Casey with the 600th victory of his career, a 5-1 win at Bowdoin on April 27 of that season. He was the 43rd coach in NCAA Div. III Baseball history to reach the 600 wins milestone and the seventh among New England Division III mentors. A 1980 Tufts graduate, Casey has directed the Jumbos for 33 seasons at his alma mater and amassed a 669-385-4 record. He is 17th among active coaches and 36th all-time for Division III coaching victories.

Casey's teams have featured five players who signed professionally and several All-Americans. Randy Newsom, a 2004 Tufts graduate, signed with the Boston Red Sox. He was traded to Cleveland as part of a deal for Coco Crisp, and he advanced to the Indians’ Triple A affiliate in Buffalo. Pitcher Jeff Taglienti and outfielder Dan Callahan are also Jumbos coached by Casey who were drafted by Major League organizations. Last spring, pitcher Speros Varinos was honored as an All-American and Northeast Pitcher of the Year by D3baseball.com.

Tufts players have also been recognized for their academic achievement and commitment to community service during Casey’s tenure. Catcher Bryan Egan, a 2015 graduate, and shortstop Scott Staniewicz, a 2013 graduate, were named to the Capital One Academic All-America® Division III Baseball Teams. The team holds an annual 100 inning charity game supporting Homes for Our Troops among its many community service activities.

In November 1999, Coach Casey was inducted into the Hall of Fame of the Boston Park League, the oldest amateur baseball league in the country. In 2000, the New England Intercollegiate Baseball Association (NEIBA) presented him the Jack Butterfield Award, its most prestigious honor. He received the Andy Baylock Distinguished Service Award from the NEIBA in 2005. Casey was promoted to Assistant Athletics Director at Tufts in 2001.

As an undergraduate, he helped pitch the Jumbos to consecutive ECAC Division II-III Tournament appearances. Also a tight end on 1979’s undefeated football team, he returned to Tufts a year later as a baseball and football assistant. He replaced Lee Sargent as head baseball coach in 1984. The program has recorded 25 winning seasons during his tenure.

Several former players and assistant coaches under Casey are now successful coaches at the college or high school level. Paul Svagdis, a 1993 graduate, guided Azusa Pacific University to two straight NAIA College World Series berths recently. Jamie Pinzino, a 1997 Tufts graduate, is the associated head coach at Virginia Tech. Former assistant coach Jason Tower is now the head coach at Roger Williams.

Ok.  But to the ends justify the means? 

Ends justify the means? Is there a college coach in any sport at any level who hasn't cut a kid? Nothing is guaranteed. The only thing guarantee is getting on the field in fall ball freshman year. Yes, some players get more opportunity than others. But if a player doesn't recognize the situation when he's being recruited he's not being true to himself.

If a kid doesn't feel he got a chance it's because he wasn't high on the recruiting list. It's just the way it is. It was up to him and his parents to recognize this during the process. With the exception of the top shelf, jaw dropping studs who could have signed out of high school every player is taking a leap of faith. 

This is just me. But if I were a D3 player sent to JV for a second season I would have given up college baseball (still play in the summer) or transferred. At a NESCAC I probably would have stayed at the school.

This is the root of the problem here.  How does one know if a coach is BSing a recruit?  Especially with D3 where no "love" (money) is involved.  With D1 scholarship schools at least there is are rules - a certain dollar amount spread over a certain number of players.  And there can only be so many players.  There are several discussion about the risks of a "preferred" walk on -- when they find out 20 kids have been "preferred" for a few spots.  Well D3 is similar, isn't it?  Unlimited rosters and JV teams.  Coaches can say a lot to get you to school, but what is the truth?  How do you judge a coach's honesty?  Is he a man of his word?  Really, what is to stop a coach from "offering" 20 plus players each year by saying whatever he has to and than sorting out the 5 or 6 who can play after school starts? 

SanDiegoRealist posted:

I know this has been about Tufts and D3 schools, but FIU has 29 commits for class of 2017 on PG website....so either Melendez is cleaning house or he's over-recruiting (IMO)...29!

FIU is D1 so it does not have anything to do with the discussion.  About 15 are seniors and I am assuming he will clean house after this year.  As far as the PG commit list, that's  probably a commit list only, not necessarily all scholarship signers.

Golfman25 posted:

RJM posted:

Golfman25 posted:

RJM posted:

old_school posted:

Tufts is one of the sacred cows on this site...say something negative at your own risk!

 

Yeah, go figure ...

Tufts University head coach John Casey, now in his 34th season, is one of the most respected leaders in collegiate baseball.

Coach Casey served as President of the American Baseball Coaches Association (ABCA) for 2016. A member of the ABCA's leadership team for several years, he ascended to the Presidency after serving as a Vice President for four years. He is a member of the ABCA Board of Directors.

On the field, Coach Casey's Jumbos earned one of their most successful seasons in 2016. Tufts advanced further than any New England team in the NCAA Regionals, reaching the championship round before falling to eventual national runner-up Keystone College. Tufts won the 2016 New England Small College Athletic Conference (NESCAC) Championship and their 35-8 final record was the most wins for a season in program history.

Since 2010, Tufts has earned four NCAA berths and won three NESCAC titles under Coach Casey. The Jumbos won back-to-back conference crowns and earned #1 seeds at the 2010 and 2011 NCAA New England Regional Tournaments. They returned to the NCAA Tournament in 2014. The program has received six national berths and won four conference titles during Coach Casey’s tenure overall. Tufts captured its eighth NESCAC East Division pennant last spring and hosted the conference championship.

The 2014 Jumbos presented Coach Casey with the 600th victory of his career, a 5-1 win at Bowdoin on April 27 of that season. He was the 43rd coach in NCAA Div. III Baseball history to reach the 600 wins milestone and the seventh among New England Division III mentors. A 1980 Tufts graduate, Casey has directed the Jumbos for 33 seasons at his alma mater and amassed a 669-385-4 record. He is 17th among active coaches and 36th all-time for Division III coaching victories.

Casey's teams have featured five players who signed professionally and several All-Americans. Randy Newsom, a 2004 Tufts graduate, signed with the Boston Red Sox. He was traded to Cleveland as part of a deal for Coco Crisp, and he advanced to the Indians’ Triple A affiliate in Buffalo. Pitcher Jeff Taglienti and outfielder Dan Callahan are also Jumbos coached by Casey who were drafted by Major League organizations. Last spring, pitcher Speros Varinos was honored as an All-American and Northeast Pitcher of the Year by D3baseball.com.

Tufts players have also been recognized for their academic achievement and commitment to community service during Casey’s tenure. Catcher Bryan Egan, a 2015 graduate, and shortstop Scott Staniewicz, a 2013 graduate, were named to the Capital One Academic All-America® Division III Baseball Teams. The team holds an annual 100 inning charity game supporting Homes for Our Troops among its many community service activities.

In November 1999, Coach Casey was inducted into the Hall of Fame of the Boston Park League, the oldest amateur baseball league in the country. In 2000, the New England Intercollegiate Baseball Association (NEIBA) presented him the Jack Butterfield Award, its most prestigious honor. He received the Andy Baylock Distinguished Service Award from the NEIBA in 2005. Casey was promoted to Assistant Athletics Director at Tufts in 2001.

As an undergraduate, he helped pitch the Jumbos to consecutive ECAC Division II-III Tournament appearances. Also a tight end on 1979’s undefeated football team, he returned to Tufts a year later as a baseball and football assistant. He replaced Lee Sargent as head baseball coach in 1984. The program has recorded 25 winning seasons during his tenure.

Several former players and assistant coaches under Casey are now successful coaches at the college or high school level. Paul Svagdis, a 1993 graduate, guided Azusa Pacific University to two straight NAIA College World Series berths recently. Jamie Pinzino, a 1997 Tufts graduate, is the associated head coach at Virginia Tech. Former assistant coach Jason Tower is now the head coach at Roger Williams.

Ok.  But to the ends justify the means? 

Ends justify the means? Is there a college coach in any sport at any level who hasn't cut a kid? Nothing is guaranteed. The only thing guarantee is getting on the field in fall ball freshman year. Yes, some players get more opportunity than others. But if a player doesn't recognize the situation when he's being recruited he's not being true to himself.

If a kid doesn't feel he got a chance it's because he wasn't high on the recruiting list. It's just the way it is. It was up to him and his parents to recognize this during the process. With the exception of the top shelf, jaw dropping studs who could have signed out of high school every player is taking a leap of faith. 

This is just me. But if I were a D3 player sent to JV for a second season I would have given up college baseball (still play in the summer) or transferred. At a NESCAC I probably would have stayed at the school.

This is the root of the problem here.  How does one know if a coach is BSing a recruit?  Especially with D3 where no "love" (money) is involved.  With D1 scholarship schools at least there is are rules - a certain dollar amount spread over a certain number of players.  And there can only be so many players.  There are several discussion about the risks of a "preferred" walk on -- when they find out 20 kids have been "preferred" for a few spots.  Well D3 is similar, isn't it?  Unlimited rosters and JV teams.  Coaches can say a lot to get you to school, but what is the truth?  How do you judge a coach's honesty?  Is he a man of his word?  Really, what is to stop a coach from "offering" 20 plus players each year by saying whatever he has to and than sorting out the 5 or 6 who can play after school starts? 

Once again, we don't know the full story, and stay away from walk on opportunities.

Golfman25 posted:

RJM posted:

Golfman25 posted:

RJM posted:

old_school posted:

Tufts is one of the sacred cows on this site...say something negative at your own risk!

 

Yeah, go figure ...

Tufts University head coach John Casey, now in his 34th season, is one of the most respected leaders in collegiate baseball.

Coach Casey served as President of the American Baseball Coaches Association (ABCA) for 2016. A member of the ABCA's leadership team for several years, he ascended to the Presidency after serving as a Vice President for four years. He is a member of the ABCA Board of Directors.

On the field, Coach Casey's Jumbos earned one of their most successful seasons in 2016. Tufts advanced further than any New England team in the NCAA Regionals, reaching the championship round before falling to eventual national runner-up Keystone College. Tufts won the 2016 New England Small College Athletic Conference (NESCAC) Championship and their 35-8 final record was the most wins for a season in program history.

Since 2010, Tufts has earned four NCAA berths and won three NESCAC titles under Coach Casey. The Jumbos won back-to-back conference crowns and earned #1 seeds at the 2010 and 2011 NCAA New England Regional Tournaments. They returned to the NCAA Tournament in 2014. The program has received six national berths and won four conference titles during Coach Casey’s tenure overall. Tufts captured its eighth NESCAC East Division pennant last spring and hosted the conference championship.

The 2014 Jumbos presented Coach Casey with the 600th victory of his career, a 5-1 win at Bowdoin on April 27 of that season. He was the 43rd coach in NCAA Div. III Baseball history to reach the 600 wins milestone and the seventh among New England Division III mentors. A 1980 Tufts graduate, Casey has directed the Jumbos for 33 seasons at his alma mater and amassed a 669-385-4 record. He is 17th among active coaches and 36th all-time for Division III coaching victories.

Casey's teams have featured five players who signed professionally and several All-Americans. Randy Newsom, a 2004 Tufts graduate, signed with the Boston Red Sox. He was traded to Cleveland as part of a deal for Coco Crisp, and he advanced to the Indians’ Triple A affiliate in Buffalo. Pitcher Jeff Taglienti and outfielder Dan Callahan are also Jumbos coached by Casey who were drafted by Major League organizations. Last spring, pitcher Speros Varinos was honored as an All-American and Northeast Pitcher of the Year by D3baseball.com.

Tufts players have also been recognized for their academic achievement and commitment to community service during Casey’s tenure. Catcher Bryan Egan, a 2015 graduate, and shortstop Scott Staniewicz, a 2013 graduate, were named to the Capital One Academic All-America® Division III Baseball Teams. The team holds an annual 100 inning charity game supporting Homes for Our Troops among its many community service activities.

In November 1999, Coach Casey was inducted into the Hall of Fame of the Boston Park League, the oldest amateur baseball league in the country. In 2000, the New England Intercollegiate Baseball Association (NEIBA) presented him the Jack Butterfield Award, its most prestigious honor. He received the Andy Baylock Distinguished Service Award from the NEIBA in 2005. Casey was promoted to Assistant Athletics Director at Tufts in 2001.

As an undergraduate, he helped pitch the Jumbos to consecutive ECAC Division II-III Tournament appearances. Also a tight end on 1979’s undefeated football team, he returned to Tufts a year later as a baseball and football assistant. He replaced Lee Sargent as head baseball coach in 1984. The program has recorded 25 winning seasons during his tenure.

Several former players and assistant coaches under Casey are now successful coaches at the college or high school level. Paul Svagdis, a 1993 graduate, guided Azusa Pacific University to two straight NAIA College World Series berths recently. Jamie Pinzino, a 1997 Tufts graduate, is the associated head coach at Virginia Tech. Former assistant coach Jason Tower is now the head coach at Roger Williams.

Ok.  But to the ends justify the means? 

Ends justify the means? Is there a college coach in any sport at any level who hasn't cut a kid? Nothing is guaranteed. The only thing guarantee is getting on the field in fall ball freshman year. Yes, some players get more opportunity than others. But if a player doesn't recognize the situation when he's being recruited he's not being true to himself.

If a kid doesn't feel he got a chance it's because he wasn't high on the recruiting list. It's just the way it is. It was up to him and his parents to recognize this during the process. With the exception of the top shelf, jaw dropping studs who could have signed out of high school every player is taking a leap of faith. 

This is just me. But if I were a D3 player sent to JV for a second season I would have given up college baseball (still play in the summer) or transferred. At a NESCAC I probably would have stayed at the school.

This is the root of the problem here.  How does one know if a coach is BSing a recruit?  Especially with D3 where no "love" (money) is involved.  With D1 scholarship schools at least there is are rules - a certain dollar amount spread over a certain number of players.  And there can only be so many players.  There are several discussion about the risks of a "preferred" walk on -- when they find out 20 kids have been "preferred" for a few spots.  Well D3 is similar, isn't it?  Unlimited rosters and JV teams.  Coaches can say a lot to get you to school, but what is the truth?  How do you judge a coach's honesty?  Is he a man of his word?  Really, what is to stop a coach from "offering" 20 plus players each year by saying whatever he has to and than sorting out the 5 or 6 who can play after school starts? 

Coaches don't recruit kids with the intention to cut them.  On the high academic side, it doesn't make much sense that a coach would BS a kid to come to his school, apply on his own, and then cut him.  The coach is going to get his 7-10 players that he needs in every recruiting class; kids he will "support". The schools mentioned here have no pressure from admissions to boost enrollment or applications.  So, what do they get out of lying to a borderline recruit who they will cut?

Let me take the other side here and say more people hear what they want to hear in the recruiting process, than hear what the coach is actually saying.  Let's say a Coach at one of these high academic D3's says, "We have guys ahead of you that we are going to support. If you apply and get in on your own, you will have a fair chance to make the team in the fall."  @Golfman25 this is what some might consider an "offer".  However, there are only 7, or so, that have an "offer". That offer is for support through admissions.  The other 13 have heard this line above.  It's their choice to apply and try out for the team.  This is often misinterpreted as an offer.  The only thing it is an offer for is an opportunity to make the team. I can guarantee you that these high academic D3's are not extending what some would consider "offers" to 20+ players per year.  No chance. They might extend the opportunity to make the team, and a fair chance, but not an offer.  They can't support 20+ kids through admissions. So, if an offer is support through admissions, then they are not over recruiting. They are getting 13 extra kids who have gotten into the school on their own and will receive a fair shot with an unmatched education. 

Keep in mind, those "offered" players still have to perform at a level that is worthy of being on the team.  And the "love" (money) at the D1 level can be taken away.  

Ultimately, whether it's D1,2,3,Juco,NAIA, or the club team, you have to perform at a certain level to make the team, and a certain level to play. Offers, Money, Love, etc, doesn't get you on the field.  

You nailed it sir!  

TPM posted:

SanDiegoRealist posted:

I know this has been about Tufts and D3 schools, but FIU has 29 commits for class of 2017 on PG website....so either Melendez is cleaning house or he's over-recruiting (IMO)...29!

FIU is D1 so it does not have anything to do with the discussion.  About 15 are seniors and I am assuming he will clean house after this year.  As far as the PG commit list, that's  probably a commit list only, not necessarily all scholarship signers.

 

I can see that Tufts is D3 and FIU is D1, clearly, as I stated so. The point I was making was in relationship to the comment about schools over-recruiting (whether it's to add bodies to the student body or for any other purpose).

About 15 are seniors, you are correct. In fact, exactly 15 of the 35 shown on the roster are seniors. So that should (under normal circumstances) leave 20 for 2018 season and adding 29 more to that mix equals...wait for it (math in public here)...49 players on roster at a D1 that is roster size limited to 35 I believe. 

That means 22 of those 49 kids are not going to be getting any scholarship dollars and 14 of them will not be rostered in the Spring (if everyone stays in place until spring 2018...not gonna happen, I know). Those are big numbers, and when we are discussing roster sizes (whether D1 or D3), recruiting red flags, and kids having opportunities at the schools they sign with, the example is relevant in my opinion.

It also a pretty glaring lesson at what can happen to players when a new coach/staff are brought into a school. Just like a lot of managers in businesses, you take a look at the operation, see what you need to do to improve it, and take action. It may mean personnel moves. I guess I am learning that college baseball rosters should be looked at in the same light. As such, knowing the coaching and recruiting history of a coach seems that much more important for a parent. Sites like PG with the ability to take a look and see who committed and who is rostered in the Spring affords a little bit of insight into that process (I know it's not 100% accurate). But it paints a picture that you can kind of fill in.

To be fair, I know some of the kids committed get drafted, didn't end up going to that school, etc...this is not a knock on one particular coach or program. I am just saying do your homework, use resources available to see how they are recruiting/signing and eventually playing their kids, and ask these questions to their faces. If they are put off by the question, it's not necessarily an admission of guilt or anything, but they should be able to answer that with an honest answer.

Coaches are not dishonest, but rather people tend to hear what they want.

Here is the deal, you know nothing about the recruits that are listed on PG. 

Rather than spend hours pouring over PG, just ask the coach during recruiting how many they plan on bringing in.  Have your son do well in the classroom and on the field and he will be fine. People have to stop obsessing over this.

TPM posted:

Coaches are not dishonest, but rather people tend to hear what they want.

Here is the deal, you know nothing about the recruits that are listed on PG. 

Rather than spend hours pouring over PG, just ask the coach during recruiting how many they plan on bringing in.  Have your son do well in the classroom and on the field and he will be fine. People have to stop obsessing over this.

Making an informed decision on where to go to school and potentially play ball is not obsessing, it's called due diligence.

Back to Tufts for a minute:  I have tremendous sympathy for HVbaseballdad as no one wants a child to have such a disappointing experience.  And it certainly is true that a coach can be great for one player and dismal for another.  This thread should be a cautionary tale for anyone whose son is considering college baseball at any level.  Nothing is set in stone.  I hope, HVbaseballdad, that the tremendous education your son is receiving at Tufts is a real consolation to you and to him. 

SanDiegoRealist posted:

TPM posted:

Coaches are not dishonest, but rather people tend to hear what they want.

Here is the deal, you know nothing about the recruits that are listed on PG. 

Rather than spend hours pouring over PG, just ask the coach during recruiting how many they plan on bringing in.  Have your son do well in the classroom and on the field and he will be fine. People have to stop obsessing over this.

Making an informed decision on where to go to school and potentially play ball is not obsessing, it's called due diligence.

I see it going beyond due diligence.  Parents are looking at commitments 3,4 years down the road and thats just silly.

Pouring over PG commit lists where your son may never get a contact is not necessary. I mean a real contact not just a camp invite. 

The day you are asked to make a trip to visit on campus, or the coach does some serious talking, then its time for due diligence.

JMO

TPM posted:

SanDiegoRealist posted:

TPM posted:

Coaches are not dishonest, but rather people tend to hear what they want.

Here is the deal, you know nothing about the recruits that are listed on PG. 

Rather than spend hours pouring over PG, just ask the coach during recruiting how many they plan on bringing in.  Have your son do well in the classroom and on the field and he will be fine. People have to stop obsessing over this.

Making an informed decision on where to go to school and potentially play ball is not obsessing, it's called due diligence.

I see it going beyond due diligence.  Parents are looking at commitments 3,4 years down the road and thats just silly.

Pouring over PG commit lists where your son may never get a contact is not necessary. I mean a real contact not just a camp invite. 

The day you are asked to make a trip to visit on campus, or the coach does some serious talking, then its time for due diligence.

JMO

You are entitled to your opinion, TPM, and I would also think someone wouldn't waste their time looking up a coach's history unless they are being seriously considered for that program. At the point where there is real interest, then I believe it's time to start kicking the tires. Baseball scholarships are reviewed annually, everyone should be aware of that going in. All you can expect is to take it one year at a time.

It's a big investment of your kid's time, effort and family resources in the recruiting process (showcases, tournaments, camps, visits, etc) and if you actually attend the school and are paying tuition, room, board. I have known families whose sons were recruited and attended D1s only to transfer after a year for myriad reasons, and I can say most of us don't want that for our kids.

When you go out shoe shopping do you just assume that shoe is going to fit comfortably or do you try it on? You try it on, walk around a bit in the store and try to assess in 30 seconds if it's going to wear comfortably. Nothing worse than a pair of shoes that you like but they sit in your closet because they hurt your feet. No different in the recruiting process. RJM stated he saw things in a game on the field that he thought were unprofessional at one point in this thread I believe. For most that would be a caution sign, but maybe he didn't see it that way and is comfortable with that style of coaching. Anecdotally, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

We're all different and a lot of us on this board are just starting to navigate the college recruiting waters, and perhaps many of these parents were not college athletes (I know I wasn't) and are really in unfamiliar waters. I can probably safely say we all want our kids to land at a school where they will be happy, play ball, and graduate from - without transferring. I would never tell a parent not to perform due diligence at any point they feel the need.

My 2 cents.  HV and anyone for that matter should be able to come in this forum and post their view of the experience they feel they've had from a college and not get bashed for doing so.  Certainly,  posters come on and bash the high school coaches for a bad experience without getting as much negative response.  I feel that any information you receive on here is helpful, you simply have to be able to understand where the poster is coming from in offering their perspective.  With Tufts and HV, I sympathize, my son is the same year in college and I remember going back through posts regarding information on Tufts and what I read was not all good or all bad but I was suspicious enough to have second thoughts.  I never told my son and it never became an issue, but if I had read a post like HV's and juxtaposed it to the others, I would have said something to my son.  I realize that we all have opinions on things/programs college baseball wise but when a father gives a first hand account of what he saw his son go through that should count for a lot.  Best of luck to you and your son HV.

I have to add a few things.  I've now heard the other side in a PM re Tufts, and it is not just sour grapes IMHO, and sharing their experience is actually helpful to some of us.  Now about the other issues this thread has drifted into....

Over-recruiting:  there have been several warnings on this site about FOR EXAMPLE (just one of several) Hopkins.  They have everyone "try out" every year.  No one is guaranteed a spot there.  So it does not surprise me (a more informed consumer thanks to HSBW) to see 41 on the roster.  There are many other examples of large rosters too.

NESCAC/High academic schools:  Our 2017 has had "offers" (as explained above, that means admissions support from the coach).  Not from Tufts, but other schools in the conference.  This makes me interested to know about JV possibilities, as that is not what mine would want.  But he also has had several schools tell him he has a spot on the team (not a chance to make the team, some schools have ALSO said that) if he gets in on his own.  His scores and grades make him an attractive academic candidate anywhere, and some coaches have used that to help the guys that need the help to make the team better and get the "gravy" of our 2017 getting in without the slot.  There is some risk for us in that strategy as he may not get in without coach's support.  If and when he does however, he will want to clarify his position on the team before deciding where he goes.  

TPM posted:

Coaches are not dishonest, but rather people tend to hear what they want.

Here is the deal, you know nothing about the recruits that are listed on PG. 

Rather than spend hours pouring over PG, just ask the coach during recruiting how many they plan on bringing in.  Have your son do well in the classroom and on the field and he will be fine. People have to stop obsessing over this.

I don't believe in absolutes...including this one. SOME coaches abosolutly are dishonest and SOME people hear only what they want to hear.

this site has a large presence that defends the schools and coaches at all times - balance is a huge part of the equation and generally speaking it is lacking on here. 

seaver41 posted:

My 2 cents.  HV and anyone for that matter should be able to come in this forum and post their view of the experience they feel they've had from a college and not get bashed for doing so.  Certainly,  posters come on and bash the high school coaches for a bad experience without getting as much negative response.  I feel that any information you receive on here is helpful, you simply have to be able to understand where the poster is coming from in offering their perspective.  ...

Seaver, I think the main point of contention, though, is actually naming the school or coach out on the open forum.  I think most HS coach bashing here has been without naming the school or coach.

Trying to think further about the best solution here... it probably already exists.  We just need to make more aware of it...  People do come on the site asking about specific schools and I often see where PM's are offered. 

cabbagedad posted:

seaver41 posted:

My 2 cents.  HV and anyone for that matter should be able to come in this forum and post their view of the experience they feel they've had from a college and not get bashed for doing so.  Certainly,  posters come on and bash the high school coaches for a bad experience without getting as much negative response.  I feel that any information you receive on here is helpful, you simply have to be able to understand where the poster is coming from in offering their perspective.  ...

Seaver, I think the main point of contention, though, is actually naming the school or coach out on the open forum.  I think most HS coach bashing here has been without naming the school or coach.

Trying to think further about the best solution here... it probably already exists.  We just need to make more aware of it...  People do come on the site asking about specific schools and I often see where PM's are offered. 

I think this thread has been basically self-correcting. Next fall, if a family is  weighing an offer from Tufts and Google directs them to this thread, they will learn that at least one family thinks their kid was treated unfairly there, and also that the coach, program, and school have many admirers and a long history of success.

... and also that they have a JV team.  IMO nobody should head to any D3 school without knowing if there is a JV  team and how that impacts his role in the program.

TPM posted:

Coaches are not dishonest, but rather people tend to hear what they want.

Here is the deal, you know nothing about the recruits that are listed on PG. 

Rather than spend hours pouring over PG, just ask the coach during recruiting how many they plan on bringing in.  Have your son do well in the classroom and on the field and he will be fine. People have to stop obsessing over this.

Let's take a bit closer look at these statements shall we?

1. Coach's are not dishonest, but rather people tend to hear what they want. Do you personally know every coach in college baseball? (i'm guessing not). How do you validate a statement like this? The use of the word 'tend' in the second part is a good qualifier, but again......HUGE generalization!

2. You know nothing about the recruits that are listed on PG. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't? Maybe his kid is considering an offer to the school mentioned? Maybe he knows just about everything about everyone of them? (appears he likes to do some research on the subject, No?)

3a. Have your son do well in the classroom and on the field and he will be fine. I'll step out on the edge here and say.....Pretty sure that the OP feels his son did EXACTLY this and look what happened to him. Do any of us know the depths of the actual situation just by reading the first/original post? Of course not....Personally doing what you imply in this statement guarantee's nothing but MAYBE a 'decent' opportunity. Pretty sure that no-ones sone sets out to do poorly either in the classroom or on the field from the get go. (I know....I shouldn't generalize...lol)

3b. People have to stop obsessing over this. Wouldn't it be fair to say that one man's obsession is another man's hobby? How can you generalize with such broad statements about people you likely no nothing about? Seems to me that 'SDR' is not obsessing but rather educating himself on the topic which is likely to have a rather big impact on his family in a number of ways as he navigates down the path.

I get that you have been around here a while, have traveled the road that many of us are just getting started on (or are in the middle of) and may even have quite a bit of experience with the college baseball recruiting topic in general. But it seems (at face value) to be rather disingenuous and perhaps even counter-productive to paint EVERYONE with such a broad brush.....No?

In my opinion, college coaches expect 150% player commitment but give nothing in return. I don't know anything about Tufts, nor do I want to. Whether you are getting athletic money at other divisions or not (Div 3), they will replace you in a heartbeat if they feel like it. What these coaches don't realize is this was a big commitment for the player and family. Last I looked, college baseball doesn't give free rides.  College is a big deal and not something to be taken lightly. Coach loses no skin off his back if a player is not happy. You can't burn any bridges as a player (but I would sure love to). At the D3 level, they're not sure who will be on the field in the Fall so I think they have to string along as many players as they can . I realize that there are no guarantees, but there should be.

Rangerboy posted:

In my opinion, college coaches expect 150% player commitment but give nothing in return. I don't know anything about Tufts, nor do I want to. Whether you are getting athletic money at other divisions or not (Div 3), they will replace you in a heartbeat if they feel like it. What these coaches don't realize is this was a big commitment for the player and family. Last I looked, college baseball doesn't give free rides.  College is a big deal and not something to be taken lightly. Coach loses no skin off his back if a player is not happy. You can't burn any bridges as a player (but I would sure love to). At the D3 level, they're not sure who will be on the field in the Fall so I think they have to string along as many players as they can . I realize that there are no guarantees, but there should be.

What in life regarding success is guaranteed? My kids haven't played on a team where anything is guaranteed since rec ball. When I worked for someone else it was succeed or be fired. When I started a company it was succeed or go broke. Even college is pass or go home.

HV ... You publicly outed the college and the coach. How about publicly posting the issues? 

I understand where you're coming from, Ranger, but I'm not sure it's realistic. The baseball uncertainty is why a kid should pick a school he thinks he'll be happy at even if baseball doesn't work out. JMO. 

SanDiegoRealist posted:

TPM posted:

SanDiegoRealist posted:

TPM posted:

Coaches are not dishonest, but rather people tend to hear what they want.

Here is the deal, you know nothing about the recruits that are listed on PG. 

Rather than spend hours pouring over PG, just ask the coach during recruiting how many they plan on bringing in.  Have your son do well in the classroom and on the field and he will be fine. People have to stop obsessing over this.

Making an informed decision on where to go to school and potentially play ball is not obsessing, it's called due diligence.

I see it going beyond due diligence.  Parents are looking at commitments 3,4 years down the road and thats just silly.

Pouring over PG commit lists where your son may never get a contact is not necessary. I mean a real contact not just a camp invite. 

The day you are asked to make a trip to visit on campus, or the coach does some serious talking, then its time for due diligence.

JMO

You are entitled to your opinion, TPM, and I would also think someone wouldn't waste their time looking up a coach's history unless they are being seriously considered for that program. At the point where there is real interest, then I believe it's time to start kicking the tires. Baseball scholarships are reviewed annually, everyone should be aware of that going in. All you can expect is to take it one year at a time.

It's a big investment of your kid's time, effort and family resources in the recruiting process (showcases, tournaments, camps, visits, etc) and if you actually attend the school and are paying tuition, room, board. I have known families whose sons were recruited and attended D1s only to transfer after a year for myriad reasons, and I can say most of us don't want that for our kids.

When you go out shoe shopping do you just assume that shoe is going to fit comfortably or do you try it on? You try it on, walk around a bit in the store and try to assess in 30 seconds if it's going to wear comfortably. Nothing worse than a pair of shoes that you like but they sit in your closet because they hurt your feet. No different in the recruiting process. RJM stated he saw things in a game on the field that he thought were unprofessional at one point in this thread I believe. For most that would be a caution sign, but maybe he didn't see it that way and is comfortable with that style of coaching. Anecdotally, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

We're all different and a lot of us on this board are just starting to navigate the college recruiting waters, and perhaps many of these parents were not college athletes (I know I wasn't) and are really in unfamiliar waters. I can probably safely say we all want our kids to land at a school where they will be happy, play ball, and graduate from - without transferring. I would never tell a parent not to perform due diligence at any point they feel the need.

I never said not to do your homework. 

This whole process is like a marriage, people break up for different reasons, but I am pretty sure its not always about the coach.

RJM, with all due respect, my point was that college is a big commitment for the entire family. My son is out of state, BIG financial commitment for us. Those were the great years when I wasn't expecting any guarantees from little league/rec ball. That was fun !  It's not fun anymore when you have forked over a lot of money because a coach told you your son would be able to play there (within a specific time frame) and it hasn't happened. Nothing changed for my son and his ability so you have to question what the coaches motives are.

TPM posted:

SanDiegoRealist posted:

TPM posted:

SanDiegoRealist posted:

TPM posted:

Coaches are not dishonest, but rather people tend to hear what they want.

Here is the deal, you know nothing about the recruits that are listed on PG. 

Rather than spend hours pouring over PG, just ask the coach during recruiting how many they plan on bringing in.  Have your son do well in the classroom and on the field and he will be fine. People have to stop obsessing over this.

Making an informed decision on where to go to school and potentially play ball is not obsessing, it's called due diligence.

I see it going beyond due diligence.  Parents are looking at commitments 3,4 years down the road and thats just silly.

Pouring over PG commit lists where your son may never get a contact is not necessary. I mean a real contact not just a camp invite. 

The day you are asked to make a trip to visit on campus, or the coach does some serious talking, then its time for due diligence.

JMO

You are entitled to your opinion, TPM, and I would also think someone wouldn't waste their time looking up a coach's history unless they are being seriously considered for that program. At the point where there is real interest, then I believe it's time to start kicking the tires. Baseball scholarships are reviewed annually, everyone should be aware of that going in. All you can expect is to take it one year at a time.

It's a big investment of your kid's time, effort and family resources in the recruiting process (showcases, tournaments, camps, visits, etc) and if you actually attend the school and are paying tuition, room, board. I have known families whose sons were recruited and attended D1s only to transfer after a year for myriad reasons, and I can say most of us don't want that for our kids.

When you go out shoe shopping do you just assume that shoe is going to fit comfortably or do you try it on? You try it on, walk around a bit in the store and try to assess in 30 seconds if it's going to wear comfortably. Nothing worse than a pair of shoes that you like but they sit in your closet because they hurt your feet. No different in the recruiting process. RJM stated he saw things in a game on the field that he thought were unprofessional at one point in this thread I believe. For most that would be a caution sign, but maybe he didn't see it that way and is comfortable with that style of coaching. Anecdotally, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

We're all different and a lot of us on this board are just starting to navigate the college recruiting waters, and perhaps many of these parents were not college athletes (I know I wasn't) and are really in unfamiliar waters. I can probably safely say we all want our kids to land at a school where they will be happy, play ball, and graduate from - without transferring. I would never tell a parent not to perform due diligence at any point they feel the need.

I never said not to do your homework. 

This whole process is like a marriage, people break up for different reasons, but I am pretty sure its not always about the coach.

I think Desert Duck's reply to your post kind of sums it up. There are two sides to every story, and to use your marriage analogy, it's foolish to rush into a marriage without really knowing the other person (sounds a lot like due diligence). 

Nobody said it was "always" about the coach...but in my experience where there is smoke, there is fire.

DesertDuck posted:

TPM posted:

Coaches are not dishonest, but rather people tend to hear what they want.

Here is the deal, you know nothing about the recruits that are listed on PG. 

Rather than spend hours pouring over PG, just ask the coach during recruiting how many they plan on bringing in.  Have your son do well in the classroom and on the field and he will be fine. People have to stop obsessing over this.

Let's take a bit closer look at these statements shall we?

1. Coach's are not dishonest, but rather people tend to hear what they want. Do you personally know every coach in college baseball? (i'm guessing not). How do you validate a statement like this? The use of the word 'tend' in the second part is a good qualifier, but again......HUGE generalization!

2. You know nothing about the recruits that are listed on PG. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't? Maybe his kid is considering an offer to the school mentioned? Maybe he knows just about everything about everyone of them? (appears he likes to do some research on the subject, No?)

3a. Have your son do well in the classroom and on the field and he will be fine. I'll step out on the edge here and say.....Pretty sure that the OP feels his son did EXACTLY this and look what happened to him. Do any of us know the depths of the actual situation just by reading the first/original post? Of course not....Personally doing what you imply in this statement guarantee's nothing but MAYBE a 'decent' opportunity. Pretty sure that no-ones sone sets out to do poorly either in the classroom or on the field from the get go. (I know....I shouldn't generalize...lol)

3b. People have to stop obsessing over this. Wouldn't it be fair to say that one man's obsession is another man's hobby? How can you generalize with such broad statements about people you likely no nothing about? Seems to me that 'SDR' is not obsessing but rather educating himself on the topic which is likely to have a rather big impact on his family in a number of ways as he navigates down the path.

 

I get that you have been around here a while, have traveled the road that many of us are just getting started on (or are in the middle of) and may even have quite a bit of experience with the college baseball recruiting topic in general. But it seems (at face value) to be rather disingenuous and perhaps even counter-productive to paint EVERYONE with such a broad brush.....No?

You arent gonna like this, but after 3 and a half years of not making the team, maybe the player, in the coaching staffs opinion would not contribute to the success of the team, for any reason.

Thats usually the case, and I truly understand that parents see their players as better than they are, but this is how it works.  

These are really tough situations. I'm fretting over my 2017 being moved to LF from CF this season and others are seeing once-promising baseball experiences going up in smoke. A lot of blood, sweat and tears we all shed for our kids and a game. 

Interesting thread here, many good points made. Good to hear all sides of the story. Every thing is rosy when a commit arrives at a school. HV's post was as a result of a long timeframe not an isolated instance and one person's assessment. Things do not always go as planned. Recruits do need to do their homework on a program and look at would they still like the school (climate, culture, geography, academics,placement) if the baseball part doesn't work out.  Remember, the coin as we see in this thread has two sides to it.

Rangerboy posted:

RJM, with all due respect, my point was that college is a big commitment for the entire family. My son is out of state, BIG financial commitment for us. Those were the great years when I wasn't expecting any guarantees from little league/rec ball. That was fun !  It's not fun anymore when you have forked over a lot of money because a coach told you your son would be able to play there (within a specific time frame) and it hasn't happened. Nothing changed for my son and his ability so you have to question what the coaches motives are.

If "Nothing has changed for your son and his ability", then maybe that is the problem.  He hasn't gotten better, or the coach brought in better players?  That is his job.  

College Baseball is not easy, and nothing is guaranteed.  I tell Ryno that he has to compete EVERY day, because his teammate and future teammates are fighting for his spot.  When he has found himself in an unenviable position, I have told him to work harder, not stay the same...

I personally am in the middle on this.  I can see where coaches wouldn't be entirely truthful, but I can't recall where Ryan had that situation happen to him.  The Kansas found Ryan late in the process, and told him that he had a scholarship IF his players were drafted.  Unfortunately, they had no players drafted that year, so the money was not available.  West Virginia came out to watch Ryan late in his Sr. Yr., and they said they really liked him, but they had 2 other guys they were considering.  He didn't get the spot.  

Do I think parents here what they want to hear?  Yes.  I would bet more times than the coach doesn't provide the full truth.  Why?  Because it feels good.  Everybody wants their boy to be wanted, and they hope he gets the best opportunity possible.

When a person says they got screwed, or the infamous, "It was politics", it initially gives me the "proceed with caution" feeling.  I need to know more prior to making a decision.

With all of the above being said, if the coach at Tufts cut him the day of the first game, I think that is horse@#$%!  The coach should have been able to let the boy know prior to that.  I can't imagine putting in the work all Fall/Winter, and then thinking I am on the opening day roster, and then be told the day of that I am not on the team.  I just don't think that is the right way to handle it.

Rynoattack: My interpretation of "nothing has changed" means my son's baseball talent has not deteriorated since he's been with the program. Of course he has gotten stronger/better and I would expect a good program to continue to develop its players.  If that is the way coaches conduct themselves (they are running a business). They should be honest and say to each and every recruit,"I will make you no promises, I don't know if and when you will play, and you may have a chance if there isn't a player I like more than you". That is the reality. We should all know why coaches don't say those things, no one would come to their school!

TPM posted:

DesertDuck posted:

TPM posted:

Coaches are not dishonest, but rather people tend to hear what they want.

Here is the deal, you know nothing about the recruits that are listed on PG. 

Rather than spend hours pouring over PG, just ask the coach during recruiting how many they plan on bringing in.  Have your son do well in the classroom and on the field and he will be fine. People have to stop obsessing over this.

Let's take a bit closer look at these statements shall we?

1. Coach's are not dishonest, but rather people tend to hear what they want. Do you personally know every coach in college baseball? (i'm guessing not). How do you validate a statement like this? The use of the word 'tend' in the second part is a good qualifier, but again......HUGE generalization!

2. You know nothing about the recruits that are listed on PG. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't? Maybe his kid is considering an offer to the school mentioned? Maybe he knows just about everything about everyone of them? (appears he likes to do some research on the subject, No?)

3a. Have your son do well in the classroom and on the field and he will be fine. I'll step out on the edge here and say.....Pretty sure that the OP feels his son did EXACTLY this and look what happened to him. Do any of us know the depths of the actual situation just by reading the first/original post? Of course not....Personally doing what you imply in this statement guarantee's nothing but MAYBE a 'decent' opportunity. Pretty sure that no-ones sone sets out to do poorly either in the classroom or on the field from the get go. (I know....I shouldn't generalize...lol)

3b. People have to stop obsessing over this. Wouldn't it be fair to say that one man's obsession is another man's hobby? How can you generalize with such broad statements about people you likely no nothing about? Seems to me that 'SDR' is not obsessing but rather educating himself on the topic which is likely to have a rather big impact on his family in a number of ways as he navigates down the path.

 

I get that you have been around here a while, have traveled the road that many of us are just getting started on (or are in the middle of) and may even have quite a bit of experience with the college baseball recruiting topic in general. But it seems (at face value) to be rather disingenuous and perhaps even counter-productive to paint EVERYONE with such a broad brush.....No?

You arent gonna like this, but after 3 and a half years of not making the team, maybe the player, in the coaching staffs opinion would not contribute to the success of the team, for any reason.

Thats usually the case, and I truly understand that parents see their players as better than they are, but this is how it works.  

??

Is this like a..."Ground Control To Major Tom" type moment that I'm not quite picking up on?

I like it just fine and agree completely.

Rangerboy posted:

RJM, with all due respect, my point was that college is a big commitment for the entire family. My son is out of state, BIG financial commitment for us. Those were the great years when I wasn't expecting any guarantees from little league/rec ball. That was fun !  It's not fun anymore when you have forked over a lot of money because a coach told you your son would be able to play there (within a specific time frame) and it hasn't happened. Nothing changed for my son and his ability so you have to question what the coaches motives are.

I had two kids play baseball/softball hundreds of miles away. Neither one was promised anything. They were told the coaching staff felt they had the ability to contribute. They were told they had the potential to earn a position. My daughter was a fourth outfielder for four years. My son started somewhere on the field from mid freshman year. Every year a new hot recruit started over him opening day. He played the Sunday game, hit and never looked back. Every year he had a new position, or two.

What my kids did was chose universities where they would be happy to walk away with a degree. I would like to think Tufts fits this objective. It's one of the top small colleges in the country. 

For those who don't get it here is the coach's motivation ... Have thirty-five players available in a given year (could be more at a D3 or JuCo) that will provide eighteen to twenty players who can help the program win. If a player is not one of the eighteen to twenty it doesn't mean the coach is a jerk. It means the coaching staff placed more value in those eighteen to twenty players than the player in question. It happens at every baseball program every year.

It doesn't  mean a kid can't play. It only means he's not going to play there. It happens to D1 players who end up drafted every year.