Two Pitchers+347 pitches=WOW

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Seems like baseball seems to be the only sport that restricts play. Maybe a quarterback will only be allowed to throw so many passes or if he is sacked more than x amount he is out of the game. Or a running back can only gain so many yards or be tackled so many times. How about a basketball player can only play so many minutes straight before being subbed for. sorry for the sarcasm but it seems that what is happening is for whatever reason people feel that common sense has to be legislated.

Football has multiple rules about where and when a QB can be hit and hits on a defenseless receiver. Even moving the kickoff 5 yards closer to reduce return injuries. Player safety is the reason for many rules being implemented in other sports.

If common sense can't be legislated then lack of it should be penalized to protect minors at least.

quote:

by Swampboy:

None of my grandparents arrived in this country until 1910. Was 1865 the last time a northern team won the CWS?

I tell you what. I'll give you a little lesson in bantering. When you make a joke and someone turns it around on you, you have two options. You can either say "Touche" or you can add yet another clever twist to turn it back on him. That's how it works.

Unless the state of Oregon moved south, the last CWS by a northern state was 2006 and 2007, Oregon State. That was after 1910 when your grandparents arrived so you should remember.

How about that clever twist....
Now you could say.."Touche"
Is that how you told me it works?

The ironic thing is that top of the chart pitchers don't have to be used like this to win games and titles.

My son played summer ball with a pitcher who was a supplemental round pick last June. Last year his team won the state championship with him only throwing around 45-50 innings all year. He had slight tenderness early in the season and didn't pitch much, then the flu and missed another week. He got healthy right before the playoffs and was used wisely during their run. Started a couple games, closed a couple and pitched in every game. The team won the title with him pitching 6 inning in the finals and the # 2 closing the game. It can be done with a coach who has a plan for both the team and it's star pitcher.

This coach was in contact with the pitchers father throughout the year about his health and accomodating the scouts that were at every game. He cared as much about the players future as he did about his team winning. He succeeded at both!

A high school team has many games that really don't mean much during the season. Even rivalry games.

Excellent progress, my friend. For your effort, I shall ignore that Oregon State is generally considered a western school, not a northern one. However, I don't recall their playing a large role in that war you mentioned. I think the only civil war they acknowledge out there is a football game.

quote:

Originally posted by fillsfan:
This coach was in contact with the pitchers father throughout the year about his health and accomodating the scouts that were at every game. He cared as much about the players future as he did about his team winning. He succeeded at both!

That is a blue print on how it should work. It would take out the need to make more rules and regs.

quote:

Originally posted by shortnquick:
That is a blue print on how it should work. It would take out the need to make more rules and regs.

That’s exactly right! But rules and regs are for those who wouldn’t follow the blueprint, or even exercise simple common sense. When someone figures out how to get that to happen, I’ll be the 1st one in line trying to get rid of unneeded rules and regs. Until then, I’m afraid there isn’t enough fairy dust to stop all the stupid coaches from exercising their right to be stupid.

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:

Well coach, I don’t know that it would be “the worst thing you could do for baseball”, but I can certainly understand how some people would think it would hurt the game. But really, if I could go back to just before LL put the rule in, I’d be seeing the exact same kind of fear mongering. People were screaming about how youth baseball would be destroyed, and in turn that would destroy baseball right up the ladder.

But, not only did LL Inc survive, now almost all organizations below the HS level have dropped IPs as the limiting factor and gone to pitch counts. And that was the basic issue. Limiting pitching by limiting innings was better than no limits at all, but not much. Like them or not, pitch counts are a far better limiting factor because they have a finite limit, unlike IPs. And you’re 100% correct, that no matter what the rule is, somebody out there ain’t gonna like it.

Here’s a question I always ask in these discussions, and so far no one’s been able to answer it very well at all. Assuming he’s conditioned well and able to throw 100+ pitches with no ill effects, just exactly what benefit does that player get from the pitches over say 80?

Here’s an example that happened just this past week. We’re playing a game and are going to the 7th, leading 5-2 and having retired the last 11 of the opponent batters in a row. Our pitcher, a Soph, had thrown 29,18,22,17,7, and 12 for a total of 105 pitches, and was obviously coasting. Meanwhile, we had several other kids who hadn’t gotten to throw much at all this season, but one particular kid was a Fr the coach brought up to give him only the 2nd lefty pitcher on the squad. Unfortunately, he’d only thrown 4 and 2/3rds innings in 3 weeks, and sorely needed to get some game time.

So who comes out to throw the 7th? We have 4 pitchers with 2.67, 4.67, 6, and 6. 67 IPs, and 3 with 33.33, 24.66, and 21.33. The 24.66 was pitching. What will the kid pitching get out of another inning, as opposed to what one of those other 4 would get? And keep in mind that the ace still has 9 outs he can pitch that week, the #2 5 outs, and none of the other 4 have thrown to a batter, so each could get 10 outs if necessary.

Yeah there was some hyperbole going on with my worst thing in the world comment but starting at the high school level it wouldn't be good. Regardless of the success this has had at the lower levels. It's two different animals which where the difference is. It's one thing to tell a 12 year old you can't throw more than 50 - 55 pitches per outing versus telling an 18 year old the same thing. It's a fine line and delicate balance between pushing a young man to get the most out of him without putting his health in jeopardy.

I totally agree that pitch count is way better in terms of protection verusus inning counts. but to say "This number of pitches is the absolute maximum someone should throw in a game" is going to hold back some pitchers. So yeah you're going to protect that kid who can pitch but isn't real effective in longer outings at the expense of turning a kid into a potential workhorse. Yes I said workhorse at the high school level because it depends on your definition of what a workhorse is. To me a workhorse is a guy you throw out there once a week who you figure can give you 7 innings each time out without laboring and mechanical breakdown. But a coach has to be smart and get him out when he doesnt' have it that day and go with someone else. As you move up in baseball the number of pitches should increase at each level and year involved. That's why what you tell a LLer is ok because it is about development, teaching and not being physically as mature as a HSer.

quote:

Here’s a question I always ask in these discussions, and so far no one’s been able to answer it very well at all. Assuming he’s conditioned well and able to throw 100+ pitches with no ill effects, just exactly what benefit does that player get from the pitches over say 80?

Ok let me answer you with a question myself - if this kid is in good health, good shape, no loss in velocity and mechanics are still good then how do you really help him by pulling him at 80 instead of 100? The numbers are just flat out arbitrary in most respective cases because as PG said it comes down to the individual. If he's capable of going 100 then why pull him when he's short. You can't say the arm only has so many throws in it because you don't know what that number is.

If you say pull him at 80 when he's capable of going to 100 guess what's going to happen to baseball in a few years? They are going to say well we pull him at 80 so why not go ahead an pull him at 70 and when will it end?

In your example I don't see that as protecting an arm - that is all strategy. First I don't see 105 pitches in the fifth inning as cruising no matter how many he's sat down in a row. That is telling me he's going deep in the count on most hitters. He needs to come out because A) the odds of him being effective in the 6th / 7th aren't in his favor, B) his pitch count is too high, C) it's good to go with someone that has a different look for one time through the lineup and D) he's a young high school kid.

So if I'm reading you correctly you're saying that he should have went a single digit IP guy versus the double digit guys - is that correct? If so then what do you tell your team if that single digit IP guy loses the game when you could have used one of these experienced guys to shut the door? You don't let a young pitcher cut his teeth in a 5 - 2 game. There's a whole other discussion of if you have them on the team whether you play them or not but in this situation you go with the experience because it's about winning the game because that's important. What does the experience kid get out of that appearance? A win for the team - that's what he gets out of it.

The name of the game is to play, compete and win BUT not at the expense of a kid's health.

Maybe these boys are being signed by Arkansas Little Rock. I see where they had are prevalent in the above 140 pitch count areas. If you want to see how it falls out in college check this out.
http://boydsworld.com/data/pitchcount.html
There are a lot that fall into the overpitch count and some very early in the season. One pitcher threw on 1 days rest and threw 150 the second outing of the two in three.
I believe there is a limit but it depends on the guy. How hard he throws, what he throws, how much he uses his body, and how conditioned he is. Not a fan of institutionalized pitch counts but common sense.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
Maybe these boys are being signed by Arkansas Little Rock. I see where they had are prevalent in the above 140 pitch count areas. If you want to see how it falls out in college check this out.
http://boydsworld.com/data/pitchcount.html

Actually, wouldn't it be better to see a chart listing injured pitchers per team?

The pitch count list doesn't mean much to me otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
Yeah there was some hyperbole going on with my worst thing in the world comment but starting at the high school level it wouldn't be good. Regardless of the success this has had at the lower levels. It's two different animals which where the difference is. It's one thing to tell a 12 year old you can't throw more than 50 - 55 pitches per outing versus telling an 18 year old the same thing. It's a fine line and delicate balance between pushing a young man to get the most out of him without putting his health in jeopardy.

But it isn’t just 18YOs in HS! We always have several 14YOs in our program, and there are places where 7th’ and 8th graders are allowed to play in the HS program, and that would definitely include some 12YOs. There’s just no way to have different rules for every age bracket or physical condition, and that’s why there are blanket rules. Are they the best approach? Prolly not. But they are an approach.

quote:

I totally agree that pitch count is way better in terms of protection verusus inning counts. but to say "This number of pitches is the absolute maximum someone should throw in a game" is going to hold back some pitchers. So yeah you're going to protect that kid who can pitch but isn't real effective in longer outings at the expense of turning a kid into a potential workhorse. Yes I said workhorse at the high school level because it depends on your definition of what a workhorse is. To me a workhorse is a guy you throw out there once a week who you figure can give you 7 innings each time out without laboring and mechanical breakdown. But a coach has to be smart and get him out when he doesnt' have it that day and go with someone else. As you move up in baseball the number of pitches should increase at each level and year involved. That's why what you tell a LLer is ok because it is about development, teaching and not being physically as mature as a HSer.

How is it going to hold anyone back?

quote:

Ok let me answer you with a question myself - if this kid is in good health, good shape, no loss in velocity and mechanics are still good then how do you really help him by pulling him at 80 instead of 100? The numbers are just flat out arbitrary in most respective cases because as PG said it comes down to the individual. If he's capable of going 100 then why pull him when he's short. You can't say the arm only has so many throws in it because you don't know what that number is.

That’s what happens whenever I ask that question. People just don’t want to answer it, other than to go into what you did. If the kid is healthy, if he’s had enough rest, if …. I’m sorry if I seem argumentative, but I really don’t get it. Its almost like saying you have to ride every horse as hard as possible for as long as they’re able, just because they can do it.

quote:

If you say pull him at 80 when he's capable of going to 100 guess what's going to happen to baseball in a few years? They are going to say well we pull him at 80 so why not go ahead an pull him at 70 and when will it end?

I suppose that’s possible, but so what? The only reason to have pitchers throw more, is because the pitchers behind them aren’t as good, or at least that’s the rationalization. So why not just develop more pitchers?

quote:

In your example I don't see that as protecting an arm - that is all strategy. First I don't see 105 pitches in the fifth inning as cruising no matter how many he's sat down in a row. That is telling me he's going deep in the count on most hitters. He needs to come out because A) the odds of him being effective in the 6th / 7th aren't in his favor, B) his pitch count is too high, C) it's good to go with someone that has a different look for one time through the lineup and D) he's a young high school kid.

Well, it may tell you that, but that’s not what was happening. He’d thrown almost 70 pitches in the 1st 3 innings, and was really cruising in everyone’s estimation who saw the game. But I don’t at all disagree with your assessment as to why he should have been taken out.

quote:

So if I'm reading you correctly you're saying that he should have went a single digit IP guy versus the double digit guys - is that correct? If so then what do you tell your team if that single digit IP guy loses the game when you could have used one of these experienced guys to shut the door? You don't let a young pitcher cut his teeth in a 5 - 2 game. There's a whole other discussion of if you have them on the team whether you play them or not but in this situation you go with the experience because it's about winning the game because that's important. What does the experience kid get out of that appearance? A win for the team - that's what he gets out of it.

The name of the game is to play, compete and win BUT not at the expense of a kid's health.

I understand your trepidation of putting in a kid who hasn’t thrown much, but how much danger is there really? If he shows any signs at all of faltering, he can be yanked in a heartbeat, and one or more of the horses brought in to quiet any threat, and anyone coming in is much less fatigued.

And what would the inexperienced kid get if he had any kind of luck at all? After all, its not as though the coach is grabbing some band member out of the bleachers and putting him on the mound. What does it say for the program when a pitcher who’s been in the program since the summer before, isn’t trusted to get even 1 out?

What funny is, you’re arguing both sides at the same time. The kid should be replaced but not by anyone with less experience than him. But its all good since I’m just an observer.

When I was about an 8th grader I witnessed a high school game that went 15 innings. 2 pitchers finished the whole thing. 1 of them was a stud all thru high school and played a little minor league ball (doug may)... the other, was never the same again and did not pitch after high school (to my knowledge).
nobody counted pitches in the 70's but they both had to be way up there.
we have a double header tonight but i promise i will use more than 1 pitcher in the 14 innings.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Actually, wouldn't it be better to see a chart listing injured pitchers per team?

The pitch count list doesn't mean much to me otherwise.

The only way to do that with any validity in the results, is to have a national database that listed all pitchers, the number of pitches for every outing, the date of any complaint of any kind of discomfort, and the date and results any visits to Drs, trainers, or the like. Good luck getting one.

The people who are careful don’t want to be bothered with any extra work, and the idiots don’t want their handiwork displayed for all to see. So its lose lose, with the idiots getting all the benefits.

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
The only way to do that with any validity in the results, is to have a national database that listed all pitchers, the number of pitches for every outing, the date of any complaint of any kind of discomfort, and the date and results any visits to Drs, trainers, or the like. Good luck getting one.

A Carfax for pitchers!

"Here’s a question I always ask in these discussions, and so far no one’s been able to answer it very well at all. Assuming he’s conditioned well and able to throw 100+ pitches with no ill effects, just exactly what benefit does that player get from the pitches over say 80? "

I'll try to answer this. As for what benefit the player will get- who knows?

But, the team might like the results. It is a team game, right?

quote:

The only way to do that with any validity in the results, is to have a national database that listed all pitchers, the number of pitches for every outing, the date of any complaint of any kind of discomfort, and the date and results any visits to Drs, trainers, or the like. Good luck getting one.

It wouldn't be that hard. It doesn't need to very complicated.

ex, 16 pitchers on roster, 3 out with injuries (how?), 4 with previous injuries (what type?). 7 out of 16 (44%) pitchers with injuries.

Is is known if either player has been examined for RAS, Rubber Arm Syndrome?

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
It wouldn't be that hard. It doesn't need to very complicated.

ex, 16 pitchers on roster, 3 out with injuries (how?), 4 with previous injuries (what type?). 7 out of 16 (44%) pitchers with injuries.

Heck no it isn’t complicated, and in fact I’ve had 1 national stat company already say they’d not only do it, they already have the hardware and software in place. That’s not the difficulty though. Its figgerin’ out who’s gonna post the stuff. Remember, unless its mandatory it won’t do as much good as it could.

Heck, just try to figger out who would post pitch counts and you’ll soon run into a firestorm, so I can imagine what it would be like to try to make sure medical records, even just the minimal information we’re looking for, had to be put in.

Anyone who’s ever done any kind of data manipulation on a PC would have little or no problem with it. But not everyone is computer literate enough to do this. Plus you’ve got the issue of people not wanting to expose themselves to criticism for fear of being sued, not to mention those who’d be gypped out of being able to sneak off to a showcase or tournament with a different team.

Here’s how bad things are. Last year I decided to try to find out what kind numbers LL Inc was looking at since they instated the pitch count rules. I just wanted to see simple things like number of pitches and number of appearances. I got hold of Williamsport, told them what I wanted to research, and was told they keep no records at the national level, nor do they require any lower level keep records.

So, I contacted 3 different regions, and got the same story. Not one to give up easily, I contacted several districts and got nada as well. Throwing all caution to the wind, I contacted 7 local leagues, and guess what? None of them do it either! In all fairness, I’m sure there are quite a few leagues out there who do require all pitching performances be cataloged, but it’s a real hit and miss affair.

I even offered my services to write a program for our league that would store and report the data, but the board almost came to blows trying to figure out who would be responsible for calling in the data, and for putting it in.

Its just way to large a concept for a lot of people to wrap their heads around, even though its so simple a 6YO could do it.

quote:

Originally posted by AntzDad:
I'll try to answer this. As for what benefit the player will get- who knows?

But, the team might like the results. It is a team game, right?

OK, then what you’re saying is, W’s and L’s take precedence over a kid’s health or safety. IOW, winning at all costs is all that matters. Sorry, that’s a concept I believe in for professional sports, but that’s not what we’re talking about.

This is terrible and the blame is completely on the poor Coaching. I have noticed a lot of JV Baseball Coaches who are struggling to develop Pitchers on their Teams. More and more kids are being over worked because the Coaches are not making the extra effort to teach more players to take the mound. Those Coaches should be Suspended by the League for this infraction.

quote:

Originally posted by AntzDad:

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
The only way to do that with any validity in the results, is to have a national database that listed all pitchers, the number of pitches for every outing, the date of any complaint of any kind of discomfort, and the date and results any visits to Drs, trainers, or the like. Good luck getting one.

A Carfax for pitchers!



"Here’s a question I always ask in these discussions, and so far no one’s been able to answer it very well at all. Assuming he’s conditioned well and able to throw 100+ pitches with no ill effects, just exactly what benefit does that player get from the pitches over say 80? "

I'll try to answer this. As for what benefit the player will get- who knows?

But, the team might like the results. It is a team game, right?

Wrong. Kids with DI scholarship potential means Baseball is part of REAL life which is not a team game unless you are Communist.

When a kid blows out his arm the other players and the parents of kids not pitching won't be chipping in to help him with college. They won't go to work an pay him for lost dollars playing professional ball. They might come back and buy him a drink in the local bar and relive Glory days when they were medicore and the kid with the big arm carried them to the title. Heck I could even write a song about it....wait that's been done.

Please everyone get perspective...it is a meaningless game UNLESS you have real talent and then it is a BUSINESS. To think otherwise is simply pie in the sky not based in reality.

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:

quote:

Originally posted by AntzDad:
I'll try to answer this. As for what benefit the player will get- who knows?

But, the team might like the results. It is a team game, right?

OK, then what you’re saying is, W’s and L’s take precedence over a kid’s health or safety. IOW, winning at all costs is all that matters. Sorry, that’s a concept I believe in for professional sports, but that’s not what we’re talking about.

This is what you wrote:
he’s conditioned well and able to throw 100+ pitches with no ill effects

You say he can do it. So, how are his health or safety negatively affected? If I am mis-intepreting this, maybe that's why no one else has answered- no one understands your question. If you are trying to trick me into saying 'no kid should ever throw 100 pitches in a game', that's not going to happen because I don't believe it. Some kids can.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
Maybe these boys are being signed by Arkansas Little Rock. I see where they had are prevalent in the above 140 pitch count areas. If you want to see how it falls out in college check this out.
http://boydsworld.com/data/pitchcount.html

Actually, wouldn't it be better to see a chart listing injured pitchers per team?

The pitch count list doesn't mean much to me otherwise.

It seems pretty clear how much difference in perspectives this issue presents.
In my view, what most of the authoritative works describe is repeated and chronic use/overuse can lead to injury or an increased risk of injury.
It is not usually a one to one where you see the game with 150 pitches and if the kid doesn't grab his elbow or shoulder, all is okay.
One needs to follow the situation over time, sometime 3-5 years, sometimes less.
For those who point to Nolan Ryan, let me reference the a former D3 pitcher of the year. He was a 7th round pick of the Mets. During his college season he pitched 122 innings, averaging a bit over 14 K's per game in 19 starts and 2 relief appearance. His best pitch was a mid 80's late breaking slider with very tight spin. In the Regional, he threw it often, perhaps 30-40% of the time.
In a 12 day span from the Thursday 1st game of the West Regional to the Monday Championship game of the CWS in Appleton, he threw around 37 innings.
I don't know his counts in Appleton. In the regional he was near 135 in game one on Thursday, near 40 in a Saturday relief appearance and around 120 the next day in a 7 inning start for the Regional title and a trip to the CWS.
The head coach got a D1 position shortly after.
About 4 weeks into the Milb season, this pitcher was shut down, had TJ, tried to rehab for over 2 Milb seasons, but never pitched again. He never recovered.
Put the stats on this one and college would appear to come up fine.
Extend the period out a couple of months, not so good.
On another discussion board, some said getting a "ring" was all worth it.
Some said the college season was fine, it was all that occurred in the 4 weeks in Milb and the purported overuse/bullpens in the 4 weeks after the draft.
If one is in a camp, it seems like it has to be one way or the other.
It seems so much more likely this TJ could be due to both and one career ended.

This entire thread reinforces my feeling that I'm glad my son is not a pitcher. Too much to worry about...too much throwing, not enough throwing, long toss, bullpens, running. etc... Not to mention me being a nervous wreck for 2 hours.

I knows it is very rewarding, the spotlight is on, and you control the game, and I respect pitchers a lot. Some of my best friends are pitchers. But it is much easier being a position player as far as preparation goes. And a lot less likely of arm injuries. And you play everyday.

Fillsfan..agree but college travel rosters are 25 with almost half being pitchers

Stats you're right in that not everyone is 18 years old in high school and I agree that you can't have overall rules for every age bracket / physical condition. But you can as a coach have those individual rules for each pitcher based on MANY factors. What I'm saying is that don't punish coaches like the ones on here who do their job and do everything to protect an arm just because there are some idiots out there. Instead of bringing everyone down why not try to find some ways to educate these idiots? I've never understood the rationale of holding everyone back to protect the lower end (and no I'm not talking about players - I'm talking about coaches).

If you don't understand how it holds player's back then I don't know what to tell you. Telling a kid who can routinely throw a 100 pitches without harm to their body to stop at 80 is holding them back. Push kids in a safe manner because it can be done.

No the reason to have pitchers throw more is because they CAN do it not because the ones behind them aren't as good. You stick with pitchers who are SAFELY getting the job done and when they can't then you go to the next guy because you taught him to pitch. I agree with developing more pitchers but why run 4 or 5 pitchers out for a 7 inning game when the first one has barely broken a sweat?

Ok so your team's pitcher throws 70 in 3 innings and you're questioning my usage of pitchers? You're basically questioning the win at all costs mentality that you think we have? You're saying why throw 100 pitches when 80 is just good enough? Yet your guy goes 70 in 3 and you think he's cruising? Come on now don't you see the double standard going on? With me if my guy is at 70 in 3 it would probably take a miracle for him to go out there for the 4th. I'm getting one of those other studs up and using them until they start to lose it.

You don't turn a 5 - 2 game over to a young pitcher because you need to win the game. Best example is we played a bigger school last night and beat them 9 - 7. We used a Junior to start and two Seniors to close it out because they were our best options last night against a team who is a very good team. Tonight we played a conference game against a team that has either finished last or next to last for as long as we can remember. We started a talented Sophomore who has struggled for us throughout the season and then finished with a Freshman who has single digit innings. We won 7 - 1 and if we used one of our front line pitchers there is a chance of a no hitter and probably a flat out dominating performance. That's how you use a pitching staff to develop more pitchers. The Freshman came in and struck out the first 7 guys he faced so that's a pretty impressive feat......yet he would allow one or two base runners each inning (of three) because he sometimes missed his spots and got hit. He does this against the better team we faced the night before and he's impersonating a Christmas tree - he will get lit up.

You can't yank a pitcher in a heartbeat. Last night in our close game our last pitcher probably didn't get a great warm up. He was our starting 3B and when we came in to hit he got a quick trip to the bullpen. He was able to get a pretty good number of throws but not the number of pitches we have our starters get in pregame. I felt he was close and the 8 warm ups would get him there. Yet due to umpire incompetence (I'm sorry umps but it's true) he only got 5 warm ups. Was he fully 100% warm? Honestly, I doubt it but he was around 95% which was a best case scenario in this situation. There's times when the stuff hits the fan and you can't get the next guy warmed up quick enough. There are only so many trips the catcher can make to the mound. Go with the ones who give you a chance to win.

I have no idea how you see it that I'm arguing both sides at the same time? That comment makes no sense. You go with your best that you have that day and then when he's out of gas you go with the next best option. How is that arguing both sides? Go out and ocmpete with your best while protecting arms is all I've been saying and that's not arguing both sides. I'm sorry if you can't see that.

quote:

Originally posted by AntzDad:

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:

quote:

Originally posted by AntzDad:
I'll try to answer this. As for what benefit the player will get- who knows?

But, the team might like the results. It is a team game, right?

OK, then what you’re saying is, W’s and L’s take precedence over a kid’s health or safety. IOW, winning at all costs is all that matters. Sorry, that’s a concept I believe in for professional sports, but that’s not what we’re talking about.

This is what you wrote:
he’s conditioned well and able to throw 100+ pitches with no ill effects

You say he can do it. So, how are his health or safety negatively affected? If I am mis-intepreting this, maybe that's why no one else has answered- no one understands your question. If you are trying to trick me into saying 'no kid should ever throw 100 pitches in a game', that's not going to happen because I don't believe it. Some kids can.

Antzdad I think this is a great answer to his question. I don't think he's ever heard an answer he likes because the question is loaded on his end to not get the answer he wants. He wants to hear that 80 is better than 100 even if the pitcher is capable of going 100. Well........yeah 80 is better than 100 and it's better than 90 and even slightly better than 85. But you can't just look at number of pitches. You have to look at if he's lost velocity or not, you have to look at his mechanics and several other factors. It might be a case where 80 pitches IS this kid's limit and therefore get him out. But due to all those factors his limit might be 100. Those extra 20 pitches in good shape won't hurt him but those extra 20 pitches WILL hurt him at some point if there are issues there.

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:

quote:

Originally posted by AntzDad:

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
The only way to do that with any validity in the results, is to have a national database that listed all pitchers, the number of pitches for every outing, the date of any complaint of any kind of discomfort, and the date and results any visits to Drs, trainers, or the like. Good luck getting one.

A Carfax for pitchers!



"Here’s a question I always ask in these discussions, and so far no one’s been able to answer it very well at all. Assuming he’s conditioned well and able to throw 100+ pitches with no ill effects, just exactly what benefit does that player get from the pitches over say 80? "

I'll try to answer this. As for what benefit the player will get- who knows?

But, the team might like the results. It is a team game, right?

Wrong. Kids with DI scholarship potential means Baseball is part of REAL life which is not a team game unless you are Communist.

When a kid blows out his arm the other players and the parents of kids not pitching won't be chipping in to help him with college. They won't go to work an pay him for lost dollars playing professional ball. They might come back and buy him a drink in the local bar and relive Glory days when they were medicore and the kid with the big arm carried them to the title. Heck I could even write a song about it....wait that's been done.

Please everyone get perspective...it is a meaningless game UNLESS you have real talent and then it is a BUSINESS. To think otherwise is simply pie in the sky not based in reality.

I know you won't care one bit about my opinion and that's cool because this post has made me think twice about you. This is a horrible attitude and you need to not let your son(s) play baseball until they get to college since that's when it matters according to you.

I don't get your analogy on the other members of the team won't be chipping in to help with college if they blow out an arm. They aren't going to help him if he plays four years and is a flat out stud with no health issues. What does other guys paying for college of a hurt player has to do with anything? There are ton of guys in colleges who turn out to be that stud for four years and never sniff the MLB draft and only get 25 - 60% of their schooling paid for. There are a ton of guys in colleges who get hurt at some point and never return. Both still have to pay for their education to some degree so what does injuries have to do with anything. What if that stud is crossing the street and gets hit by a car? Where are his team mates to shoulder some of that cost now?

When you CHOOSE to be part of a team that means you get to participate in all the celebrations that come with any and all wins. But the flip side is that means you have to accept the negatives that come with losing and this includes injuries. If the coaching staff has done everything in their power to protect player health and an injury still happens the only thing you can do is chalk it up to bad luck. Sad but it happens. That's life so you might as well enjoy the heck out of it since nobody is ever guaranteed to step foot on a team at the next level.

Let me ask you this - if high school games are meaningless then what does your son do / did when he played and his team scored that winning run in the bottom of the 7th to beat their rival, win conference, advance in the playoffs or any other "huge" moment? Did he celebrate with his buddies on the field or did he start packing his stuff up since it didn't mean anything.

I think you're the one who needs to get perspective.

In regards to HS baseball, and I’m sorry if this was brought up already, but there are safe guards that are built in to place if you want them. First there is the coach, this one doesn’t always work, and that’s why this thread is being talked about. But there are many good coaches out there who do not put their player in jeopardy and do use common sense. Then there is the player himself who could tell the coach if he thinks 90, 100, 105, 110… pitches is too many. This of course is probably the hardest because the player is usually programmed to just play. But he can voice his concern.

But the most important one in this equation is the parent. That is the safe guard, that is the fail safe or should be, that has the biggest voice. Some parents, as we see in this thread have no problems with their son, a pitcher, throwing “X” amount of pitches if everything is right for the pitcher. So who am I to tell them otherwise? Some parents have a problem with the number of “X” pitches being thrown. If a parent truly wants their son to only throw a certain amount of pitches then step up and say something to the coach, before the season or before the next start. Why not hold yourself as accountable as the coach? How can you wag your finger at your son’s coach behind his back and not say anything? If you as a parent think it’s wrong then say it, voice it, but I don’t know if you should try to impose your safe guards on another with a written pitch count rule because you refuse to hold your self as accountable as you hold the coach.

I also think it’s wrong to judge a parent or player who has future health concerns for their son or themself, and tells a coach “That’s enough”. Big win for the team or not…That’s a parents and players decision which should trump a coach’s decision or a fan of the teams opinions and feelings. Because of the crazy pitch counts that happen at times, they have earned that right.

Do I think the amount of pitches thrown in this game that started the thread is ridiculous and wrong? Yes I do, but there was a coach, a player and most importantly parents who obviously did not have a problem with it, so who am I to tell them otherwise.

I saw a breakdown where one kid threw 154 pitches while the other threw 193. I could see throwing 154 in the right weather and the right rest once in a must win playoff game. But not the regular season. 193 is just insane.

In many states this wouldn't be an issue. Many states now have ten inning Sun-Sat limits. The kid who threw 193 went fifteen innings. Innings limits may not protect the wild pitcher. But it's a start.

Coach2709,

I think you have misunderstood my post. I do luvbaseball. It is a great game and the competitiion is good for the body and soul.

My son's team won the State championship in Virginia last year and he (and I) was as excited as any other player or parent and he was in the dogpile too. He is not a pitcher. Despite the ring if he wants to go to the movies he better bring his $10 becasue it has zero value in the Real world. 6 Billion people don't care that he won a State Championship and they all can't be wrong.

My other perspective is that for players with the talent to go to the next level which clearly the two pitchers that are the subject of the OP are then they have an obligation to take care of themselves because noone else will.

This means I am clear eyed about what the ultimate meaning of HS baseball is. We need to avoid misty eyed Field of Dreams thinking. For most kids it is the last they will play but for some it is the entry to the next level. So if these two wreck their arms for the local HS none of the kids that they play with will feel one iota of responsibility to help him out for a missed opportunity for the risk and sacrifice he made for them. Has anyone heard about the rich kids Dad sending the local stud who blew out his arm to old State U so he could get his education? If it happens it would be so rare as to be very noteworthy. On the other hand there are thousands of stories about the kid who blew out his arm at 17, 18, 19 and is now scraping by.

So my position remains that when you have the talent to take any excessive physical risk for ANY baseball game short of Professional ball where you are being compensated is simply foolish because in the big picture the value of winning compared to what is at risk is totally out of balance.

If folks don't like the term meaningless to describe HS ball I would be curious how you would describe it? How do people here feel about HS gymnastics/swimming/band and God forbid s****r if you don't have a child involved?

My son threw 105 in 5 innings in a JV game the other night. He had thrown exactly 1 inning (8 pitches) in the previous 17 days...INCLUDING ZERO AT PRACTICE. I wasn't at the game, but essentially told my wife, who was, to tell my son he was not to go back in for the 6th inning. The coach was ****ed off. After the game, he told my son...and this was overheard by other players...

"What's pitch count matter if your arm doesn't hurt?"

quote:

So my position remains that when you have the talent to take any excessive physical risk for ANY baseball game short of Professional ball where you are being compensated is simply foolish because in the big picture the value of winning compared to what is at risk is totally out of balance.

I agree, but where do you draw the line on what is foolish and the competition and the desire to improve? IMO, every HS player has room for improvement.

Should HS basketball players take a charge or dive for a loose ball? Should HS football players try to avoid collisions? Colleges and pro baseball want competitive kids. How can a competitive HS kid think about protecting themself because of what is in the future.

I think that is where coaching comes in. The best coaches should keep things from being excessive.

From a scouting standpoint. I love those two kids who threw 347 pitches. No doubt about whether they will play for keeps. Now we only have to worry about if they will be healthy enough to compete.

Was it dumb? You bet! Sometimes real competitors do real dumb things like run into a wall. Coaches are suppose to protect them when possible. Coaches can't usually stop someone from running into the wall, but they sure as hell can stop someone from throwing 190 pitches!

PG-

Players want to play and injuries happen on routine plays and I get that and really never contested the point. What I've objected to is the concept of winning these games while taking needless risk to players to the true value of actually winning the game.

The unwarranted abuse cannot be justified and your point is the grown ups (coaches & parents) are supposed to be looking out for them within some sensible framework is dead on. That didn't happen here.

quote:

Originally posted by Buckeye 2015:
My son threw 105 in 5 innings in a JV game the other night. He had thrown exactly 1 inning (8 pitches) in the previous 17 days...INCLUDING ZERO AT PRACTICE. I wasn't at the game, but essentially told my wife, who was, to tell my son he was not to go back in for the 6th inning. The coach was ****ed off. After the game, he told my son...and this was overheard by other players...

"What's pitch count matter if your arm doesn't hurt?"

He has it backwards. The intent of the pitch count is to prevent overuse of arms that don't hurt. If when the arm does hurt that pitch count doesn't matter--because it's already time to stop, regardless of the count.

I've watched this debate without having a clear idea of the best way to handle this risk management problem.

It's clear that elevated pitch counts are associated with increased risk of injury. That much we know.

However, there is much we do not know: different pitchers have different limits . . . no one knows what any individual pitcher's limit is . . . it's seldom possible to associate a particular incident of overuse with a particular injury . . . it's never possible to associate a particular incident of overuse with increased long-term risk for the individual pitcher.

The problem with not legislating a solution is that more pitchers might get overused and hurt. But the problem with legislating a solution is that it's not susceptible to a one-size-fits-all solution. Furthermore, none of the proposed rules I've seen address the related risk factors like off-season rest and pre-season conditioning.

Being by nature a lover of individual freedom and a skeptic of the power of regulations to make people healthy, wealthy, or wise, I would like to embrace the don't-try-to-legislate-common-sense point of view.

On the other hand, it would be wrong to use what we don't know, can't measure, and can't prove as an excuse not to act responsibly and prudently in light of what we do know and in light of what we can reasonably assume.

Perhaps it would be helpful for someone to develop and build general acceptance of a program that describes what common sense looks like in action for coaches of teams at various age levels. How do you rest and condition pitchers? How do you help young pitchers know which sensations to play through and which ones to report immediately? What factors help coaches distinguish between the rubber-armed prodigy and the pitcher whose impending injury just isn't apparent yet? What are normal periods of rest and what factors should be considered before deviating from them? What are your default ranges of acceptable pitch counts? Under what circumstances to you adjust them up or down for a particular player. Develop a code of responsible pitcher development and use. Teach it. Spread it. Refine it. Get people to voluntarily use best practices. Let's treat this complex problem with the respect it deserves.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:

I do know that there is a limit and 150-200 pitch counts are ridiculous and very dangerous for most human beings.

First off, I am not saying I condone the pitch counts or amount of innings thrown by these young men. But I'd like to pose a Devil's Advocate type of question for those here. I have pitched since I was ten years old. The most innings I've ever thrown in a game was 10, and the most innings I've ever thrown in a game was 138 (not in the same game). Last summer, as a 21 year old, I had Tommy John Surgery after pitching several times during my college season on short rest. Last season my pitch counts per appearance were as follows:

-105 pitches, 9 innings
-98 pitches, 7 1/3 innings
-63 pitches, 5 innings (relief)
-112 pitches, 8 innings
-107 pitches, 9 innings
-121 pitches, 8 2/3 innings
-51 pitches, 3 innings (relief)
-12 pitches, 1/3 innings (came out in the 1st inning due to my elbow hurting)

With the knowledge of my background, and the fact that I do believe overuse directly contributed to the four-inch scar on my left elbow, here is my question:

Who determines how many pitches is too many pitches? Who conditions these pitchers appropriately and makes the decision that a certain pitch count is the right pitch count parameter?

If a pitcher is fully developed, and properly conditioned, who's to say he can't throw this many pitches?

Once again as a disclaimer, I become wary of my college teammates when they reach triple digits, just like everyone else does. But why?

Josh,
Having followed your season closely last year via the internet, as you mention, the days in between your appearances were, several times, awfully short, as I recall.
While I am probably not completely accurate, you had 2 lengthy appearance on the Florida trip, one in relief and one start, just a few days apart. I believe there was on other similar week after the team returned to NY??
Might be just me, but it would also be helpful to know the days between those appearances you listed?

infielddad- Surely. Wasn't trying to deceive in any way.

quote:

-105 pitches, 9 innings- March 13
-98 pitches, 7 1/3 innings- March 17
-63 pitches, 5 innings (relief)- March 29
-112 pitches, 8 innings- April 2
-107 pitches, 9 innings- April 7
-121 pitches, 8 2/3 innings- April 14
-51 pitches, 3 innings (relief)- April 18
-12 pitches, 1/3 innings (came out in the 1st inning due to my elbow hurting)- April 22

for reference above: http://oneontaathletics.com/cu...ll/2011/teamstat.htm

I wanted to lay out my experience just to provide some background. I believe that the short rest was an important factor in my resulting injury. I do point blame partially at my coach, but I also do take a lot of responsibility myself. I should have known that my arm was being worn down, and I should have been mature enough and knowledgable enough to be aware of the potential implications of my actions.

I am a proponent of pitch counts. I think that they are beneficial to pitchers. My question is why are the pitch count limitations that are currently in place generally accepted to be appropriate? Is there any research and evidence behind this indicating that these figures are truly optimal for the pitchers?

quote:

infielddad- Surely. Wasn't trying to deceive in any way.

Gosh, I know that and am embarrassed to the core if my post created that feeling!
My perspective is the short rest is very important.
What I won't ask you to describe is your competitive drive. All of these interact in some way.
What none of us ever know is how this information can be applied in a specific situation prospectively.
We learn a lot from the rear view mirror for sure.
Again, Josh, I am really sorry if my post came across poorly.

Don't worry, I wasn't offended by your request. I realize that me leaving out those specific details could potentially misconstrue my information to those that aren't fully aware. I do agree that competitive drive has a lot to do with it, but I do also believe that competitive drive should be directly related to maturity. In order to have a competitive drive one needs to understand what is good and bad for that person as an individual and for the team as a whole. My extended outings on short rest eventually caused me to miss three important conference starts and the potential NCAA tournament starts I would have had if I did not get hurt. That hurt my team. My extended outings on short rest also eventually caused me to fly to the Andrews Institute and get cut open, which resulted in this permanent zipper on the inside of my elbow, and my inability to pitch this spring (which goes back to the team).

Either way, rest is crucial. Pitch count maintenance is also crucial, because in almost every instance they go hand-in-hand. The question, though, is why are these figures in place?

It's very easy to play Monday morning quarterback. It's not as easy to do so with research to support your claim.

There are never easy answers to this situation. Dr Andrews, a friend maybe has the best answers. HS coaches should purchase his video and listen to a qualified MD.

HS Baseball is "development" of the player for future career either in baseball or other form of employment. '347 pitches is NOT development.


The HS coach is the "leader" for the short season of baseball. He is a teacher and as a teacher, he attends seminars in education. He should also attend seminars in player development.

"347 pitches is totally unnecessary". Translated it means that the coach has "no faith"or trust in his other pitchers.This team is the definition of the coaches philosophy. He has a 10 player team. Questions: what were the weather conditions, the wind direction and did the
players wear a long sleeve undershirt and a jacket between innings.

In this situation, the game is close and if it was a minor league game, the Manager is ordered by the Farm Director to remove the pitcher after a specific # of pitches.

When we travel Internationally, our coaches are pro scouts and minor league managers and pitchers never throw a complete game. We are developing players, not abuse the arm.

I am sure the Louisiana College Coach's for the boys has presented his "feelings".



Bob

quote:

In order to have a competitive drive one needs to understand what is good and bad for that person as an individual and for the team as a whole. My extended outings on short rest eventually caused me to miss three important conference starts and the potential NCAA tournament starts I would have had if I did not get hurt. That hurt my team. My extended outings on short rest also eventually caused me to fly to the Andrews Institute and get cut open, which resulted in this permanent zipper on the inside of my elbow, and my inability to pitch this spring (which goes back to the team).

I won't argue with you on any of the above.
What is missing from your accepting responsibility is the fact you never put your name in the line up or decided to trot in from the bullpen and tell the starter he was done.
That was, partially, my point in the post earlier in this thread on the coaching which led to the end result for the former D3 pitcher of the year who threw about 35 innings in 12 days, using a hard slider which was very effective.
Maybe I am being to harsh, in the rear view mirror for that situation, except it was troubling even then.