First of all, I don't want to come off sounding like some kind of expert. This is an issue worth discussion, but not sure there are any absolute answers that pertain to each individual.
All I can really go on is experience. I'm not very smart, but I do have some experience dealing with this subject.
JH, it has been my personal experience that most serious arm injuries are caused in similar fashion to your situation. IMO Pitch counts are important and it is dangerous to throw too many pitches in one day. However, most of the injuries I know about were a result of insufficient recovery time rather than any specific number of pitches thrown. (Pitching before the arm is ready to pitch). This can happen in several ways... even an extra long inning spent in the dugout or a rain delay. More often it is a short time between starts or coming back too soon. Pitchers should not pitch during recovery periods... It is extremly dangerous. I could give many examples of pitchers receiving TJ surgery that never threw a high pitch count. I can give many examples of pitchers having serious arm injuries from insufficient recovery.
My own son had Tommy John surgery after hurting his arm in a game. He started the game, pitched well for 6 innings or so (I think he was around 70 some pitches). Then there was a long rain delay. The scout who signed him was at the game but left saying he's done for the day. To my surprise, he went back in to pitch once the game started back up and that was it, he really was done. Here is the game box score... Yankees White Sox June 23 2000
BTW, parents don't call the manager and tell him their son shouldn't be pitching. Anyway, it wasn't the pitch count, it was the rain delay. He shouldn't have pitched for at least 4 days.
I cringe when I see kids pitch too soon after throwing more than 30-40 pitches. It is a recipe for disaster. Also, I think this part of the equation is the most overlooked part. Most people get stuck on the pitch counts when more often short rest like JH, or any other thing that falls under the insufficient recovery period are an even bigger problem.IMO
Many pitchers throw 120 pitches in one day. But there aren't many arms that can withstand 60 pitches on one day and another 60 pitches the next day. So that same 120 pitches is all together different!
I think most all of us want to keep it as safe as possible for pitchers. But pitching is not safe. Following all the rules doesn't always work. Stupidity doesn't always fail. But stupidity can be very dangerous. BTW, I am an expert on stupidity, I have 65 years of experience being stupid.
quote:Originally posted by Bob Williams:
There are never easy answers to this situation. Dr Andrews, a friend maybe has the best answers. HS coaches should purchase his video and listen to a qualified MD.
HS Baseball is "development" of the player for future career either in baseball or other form of employment. '347 pitches is NOT development.
The HS coach is the "leader" for the short season of baseball. He is a teacher and as a teacher, he attends seminars in education. He should also attend seminars in player development.
"347 pitches is totally unnecessary". Translated it means that the coach has "no faith"or trust in his other pitchers.This team is the definition of the coaches philosophy. He has a 10 player team. Questions: what were the weather conditions, the wind direction and did the
players wear a long sleeve undershirt and a jacket between innings.
In this situation, the game is close and if it was a minor league game, the Manager is ordered by the Farm Director to remove the pitcher after a specific # of pitches.
When we travel Internationally, our coaches are pro scouts and minor league managers and pitchers never throw a complete game. We are developing players, not abuse the arm.
I am sure the Louisiana College Coach's for the boys has presented his "feelings".
Bob, I completely agree with all of the above. I'd be interested to see if Dr. Andrews would be able to come out with some research stating what he feels is ideal for pitchers at all age levels. Obviously there are many variables...biological age, conditioning, mechanics, etc. But the Little League limitations that he set are generalizations as well. I'm not suggesting an implementation of a pitch count RULE, but as you suggested, coaches attend seminars and gain knowledge about such things. More information could only be beneficial. When I was at the Andrews Institute last summer I was absolutely blown away by the facilities they have. There is no doubt in my mind that they have the capabilities to run such biomechanical studies at the Athlete's Performance section of the building in Pensacola...and who better to run this research than Dr. Andrews
quote:Originally posted by infielddad:
What is missing from your accepting responsibility is the fact you never put your name in the line up or decided to trot in from the bullpen and tell the starter he was done.
That was, partially, my point in the post earlier in this thread on the coaching which led to the end result for the former D3 pitcher of the year who threw about 35 innings in 12 days, using a hard slider which was very effective.
Maybe I am being to harsh, in the rear view mirror for that situation, except it was troubling even then.
IMO, all coaches should have a good enough relationship with his players, combined with enough sense of security within his capabilities as a coach, to trust his player's wishes. That communication was very much present here at my school...my coach was extremely trusting of my teammates and me. We worked hard and were responsible with our bodies. Yet while I was well aware that the short rest could hinder my abilities for the future, I continued to throw without worrying about it. From his perspective...he was certainly irresponsible by considering my high level of performance ahead of my potential well being, and therefore he deserves some of the blame as well. But to say that the coach is the person solely responsible for my injury is, IMO, wrong. No one knows my body better than me.
The pitcher you're speaking of is a story I am familiar with, and while I don't know him personally, I'd bet that his sentiment may echo mine in a similar fashion. The rear view mirror isn't always a great view, and I completely agree with everything you said, but there are often many other circumstances involved in injurious happenstance than just one finger-pointing incident.
Pg come watch in chicago area we see it all summer with legion and has been mentioned all the time, 9 innings and then coming the last 3 the next day and atsrting another a couple days later. It is usually bragged about in the local papers.
Hard to watch
Hard to watch
PG- I noticed your post after posting above, but I'll respond separately because I think it's important enough to deserve it's own notice.
Your son's case is a perfect example that no one, truly no one, knows the right way to go about things. Joe Torre, one of the greatest managers of all time, decides to put your son back in after a rain delay while he was pitching for one of the greatest teams of all time. Your son was pitching a great game and ended up receiving a no decision after a blown save by the greatest closer of all time. Yet if your son had continued pitching after the rain delay and did not succumb to injury, then there is a good possibility the box score for that game would never have been posted here. Conversely, there is no guarantee that the particular occurrence you mentioned was the determining factor for his resulting TJ surgery. It could have just been coincidence.
Do I think your son should have re-entered the game? No, absolutely not. I don't question MLB managers too much...and especially not one like Torre...but as I said, no one is perfect. There are so many different variables that go into pitcher injuries that I believe it is nearly impossible to quantify and therefore I feel that many fingers are pointed simply because it's the easy thing to do. Just as I agree that the 347 pitches thrown between two HS pitchers is too much, and I agree that your son should have never began the 7th inning that day in Chicago, I also agree that it could happen to anyone.
Your son's case is a perfect example that no one, truly no one, knows the right way to go about things. Joe Torre, one of the greatest managers of all time, decides to put your son back in after a rain delay while he was pitching for one of the greatest teams of all time. Your son was pitching a great game and ended up receiving a no decision after a blown save by the greatest closer of all time. Yet if your son had continued pitching after the rain delay and did not succumb to injury, then there is a good possibility the box score for that game would never have been posted here. Conversely, there is no guarantee that the particular occurrence you mentioned was the determining factor for his resulting TJ surgery. It could have just been coincidence.
Do I think your son should have re-entered the game? No, absolutely not. I don't question MLB managers too much...and especially not one like Torre...but as I said, no one is perfect. There are so many different variables that go into pitcher injuries that I believe it is nearly impossible to quantify and therefore I feel that many fingers are pointed simply because it's the easy thing to do. Just as I agree that the 347 pitches thrown between two HS pitchers is too much, and I agree that your son should have never began the 7th inning that day in Chicago, I also agree that it could happen to anyone.
JH,
There truly is something special about those who have competitive fire.
Following the recent story on Brian Wilson, he actually probably damaged his UCL pitching in the 9th inning on Colorado last Thursday.
He threw one pitch and everyone knew there was an issue.
Told his manager and catcher he twisted his ankle, t was fine and he was staying in the game.
His velocity drop was noticeable on the next pitch.
When many could not even throw a baseball, he finished the inning out of respect for his teammates and to get the starter a W.
I think that might be part of what happens on lesser stages than MLB.
The "fire" often creates the success and contributes to the "risk."
There truly is something special about those who have competitive fire.
Following the recent story on Brian Wilson, he actually probably damaged his UCL pitching in the 9th inning on Colorado last Thursday.
He threw one pitch and everyone knew there was an issue.
Told his manager and catcher he twisted his ankle, t was fine and he was staying in the game.
His velocity drop was noticeable on the next pitch.
When many could not even throw a baseball, he finished the inning out of respect for his teammates and to get the starter a W.
I think that might be part of what happens on lesser stages than MLB.
The "fire" often creates the success and contributes to the "risk."
2bagger,
I've seen it many times. Even as recently as last fall at our tournament in Jupiter. A pitcher threw a complete game the first day (Thursday night). Then he threw in relief 3 or 4 innings on Monday. All that was OK until I saw him warm up to come in their next game. The team was coached by a MLB scout. The pitcher is a big prospect.
I let everyone know my feelings about that whether they wanted to hear it or not.
Once again... You should never take the mound when your arm is in a recovery period. To me, this is the most dangerous of all.
I've seen it many times. Even as recently as last fall at our tournament in Jupiter. A pitcher threw a complete game the first day (Thursday night). Then he threw in relief 3 or 4 innings on Monday. All that was OK until I saw him warm up to come in their next game. The team was coached by a MLB scout. The pitcher is a big prospect.
I let everyone know my feelings about that whether they wanted to hear it or not.
Once again... You should never take the mound when your arm is in a recovery period. To me, this is the most dangerous of all.
JH;
Maybe you can meet again w/ Dr Andrews and create a program for the coaches I-phone or i-pads, where they can "tune-in" to Dr Andrews with specific questions.
When I visited Dr Andrews with my son [shoulder injury] we had a long discussion on my involvement in USA Baseball, Area Code games and International. We toured his rehab institute.
Think about it! A pitch count "app" depending on the specific pitcher's age, size, weight, arm strength, geographic location of his school.
Bob <webmd>
Maybe you can meet again w/ Dr Andrews and create a program for the coaches I-phone or i-pads, where they can "tune-in" to Dr Andrews with specific questions.
When I visited Dr Andrews with my son [shoulder injury] we had a long discussion on my involvement in USA Baseball, Area Code games and International. We toured his rehab institute.
Think about it! A pitch count "app" depending on the specific pitcher's age, size, weight, arm strength, geographic location of his school.
Bob <webmd>
Bob- That actually sounds like a great idea. I'm supposed to call down to his office next week, I'll mention it when I do. Could be an incredible project to get into if he's interested/it's possible.
infielddad,
Usually the first thing to go is the velocity. Some injuries are noticeable on one certain pitch. Sometimes the injury is not noticed as quickly, but almost always the velocity drops. My son pitched in Detroit the next start after that game. Topped out at 86!
Josh, I don't really blame anyone for what happened. Just goes to show even the very best do stupid things at times. If things would have turned out differently, I would have still considered it stupid. In fact, I bet he would too.
Usually the first thing to go is the velocity. Some injuries are noticeable on one certain pitch. Sometimes the injury is not noticed as quickly, but almost always the velocity drops. My son pitched in Detroit the next start after that game. Topped out at 86!
Josh, I don't really blame anyone for what happened. Just goes to show even the very best do stupid things at times. If things would have turned out differently, I would have still considered it stupid. In fact, I bet he would too.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Josh, I don't really blame anyone for what happened. Just goes to show even the very best do stupid things at times. If things would have turned out differently, I would have still considered it stupid. In fact, I bet he would too.
Yep!!
It is hard to believe that anyone can defend any type of overuse whether it is to this extreme or not. Additionally, some of the justifications for potentially causing physical harm to a young person regardless of their ability to pitch beyond high school are distributing. Some have insinuated that as long as there is no pain the player is fine. It is my understanding a lot arm injuries from over use don’t appear until years down the road. I know of several pitchers that had a “rubber arm”. They never had any pain until they did. Sometimes by the time they experience pain it’s too late. They were done as a pitcher before they finished high school. I always coached my son and thought that I was pretty careful with him. He was never sore much less hurt until he was. So you may think that your stud junior pitcher can handle throwing 100+ pitches per game until he can’t.
Josh;
Producing the "app" is simple, however convincing the youth coaches to use it will be the "hurdle".
Northern California HS baseball coaches contacted me to discuss in a group seminar - "Psychology of leadership". Basically "what can I do as a Coach to improve"
Rick Bordi former MLB pitcher offered to assist. We offered a free SSK fungo bat and set a $25.00 fee. "NO INTEREST" from the coaches.
Bob
Producing the "app" is simple, however convincing the youth coaches to use it will be the "hurdle".
Northern California HS baseball coaches contacted me to discuss in a group seminar - "Psychology of leadership". Basically "what can I do as a Coach to improve"
Rick Bordi former MLB pitcher offered to assist. We offered a free SSK fungo bat and set a $25.00 fee. "NO INTEREST" from the coaches.
Bob
quote:They never had any pain until they did.
Simply put, speaks volumes and correct!
NT, how did your son get hurt? What was the injury?
quote:Originally posted by NT:
It is hard to believe that anyone can defend any type of overuse whether it is to this extreme or not. Additionally, some of the justifications for potentially causing physical harm to a young person regardless of their ability to pitch beyond high school are distributing. Some have insinuated that as long as there is no pain the player is fine. It is my understanding a lot arm injuries from over use don’t appear until years down the road. I know of several pitchers that had a “rubber arm”. They never had any pain until they did. Sometimes by the time they experience pain it’s too late. They were done as a pitcher before they finished high school. I always coached my son and thought that I was pretty careful with him. He was never sore much less hurt until he was. So you may think that your stud junior pitcher can handle throwing 100+ pitches per game until he can’t.
I agree 100%.
I am not surprised about Brian Wilson's injury. But the issue here is not about an established successful ML pitcher (making lots of money) and whose job is protected by the players union during injury 9he cannot be removed from the roster). It's about two young HS players who most likely are still developing and hoping to go onto play college ball or the next level someday, who may not have that happen because of someone's stupidity.
In defense of parents who allow this to happen, or think it's ok, I do believe that many really have no clue and often times feel intimidated that if they should step up and speak up their son will be benched.
Reality is that most of the players abused are so because they are the top producers and the coach isn't going to bench them anyway.
quote:Originally posted by luv baseball:
Coach2709,
I think you have misunderstood my post. I do luvbaseball. It is a great game and the competitiion is good for the body and soul.
My son's team won the State championship in Virginia last year and he (and I) was as excited as any other player or parent and he was in the dogpile too. He is not a pitcher. Despite the ring if he wants to go to the movies he better bring his $10 becasue it has zero value in the Real world. 6 Billion people don't care that he won a State Championship and they all can't be wrong.
My other perspective is that for players with the talent to go to the next level which clearly the two pitchers that are the subject of the OP are then they have an obligation to take care of themselves because noone else will.
This means I am clear eyed about what the ultimate meaning of HS baseball is. We need to avoid misty eyed Field of Dreams thinking. For most kids it is the last they will play but for some it is the entry to the next level. So if these two wreck their arms for the local HS none of the kids that they play with will feel one iota of responsibility to help him out for a missed opportunity for the risk and sacrifice he made for them. Has anyone heard about the rich kids Dad sending the local stud who blew out his arm to old State U so he could get his education? If it happens it would be so rare as to be very noteworthy. On the other hand there are thousands of stories about the kid who blew out his arm at 17, 18, 19 and is now scraping by.
So my position remains that when you have the talent to take any excessive physical risk for ANY baseball game short of Professional ball where you are being compensated is simply foolish because in the big picture the value of winning compared to what is at risk is totally out of balance.
If folks don't like the term meaningless to describe HS ball I would be curious how you would describe it? How do people here feel about HS gymnastics/swimming/band and God forbid s****r if you don't have a child involved?
Thank you for this post and I wish to apologize for the tone of my post towards you. I have a much better understanding of where you're coming from after readint his and pretty much agree with it. Probably my fault in missing your point but originally it read to me that you were saying it didn't matter period no matter what. I now realize that you are saying that pushing beyond reasonable limits and suffer the possibility for injury is not worth it. No argument here.
I would like to add to and possibly clarify where I was coming from. You're right that 65 billion people don't care that your son and his team won the state championship but who cares what they think? It was important to your son, his buddies, you, his coaches, his school and community. That is all the worth it needs for people.
But overall I agree with you in terms of it's not worth it to push them too far just to win.
I bet they have "rubber arms"...
quote:Originally posted by CPLZ:
I bet they have "rubber arms"...
Wow!!! So did I!!! Before this, of course...
How ironic that there's something in common!
quote:Originally posted by Bob Williams:
JH;
Maybe you can meet again w/ Dr Andrews and create a program for the coaches I-phone or i-pads, where they can "tune-in" to Dr Andrews with specific questions.
When I visited Dr Andrews with my son [shoulder injury] we had a long discussion on my involvement in USA Baseball, Area Code games and International. We toured his rehab institute.
Think about it! A pitch count "app" depending on the specific pitcher's age, size, weight, arm strength, geographic location of his school.
Bob <webmd>
Have you ever considered taking this concept to a younger level? When I got involved iwith my local youth little legue in 04, it was shocking at the lack of baseball knowledge that was present. Not that the dad/coaches wern't trying, it just seemed that there were very few involved in this league that had actual baseball experience. I know that leagues are always looking for ways to educate and assist the new coaches that are associated with the roll-over in youth baseball. Speaking as a former LL president I would not have thought twice about bringing in a person, at our expense, to talk about a topic like this and make it mandatory for all managers/coaches to attend. Be careful if you consider this, you may find ytourself on a speaking tour..lol
Coach2709- No harm no foul! 
Hope you are having a good season.
Hope you are having a good season.
quote:Originally posted by AntzDad:
NT, how did your son get hurt? What was the injury?
That's part of the problem with arm injuries there is usually not a single factor related to the injury and in his case there was not a clear diagnosis. I found out the hard way unless something shows up as being clearly broken on an x-ray or MRI the doctor is guessing, you better do your own homework. It is my belief that his shoulder problem was a combination of three things instability in the shoulder due to the amount of laxity in the shoulder (in my opinion this was the number one cause), over use, and multiple appearances during some tournaments.
There is a lot more to the story but bottom line from May 2009 until February 2011 he didn’t pitch at all competitively. I was probably over cautious but that is how it played out partly because of the timing of the injury and what I believe was a miss diagnosis by the doctor not once but twice. In addition to the fact that we more concerned about getting healthy for high school than we were worried about 12 and 13 year old ball. Now he is freshman and has been able pitch the last two seasons without any pain.
PG,
A pitcher on my son's HS team had UCL problems as a freshman and was shut down for about 8 weeks by an orthopedist.
Two years later as a junior he came in to pitch in the opener of a relatively meaningless spring break tournament game and was getting hit hard in the first inning. He started throwing almost all sliders and was effective from there on out going 3.1 innings. The HS coach called the pitches and strongly discouraged shaking off pitches. The next day he threw 3.2 effective innings. Dan Denham's dad was there watching and he counted 17 straight sliders at one point in the 3.2 innings. He had some less than complimentary things to say about the coach. It is possible that a few of them were changes. The next day the kid warmed up to throw if needed in the last innings of the final game of the tournament.
Fast forward to his senior season and the kid's velocity dropped as the season went along. He was the #2 starter and finished 4-4 in a very strong league throwing a lot of sliders, but also had a good change. He pitched in a "big" game at the end of the season despite what was most likely a torn UCL and when the other team's stud, an eventual first rounder, lined out so hard it almost knocked over the left fielder he got the win. If I remember the only thing at stake for them was playoff seeding for their team and they ended up in the play-in round anyways where they lost.
The player was voted most inspirational by his team mates and deserved it and of course never played after HS. I guess some people would say it was worth it. BTW, his friend who got very few innings while pitching at that school despite a high 80s fastball that eventually got up to about 93, got into their dream school through baseball, he didn't.
A pitcher on my son's HS team had UCL problems as a freshman and was shut down for about 8 weeks by an orthopedist.
Two years later as a junior he came in to pitch in the opener of a relatively meaningless spring break tournament game and was getting hit hard in the first inning. He started throwing almost all sliders and was effective from there on out going 3.1 innings. The HS coach called the pitches and strongly discouraged shaking off pitches. The next day he threw 3.2 effective innings. Dan Denham's dad was there watching and he counted 17 straight sliders at one point in the 3.2 innings. He had some less than complimentary things to say about the coach. It is possible that a few of them were changes. The next day the kid warmed up to throw if needed in the last innings of the final game of the tournament.
Fast forward to his senior season and the kid's velocity dropped as the season went along. He was the #2 starter and finished 4-4 in a very strong league throwing a lot of sliders, but also had a good change. He pitched in a "big" game at the end of the season despite what was most likely a torn UCL and when the other team's stud, an eventual first rounder, lined out so hard it almost knocked over the left fielder he got the win. If I remember the only thing at stake for them was playoff seeding for their team and they ended up in the play-in round anyways where they lost.
The player was voted most inspirational by his team mates and deserved it and of course never played after HS. I guess some people would say it was worth it. BTW, his friend who got very few innings while pitching at that school despite a high 80s fastball that eventually got up to about 93, got into their dream school through baseball, he didn't.
Saw it again lst night at my sons district opener. Opposing pitcher threw 143 pitches in 10 innings. He went back to the mound in the 11th and our Coach notified the Ump of the 10 inning rule. Kid was a little upset he had to be taken out. I have a feeling that their coach would have let him continue until the game was decided one way or the other. So sad to see!
Well I'm going to throw some good news into this thread. Our pitcher last night was at 70 pitches in the 6th inning and finished the game with around 85ish for the complete 7 inning game victory. Eight strike outs and no walks. The velocity in the 5, 6 and 7th innings was higher than it was in the first four innings. Never saw his mechanics get out of whack on any of his pitches either.
Very impressive performance. This is what coaches need to prepare their kids for and you do this by developing several pitchers. This kid is our #1 but we have four other pitchers who are close who can do what this guy can. Plus we have two younger pitchers we try to get innings for to help develop them.
Very impressive performance. This is what coaches need to prepare their kids for and you do this by developing several pitchers. This kid is our #1 but we have four other pitchers who are close who can do what this guy can. Plus we have two younger pitchers we try to get innings for to help develop them.
That is a very good outing. Kudos to that young man
My guy was at 75 last nite after 6. I wanted to take him out because i had one more guy i wanted to get on the mound for an inning of work... BUT,
he had a NO-No going; and he DID it. 90 pitches, plunked the 2nd kid, walked one in the 7th; diving catch in left field, pretty fun to watch.
I then sent him to 3rd base to play the second game and he blew out his shoulder on the 9th play he made!!! hahahahah ,.... that last paragraph was a joke....
he had a NO-No going; and he DID it. 90 pitches, plunked the 2nd kid, walked one in the 7th; diving catch in left field, pretty fun to watch.
I then sent him to 3rd base to play the second game and he blew out his shoulder on the 9th play he made!!! hahahahah ,.... that last paragraph was a joke....
hmmm... the shortest complete game that son had this year is 98 pitches. I think we are doing too much 0-2 nibbling. Should I start shouting pitch selection recommendations? 
Eye rolling is not working.
Eye rolling is not working.
The pitcher we faced yesterday threw 160 pitches. Our team won 6-5 in 7 innings. This stuff happens everywhere.
quote:Originally posted by warningtrack:
The pitcher we faced yesterday threw 160 pitches. Our team won 6-5 in 7 innings. This stuff happens everywhere.
I dont know what is worse... 160 pitches from a single player or 160 pitches in a 7 inning game. Those must have been some loonnnnngggggg innings.
quote:Originally posted by bballdad2016:quote:Originally posted by warningtrack:
The pitcher we faced yesterday threw 160 pitches. Our team won 6-5 in 7 innings. This stuff happens everywhere.
I dont know what is worse... 160 pitches from a single player or 160 pitches in a 7 inning game. Those must have been some loonnnnngggggg innings.
Very long.3-2 on most every batter. The kid struck out 13 and gave up 8 hits. 6 walks plus maybe 5 errors by his defense.
quote:Originally posted by warningtrack:
The pitcher we faced yesterday threw 160 pitches. Our team won 6-5 in 7 innings. This stuff happens everywhere.
160 in 7 innings is about 23 pitches per innings, IMO that's a lot and that does mean that he went long into counts. The funny part is that often you hear that pitchers struck out a lot of hitters, but IMO that's not being efficient unless they strike them out in 3 pitches. Why not not pitch to contact more often?
A well known pcoach told me that they use pitch counts as a learning tool, so that the pitcher can learn to manage his game. If a guy knows he gets 80 (using as an example) pitches and needs to get through 5 for the W, he better figure out how to work more efficiently.
Forgive me if this has already been answered. Is 120+ pitches, but below 130 too much for a high school athlete. What about 100+, but below 115?
Nicholas25- Pitch count rules are by and large circumstantial at this point in time. They are largely dependent on the player's conditioning and the amount of rest that he has had. However, I don't think anyone can give you a true set figure right now, there just isn't enough research available on the topic.
Nonetheless, I would say that most people would agree that every number you've given would be a bit high for a high school pitcher. As I said though, no one can be perfectly certain.
Nonetheless, I would say that most people would agree that every number you've given would be a bit high for a high school pitcher. As I said though, no one can be perfectly certain.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by warningtrack:
The pitcher we faced yesterday threw 160 pitches. Our team won 6-5 in 7 innings. This stuff happens everywhere.
160 in 7 innings is about 23 pitches per innings, IMO that's a lot and that does mean that he went long into counts. The funny part is that often you hear that pitchers struck out a lot of hitters, but IMO that's not being efficient unless they strike them out in 3 pitches. Why not not pitch to contact more often?
A well known pcoach told me that they use pitch counts as a learning tool, so that the pitcher can learn to manage his game. If a guy knows he gets 80 (using as an example) pitches and needs to get through 5 for the W, he better figure out how to work more efficiently.
I'd say the 5 errors are a factor here. Pitcher doesn't trust defense so he's trying to strike out everyone. I'm guessing there's some nibbling without good enough control to get it off the plate but too close to take.
quote:Originally posted by luv baseball:
I'd say the 5 errors are a factor here. Pitcher doesn't trust defense so he's trying to strike out everyone. I'm guessing there's some nibbling without good enough control to get it off the plate but too close to take.
One of the reasons I do so many whacky and different metrics, is for discussions like this one. One of those metrics is “Unnecessary Pitches”. They are defined as pitches being thrown after the 3rd out should have been made, akin to UERs. I’ve found that historically our pitchers are throwing a bit less than 5% of their pitches unnecessarily, and overall, all of the pitchers a tad bit over 5%.
I also track “Errors Made Behind” pitchers, and run support. Sometimes it’s hard to do, but usually you can see how the 3 work together. In the end, sometimes people don’t realize that there are a whole lot of factors that affect what goes on on the field, errors definitely being one of them. However, Its probable that while there might have been 5 errors in any given game, it may be that those errors didn’t cause even 1 extra pitch to be thrown. But even though that’s likely, every error did have an effect on the pitcher’s thought processes and how he proceeded.
This pitching stuff is really complicated!
quote:Originally posted by Nicholas25:
Forgive me if this has already been answered. Is 120+ pitches, but below 130 too much for a high school athlete. What about 100+, but below 115?
It depends on where you live and what you’re asking.
If you live in Vt., 120 is illegal in HS. Please see http://www.infosports.com/scor...mages/pitlimitsa.pdf and read Vt.’s pitching limitation rule. While you’re in there, take a look at La.’s rule, which is where all this pitches in the op took place, then take a look at the Tx. and Ca. rules too, and you’ll see where much of the problems lie. Vt. and Ca. take the health of their student athletes much more seriously than do La. and Tx., and that’s reflected in the rules for each of the states.
If you’re asking about how that number of pitches will affect different pitchers, then J H’s answer is fairly accurate.
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
hmmm... the shortest complete game that son had this year is 98 pitches. I think we are doing too much 0-2 nibbling. Should I start shouting pitch selection recommendations?
Time to do a little back patting.
One of the things I like to do is keep track of the starters and the number of pitches they threw, of course with a few other things as well.
Take a look at the link http://www.infosports.com/scor.../images/pitall10.pdf I think you’ll see you’ll see why the last 3 games our starters have thrown have amazed me.
On 4/19, our Soph starter threw 88 in 7 against a really good team. The team we played the last 2 games against isn’t a great team, but they don’t exactly stink either. But in any case our #1, a Sr and 3 year V starter threw 80 in 7 innings on the road. Then the very next day, our other Sr starter threw only 60 pitches in 6 innings at home. What was really amazing was, the kid who threw the 7th for us got them in only 8 pitches for a total of 68 for an entire 7 inning game! The strike percentages in all 3 games were sky high, and if I remember correctly, the 1st pitch strike percentages were even higher.
In case anyone thinks these are some kind of super studs, I assure you they’re pretty good, but ain’t any of them gonna get a ride or a contract very soon. The kid who threw the 1st game tops out at 84, the one who threw the 2nd game maybe 82-83, and the last kid 81 at best. But those suckers can sure throw a lot of strikes, and that forces hitters to swing or sit down.
In 1 week last season, my 2013 had the following take place:
Threw 80 pitches on a Monday night for Soph team...
Threw another 60 pitches on Thursday for Sophs...no problems yet.
2013 was then invited by the varsity coach to join the Varsity team Friday night and for a tournament trip that weekend.
On Friday night, to our surprise, they put him in and after 2 inn (32 pitches) I voiced my concern to the Soph coach that it seemed like a lot of pitches for the week with little rest. The Soph coach approached the varsity coach and suggested that my son be done. Well, as my son enters the dugout, the varsity coach says, "Since your tired, you can stay home this weekend!".
It seems to be a clear example of how some coaches intimidate kids into throwing ...even when it's not in the best interest of the kid and his arm. My kid would have loved to have gone to the tournament to support the team, but the coach sent the signal that there is a penalty to be paid if you don't pitch when I want you to.
I'm sure many of you have seen this type of retribution and intimidation before.
There are many great coaches out there that value their athletes...others have a different agenda.
Threw 80 pitches on a Monday night for Soph team...
Threw another 60 pitches on Thursday for Sophs...no problems yet.
2013 was then invited by the varsity coach to join the Varsity team Friday night and for a tournament trip that weekend.
On Friday night, to our surprise, they put him in and after 2 inn (32 pitches) I voiced my concern to the Soph coach that it seemed like a lot of pitches for the week with little rest. The Soph coach approached the varsity coach and suggested that my son be done. Well, as my son enters the dugout, the varsity coach says, "Since your tired, you can stay home this weekend!".
It seems to be a clear example of how some coaches intimidate kids into throwing ...even when it's not in the best interest of the kid and his arm. My kid would have loved to have gone to the tournament to support the team, but the coach sent the signal that there is a penalty to be paid if you don't pitch when I want you to.
I'm sure many of you have seen this type of retribution and intimidation before.
There are many great coaches out there that value their athletes...others have a different agenda.
We have a starting pitcher, and we are located in TN, who has pitched six complete games this season. He has threw between 106-125 pitches in all six complete games. Now, we started out throwing program in November and he has always been on at least four days rest. Very interesting topic. For some reason I think 120 is just "a lot" of pitches, but not detrimental, but 130+ is too much. Just my perception. I do understand rest between starts or appearances, type of pitcher, weather, and many others things go into this discussion.
quote:Originally posted by Nicholas25:
We have a starting pitcher, and we are located in TN, who has pitched six complete games this season. He has threw between 106-125 pitches in all six complete games. Now, we started out throwing program in November and he has always been on at least four days rest. Very interesting topic. For some reason I think 120 is just "a lot" of pitches, but not detrimental, but 130+ is too much. Just my perception. I do understand rest between starts or appearances, type of pitcher, weather, and many others things go into this discussion.
The pure numbers can really be misleading, which is why things like PAP and PAP^3 were developed, and why folks like myself have tried to factor in other things. Here’s the reason. PAP^3 tries to make it apparent that the 10 pitches from 110 to 120 are more dangerous than the ones from 100 to 110, but not as dangerous as the ones from 120 to 130. That’s nothing more than common sense and understanding that a tired pitcher is more likely to make a mistake that hurts him.
I try to factor in stress by using common sense to say that throwing 100 pitches in a game where no runners get on, is much more stressful than 100 pitches where almost all of them take place with runners on. I also maintain that even two pitchers throwing pitches with no runners on can have different stress affecting them. If one pitcher has given up 2 HRs but no other runners and is behind 2-0 in the 8th, he’s under a lot more stress than one who’s given up 2 HRs, but who’s team is ahead 14-2 halfway through the game.
So its not just that 120 is ok and 130 isn’t. In fact there are times when 100 is really bad, but 110 is really good. That happened just the other day in a ML game where one starter was at 100 in the 4th, while the other was at 100 in 8th.
People are trying desperately to come up with the answers, but it’s a very slow process!