Skip to main content

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Same tired discussion, if you are good enough to play they will recruit you, this guy may have one preference...great but you think he is going to ignore a kid because he chose to only play baseball? no isn't gonna happen. If he does...well he is coaching at Duke Football - he certainly hasn't risen to the top of the pile when it comes to recruitment of football players!

His argument that they are mentally better prepared because of playing different spots is somewhere from another universe. if he wants to argue the diversity of sports, range of movement, general athleticism or whatever I guess that can be a debate but mental? just stop, it is silly.

not so fast Old School!  

One baseball HC specifically told my son he liked him specifically for his competitiveness, and referred to his second sport.  This was not the only coach who mentioned his other sport, but this guy made a point of talking about the mental toughness.  It was not about being better prepared, it was about the level of compete my son exhibited which isn't always apparent in baseball.  

My sons high school has low participation in some sports, so they need to pump up the multi sport idea- they even have a "triple threat" award to kids that play all 3 seasons, and tweet all year with various quotes from coaches, etc about how essential it is to play multiple sports. But guess what happens when a kid has a baseball tournament that interferes with football camp? Not to mention what happens when basketball overlaps with baseball. You think they'd be a little accommodating and understanding considering how heavily they promote the multi sport athlete. You'd be wrong.

I know that baseball coaches love multi sport athletes, so why wouldn't football coaches, or basketball coaches, or LX coaches, soccer coaches, etc.  

Yes, they are more mentally prepared, physically prepared, more competitive.  That's a fact, argue all you want.

IMO you keep being involved until you can't anymore because of conflicts. 

Twoboys posted:

not so fast Old School!  

One baseball HC specifically told my son he liked him specifically for his competitiveness, and referred to his second sport.  This was not the only coach who mentioned his other sport, but this guy made a point of talking about the mental toughness.  It was not about being better prepared, it was about the level of compete my son exhibited which isn't always apparent in baseball.  

I don't doubt for a moment that he loves the fact that your son is a 2 sport athlete...no reason he wouldn't like. What I said was if you son is good enough to help him win the fact another kid doesn't play 2 sports won't change anything.

it all depends on level of play, general athletic ability and what the kid can do on baseball field.

so you are telling that an athlete is going to be mentally tougher playing football or basketball for 4 months and baseball 6 months as opposed to playing just baseball for 10 months? Why would that be? Please explain a logical reason why that would assumed much less a fact?

TPM posted:

I know that baseball coaches love multi sport athletes, so why wouldn't football coaches, or basketball coaches, or LX coaches, soccer coaches, etc.  

Yes, they are more mentally prepared, physically prepared, more competitive.  That's a fact, argue all you want.

IMO you keep being involved until you can't anymore because of conflicts. 

How is it more mentally prepared and more competitive?

The physical part you can make an argument for, you may or may not be correct and it would be to some level individual based but I get the discussion.

TPM posted:

 

IMO you keep being involved until you can't anymore because of conflicts. 

 

Depends on where you are located, but it sure seems that for today's high school athlete the conflicts happen in 8th/9th Grade.   Depends on your goals I suppose.   If you aren't playing high level AAU Basketball in the summer you are hopelessly behind.  That obviously conflicts with Baseball.  Football coaches are very demanding of practice time and lifting in the summer, too, and lifting for Baseball is much different than it is for Basketball/Baseball.  Baseball players who can't make all the winter workouts due to Basketball fall behind, too.   Baseball players who only showcase in June/July because of Fall sport conflicts are limiting themselves

I could go on & on.  Times are changing rapidly

I think players should play all the sports they want to play. College coaches love good players. They love tough players. They love competitive players. They love disciplined players. If you have played 3 sports all the way through HS and you are not good enough in their evaluation of you then those extra sports you played won't mean a thing to them. If you have played one sport "the one they coach" and they like what they see they will surely seek you out.

So if a kid is playing a sport because he really wants to play that sport great. If he is playing it to build his resume only forget it. I hear people say "College coaches love two sport athletes!" No they love athletes who can help them win. If the guy happens to have played other sports and that experience helped him be a better baseball player great.

To the player who only wants to play baseball and has no interest in playing other sports. You are not going to miss out on baseball opportunities because you didn't play football or basketball, lacrosse, tennis, sokker, etc. You are going to miss out on baseball opportunities if you simply are not talented enough in their evaluation of you to help them win at the sport they coach.

There is a very short window of opportunity once a player enters HS. Four years. Some kids need all the time they can get to focus on the skills the game requires in order to max out their ability to achieve those goals. They need to hit year round. They need to play a lot. They need to get bigger faster and stronger during that time as well. If these kids are playing HS baseball for 4 months, summer baseball and some fall while working on baseball related skills in order to achieve THEIR goal why should they spend 8 months out of the year playing other sports so they can be a multi sport athlete? Unless they really want to play that sport. This idea that you are hurt by not playing multiple sports in HS is beyond me. You could make the argument that many are hurt by playing multiple sports and not spending the time required to hone the baseball related skills necessary to be recruited.

"I really like #3. He can play." "But you know he's not a multi sport athlete like #7 is." "So even though 3 is better let's recruit 7!" Yeah right.

When coaches see a kid that they like and want to recruit and then find out he is a multi sport athlete they get excited. YES. Why? Imagine the jump he is going to take once we have him focused 100% on just baseball. That is a fact. Now think about that for a moment. Imagine the jump some could have taken in HS if. For the player that needs that extra focus and time while in HS I caution you against playing a sport just to build your resume for some notion that somehow this will be the ticket. And to any player I say this. If you really want to play a sport in HS do it. You never get to go back and try it again.

There is nothing you can do in football that will make you a better baseball player that you can't do on your own. Strength training, agility training, etc. Now some would say it makes you tougher. It makes you more competitive. How? If your a tough cat your a tough cat. If you are competitive your competitive. How does football make you more competitive than baseball? How does it make you tougher? I played college football. Football doesn't make you tough. It's for the tough. If you not tough you were never there to start with. Or you were gone by the end of the first week.

I encouraged all my players and my son's to play every sport they truly had a desire to play. And I also told them if they didn't have a true desire to play it not to play it. And I also would like to add if a baseball program is ran properly there are no tougher harder working athletes around. Many will disagree with me. That's fine. But I can tell you no college coach is going to recruit your son because he played multiple sports. No college coach is going to recruit your son because he only played baseball. But they will recruit your son if they believe he is good enough to help them win regardless of how many sports he played.

Its a personality trait. My player never stopped, when it was baseball off season he played basketball, played golf, street hockey, went surfing, soccer, volleyball whatever he could to win. Coaches loved that fact and I guess by the offers he got and who was offering and their comments that its true. Once it was apparent where he would get a scholarship that all went away. Only a very few get to play both in college two different sports.

FWIW, the OPs son is a 2 sport stand out athlete, ranked top 10  (I believe) by PG in his class. He has several opportunities to committ to baseball, but hasnt.  I know for a fact one coach recruiting him loves that he is a multi sport athlete and coaches with experience pick up on their mentality and competitive nature thru comversation. Coaches want winners on their staff.

Sorry Shu, but some people here just pull stuff out of the air and it gets boring.

Last edited by TPM

A couple of years ago there was a highly talented baseball/football player who had football and baseball offers from some good programs and top high academic schools in country. Chose Duke because that was the program that he could do both sports. I checked rosters and after his first year he became a "football only" guy.

Yes, this topic has been covered extensively here.  I agree that multiple sports athletes benefit both physically and mentally.  I think each sport has a unique slant on the type of competitive mentality required as well as different physical attributes.  I do think, for example, that there is a daily "toughness" mentality that is required with football that a "baseball only" player does not get nearly the same exposure to.  

Also, there are advantages to specializing.  And, there are more and more ways to overcome many of the things you lose out on by not playing multiple sports.   

I do think it is great for younger kids to "play 'em all".  Experience new and different things.  How can you know which you like better if you don't try a variety?  Good balance... etc., etc.  I played multiple sports as did all of our kids.  The school where I coach (and where they attended) is small enough that it is not only feasible, but still recommended and pushed by administration.  Heck, there are only so many good athletes to go around and to be competitive, the "other sports" need those athletes too 

So, yes, I also buy into the "play all of 'em 'til the sport tells you otherwise".  I want to be that guy who champions multi-sports and I do.  But, here's the problem I see first hand as a HS coach...  

Most players are not stud athletes.  Particularly with baseball, playing a lot of games (outside of HS season) is a HUGE separator at the HS age.  In a typical year, I may have one or two guys who will play other sports and still be athletic and talented enough to contribute on the V baseball team.  I will have a few who play other sports but baseball is priority and they work their butts off to arrange to still play baseball and get additional reps/training during the off-season.  The rest tend to be lumped fairly close together and there is no doubt that the ones who play the most baseball away from the HS season get better faster and are more likely to contribute during HS season.

 

When these college coaches who tout this without telling the entire truth start doing the following I will take another look at it.

Fall: Instead of hitting, fielding, bull pens. They start football drills and suit the guys up for some bull in the ring.

Summer: Instead of encouraging guys to play summer ball. They start soccer drills and place them in summer soccer leagues.

Recruiting: Instead of attending WWBA events for weeks at a time. They start attending AAU tournaments to see who can hoop.

Once I see this trend take place I will take another look at it. I don't think I have anything to worry about.

I agree with CM, coaches want winners.  Its my opinion that football separates the men from the boys, most cannot play two sports because it takes a special player to make adjustments.

Most players need tof chose because they more than likely need to, period.  But most 2 sport athletes who really are true 2 sport athletes don't have to. 

The baseball coach will wait quietly on the side until the player chooses his preferred course. Most don't have that option. 

A related challenge from a coach's perspective...

Pitchers and catchers typically require additional side work and coach/instructor time investment (outside of the normal framework of HS practices) to develop.  This usually involves off-season bullpen sessions for P's and after-hours and/or off-season positional development for C's.

Yes, I realize this applies to every position but significantly more so for these two.

So, when we are making decisions on who to focus our extra efforts and additional time commitments toward, one of many things to consider is if they are multi-sport kids.  If they are, they are likely to be less available for off-season work and there is the risk that they may, at some point, decide to focus on one sport and it may be the other sport.  If the latter happens, your extra time investment is wasted and would have been better spent elsewhere.  And team depth in those critical positions is put at risk.  

 

 

Chicken or the egg?   Most of the players on my son's minor league teams were multisport players in HS.  I would assume many of them were multisport because they wanted to play those sports AND the coaches recognized their superior abilities and were willing to accommodate them more so then athletically average wanna be multi-sport athletes. 

My son played football, basketball and baseball all 4 years of HS. 

My daughter's HS basketball coach had a preseason team meeting  and told the players had to do x y and z in order to play.  An hour later after everyone left he told my daughter x, y and z did not apply to her....she could continue to play soccer on her own schedule.

I have not read anything in here where anybody makes any attempt to explain or defend the fact that 2 sports make a kid tougher or competitive...I did read where TPM said so because her kid so it is obviously true but no explanation of any kind from any other. So I assume that those arguments can be put to bed.

One thing I guess that does merit asking is the definition of "playing other sports" is it organized, it is travel level, is it varsity level, if it is varsity level at what size HS? Not all HS varsity level play is even close to the same. At our HS every kid I am aware of plays basketball at least 8 months a year.

I consider my son a one sport athlete because he plays at high level in baseball, he also plays rec league hoops, he plays street hockey, he plays pick hoops in the winter...so maybe I am not considering the terminology properly? The reason he stopped playing soccer was because well it is soccer...he never loved hoops other then something to do in the winter...and he just LOVED COMPETING in baseball in the fall because he wasn't ready for the summer to be over.

I can tell you in his rec league when you go down the lane there are no lay ups...I know and have seen him blow up his best friends because they were going to have to make 2 from the line! I have also seen it done to him for the same reason. I have seem run into trees attempting make a super catch in backyard whiffle ball games, I have seen spend hours alone in the cage in working through some swing adjustments....

Again maybe it is just terminology but I don't see any evidence or argument for the statement "they are tougher or more competitive"

Times are changing very rapidly when it comes to youth sports.  This is one of those topics that some folks whose kids are already college age or older might be out of touch with.   Fewer and fewer parents are OK with their kids playing football, too, due to concussion & other injury concerns.  These changes will likely only increase over the next 5-10 years

3and2Fastball posted:

Coaches of other sports like Baseball players because they are mentally tough.   There is no sport that requires more mental toughness than Baseball, besides maybe Boxing.

I disagree with on this.  My kid is a Catcher, Pitcher, and QB.  I have yet to see any position in sports as difficult both physically and mentally as playing QB.  Baseball is a walk in the park compared to football.  Baseball is a game of failure, but you get A LOT of opportunities to fail.  In football, it can be one bad play and your season is over.  

Last edited by d-mac
3and2Fastball posted:

Times are changing very rapidly when it comes to youth sports.  This is one of those topics that some folks whose kids are already college age or older might be out of touch with.   Fewer and fewer parents are OK with their kids playing football, too, due to concussion & other injury concerns.  These changes will likely only increase over the next 5-10 years

My guess is that youth tackle football does not exist in 10 years.

d-mac posted:
3and2Fastball posted:

Times are changing very rapidly when it comes to youth sports.  This is one of those topics that some folks whose kids are already college age or older might be out of touch with.   Fewer and fewer parents are OK with their kids playing football, too, due to concussion & other injury concerns.  These changes will likely only increase over the next 5-10 years

My guess is that youth tackle football does not exist in 10 years.

Tiki Barber was on the radio yesterday predicting that in 15 years only the Power 5 conferences will have Football teams

It's entertaining to see these debate argued based on what each person experienced. I don't believe there's a definitive answer while going through the process. At the next level (college) any coach is going to take the recruit who gives him the best chance to win regardless of prior history.

My daughter played four sports before high school and three in high school. Softball did become a year round effort in high school despite the other sports.

My son played four sports before high school. He played three freshman year. Soph year he was cut from the basketball program (despite being the freshman point guard) for missing all the optional basketball events and not playing in a summer league. Like his sister with softball, baseball became a year round effort in high school despite playing soccer in the fall and attending soccer day camp in the summer. His first winter without basketball there was a large incremental jump in his baseball. He gained weight and bulk lifting instead of running it off playing basketball (other than rec league).

Baseball was not his best sport nor his favorite. Soccer was his best sport. Basketball was a small notch above baseball in favoritism. 

Each kid has to choose their own direction. There isn't a correct answer in this debate. However, if a kid chooses to play multiple sports he still better get the work in for baseball (or other favored sport).

Last edited by RJM
d-mac posted:
3and2Fastball posted:

Times are changing very rapidly when it comes to youth sports.  This is one of those topics that some folks whose kids are already college age or older might be out of touch with.   Fewer and fewer parents are OK with their kids playing football, too, due to concussion & other injury concerns.  These changes will likely only increase over the next 5-10 years

My guess is that youth tackle football does not exist in 10 years.

Our local paper analyzed football playing numbers at schools in the two largest classifications in our state from 2013-2016. Our high school led all schools with a 30% decrease in participation over that time period. The vast majority of schools saw significant drops. The same is happening at the youth level. Outside of the major football hotbeds (Texas, I'm looking at you), I think the days of football as a big high school sport are numbered. When that happens, the argument over sports specialization or multi-sport participation will be moot for many kids. 

3and2Fastball posted:
d-mac posted:
3and2Fastball posted:

Times are changing very rapidly when it comes to youth sports.  This is one of those topics that some folks whose kids are already college age or older might be out of touch with.   Fewer and fewer parents are OK with their kids playing football, too, due to concussion & other injury concerns.  These changes will likely only increase over the next 5-10 years

My guess is that youth tackle football does not exist in 10 years.

Tiki Barber was on the radio yesterday predicting that in 15 years only the Power 5 conferences will have Football teams

Isn't that the case now? ;-)

I'm not sure one sport over another makes a kid mentally tough. A kid either has it/develops it or he doesn't. I have a friend who was a high school QB and pitcher. He pitched in college until he was cut. He had the physical skills. He wasn't mentally tough enough. He could have been more successful in high school and college if he was mentally tougher. To this day he's a glass half empty guy. 

3and2Fastball posted:
d-mac posted:
3and2Fastball posted:

Times are changing very rapidly when it comes to youth sports.  This is one of those topics that some folks whose kids are already college age or older might be out of touch with.   Fewer and fewer parents are OK with their kids playing football, too, due to concussion & other injury concerns.  These changes will likely only increase over the next 5-10 years

My guess is that youth tackle football does not exist in 10 years.

Tiki Barber was on the radio yesterday predicting that in 15 years only the Power 5 conferences will have Football teams

I predict high school age football will become a club sport as the liability insurance for school districts rises. 

old_school posted:

I have not read anything in here where anybody makes any attempt to explain or defend the fact that 2 sports make a kid tougher or competitive...I did read where TPM said so because her kid so it is obviously true but no explanation of any kind from any other. So I assume that those arguments can be put to bed.

One thing I guess that does merit asking is the definition of "playing other sports" is it organized, it is travel level, is it varsity level, if it is varsity level at what size HS? Not all HS varsity level play is even close to the same. At our HS every kid I am aware of plays basketball at least 8 months a year.

I consider my son a one sport athlete because he plays at high level in baseball, he also plays rec league hoops, he plays street hockey, he plays pick hoops in the winter...so maybe I am not considering the terminology properly? The reason he stopped playing soccer was because well it is soccer...he never loved hoops other then something to do in the winter...and he just LOVED COMPETING in baseball in the fall because he wasn't ready for the summer to be over.

I can tell you in his rec league when you go down the lane there are no lay ups...I know and have seen him blow up his best friends because they were going to have to make 2 from the line! I have also seen it done to him for the same reason. I have seem run into trees attempting make a super catch in backyard whiffle ball games, I have seen spend hours alone in the cage in working through some swing adjustments....

Again maybe it is just terminology but I don't see any evidence or argument for the statement "they are tougher or more competitive"

I think, regarding terminology, the general assumption is that the athlete is playing multiple HS sports.  I will expand a bit on my earlier thoughts...

"I think each sport has a unique slant on the type of competitive mentality required as well as different physical attributes.  I do think, for example, that there is a daily "toughness" mentality that is required with football that a "baseball only" player does not get nearly the same exposure to.

With football, for example, there is direct physical contact, often with significant force and often in a physically combative element.  This happens pretty much daily at practices and intensifies during games.  Basketball has continuous individual matchups, rubbing screens, requires high performance with grace and touch while at the same time, being physically gassed.  Singles tennis demands excellent physical condition while still requiring striking the ball very accurately while in motion, often hundreds of times during a match, all while doing quite a bit of aggressive moving in all directions.  It is also pure one against one... no where to hide, no teammates to shoulder some of the load.  It's all you.  These all bring about different types of "toughness", physical condition and mental approach in order to succeed.  And, I think, many of these different elements can help to varying degrees with success in other sports.  Many can be emulated or otherwise made up for.  Many cannot.  

My basketball players never get tired and tend to have great athletic, fluid body movement.  My football players will run the bases fearlessly and take more territorial ownership of bases and ball in both offensive and defensive situations.  They also tend to be more inclined toward comradery.  Just a few examples.  I almost always get a good slice of football mentality with my football playing baseball guys, which is, in most instances, a good thing.  So, if I'm a college recruiter, I don't pick him because he played FB but I kinda like that he did.  And, then there is also the argument that he has more potential to improve more because he has played less baseball.  So, if there are two very similarly talented players, I guess it could be a difference maker.

I certainly agree with Coach May and others that there is give and take.  I would never tell a player to go play sport x because it will help their baseball.  But I have certainly had players who decide they want to play football (because they want to) and I would definitely endorse that they would benefit from doing so.  Then, others would be better off putting more effort into focusing on their baseball skills.  

I also see a lot of what D-Mac describes.  If a player is a QB, you can almost bet the farm he will be a P, C or SS in baseball...  a leader type that likes to take charge.  (Of course, arm strength is also a bit of a factor)

Last edited by cabbagedad
old_school posted:

I have not read anything in here where anybody makes any attempt to explain or defend the fact that 2 sports make a kid tougher or competitive...I did read where TPM said so because her kid so it is obviously true but no explanation of any kind from any other. So I assume that those arguments can be put to bed.

One thing I guess that does merit asking is the definition of "playing other sports" is it organized, it is travel level, is it varsity level, if it is varsity level at what size HS? Not all HS varsity level play is even close to the same. At our HS every kid I am aware of plays basketball at least 8 months a year.

I consider my son a one sport athlete because he plays at high level in baseball, he also plays rec league hoops, he plays street hockey, he plays pick hoops in the winter...so maybe I am not considering the terminology properly? The reason he stopped playing soccer was because well it is soccer...he never loved hoops other then something to do in the winter...and he just LOVED COMPETING in baseball in the fall because he wasn't ready for the summer to be over.

I can tell you in his rec league when you go down the lane there are no lay ups...I know and have seen him blow up his best friends because they were going to have to make 2 from the line! I have also seen it done to him for the same reason. I have seem run into trees attempting make a super catch in backyard whiffle ball games, I have seen spend hours alone in the cage in working through some swing adjustments....

Again maybe it is just terminology but I don't see any evidence or argument for the statement "they are tougher or more competitive"

My post was making a point that although son only played baseball in HS, he never played one sport until he had no choice. And personally, not sure he could have done it anyway. The fact that your son plays multiple sports only goes to show that these experiences CAN determine how a coach does like your abilities later on. IMO coaches like athletes. 

Also you made a negative comment about the Duke FB program. Do you realize how hard it is to pass Duke admissions and who you have to play against in the ACC?

JMO

 

kandkfunk posted:
d-mac posted:
3and2Fastball posted:

Times are changing very rapidly when it comes to youth sports.  This is one of those topics that some folks whose kids are already college age or older might be out of touch with.   Fewer and fewer parents are OK with their kids playing football, too, due to concussion & other injury concerns.  These changes will likely only increase over the next 5-10 years

My guess is that youth tackle football does not exist in 10 years.

Our local paper analyzed football playing numbers at schools in the two largest classifications in our state from 2013-2016. Our high school led all schools with a 30% decrease in participation over that time period. The vast majority of schools saw significant drops. The same is happening at the youth level. Outside of the major football hotbeds (Texas, I'm looking at you), I think the days of football as a big high school sport are numbered. When that happens, the argument over sports specialization or multi-sport participation will be moot for many kids. 

KanK, curious what you mean by your last sentence...  are you implying that there won't be other options or that there will be an easier path to other options?  Or?

I thought Jordan Spieth was very mentally tough on Sunday, right around the 14th hole.

The whole multisport athlete in HS thing is meaningless without knowing the HS in question and how competitive its sports are. Shu's kid is at a HS in the largest classification in Georgia -- that means something. Playing 3 sports in a HS with 50 boys per grade, for example, tells very little about the kid's athleticism.

We see a ton of outstanding baseball players every year.  We get information from them.  One of the questions is do you play other sports.  To me, there is no correlation between one sport and multisport players as to who the best prospects are.

Even if someone believed there was an advantage, which there might very well be, I would venture a guess that at least half of all the players in the Big leagues played baseball only in HS.  If I am correct, that means the other half were multisport athletes in HS.

I am talking about organized actual HS sports.  Almost every kid will get involved in other sports and activities at times, without actually participating on a HS team.

I know this has been a topic lately, but when we are at some of these big events we see College Recruiters salivating over player they see.  Believe me, they could care less how many sports that kid plays... they desperately want him!

I mean who do you want playing shortstop, Francisco Lindor or some multisport athlete?  You want Yadi catching or some tougher multisport athlete?  It goes both ways... You want Mike Trout in the outfield or someone that only played baseball? I wonder if Mike Trout would be any good had he not played football?

So to me this whole topic about multisport athletes vs those that play just one sport is rediculous.  It has been proven, over and over, that the best players have done it either way.  Unless you are talking about the NBA.  That is where you probably will find the most single sport athletes.

Truth is even if somehow we could prove there was a big benefit to playing multiple sports, it will never trump talent in any single sport.  Some are among the most talented at more than one sport, are we to believe they wouldn't be that talented if they only played one of those sports?

That said, I do like multisport athletes and I do believe each sport can teach different things.  If kids want to play other sports they should.  I have gone to football games and basketball games to watch a baseball prospect play.  It can be helpful at times to see how they compete and how they act and how athletic they are.  So I get why scouts and coaches might say what they say.  But in the end, what they say isn't what they do.  They always take the best player they can get, with no regard for how many sports they participate in. After all, they are recruiting or drafting baseball players.

Lastly, I do think younger kids should play just about everything they enjoy.  I wish they all played baseball, too.  But this fallacy that someone is a better baseball player because he played three sports doesn't pass the test.  So if you are a great athlete and enjoy other sports, that's great.  If you just play one sport and you become one of the best at it, that's great too.  Only thing I will say is there definitely is an advantage in being a great athlete and that is true in every sport.

 

Add Reply

Post
.
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×