Two-Way Player... becoming more common? Should it? Thoughts

If a player is needed both ways for a HS coach to potentially  win all the games on their schedule he/she will be "allowed" to do both.  Some travel teams may believe that a players future is one way or the other and only plan to use them as such.  If a travel team recommends that and you don't agree - find another travel team.  Coaches do what they think is in their teams / programs best interest.  While they are not always right...they will always do what they think is right...

Most HS programs will allow an exceptional player to do both.  It can be very challenging for a HS coach because the typical players with the stronger arms are both the better pitchers and the better options to play positions like SS and C.  That combination is dangerous when trying to keep a young arm healthy.  So, this is often the reason why a HS coach will try to keep a player limited to all or mostly one or the other.  A bigger school or one that has depth can better afford to keep more PO's and not suffer competitively.  Smaller schools (or schools with a smaller pool of talent) take a bigger hit when they eliminate one of their better players from either pitching or playing a position.

For kids who aren't a clear cut above others on the team, having them specialize can make it easier for a coach to provide PT to other players.  It can also be an opportunity to have that player work and focus more on his P skills and thus become more productive for his team.  Some of many other reasons involve game strategy.  It is of value to have a few competent P's ready to warm up at any time off the bench instead of trying to figure out how to get a position player proper warm-up time for scenarios that can't always be anticipated.

College is a whole different story.  The practice and workout workloads are both heavy and separate for P's and position players.  It is a much more difficult thing to try to do both at most colleges, particularly the bigger schools that put more hours into their routines and have depth on both sides.

Two way players in college are not the norm.  In HS, I see a bit of both.  Starting pitchers are more likely to be POs in HS than relievers, but it depends on the HS talent pool as well.  We knew my son would be PO in college and although he liked playing a position, it is easier for him to train as a PO.  We started doing PO for showcases sophomore year.  He did fine as a position player and even posted top IF velos and exit velos at earlier showcases, but his future was pitching.  His high school coach has let him DH a bit, but he has been mainly PO since sophomore year and is a senior currently.  If he had pushed being a two way, he would not have had the school options he had by focusing on what he was really good at.

When my kids first started playing HS baseball in Texas I expected a very competitive environment. I thought playing time at each position would be earned by the best player in fair & non-biased evaluations of practice reps and game play. I thought the best players would be on the field at all times with the primary goal being to develop a winning program....... Boy, was I wrong! Very, very few HS programs (especially public HS) are run that way. Many programs don’t cut players that can’t play. Those kids stick around and when they are seniors they think they deserve to play. So do their parents who believe their kids are entitled to be on any public HS team they desire to play for (since it’s a public school and they pay taxes & work the snack bar). More HS players & parents view HS baseball as an activity more than a competitive event. Winning isn’t important to these people. Participation is what matters to them. They don’t care if they lose every game as long as their kid is in uniform and on the field. Personally I can’t stand it. It was a hard day when I realized that more people in today’s world think like that than don’t.  This “participation trophy & juice box mentality “ creates all kinds of problems for coaches - especially coaches that want to win. It also prevents players from learning many of the life lessons that can be taught thru proper operation of team sports. But, I digress. In order to keep the booster club, the school administration, and influential parents happy coaches need to find a way to get these peoples kids on the field - or they won’t be coaches at that school for very long. One way to do that is to promote specialization. Another way is to platoon players at some positions. HS baseball today is so much about politics and social climate. Take that into consideration when you see things going on that don’t make any sense to you. Also take into account that your HS baseball coach may have other coaching responsibilities at his school. Baseball might not even be his top priority. These are many of the reasons that emphasis has shifted from HS ball to travel ball over the past decade (or more).  Trust me, if you get to the college level it all sorts itself out. In the meantime learn to observe w/o making a spectacle of yourself and always know the location of the nearest bar. 

cabbagedad posted:

Most HS programs will allow an exceptional player to do both.  It can be very challenging for a HS coach because the typical players with the stronger arms are both the better pitchers and the better options to play positions like SS and C.  That combination is dangerous when trying to keep a young arm healthy.  So, this is often the reason why a HS coach will try to keep a player limited to all or mostly one or the other.  A bigger school or one that has depth can better afford to keep more PO's and not suffer competitively.  Smaller schools (or schools with a smaller pool of talent) take a bigger hit when they eliminate one of their better players from either pitching or playing a position.

For kids who aren't a clear cut above others on the team, having them specialize can make it easier for a coach to provide PT to other players.  It can also be an opportunity to have that player work and focus more on his P skills and thus become more productive for his team.  Some of many other reasons involve game strategy.  It is of value to have a few competent P's ready to warm up at any time off the bench instead of trying to figure out how to get a position player proper warm-up time for scenarios that can't always be anticipated.

College is a whole different story.  The practice and workout workloads are both heavy and separate for P's and position players.  It is a much more difficult thing to try to do both at most colleges, particularly the bigger schools that put more hours into their routines and have depth on both sides.

That makes a lot of sense! Thanks for the insight.   

2 way guys begin to phase out the higher the level of competition, and to me it seems to be linked to the skill of hitting. Lets face it, just about everyone and his brother can smash 80's pitching: 85 not so much: and 90+ good luck. That's when people will start to tell you they heard the pitch but didn't see it. Imagine trying to make a living hitting while spending a vast majority of your time refining your pitching mechanics. Like I said works in lower levels, not so much in higher ones.    

Re Adbono’s post ... How sports is handled is a situational issue. Our high school was as you describe before my kids hit high school. Seniority mattered and politics mattered. The high school was a laughingstock doormat in most sports. As a high school recruiting off the mean streets of three country clubs the high school excelled in golf, water polo and swimming. 

As my daughter (the oldest of two) entered high school a new AD was hired. He had been the assistant AD at a nearby powerhouse. Over time he wiped out all the losing coaches and hired up and coming assistants away from other high schools as head coaches. My kids played on twelve conference championship teams in four of their five (daughter played three) sports. The high school started placing so many kids in college sports they had to hire a guidance counselor who understood student-athlete college recruiting. 

Regarding two way players ... My son was a position player and a closer. Depending on the year he came from short or center. He always warmed up between the sixth and seventh inning if there was a chance he could come in.

One time a game flipped upside down. He was asked to come in with no warmup on a 40 degree day. It pissed off the coach, but he refused. He told the  coach to pull him from the game, let him warm up and sub him back in. 

He started a handful of non conference games. He gave them one hundred pitches and came out of the game. Had they been conference games I’m guessing he would have been removed from the mound, sent to left field and told not to cut it loose. 

On his 17u team he offered his services as an innings eater mostly in the midweek scout league games.  He wanted to be a position player in college. He drew some attention throwing five innings of two hit ball, throwing 87-90 against the top travel team in our area. The irony was he was baffling them with his stuff.

I agreed w/ RJM that what I described is situational and doesn’t apply universally. However, it’s a situation that I see WAY too much of. 

At my son's high school, I cannot remember a starting pitcher who was not also one of the team's top-9 hitters and/or fielders.  Yes, they played all the time, at all positions, even shortstop, and once, catcher.  There were a few relievers who weren't not among the best fielders or hitters, and they only came in some of the time.  Based on the hs experience, I didn't even know that it was considered a bad idea for a pitcher to play ss until I read it on here (many kids did that in travel, too).  This was not a powerhouse school, and not in a hotbed state, but a large public school with a 20-person varsity team, so not everyone played.  I didn't notice much politics or social climate influencing who played, either. 

My 2020 was never a very good hitter. Tried to play both until summer after freshman year. Then decided he just wanted to PO. It worked well, was able to dedicate all training cycles to getting stronger, and better.

My 2022 still plays as a 2way. He pitches on varsity and when not pitching plays 3B or 2B or DHs (when brother is on the mound). If he plays baseball in college it will be as a pitcher, he doesn't put the work into hitting and wouldn't be able to handle the workload of a 2 way in college.

My kid was a two-way in HS and a pretty darn good one. His senior year his ERA was 1.4 with 70something k's in 30something innings. In a down year for him batted .335 with 6-8 HR's, I think. In right field finished HS with a .948 fielding percentage. There were a few kids who were two-way on that team. It had a reputation for winning so for the most part the best players played.

The biggest baseball mistake we may have ever made was going to college as a two-way. The kid made it very clear hitting/PP first PO second. I'm sure now the coach where he ended up took him as a PO with the thinking once here what's he going to do. If the guy would have been upfront we could have saved everyone a headache. Can't argue with those here that will tell you they are no better than used car salesmen.

A player recruited as a two way should expect the odds are he ends up a pitcher only. Almost every position player can be moved to another position. Not everyone can be moved to pitcher. Not every pitcher can throw strikes. 

Back when dinosaurs ruled the earth (70’s) I was recruited as an outfielder. But the coaching staff knew I was a dominant, left handed high school pitcher. By the end of first week of freshman fall ball I was also working with the pitchers. I pitched more than hit for a season and a half until I was replaceable on the mound. It was a lot of effort to get in the work for both. 

imagine taking the mound wanting to be successful for your team fearing too much success might get you stuck as a pitcher only.

As a high school and Legion player the thing I didn’t like about pitching was coming to the plate and being on base with less than 100% energy due to fatigue from pitching. 

SomeBaseballDad posted:

My kid was a two-way in HS and a pretty darn good one. His senior year his ERA was 1.4 with 70something k's in 30something innings. In a down year for him batted .335 with 6-8 HR's, I think. In right field finished HS with a .948 fielding percentage. There were a few kids who were two-way on that team. It had a reputation for winning so for the most part the best players played.

The biggest baseball mistake we may have ever made was going to college as a two-way. The kid made it very clear hitting/PP first PO second. I'm sure now the coach where he ended up took him as a PO with the thinking once here what's he going to do. If the guy would have been upfront we could have saved everyone a headache. Can't argue with those here that will tell you they are no better than used car salesmen.

No argument with any of that. However I will say this, being a good (productive) hitter in HS doesn’t always project to being one in college. The range of quality in HS pitching is huge. Position players that play in big classifications vs top flight pitching are infinitely better prepared for college. Players in the best 6A HS  in Texas face a college bound pitcher in every Tuesday & Friday night district game. A player can hit .300 in a district like that and be a college prospect. Meanwhile some kid that hits .500 in 4A Farmersville may have  no chance to play beyond HS. Try explaining that to Farmersville Dad. 

In HS two way works, sometimes even in college but in mlb it doesn't work great because of the schedule. First few guys have the skill because both hitting and pitching in mlb are tough to do and require a lot of practice and even when it works it can be a PITA to work it out. 

Just look at ohtani who required a 6 man rotation and 2-3 off days from hitting per week to get enough preparation. To put up with this teams need to see tremendous talent on both ends.

The thing i could see is teams having two way players as mob up guys. Use a bench hitter with a good arm, teach him a second pitch so he can be a 6-7 era guy and innings don't take to long and bring him in when you are down 5 in the 7th to save the actual relievers.

Son's travel coach had a heart to heart with him at 14 years old and told him his future talents could be on the pitching mound at the college level if he continued to develop every year.   Best advice my son ever received.   He was 100% correct, and we trusted his evaluation at the time.   I could see it and my wife could see...we knew if he was going to play college baseball it was because of pitching.   No question about it.   Everyone on son's travel team would go on to play D1 college baseball.   There was very little room on his national travel team for my son's bat despite being an all-district DH in high school.   Specialization gave my son the focus he needed to work in his pitching skills.

To sum it up, successful two-way players in high school are common.   Successful two-way players in college are few, and even fewer at the D1 Power 5 level.

Dominik85 posted:

In HS two way works, sometimes even in college but in mlb it doesn't work great because of the schedule. First few guys have the skill because both hitting and pitching in mlb are tough to do and require a lot of practice and even when it works it can be a PITA to work it out. 

Just look at ohtani who required a 6 man rotation and 2-3 off days from hitting per week to get enough preparation. To put up with this teams need to see tremendous talent on both ends.

The thing i could see is teams having two way players as mob up guys. Use a bench hitter with a good arm, teach him a second pitch so he can be a 6-7 era guy and innings don't take to long and bring him in when you are down 5 in the 7th to save the actual relievers.

One of my son's HS teammates is a 2-way in the Brewers system. He's a LHP and a very good, fast CF who can hit.  Hard to say that he'll ever get to the show, but if he does, I can see him coming in to face a LH batter, going to the OF when a RH batter comes up, then going back to the hill for a second LH batter.  

(I have no idea if that is legal now)

adbono posted:

Meanwhile some kid that hits .500 in 4A Farmersville may have  no chance to play beyond HS. Try explaining that to Farmersville Dad. 

Sure, but if Farmersville wins the state 4A championship, doesn't that still matter?  It's not all about the next level. 

It seems Adbono's point is that hs coaches are trying to play as many kids as possible, instead of trying to win, so that is a reason for having POs in high school?  Our coaches did not do that - they played players that they thought would produce, wherever that was.  There was usually a DH, but it was usually NOT for the pitcher (since he was a good hitter), but for whichever position player was hitting the worst.

A player recruited as a two way should expect the odds are he ends up a pitcher only. Almost every position player can be moved to another position. Not everyone can be moved to pitcher. Not every pitcher can throw strikes. 

That's the thing about the kid. He can throw all the offspeed pitches for strikes, and do it with the same motion/delivery (no tipping) as his FB. Coach told him at one point I recruited you because you have a dam near MLB level CB. The problem is he can't spot it (FB). Close, he can almost always get it across the plate, but low and away might be up and in, or right down the middle, all for K's, but... We knew that and we knew that would hurt him at the college level, but they seemed to have the whole "I'm a college PC and I'll fix that" mindset. Thing is a few coaches before them thought the same thing. The more people tried to make him throw it to a spot the worse it went. He got to the point his senior year he didn't really work on pitching, but come Friday night he'd embarrass kids headed to DI. We saw him as a kid who could eat up innings mid-week, never thought anyone would take him as a weekend starter. All that said, in the whole "close only counts in" mindset, if he could locate the FB just that last little bit and had about 5-6 mph on his FB he'd be a top 5 round pick no doubt.

No argument with any of that. However I will say this, being a good (productive) hitter in HS doesn’t always project to being one in college. The range of quality in HS pitching is huge. Position players that play in big classifications vs top flight pitching are infinitely better prepared for college. Players in the best 6A HS  in Texas face a college bound pitcher in every Tuesday & Friday night district game. A player can hit .300 in a district like that and be a college prospect. Meanwhile some kid that hits .500 in 4A Farmersville may have  no chance to play beyond HS. Try explaining that to Farmersville Dad. 

Right now the problem is, and I understand it's stopped a lot of players from advancing, the offspeed stuff. You throw him a FB at your own risk. He is having trouble seeing the spin and adjusting to offspeed. In his defense, he hasn't had much opportunity to figure it out at this level because of the PO thing. He has a year off to figure it out so we'll see. We've taken note that no small amount of MLB players with what would normally be considered acceptable vision wear contacts.

But to the FB.

https://www.facebook.com/klknt...eos/980645728934346/

What's the saying, jack of all trades master of none.

You will find that in D2, mid to lower D1 (not sure about D3) there are quite a few 2 way players, not necessarily recruited for that, but because the top arms in the country  play for the top programs in the country, and good arms are always needed.

You will find a few in D1. Many are top prospects and are true two way players not occasional two way players.  The guy son faced in college was Sean Doolittle, who played first while not pitching because his bat was THAT good. 

Either way, it takes a VERY SPECIAL player to be able to do both.

anotherparent posted:

adbono posted:

Meanwhile some kid that hits .500 in 4A Farmersville may have  no chance to play beyond HS. Try explaining that to Farmersville Dad. 

Sure, but if Farmersville wins the state 4A championship, doesn't that still matter?  It's not all about the next level. 

It seems Adbono's point is that hs coaches are trying to play as many kids as possible, instead of trying to win, so that is a reason for having POs in high school?  Our coaches did not do that - they played players that they thought would produce, wherever that was.  There was usually a DH, but it was usually NOT for the pitcher (since he was a good hitter), but for whichever position player was hitting the worst.

That's pretty much how it was my son's senior year of HS.   Basically had three pitchers of which one was a PO.   The PO didn't have a blinding FB (low 80's), but he did have a wicked curve and change up.   When he was the starter, the DH batted in his place.    The other two pitchers would definitely bat and the DH was used for the weakest hitter in the lineup.  Our ace was a 5 tool player (95+ FB) that could also hit very well (7-8 HR's his senior year) and who eventually signed with the Ray's out of HS (6th round pick).   The varsity did have a few additional position players that could pitch in an emergency, but it was very rare to see them on the mound.

For the most part I think you'll find more two way players at the HS level.   It's not common to see two way players at the college level.   As mentioned by Cabbage it would be hard to be a two way player at the college level as the pitcher's practice separately from the position players.   I didn't see any two way players at the JuCo my son played for and only one at the D2 he played for - and he was used sparingly.

TPM posted:

Either way, it takes a VERY SPECIAL player to be able to do both.

 

 

 

 

Jake Meyers from Nebraska. Not sure I'd call him special.

This makes me sad! I have a hs freshman 2way and can’t imagine any other way. Starting MIF, switch hitter 3rd or 4th with power. Pitches best if he’s also batting. Not ready to have to get serious!!

SomeBaseballDad posted:

TPM posted:

Either way, it takes a VERY SPECIAL player to be able to do both.

 

 

 

 

Jake Meyers from Nebraska. Not sure I'd call him special.

Very special IMO is getting hitters out as well as hitting homeruns as well as excelling in the classroom.

anotherparent posted:

adbono posted:

Meanwhile some kid that hits .500 in 4A Farmersville may have  no chance to play beyond HS. Try explaining that to Farmersville Dad. 

Sure, but if Farmersville wins the state 4A championship, doesn't that still matter?  It's not all about the next level. 

It seems Adbono's point is that hs coaches are trying to play as many kids as possible, instead of trying to win, so that is a reason for having POs in high school?  Our coaches did not do that - they played players that they thought would produce, wherever that was.  There was usually a DH, but it was usually NOT for the pitcher (since he was a good hitter), but for whichever position player was hitting the worst.

I think playing more different players is a legit argument against 2 way, however only if the skill gap is close.

HS is not about participating but still keeping the roster happy is part of a coach's job even at the pro level.

Of course it can't come at the expense of winning but if you can find a way to play more players without affecting w l record you should do it.

So it really comes down to the hitting skill. If pitcher hits only marginally better than hitter number 9 play the hitter. But on the other hand if pitcher rakes and number 9 is bad play the pitcher.

Every supposed "2 way player" I've known has been a big fish in a small pond. Sorry if that was blunt, just personal experience. Who ever mentioned farmersville kid hit the nail on the head. Like I said before, the higher the level the less likely one can succeed without dedication to a particular craft. 

Alec Burleson from ECU is someone who comes to mind regarding this topic.   Graduated from our High School and was a very good two way player and has been incredible with ECU.  It's not common but if your player can pitch and hit let them do both and then let the schools decide what they want to do with him.   Burleson was already good but when he got to college and was with college coaching he became even better so you never know.   

anotherparent posted:

adbono posted:

Meanwhile some kid that hits .500 in 4A Farmersville may have  no chance to play beyond HS. Try explaining that to Farmersville Dad. 

Sure, but if Farmersville wins the state 4A championship, doesn't that still matter?  It's not all about the next level. 

It seems Adbono's point is that hs coaches are trying to play as many kids as possible, instead of trying to win, so that is a reason for having POs in high school?  Our coaches did not do that - they played players that they thought would produce, wherever that was.  There was usually a DH, but it was usually NOT for the pitcher (since he was a good hitter), but for whichever position player was hitting the worst.

Sure it matters if Farmersville wins the 4A state Championship - but that isn’t the point being made.  It’s back to the big fish in a small pond concept as mentioned by ReluctantO’sFan. Most good athletes at a smaller HS are 2 way players in baseball. But being a good hitter against suspect HS pitching doesn’t prepare a player to be a successful hitter against college pitchers at any level. And it’s an unrealistic expectation to think otherwise. That’s the point I’m making. Two way players in college are rare. At the D1 level especially. As TPM mentioned, it takes a special kid. 

Relevant to this discussion, I believe. 

https://theathletic.com/163031...ource=shared-article

4arms posted:

Alec Burleson from ECU is someone who comes to mind regarding this topic.   Graduated from our High School and was a very good two way player and has been incredible with ECU.  It's not common but if your player can pitch and hit let them do both and then let the schools decide what they want to do with him.   Burleson was already good but when he got to college and was with college coaching he became even better so you never know.   

Davis Sharpe from Clemson.

4arms posted:

Alec Burleson from ECU is someone who comes to mind    

I've always been a fan of the underdog, so maybe he is the next Ohtani. However he has started down a path that usually ends with being the jack of all trades, but the master of none.

adbono posted:

Sure it matters if Farmersville wins the 4A state Championship - but that isn’t the point being made.  It’s back to the big fish in a small pond concept as mentioned by ReluctantO’sFan. Most good athletes at a smaller HS are 2 way players in baseball. But being a good hitter against suspect HS pitching doesn’t prepare a player to be a successful hitter against college pitchers at any level. And it’s an unrealistic expectation to think otherwise. That’s the point I’m making. Two way players in college are rare. At the D1 level especially. As TPM mentioned, it takes a special kid. 

Oh, sure, I entirely get the point about college and focus and training.  But the OP was about high-school (without reference to college - we do get such posts sometimes ) and players quitting baseball because they didn't want to be POs in high school.  Some of the comments were about how high-school coaches play players, which seemed to be the original point of this thread.  High school is often the last time that future POs get to hit and field; it should be fun and about winning. 

Having said that, it's important for freshmen parents to recognize that not getting to do what you want to do (even when you think you are better than the other guy) is a very useful lesson to learn, and you can either sulk and go home, or make the best of it and keep working with an eye to the next 3 years (never mind after that).

anotherparent posted:

adbono posted:

Sure it matters if Farmersville wins the 4A state Championship - but that isn’t the point being made.  It’s back to the big fish in a small pond concept as mentioned by ReluctantO’sFan. Most good athletes at a smaller HS are 2 way players in baseball. But being a good hitter against suspect HS pitching doesn’t prepare a player to be a successful hitter against college pitchers at any level. And it’s an unrealistic expectation to think otherwise. That’s the point I’m making. Two way players in college are rare. At the D1 level especially. As TPM mentioned, it takes a special kid. 

Oh, sure, I entirely get the point about college and focus and training.  But the OP was about high-school (without reference to college - we do get such posts sometimes ) and players quitting baseball because they didn't want to be POs in high school.  Some of the comments were about how high-school coaches play players, which seemed to be the original point of this thread.  High school is often the last time that future POs get to hit and field; it should be fun and about winning. 

Having said that, it's important for freshmen parents to recognize that not getting to do what you want to do (even when you think you are better than the other guy) is a very useful lesson to learn, and you can either sulk and go home, or make the best of it and keep working with an eye to the next 3 years (never mind after that).

Spot on!! Sports is such a different world from when I played in HS and then in college.   In my day, most athletes played multiple sports in HS and had fun and if you were good enough at one, you might play in college.  There was AAU basketball,Junior Olympic Volleyball and State Select Soccer for the elite athletes to compete in to use as a springboard towards college.  That is where higher development occurred. But now days...it is so different for HS athletes, at least in our area.  HS sports have evolved to so much more it seems. Hence the original comment. 

I see what others say about "Jack of All Trades and Master of None" and all of that, but at the same time, you hope that HS sports can still be a little mixture of fun, development, winning/losing, learning valuable life lessons and creating lifetime memories.  The specialization (POs only) can be left to travel/showcase teams! That's my thoughts anyway. 

To answer the OP. Why don't coaches let more "great" players two way? 

Because the definition of great is subjective. Your definition of great is going to be different from a high school coach's definition of great, which is going to be different from a travel coach's definition of great, which is going to be different from a college coach's definition of great. The point being that if they were truly great they'd be doing both. Now I don't know how many kids are POs on a freshmen team, even JV. But when you get to varsity there are four years worth of talent on the team, the odds that you will be able to be better than the rest at both pitching and defense/hitting get slimmer the more you progress up the baseball ranks. 

2019 played SS and was the #1 on his HS team. On his travel team he batted third and split time at short. Then he played big boy travel ball and didn't hit too much despite being recruited as a two way. When he got to college he picked up a bat and every pitcher on the roster is 90+ or a lefty with nothing but junk from wacky arm slots. The two way plan isn't dead, but it is for this season. 

The point being that what is great for your 2024 son and his buddies in HS is that at some point you aren't good enough. Maybe politics get involved, maybe they don't but if a player is great at both he'll do both. If he's great at one maybe he's not a great hitter for the next level. Remember - great is a lot different from pretty good. And being capable of putting a few hits together and being able to play multiple positions does not make you great, it just makes you more useful than someone who can't. 

PABASEBALL makes an excellent point about good vs great. There really aren’t that many players at any level that are great. There are a lot that are good. The perspective of many parents is off base on the good vs great IMO. When a person has played and/or coached baseball (or any sport) at the college or pro level they tend to have a better understanding of good vs great. Being great involves things like instincts, uncanny timing, coming thru in the clutch, lots of spectacular moments, leadership skills, fearlessness and a host of other things that can’t be recorded at a PG Showcase. 

In my observation of HS baseball the last 6 years or so there are plenty of 2-way players. I would even go as far as to think many of the top 30% or so of pitchers are 2 ways. This is at 6A 500 plus kids per grade type schools. When those same kids move into summer ball for competitive travel teams the PO count goes up dramatically. 

That being said it isn't uncommon for the very best pitchers, like top handful in HS are PO, it just becomes a matter of focus I think and what they want to do. 

College is very different, they exist but it is uncommon. IMO less then one per team that is listed as 2-way and really contribution both ways. You will see some listed as 2 way but are very seldom used both ways. 

Not sure why a HS coach would limit a 2 way athlete from contributing to the team, unless he isn't as good as other player at the position. Agree with TW players or lack there of in college....its just harder.

My answer would be time in HS and especially college.  To be an elite HS pitcher you have to put the time in every day.  To be an elite hitter/fielder you have to put the time in every day.  The two just do not work for most HS players.  You are talking twice the time invested in practice.  That is why you usually have good pitchers who play the field and hit or good fielders/hitters who pitch but very rarely great players who are great pitchers because they do not have the time or choose to have the time to put into it.  My son was a two-way in HS and is trying to be in college.  Takes about 6-8 hours a day to get all of his workouts in every day in fall for hitting and pitching.  That is a full-time job above being a student.  He put in about 1-2 hours extra every day in HS above other players to be a hitter and pitcher.  I don't think most HS coaches want to work the extra time and players want the extra time invested.

I also think coaches especially in travel/showcase push players to where they think they need to be seen for college recruiting.  Plus the more they get to be PO's the more fielders they can bring in who pay more.

adbono posted:

PABASEBALL makes an excellent point about good vs great. There really aren’t that many players at any level that are great. There are a lot that are good. The perspective of many parents is off base on the good vs great IMO. When a person has played and/or coached baseball (or any sport) at the college or pro level they tend to have a better understanding of good vs great. Being great involves things like instincts, uncanny timing, coming thru in the clutch, lots of spectacular moments, leadership skills, fearlessness and a host of other things that can’t be recorded at a PG Showcase. 

This!

I agree that HC coaches as well as travel team coaches will and should push players where they seem to fit best during recruiting.

As a HS freshman son was a 2 way player, as a sophmore and junior PO, once he committed, he became a two way player again. Had the best ERA and BA on the team and received honors as a utility guy senior year. Did that make him a 2 way guy for college, nope, he asked, they said no way....lol.  The way I see it the HS and travel team coach did their job helping him to get the best opportunity in college and that coach helped him to get the best opportunity for the draft.

So for those who have 2 way players, let the coaches handle where they best belong to receive a college scholarship.  It's not about what you think!

Most  coaches recruiting a position player with a good bat, will more than likely know he is also a fairly good pitcher, and will keep that info in the back of his mind to use later if needed.  But I don't think a college coach recruiting a pitcher, really thinks about him being a PP or a DH in his program. It's just information he may use later on, if the pitching thing doesn't work out. 

JMO

I don’t believe being a two way in high school is a big deal. The catcher, shortstop and center fielder going on to college ball are likely have big arms relative to high school. Only ten percent of high school players go on to college ball. Against most high school lineups a quality high school pitcher only has to get by three or four hitters who can really hurt him. 

When you get to travel ball providing college exposure you should make up your mind. You don’t want to diminish both talents trying to do both. You want to optimize one talent.

RJM posted:

I don’t believe being a two way in high school is a big deal. The catcher, shortstop and center fielder going on to college ball are likely have big arms relative to high school. Only ten percent of high school players go on to college ball. Against most high school lineups a quality high school pitcher only has to get by three or four hitters who can really hurt him. 

When you get to travel ball providing college exposure you should make up your mind. You don’t want to diminish both talents trying to do both. You want to optimize one talent.

That is kind of my point of my OP.  Why should a HS coach make a kid be a PO -  if he is good enough to hit and play other positions, especially if only 10% of HS kids go onto college? Why not let the kid(s) pitch, play a position and hit and have fun? Especially if HS is the end of the road. Now, if the kid is on the team to pitch only because he has nothing else to offer, that is a totally different topic - and that should be made clear by the HS coach from the beginning. My 2 cents on that.

Now, for a kid that is serious about going to college, if he knows he is PO material only, then that is a conversation and decision for the player and parents to have, along with any appropriate coaches/trainers.  I completely agree with mastering your strengths to put one in the best position for advancement as possible.  I was an outside hitter in HS volleyball, but I loved playing the setter position.  My coach let me play that position every once and a while in games and let me practice it because she knew it made volleyball fun for me.  But, my JO coach said "no-no" and I was strictly an outside hitter and only focused on that when I was with my JO team.  That is what got me to college.  That is what I feel travel/showcase teams are for - not necessarily HS.  Again - just my 2 scents. 

This all depends on your team. Our hs team is as competitive as a summer team.  There are quite a few like that in our state.     We have a kid throwing 90 who will probably ride the bench this year.  My son committed to a P5 after a sophomore year riding the bench.  If a team isn’t really strong it’s probably easy to be a two way but that is not the case in a lot of the baseball hotbed states.

Most HS coaches I've seen would have pitchers hit. But I know there is a difference between a DH/P  and a P who plays another position. I am surprised coach is limiting things and agree with Shoveit4Ks--are the other players better. For the OP, some HS players select a travel/showcase/Legion team where they can display other tools, play other positions.  If your son wants to be a 2-way players in college (and showcases really well) there are schools that will welcome it.  Probably more common at schools with smaller rosters.

Son had a college teammate who was one of the leagues top closers(good fastball, slider occasional 93MPH, and power hitters. He got hurt his senior year, and is now a graduate student at a P5 with his 4th year of eligibility. He's pitched in relief, 1B,DH and currently (it's early) has team's highest BA.

Around here, there are lots of two way players for the smaller schools, where they need every player they can get. At the bigger, more competitive schools with multiple future college players, not so much. My eldest SS/CF had the arm, but only pitched a handful of games as a reliever, and got to hate it, because it was usually in an emergency situation with little to no warning. He threw pretty hard for a non P(round 85), and his arm started to hurt, so it affected him in practice the next day, and beyond. He also hated seeing balls drop in the OF when he was pitching that he thought he could've gotten to. Another MIF friend in the same situation messed his arm up so bad he had trouble hitting, which was really bad because he was a bopper. 

Once they get to be big boys, with the big boy velo, you can't be messing around. Proper warmup, and rest between starts is essential. If you are a starting P/SS then one out of every 4 games at a minimum you will be missing from the MIF, and chances are that will throw the D out of whack. If you are smart, you also should be resting your arm properly between starts, which might mean missing another start at SS. That REALLY messes up the D. To me, the only position that is semi- ok is 1B, as the stress on the arm is minimal. DH, of course, is fine. 

   Every year i see it. Dad's bragging about how their son can play both ways, and how he has a rubber arm. I used to do it. Here's the thing...they usually don't tell you about the pain till it's bad. They might whisper among themselves, but don't tell coaches, or parents. Next thing you know, the kid is in a sling,  out for the season.

As far as colleges, I know this. Many coaches promise a kid that he will get a chance to be a two way. Very few coaches actually let a player be a two way. Exceptions are small colleges(usually HA D3's) that are not known for their baseball. They are usually desperate for anyone who can touch 80 and throw a strike. Those schools also play less games, so there is more time to rest.

Fordham has a pretty successful 2 way player that's a senior now. I believe he's done it his entire 4 year career there.

As my son was coming up through the ranks (a HS senior now) it seemed that the top players were valued more for their pitching than anything else.  It was easy for a number of them to slowly become POs without really making a conscience decision about it.  My son had to stop pitching at 14U due to a chronic elbow problem, I now think that was a blessing in disguise as his hitting really took off once he could focus on it.

Son’s HS team currently has two 2-way 2020 players committed to D1 (one is a P5). Both have been 2-way starters since sophomore year. Also have a 2018 alumni who is a 2-way at P5, Fri or Sat starter. Team isn’t shallow, the guys are just that good, and coach recognizes it.  

Just down the road from us we have three 2022s playing V in a top-25 nationally ranked program (deservedly or not) who are all 2-way players. As above, team isn’t shallow. 

So this takes the question in a slightly different directly (but not really from the OP):  which do kids prefer to do, pitch or hit/field?  Not "which is going to get them to the next level," but "which would they rather do if just given the choice"?   Understanding that they are not always given the choice in hs.

anotherparent posted:

So this takes the question in a slightly different directly (but not really from the OP):  which do kids prefer to do, pitch or hit/field?  Not "which is going to get them to the next level," but "which would they rather do if just given the choice"?   Understanding that they are not always given the choice in hs.

All pitchers want to hit any chance they get. Lots of position players have no interest in ever getting on the mound. I pitched only because that’s the only way I could play in college. So my experience is that given the choice kids would rather hit and play a position. That way you are every game instead of every 4th or 5th game. 

I can only speak on behalf of mine but his preference is to play where he's most needed to the team and what gets him on the field.   His High School coaches utilize him at SS, 3B, and 2B and he pitches depending on what the rotation and lineup are for that day.  

Most if not all "2 way players" grew up being "the guy" at least locally. They usually don't want to be told they can't play every day, so they fight against being a pitcher.  

adbono posted:

All pitchers want to hit any chance they get. Lots of position players have no interest in ever getting on the mound. I pitched only because that’s the only way I could play in college. So my experience is that given the choice kids would rather hit and play a position. That way you are every game instead of every 4th or 5th game. 

Definitely agree.  My son's HS team has several D1 committed position players who used to be good pitchers at 14/15...none of them want any part of it now.

ReluctantO'sFan posted:

Most if not all "2 way players" grew up being "the guy" at least locally. They usually don't want to be told they can't play every day, so they fight against being a pitcher.  

So true!! My kid loves to play everyday!!! It doesn't matter where coach puts him - 3rd, SS, CF, pitching...he just wants to play.  He truly LOVES the game.  But, he knows as he gets older, his arm (if he continues on the path he is on) is what will take him to the next level.  

BaseballMOM05 posted:

ReluctantO'sFan posted:

Most if not all "2 way players" grew up being "the guy" at least locally. They usually don't want to be told they can't play every day, so they fight against being a pitcher.  

So true!! My kid loves to play everyday!!! It doesn't matter where coach puts him - 3rd, SS, CF, pitching...he just wants to play.  He truly LOVES the game.  But, he knows as he gets older, his arm (if he continues on the path he is on) is what will take him to the next level.  

Had a chance to read back through this a little, and I just wanted to be clear. I'm NOT saying that your son shouldn't be a 2-way player. Sounds like at his HS, they need him to do that. I would tell him to keep having fun playing around the diamond (baseball is a game after all, and at its core is FUN). Keep us updated on his success, and I'll be rooting for him. Just don't be surprised (or think it is the end of the world) if he will need to dedicate himself to one craft as the level of competition increases. 

Why can't a pitcher be both a pitcher and a position player?......If the kid is better than the other players at certain position why would a coach not play him? Really. 

Will posted:

Why can't a pitcher be both a pitcher and a position player?......If the kid is better than the other players at certain position why would a coach not play him? Really. 

??? C'mon, that's like saying the sky is blue ??? not really the direction of the thread or did I miss something ???

adbono posted:

anotherparent posted:

...which do kids prefer to do, pitch or hit/field?  Not "which is going to get them to the next level," but "which would they rather do if just given the choice"?   Understanding that they are not always given the choice in hs.

All pitchers want to hit any chance they get. Lots of position players have no interest in ever getting on the mound. I pitched only because that’s the only way I could play in college. So my experience is that given the choice kids would rather hit and play a position. That way you are every game instead of every 4th or 5th game. 

Interesting question, anotherparent.  Agree with Adbono... I think this is most typical.  Over many years of coaching HS ball, I have had VERY few come into the program as freshmen thinking they JUST wanted to pitch.  I would take it a step further and say all kids want to hit/field and many want to do both.  But thinking it through, there are certainly some who see their strength as P, have more success there, thrive there and feel they have a bigger impact on the game so they  prefer being on the mound over in the box or playing another position.

Usually, it is some point during their HS years that it becomes apparent that they may have to choose PO if they are to earn PT and/or advance to the next level.

I think most college coaches would love to have a roster full of 2-way guys.  More bang for your scholarship buck, more options, and if a kid gets hurt or fails in one role, the team might still get production out of him in the other.

But the reality is, it's hard enough to get onto a college roster in one role.  While there are definitely guys who can handle multiple roles, they are rare beasts.  The higher the level of baseball, the harder it becomes to be both.

That's especially so given that the weight lifting regimes are markedly different for pitchers vs. hitters.  A guy who bulks up his upper body for hitting power may put himself at risk of a labrum tear if he also pitches.  Conversely, a guy following the pitching regimen might be diminished in his development of power, which gets to be a big deal when the kid who was a stud hitter in HS finds that his 380' fly ball to CF is no longer a HR, but rather, the proverbial "can of corn."

As for high school ball:  I don't know of any HS team that's as strong as a college team, plus the rosters are typically only half the size (roughly 17-18 players vs. 35).  That means you don't have to be quite as far up the ladder to play in both roles. 

But the idea that a HS coach would play someone both ways just to let them have fun?  I don't know any HS coach who feels like he's got a rec league team on his hands.  Usually, HS coaches fall into one of two camps:  The guys who play the best players period, and the guys who modify that to give seniors an edge in playing time.  I think if you go into HS ball thinking, this is just for funsies, let my kid play -- you're going to find yourself quite disappointed, and maybe land in hot water if you let those feelings come out of your mouth.

This makes me think of the recent ESPN profile of Michael Vick.  They had a quote from Bobby Bowden after his FSU team managed to outscore Va. Tech (with Vick) to win the bowl that (that year) determined the national championship.  Bowden, in his post-game presser, lavished praise on Vick, and also offered, "That's what your quarterback of the future is going to look like."

Except, not.  Why?  Because Michael Vick is a genetic freak of nature.  You can't just say, I want more of those.  That's like saying, I wish I could find a bunch of diamonds just laying around in my backyard.

I've been following MLB for nearly 50 years now, and so far, there's been exactly one Shohei Ohatani.  And a few pitchers who could swing it, but not so much that they played the field when not pitching.

Even Babe Ruth gave up pitching when he became an everyday OF.  And he was an elite MLB pitcher.  And he didn't face the universal competition for playing time that you have now -- no African Americans, no Japanese, and no huge minor league system pumping out hundreds of new rivals for playing time every year.

So, no pitchers who hated hitting and fielding?  For sure I've known some who were bad at it (really slow, couldn't hit, couldn't field...), but good at pitching.

I'm not saying anything about what a high-school (or travel, or college) coach should do, I just wondered about how players feel about it.  Obviously the best players will play, often in HS the same player is the best 2-ways.

Also, obviously it has to be "fun" to some extent, otherwise how hard will he work, and thus how far will he go?  Have you known any 2-ways who hated pitching?  That seems unlikely. 

(and, we could really detour this thread if we asked about AL vs NL and how professional pitchers feel!)

anotherparent posted:

So this takes the question in a slightly different directly (but not really from the OP):  which do kids prefer to do, pitch or hit/field?  Not "which is going to get them to the next level," but "which would they rather do if just given the choice"?   Understanding that they are not always given the choice in hs.

If a player has the ego of a top athlete he wants it all. Every sport has its “game on the line, give me the ball” moment. In baseball it’s on the mound. Yes, it could be a hitter. But it’s a one in nine shot. A hitter isn’t guaranteed getting to the plate with the winning run on second. 

As a player if I had to chose I wanted to be a position player. I couldn’t imagine not playing all the time. I hated sometimes sitting second games of doubleheaders. I also hated coming to the plate or be on the bases not at 100% from pitching. On a loaded with pitching Legion team (the best summer ball then) I told the coach I preferred to play outfield and pitch if needed. 

Maybe I influenced my son talking about my experiences. He also pitched for his high school team and played outfield. He told his 17u travel coach while outfield was the focus he was willing to eat some innings if needed. He enjoyed being on the mound when it happened. 

Will posted:

Why can't a pitcher be both a pitcher and a position player?......If the kid is better than the other players at certain position why would a coach not play him? Really. 

I agree.  But people don't like it if you go against the flow on this site lately.  I've never known a college or HS coach that would not play the best guy no matter what the label is on him.

My sons cared less if they played the field, but they wanted to hit.  Neither were ever made PO's in HS or travel/showcase ball because they hit it enough.  And as we say, if you can hit it you can play.

anotherparent posted:

... Have you known any 2-ways who hated pitching?  That seems unlikely. 

...

Well, I have had some pitchers come into the program that didn't really like pitching but had always done so because up until then, were pretty good at it.  I took those guys away from the mound in our program.  It was important to me that any guy that got the ball really wanted the ball.

Parents generally were not happy with that decision 

anotherparent posted:

So this takes the question in a slightly different directly (but not really from the OP):  which do kids prefer to do, pitch or hit/field?  Not "which is going to get them to the next level," but "which would they rather do if just given the choice"?   Understanding that they are not always given the choice in hs.

My kid has always told me "I don't want to be a pitcher, I want to play baseball". He's said that since 9 yrs old when people started to talk about his pitching. His HS coach was like "that kid is a pitcher", the kid was like "if you mean PO think again". He passed up chances to go to Jupiter because they wanted him as PO. He would still be at Nebraska if he'd agreed to PO.

"Have you known any 2-ways who hated pitching?  That seems unlikely. "

As a former pitcher, I can see why you'd think that.  But it turns out, we've had several in our program who had/have all sorts of pitching talent but just don't want to do it. 

As one example, we had one Va. Cardinals alum get very highly drafted as a position player/hitter in 2019 (3rd round).  He was low 90's off the bump without even trying hard, and he had a wipeout slider.  But he felt that pitching left his arm compromised for when he was in the field (SS in HS and still listed as a SS in MiLB), and he felt that showing as a pitcher undermined his desire to have scouts see him as an everyday player/hitter.

Based on the amount of money he got, it's hard to say he got it wrong!

I've seen other kids who want to bulk up for hitting power and who realize that this doesn't mesh with pitching. 

Over the years, I've even seen some kids who claim to have phantom elbow pain -- never so bad to keep them off their position, but bad enough that they "don't feel comfortable pitching."  It's something the kids learn -- coach may want you on the mound even if you don't want to be there, but no coach wants to risk hurting a player and so, never questions whether the pain actually exists. 

The last post really hit home. My son was attempting to pitch this year (he is a C). He suffered an arm injury that set him back 6 weeks. He has phantom pain and having trouble identifying arm soreness from pain, mainly due to fear and frustration as his velocity is at an all time low. A real challenge for him to trust the process

It's interesting because with reliever specialization and not only Ohtani but someone like Michael Lorenzen relieving and hitting, we're seeing more two-way players in the majors than we have in 100 years. I expect the trend to continue unless the rule changes (three-batter minimum) take it out. So those who find it fun to see people do it all at the MLB level, you've got a few guys to watch right now.