I just don't understand why some coaches still express, "I don't believe in pitch counts". Even down here in South Georgia we understand that if you scratch your arm long enough you will eventually hit blood.
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I'm a victim of being over-used. My problem wasn't the pitches in one game-those often were low, but pitching multiple times in a day or back to back days. If I ever coach, pitching back to back days will be quite a rarity. I feel that this constantly holds me back when I throw (my overuse from the past).
quote:Originally posted by Dtiger:
I'm a victim of being over-used. My problem wasn't the pitches in one game-those often were low, but pitching multiple times in a day or back to back days. If I ever coach, pitching back to back days will be quite a rarity. I feel that this constantly holds me back when I throw (my overuse from the past).
Dtiger,
Sorry to hear about your problems.
Can you elaborate on your experience?
Did you play a lot of tournaments? Travel teams? Did you pitch multiple times in a weekend?
I ask because I believe that these kinds of scenarios are bad, but haven't heard of any good horror stories to scare people with.
Your story might enlighten some people.
I was the ace, the closer, relief pitcher. Whenever the situation was needed, I came in... and usually got the job done. I loved it. There was one time I remember I closed a game (1 2/3 innings) one night, then the next day I pitched a complete game (7 innings) against that same team.
In general, yes lots of tournaments. Tournaments with each bracket play game a team won, each pitcher on the team received an additional inning. My arm was rubber, my velocity above average for the age, and my offspeed dominating. I don't blame the coach, I wanted it, I lived for it, and honestly I couldn't say I'd change a thing. I'm a pitcher, always was, never a thrower. I never was a max effort guy. In the tournament scenario I described above, one time I made 3 appearances in one day. I closed 1 game-2 innings. Played 2nd some, closed another game 2 1/3 innings. And then I started the last game (4th of the day) and threw three innings. We won that game, my velocity at the end was the same as the first pitch I threw (actually recorded), but the toal started wearing. A year and a half ago I had a shoulder problem where my shoulder blade on my throwing arm was 2-3 inches (if not more) below the other shoulder blade. This is a number 1 sign for proving overuse (so everyone check your son's shoulder blades and make sure they are aligned). If caught early, it's no big deal. I met with a doctor and that problem was easily fixed, but the wear and tear my arm had taken due to that problem (it hurts the arm exponentially... the more it hurts the arm, the greater it hurts the arm at once... if that makes sense). I'm still a pitcher, number one for my HS this year as a junior. I love it. I live off changing speeds and accurracy (the fact that I'm 5ft 8 doesn't help).
My team was very competitive. I've won 2 National championships-one when I was 13 and one when I was 15 (actually won 16U AABC). The success came with a price. I begged to go into games. I use to warm up before the coach even told me, then stand next to the coach until he told me I was going in. Also what hurt is I usually started SS/2B. This meant I'd have to "plan" my warmups according to at-bats and being in the infield. This caused me to warm up many times unnecessarily just so I'd be ready.
I love winning, but if a coach sees he has a truly great talent (which I'm not calling myself), but if the kid is special... control yourself (PLEASE!) to help his future. I won't blame a single coach, but I would blame any coach if he didn't after reading this.
In general, yes lots of tournaments. Tournaments with each bracket play game a team won, each pitcher on the team received an additional inning. My arm was rubber, my velocity above average for the age, and my offspeed dominating. I don't blame the coach, I wanted it, I lived for it, and honestly I couldn't say I'd change a thing. I'm a pitcher, always was, never a thrower. I never was a max effort guy. In the tournament scenario I described above, one time I made 3 appearances in one day. I closed 1 game-2 innings. Played 2nd some, closed another game 2 1/3 innings. And then I started the last game (4th of the day) and threw three innings. We won that game, my velocity at the end was the same as the first pitch I threw (actually recorded), but the toal started wearing. A year and a half ago I had a shoulder problem where my shoulder blade on my throwing arm was 2-3 inches (if not more) below the other shoulder blade. This is a number 1 sign for proving overuse (so everyone check your son's shoulder blades and make sure they are aligned). If caught early, it's no big deal. I met with a doctor and that problem was easily fixed, but the wear and tear my arm had taken due to that problem (it hurts the arm exponentially... the more it hurts the arm, the greater it hurts the arm at once... if that makes sense). I'm still a pitcher, number one for my HS this year as a junior. I love it. I live off changing speeds and accurracy (the fact that I'm 5ft 8 doesn't help).
My team was very competitive. I've won 2 National championships-one when I was 13 and one when I was 15 (actually won 16U AABC). The success came with a price. I begged to go into games. I use to warm up before the coach even told me, then stand next to the coach until he told me I was going in. Also what hurt is I usually started SS/2B. This meant I'd have to "plan" my warmups according to at-bats and being in the infield. This caused me to warm up many times unnecessarily just so I'd be ready.
I love winning, but if a coach sees he has a truly great talent (which I'm not calling myself), but if the kid is special... control yourself (PLEASE!) to help his future. I won't blame a single coach, but I would blame any coach if he didn't after reading this.
quote:Originally posted by Dtiger:
My arm was rubber
Obviously, it wasn't rubber.
quote:Originally posted by Dtiger:
I won't blame a single coach, but I would blame any coach if he didn't after reading this.
Plenty of blame to go around. The coach, the parents who stood by & let it happen.
Hopefully someone will learn from the tough experience you have gone through.
I don't really consider it a tough experience. My pitch count totals were never high... what coaches don't consider (and I failed to put enough emphasis on this) is the warming up/cooling down. That, maybe more than my appearances, is what may have caused my problem. My doctor told me my injury was consistent with overuse and not enough time for healing. He said pitching a game and then playing a position later that day (within 3-4 hours of the last pitch) can cause the same exact thing. It's also important to note that I have an abnormally loose shoulder which allowed me to not feel pain as much. The ligaments are looser... so I shouldn't say pain, but I didn't get as tired. This is why I say it was rubber. I never felt pain during any of it... and when I started feeling it, it was after 1 month of resting. Really weird if you ask me. But once again, he said my condition was one that is much more common than people think and most kids can play through it until it gets to the point where they are losing velocity like mad (I was down to 70mph where now I'm around 82-84).
I'm a mature kid, always was, and I alone am responsible. No coach asked me to do that, I told them I wanted to. Yes I know you'll say it's their job... but when the wing feels great as it did, and a kid's effective and has the burning desire to be in there in the crunch... it's going to be hard to say no.
Once again, I'd like to bring to any coaches attention: warming up is just like pitching in he game (or it is for me). Those pitches count too... warming up 2-3 times in a game is like throwing 1-2 innings.
I'm a mature kid, always was, and I alone am responsible. No coach asked me to do that, I told them I wanted to. Yes I know you'll say it's their job... but when the wing feels great as it did, and a kid's effective and has the burning desire to be in there in the crunch... it's going to be hard to say no.
Once again, I'd like to bring to any coaches attention: warming up is just like pitching in he game (or it is for me). Those pitches count too... warming up 2-3 times in a game is like throwing 1-2 innings.
quote:Originally posted by Dtiger:
I'm a mature kid, always was, and I alone am responsible.
The key word here is "kid", with no offense intended.
The coach and the parents are both responsible.
The coach was either ignorant (which is not a good excuse) or chose to ignore (which is even worse).
The parents are perhaps responsible to a lesser degree, assuming they were unaware of the dangers of overuse. If they had been made aware, then they are just as responsible as the coach.
The kid is not responsible. He is not mature enough to properly weigh the long term vs. the short term - no matter how mature he is compared to his peers.
You say you don't consider it a tough experience. So you are just fine with having significantly less velocity now? And with the detrimental effect that will have should you try to attract colleges' attention as a pitcher? Perhaps tough may not be the word. But "undesirable" would certainly fit the bill.
There are no excuses for a coach abusing a young pitcher's arm.
If this "kid" is mature enuff to make this post then he is mature "enuff" to tell the coach "enuff is enuff"
He obviously was not mature enough to KNOW that enough was enough...
... and even if he's mature enough to post it NOW, what he's talking about happened some years ago.
Absolutely correct, MD.
More to the point:
Most coaches will say to parents, you need to butt out and let your son handle his relationship with me.
I appreciate that meddlesome parents can ruin everything and the up-front defense is a good approach. No argument there.
But this system is abused if what the coach actually does is intimidate the player and then prevent the parents -- the only other adults in the picture -- from intervening.
I'm not saying all coaches intimidate players. But many do. Players often learn early on that even the most polite approach to the coach is taken as a challenge to his authority, resulting in benching or worse.
In cases of overuse, I do think the parents have a responsibility to butt in and put their feet down. You don't have a right to tell the coach how to run the team, how to allocate playing time, etc. You DO have a right to insist that he not sacrifice your son's long-term health and prospects to one high school game today.
In fact, it's not just a right, it's an obligation.
(That's for high school. If it's a travel team, your obligation is to find another team entirely.)
Most coaches will say to parents, you need to butt out and let your son handle his relationship with me.
I appreciate that meddlesome parents can ruin everything and the up-front defense is a good approach. No argument there.
But this system is abused if what the coach actually does is intimidate the player and then prevent the parents -- the only other adults in the picture -- from intervening.
I'm not saying all coaches intimidate players. But many do. Players often learn early on that even the most polite approach to the coach is taken as a challenge to his authority, resulting in benching or worse.
In cases of overuse, I do think the parents have a responsibility to butt in and put their feet down. You don't have a right to tell the coach how to run the team, how to allocate playing time, etc. You DO have a right to insist that he not sacrifice your son's long-term health and prospects to one high school game today.
In fact, it's not just a right, it's an obligation.
(That's for high school. If it's a travel team, your obligation is to find another team entirely.)
quote:Originally posted by Dtiger:
I'm a mature kid, always was, and I alone am responsible.
Regardless of who was responsible, the above statement does represent the correct attitude. I try to teach my 13/14yo pitchers that taking care of their arm is their responsibility even though I still look after them. But I don't think it's really sunk in with them yet.
dtiger, do you know the name for your condition (one shoulder hanging lower than the other)? I can't seem to recall it.
Roger Tomas- I don't recall the name, but if you'd like the name of the Dr. I can give you that in a PM.
To everyone else- I hold maturity as quite a valuable thing. I always played up 3-4 years when I was younger (6-9)... more of a show to Dallas Little League. You don't really know the full situation. The coach was very careful with my arm (knowing I had a similar shoulder problem when I was 8 and an elbow problem when I was 9... both caused due to the fact that I was maturing WAY early). I think I did such a great job of doing everything to keep my arm healthy (running, icing, stretching after I pitched) that I never saw a way for me to get hurt. Little did I know, this injury was caused by a condition I was born with. My pitch counts usually were low, I never worked too hard for each pitch. I seriously think that what did me in was the warming up.
Texan- You mentioned how I felt about this affecting my college possibilities. I really don't think so. The type of pitcher I am-sinker baller with tons of junk... it wouldn't do me much good to be 3-4 mph faster. Fact is: I'm a 5ft 8in pitcher who relies on being smarter-not more physically gifted- to get kids out. Now of course, having said that, I'm not saying it was OK. I love every one of the coaches I've had the priveledge of being able to learn from. To say they neglected my arm or were too consumed in winning is utterly crazy. If anything, I've been more overused in the last year AFTER my injury (this is in HS) than before... obviously my personal feelings.
To everyone else- I hold maturity as quite a valuable thing. I always played up 3-4 years when I was younger (6-9)... more of a show to Dallas Little League. You don't really know the full situation. The coach was very careful with my arm (knowing I had a similar shoulder problem when I was 8 and an elbow problem when I was 9... both caused due to the fact that I was maturing WAY early). I think I did such a great job of doing everything to keep my arm healthy (running, icing, stretching after I pitched) that I never saw a way for me to get hurt. Little did I know, this injury was caused by a condition I was born with. My pitch counts usually were low, I never worked too hard for each pitch. I seriously think that what did me in was the warming up.
Texan- You mentioned how I felt about this affecting my college possibilities. I really don't think so. The type of pitcher I am-sinker baller with tons of junk... it wouldn't do me much good to be 3-4 mph faster. Fact is: I'm a 5ft 8in pitcher who relies on being smarter-not more physically gifted- to get kids out. Now of course, having said that, I'm not saying it was OK. I love every one of the coaches I've had the priveledge of being able to learn from. To say they neglected my arm or were too consumed in winning is utterly crazy. If anything, I've been more overused in the last year AFTER my injury (this is in HS) than before... obviously my personal feelings.
I am suprised that no one commented on the "shoulder blade" item Dtiger talked about. Our pitching coach is really big on back exercises. In fact, the majority of our pitcher conditioning relates to the back. The height of the shoulder blades does indicate overuse. It also indicates lack of back strength conditioning.
quote:Originally posted by Savannah:
I am suprised that no one commented on the "shoulder blade" item Dtiger talked about.
Well, I didn't comment on it but I did ask for the name of it. I believe there is a name. Do you know it?
quote:Originally posted by Dtiger:
To say they neglected my arm or were too consumed in winning is utterly crazy.
That statement is in direct conflict with what you have described earlier. Either you didn't pitch on inadequate rest (multiple appearances in one day, appearances on consecutive days, excessive warmups, etc.) as you said you did, or the coaches did not take care of your arm. One of the two.
A crafty pitcher in the low 80's can do well. But so can a crafty pitcher in the high 80's. And the latter will be more attractive to the colleges.
Good luck this spring.
No 13/14 year old no mattrer how much you teach them to respect their arm knows the consequences that may lie ahead. The responsibility lies on the coaches and parents, IMO. However, MANY coaches and parents have no clue about pitch counts, cool downs, rest in between starts, etc.
Our son HATED us when he was younger. We were very careful that he never pitched a game and then threw the next day, had sufficient rest and watched his total innings and pitch counts for years. And we would not allow him to play with certain coaches, championships or not.
I think son is VERY grateful for the periods when he hated us "butting" in. While all of the "stud" guys in middle and high school were being over used and now not pitching, he remained healthy, has a wonderful scholarship and possible future in pro ball.
DTiger, you did blame coaches then put the responsibility on yourself.
Our son HATED us when he was younger. We were very careful that he never pitched a game and then threw the next day, had sufficient rest and watched his total innings and pitch counts for years. And we would not allow him to play with certain coaches, championships or not.
I think son is VERY grateful for the periods when he hated us "butting" in. While all of the "stud" guys in middle and high school were being over used and now not pitching, he remained healthy, has a wonderful scholarship and possible future in pro ball.
DTiger, you did blame coaches then put the responsibility on yourself.
quote:Originally posted by Roger Tomas:quote:Originally posted by Savannah:
I am suprised that no one commented on the "shoulder blade" item Dtiger talked about.
Well, I didn't comment on it but I did ask for the name of it. I believe there is a name. Do you know it?
Never mind - I found it. It's Scapular Rotator Dysfunction or “SICK” Scapula Syndrome.
quote:Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
No 13/14 year old no mattrer how much you teach them to respect their arm knows the consequences that may lie ahead. The responsibility lies on the coaches and parents, IMO. However, MANY coaches and parents have no clue about pitch counts, cool downs, rest in between starts, etc.
Not sure if this part of your comment was directed at me but it is because I know my kids may one day have a coach that doesn't respect their arms that I try to teach them to take on that responsibility. When that point comes, they will no longer be under my watch and there will be nothing I can do to help them. The best I can do now is try to teach them to care for their arms while they are still under my watch. To do anything less would be a disservice to them.
Roger Thomas, it was not directed at you. Teaching your kids at a young age (actually drilling it into their heads 
) is a good start and part of your responsibility. It does take a while to sink in, perhaps not until years from that age, you are doing the right thing. But at that age, IMHO, it is still up to parents and coaches to use good judgment. If a pitcher is over used at 13/14 he most likely will not realize it until he is much older, and should not place blame on himself.
I should have explained myself better.
DTiger, one never knows where the actual damage occurs and lots depends on growth. Who knows if it was the extra warm ups, but a combination of things. Pitch an inning one night and then 7 the next day! 3 appearances in one day, just amazing. I'll bet they encouraged you to throw curve balls. My son begged too, but it fell on deaf ears because his coaches showed responsibility. I can tell you one thing, no way would my son have ever played for any of those coaches. Has nothing to do with being "special", all young arms should be treated the same.
Your situation is a good reminder for all to sit up and take notice, good luck to you.
) is a good start and part of your responsibility. It does take a while to sink in, perhaps not until years from that age, you are doing the right thing. But at that age, IMHO, it is still up to parents and coaches to use good judgment. If a pitcher is over used at 13/14 he most likely will not realize it until he is much older, and should not place blame on himself.I should have explained myself better.
DTiger, one never knows where the actual damage occurs and lots depends on growth. Who knows if it was the extra warm ups, but a combination of things. Pitch an inning one night and then 7 the next day! 3 appearances in one day, just amazing. I'll bet they encouraged you to throw curve balls. My son begged too, but it fell on deaf ears because his coaches showed responsibility. I can tell you one thing, no way would my son have ever played for any of those coaches. Has nothing to do with being "special", all young arms should be treated the same.
Your situation is a good reminder for all to sit up and take notice, good luck to you.
TPM 
quote:Originally posted by Texan:
TPM
Texan,
I know plenty of pitchers in my area that fell under the same circumstances as DTiger and for many who know me, it drives me nuts!
When my son began pitching, 13 years ago, at 8, we didn't have the information that is available these days to know when "enuff is enuff". Dk's dad was pretty adament about time on the mound, and finally relented after son went off to college because it was not in our control anymore. He has pretty sound mechanics and a loose arm, which probably has helped, but his time on the mound as a young prospect has been "controlled". One summer he played for a coach and while on the road (without us) he was allowed to throw a pitch he never was allowed to throw (forkball) and used a bit too much that week. That fall he suffered tendinitous and had to shut down for 4 months. At 16 he learned a big lesson and so did we, and you can bet he never played for that coach again and tis was a coach we trusted.
I am amazed, that with all the info today how many coaches still continue to over use and not show good judgement. And how amny parents turn the other cheek. This goes for ALL levels of coaches,and very much seen in college, not as often but still takes place. I see pitchers who have put in an extrodinary amount of time on the mound, and closed one game, started the next, or vice versa and it is pretty much predictable by seasons end they would be in trouble.
I said I was a victim of overuse... not saying the coach's made me do it. Like I said, I think it's more of what was done outside of each outing. Pitching a game, then playing SS, or coming from SS to pitch. I agree that the coach should step in if there is obvious overuse... but my arm felt fine. Every single coach always asked a good number of times. What I didn't understand was, how much harm could it do if I threw 10 pitches yesterday.
I also failed to mention, or bring to enough attention, I matured way early... like WAY early. My understanding was that once the maturation process had finished (it seemingly had by the time I was around 14... and most of this was occurring) that my arm would tell me when to stop... it never did. I know pain, I know when it hurts... my dad when I was 8 thought I was faking an injury, turns out it was similar to what I had again later. I usually know my body pretty well. I didn't predict what happened in the future. But honestly I can't complain, my life would be no different if I wasn't used much.
My coaches, who I feel should not be criticized because I overused my arm, always went through every way possible to make sure I was fine. I did my exercises from my previous injuries, and for 3+ years my arm was great. When I looked back on those seasons numbers, my innings pitched were not considerably higher than any pitcher. Nothing was too shocking. I think it had to do with timing, insufficient rest (never having an offseason... even though I rarely pitched in the fall), and an unlucky condition I was born with. Yes someone could've stepped in... and you know what, they did... but honestly, when a kid's arm feels great... and is effective... as nice as it sounds to say here, a coach is going to use him.
Also, I was not a big curve-ball guy until I was... half way through my 14y/o summer season. I was a change-up, sinker baller, who could also cut the ball. I use to throw a big ole slow thing that acted like a curve but was more like a loopy change-up (when I was 12). I only did it after much practice with a pitching coach, and no... no one was forcing it on me. My pitching coach is the best in the area of DFW... that isn't outrageously expensive. All my pitches are done properly to minimize stress.
My message is simple, watch the pitch counts yes, but watch what goes on outside of pitch counts. Throws from short in practice, one after the other, aren't easy... especially when you're trying to impress a coach. Pitching one game-having a normal pitch count- and playing in the next game can be hurtful... stuff like that.
I also failed to mention, or bring to enough attention, I matured way early... like WAY early. My understanding was that once the maturation process had finished (it seemingly had by the time I was around 14... and most of this was occurring) that my arm would tell me when to stop... it never did. I know pain, I know when it hurts... my dad when I was 8 thought I was faking an injury, turns out it was similar to what I had again later. I usually know my body pretty well. I didn't predict what happened in the future. But honestly I can't complain, my life would be no different if I wasn't used much.
My coaches, who I feel should not be criticized because I overused my arm, always went through every way possible to make sure I was fine. I did my exercises from my previous injuries, and for 3+ years my arm was great. When I looked back on those seasons numbers, my innings pitched were not considerably higher than any pitcher. Nothing was too shocking. I think it had to do with timing, insufficient rest (never having an offseason... even though I rarely pitched in the fall), and an unlucky condition I was born with. Yes someone could've stepped in... and you know what, they did... but honestly, when a kid's arm feels great... and is effective... as nice as it sounds to say here, a coach is going to use him.
Also, I was not a big curve-ball guy until I was... half way through my 14y/o summer season. I was a change-up, sinker baller, who could also cut the ball. I use to throw a big ole slow thing that acted like a curve but was more like a loopy change-up (when I was 12). I only did it after much practice with a pitching coach, and no... no one was forcing it on me. My pitching coach is the best in the area of DFW... that isn't outrageously expensive. All my pitches are done properly to minimize stress.
My message is simple, watch the pitch counts yes, but watch what goes on outside of pitch counts. Throws from short in practice, one after the other, aren't easy... especially when you're trying to impress a coach. Pitching one game-having a normal pitch count- and playing in the next game can be hurtful... stuff like that.
No DTiger, I cannot agree with you.
You were a young player who enjoyed winning and enjoyed being the "go to" guy.
Your coaches were the ADULTS. They should have known what was best for you, not YOU. They were the coaches the ones in control, not YOU.
But if you were hurting and threw that was your fault, that is where your responsibility lies.
JMO.
You were a young player who enjoyed winning and enjoyed being the "go to" guy.
Your coaches were the ADULTS. They should have known what was best for you, not YOU. They were the coaches the ones in control, not YOU.
But if you were hurting and threw that was your fault, that is where your responsibility lies.
JMO.
quote:Originally posted by Dtiger:
My coaches, who I feel should not be criticized because I overused my arm, always went through every way possible to make sure I was fine.
No, they absolutely did not go through every way possible. What you have related as your experience makes that incredibly obvious.
quote:
Yes someone could've stepped in... and you know what, they did... but honestly, when a kid's arm feels great... and is effective... as nice as it sounds to say here, a coach is going to use him.
Nope. That just isn't true. I personally coached enough seasons to disprove that. When a kid reached his pitch count limit, he was done. I didn't ask him how he felt. It didn't matter. I didn't care what the score was, or how well he had pitched. I just went to the mound, took the ball, told him "good job" & called for the bullpen. Some of them didn't like it at times. But they understood that I was looking out for their long term interest. And that they were more important to me than any one ball game.
And if I saw any signs of tiring before the pitch count limit was reached, I switched pitchers.
I will state this unequivocally - there is no excuse for not observing pitch counts limits or rest. None. The risk is not worth it.
DT, when you have grown much older and matured more, you will see this.
quote:Originally posted by Texan:quote:Originally posted by Dtiger:
My coaches, who I feel should not be criticized because I overused my arm, always went through every way possible to make sure I was fine.
No, they absolutely did not go through every way possible. What you have related as your experience makes that incredibly obvious.quote:
Yes someone could've stepped in... and you know what, they did... but honestly, when a kid's arm feels great... and is effective... as nice as it sounds to say here, a coach is going to use him.
Nope. That just isn't true. I personally coached enough seasons to disprove that. When a kid reached his pitch count limit, he was done. I didn't ask him how he felt. It didn't matter. I didn't care what the score was, or how well he had pitched. I just went to the mound, took the ball, told him "good job" & called for the bullpen. Some of them didn't like it at times. But they understood that I was looking out for their long term interest. And that they were more important to me than any one ball game.
And if I saw any signs of tiring before the pitch count limit was reached, I switched pitchers.
I will state this unequivocally - there is no excuse for not observing pitch counts limits or rest. None. The risk is not worth it.
DT, when you have grown much older and matured more, you will see this.
I'm honestly tired of this. My pitch counts in a days time no-matter how many outings were rarely over 80pitches... when kids were usually up to 90 (being the limit). Sure when I got in a groove I might get to 90-100 range. That's what ya'll don't seem to understand... it wasn't just the pitch counts. My PITCH counts were fine, but top that onto throwing in a game, sitting in a dugout for long innings and almost starting the cool down process, warming up multiple times, pitching in a game then playing SS an hour later (or visa versa), and you will have an overused arm. My coach didn't consider that, but who does? Maybe you do, and I commend you, but most don't. Not to mention, I'm a low effort pitcher who's never relied on speed.
You don't seem to understand that warming up multiple times, throwing in multiple games in one day, throwing on consecutive days, etc. ARE things that a coach can & should control. They are things that any good coach takes into consideration. And I can guarantee you that I was not the only coach in the world who did so.
You say that pitch counts weren't a problem, but then you talk about 90-100 pitches.
You are constantly conflicting yourself.
I'm glad you liked your coaches. Your loyalty is commendable. But they did a poor job of looking out for their pitchers' arms. De facto...
This one is beat to death. I'm certain you will have a much different outlook when you are older. At least I hope so. Especially if you coach one day.
You say that pitch counts weren't a problem, but then you talk about 90-100 pitches.
You are constantly conflicting yourself.
I'm glad you liked your coaches. Your loyalty is commendable. But they did a poor job of looking out for their pitchers' arms. De facto...
This one is beat to death. I'm certain you will have a much different outlook when you are older. At least I hope so. Especially if you coach one day.
DTiger,
We hear everything you are saying, your pitch counts were fine, but all the added other stuff, plus pitch counts adds up.
I think you do understand, but ultimately, your coaches, or whoever was coaching you at the time, should have known better.
We hear everything you are saying, your pitch counts were fine, but all the added other stuff, plus pitch counts adds up.
I think you do understand, but ultimately, your coaches, or whoever was coaching you at the time, should have known better.
Texan- I think I already agree with your outlook... which is probably why I got frustrated. The number of times I was in that 90-100 range was few and far between I promise you (I'm efficient). Usually I was around 75. The only high pitch counts came in big games... 4-6 I can remember off the top of my head. The point of my original message (although after re-reading it I didn't convey it cleary enough) was to say exactly what you said about the warming up, etc. I'd bet that most coaches DON'T consider that... at least at the youth level where some dads are still involved (my coaches weren't). Also, one thing I failed to mention... at a young age this probably doesn't come into affect, but as a kid matures, I would think looking at the type of pitches he throws (stressfull situations vs. easy situations could be a factor). A kid who throws 30 pitches with people constantly on base might be worse off than a kid who throws 50 and breezes through. Any thoughts on that? I'm curious if others agree.
This has been a lot of fun to read. I see a lot of truth in everyone's posts. Thank you all for such good, interesting stuff.
All of this brings to mind the main reason that I would never let OPson pitch more than about 10-15 innings a year until he was 13 years old. That and the fact that he was always the only catcher on his team and there wasn't anyone else to catch.
I knew that he would ultimately become a pitcher when he was a young tike, but I had patience.
I'm glad I did!
Dtiger.........I wish you the best this year and in the future. I'm glad you're arm is good now. I'm sure you've learned a good lesson and hopefully with this thread, you will help others as well.
All of this brings to mind the main reason that I would never let OPson pitch more than about 10-15 innings a year until he was 13 years old. That and the fact that he was always the only catcher on his team and there wasn't anyone else to catch.
I knew that he would ultimately become a pitcher when he was a young tike, but I had patience.
I'm glad I did!
Dtiger.........I wish you the best this year and in the future. I'm glad you're arm is good now. I'm sure you've learned a good lesson and hopefully with this thread, you will help others as well.
Keep in mind also that a certain pitch count for one kid is not necessarily the same for another---not only does a pitcher need to know his limits but so do the coaches---every kid is different in terms of what they can and cannot do
Very true, TR and a good point. Some pitchers I held to a pitch count of only about three fourths of others. Those with lesser mechanics, for instance, need to be treated more conservatively.
And they each show different signs of tiring. On any given day, a pitcher might not be able to go his normal pitch count.
And they each show different signs of tiring. On any given day, a pitcher might not be able to go his normal pitch count.
Texan
Agreed
Each day and each kid is different--- we have finally gotten to a point where our kids have faith in us and themselves and tell us when they are ready to come out---takes educating them but it is great when it happens
Agreed
Each day and each kid is different--- we have finally gotten to a point where our kids have faith in us and themselves and tell us when they are ready to come out---takes educating them but it is great when it happens
quote:Originally posted by Texan:
Very true, TR and a good point. Some pitchers I held to a pitch count of only about three fourths of others. Those with lesser mechanics, for instance, need to be treated more conservatively.
And they each show different signs of tiring. On any given day, a pitcher might not be able to go his normal pitch count.
Just curious. If you as a coach are truly good at recognizing when a pitcher has tired, do you think this is a better approach to managing your arms that simply relying on pitch counts? Does relying on pitch counts lead coaches to "slacking off" on really paying attention to their pitchers? Would love to hear others' opinions on this.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
Texan
Agreed
Each day and each kid is different--- we have finally gotten to a point where our kids have faith in us and themselves and tell us when they are ready to come out---takes educating them but it is great when it happens
Good accomplishment. They believe what you have told them & have faith in you.
quote:Originally posted by Roger Tomas:
If you as a coach are truly good at recognizing when a pitcher has tired, do you think this is a better approach to managing your arms that simply relying on pitch counts? Does relying on pitch counts lead coaches to "slacking off" on really paying attention to their pitchers? Would love to hear others' opinions on this.
When I coached, it was whichever came first. If I saw signs of a pitcher tiring he came out right then. If not, he came out when he reached his pitch count limit. The vast majority of the time, the pitch count was reached first.
As a parent of highschool pitcher/infielder I can identify with all the issues Dtiger has gone through. The beginning of the season and all the practices for positions plus your turn in the bullpens make for a tightrope to walk on. It takes an exceptional coach to communicate well with the player as well his own judgement to know when to rest their arms or pull them from the game. My son relies on pitch counts during bullpens and games because he will tell you once the adrenalin (sp?)kicks in he can't feel any pain or soreness till it's too late. I believe the riskiest years for a pitcher is age 13 to 16. Their bodies are changing quickly , muscles get stronger faster then ligaments and the total stresses on the shoulder girdle are tremendeous. At any one time it seems like 3-5 pitchers in the program are down temporarily for the "overuse" catchall phrase. I'm certain that no one is deliberately trying to hurt these kids but the high school years are what they are.
I'd like to comment on Tiger's statement that he matured way too early.
Thinking back to the "star" travel league pitchers ages 8-14, it seems the vast majority of the ones I can think of eventually had arm problems. I'm guessing there are a variety of reasons: Exceeding pitch counts, growth plate issues, not warming up properly, poor mechanics, overuse, not long-tossing, etc. but it does make me feel fortunate that my own son didn't start to mature until later.
I think that's a huge point. There are a combination of factors at play but most importanly coaches at the youth level need to pay more attention to developing and using more pitchers and stop viewing 2-3 youth players as stud "stars" who get all the mound time simply because they happened to have matured before the other kids. It's a disservice to all involved. Who the heck cares how fast a kid throws at age 13?
Thinking back to the "star" travel league pitchers ages 8-14, it seems the vast majority of the ones I can think of eventually had arm problems. I'm guessing there are a variety of reasons: Exceeding pitch counts, growth plate issues, not warming up properly, poor mechanics, overuse, not long-tossing, etc. but it does make me feel fortunate that my own son didn't start to mature until later.
I think that's a huge point. There are a combination of factors at play but most importanly coaches at the youth level need to pay more attention to developing and using more pitchers and stop viewing 2-3 youth players as stud "stars" who get all the mound time simply because they happened to have matured before the other kids. It's a disservice to all involved. Who the heck cares how fast a kid throws at age 13?
If you knew you were being overused and had shoulder problems since you were eight --- please sit down. You were just an injury waiting to happen --- Your coach and your parents are to blame. Period.
doctor told me my injury was consistent with overuse
Coaches overuse pitchers --- pitchers don't overuse pitchers!
I'm a mature kid, always was, and I alone am responsible. No coach asked me to do that, I told them I wanted to:
Who cares what you think. You're not calling the shots -- the coach is. (and if the coach ain’t calling them right when it comes to abuse, then the parents need to step in)
Once again, I'd like to bring to any coaches attention;
Read the previous paragraph!!! You can't have it both ways --- if you think kids are responsible then you need to bring it the kids' attention.
I hold maturity as quite a valuable thing. I always played up 3-4 years when I was younger (6-9)...
Playing up has nothing to do with maturity as it is being discussed here. We’re talking the maturity that allows one the ability to make intelligent choices based on proven facts –
I had a similar shoulder problem when I was 8 and an elbow problem when I was 9...
Wow!
To say they neglected my arm or were too consumed in winning is utterly crazy. If anything, I've been more overused in the last year AFTER my injury (this is in HS) than before... obviously my personal feelings.
After all these problems consistent with overuse and you continue to continue down this path is unbeleivable?
I said I was a victim of overuse... not saying the coach's made me do it.
Victim AND Perpetrator all rolled into one --- PLEASE.
But honestly I can't complain, my life would be no different if I wasn't used much.
How in the world can you say that? You never know what the future holds for a young intelligent man with a health arm.
Let me add that while my son was in high school I stepped in and stopped my son’s overuse. The coach called me over the same day we had the head to head confrontation and told me that my son had told him he wanted to pitch. I told him I didn’t give a (expletive deleted) what he wanted.
Fungo
doctor told me my injury was consistent with overuse
Coaches overuse pitchers --- pitchers don't overuse pitchers!
I'm a mature kid, always was, and I alone am responsible. No coach asked me to do that, I told them I wanted to:
Who cares what you think. You're not calling the shots -- the coach is. (and if the coach ain’t calling them right when it comes to abuse, then the parents need to step in)
Once again, I'd like to bring to any coaches attention;
Read the previous paragraph!!! You can't have it both ways --- if you think kids are responsible then you need to bring it the kids' attention.
I hold maturity as quite a valuable thing. I always played up 3-4 years when I was younger (6-9)...
Playing up has nothing to do with maturity as it is being discussed here. We’re talking the maturity that allows one the ability to make intelligent choices based on proven facts –
I had a similar shoulder problem when I was 8 and an elbow problem when I was 9...
Wow!
To say they neglected my arm or were too consumed in winning is utterly crazy. If anything, I've been more overused in the last year AFTER my injury (this is in HS) than before... obviously my personal feelings.
After all these problems consistent with overuse and you continue to continue down this path is unbeleivable?
I said I was a victim of overuse... not saying the coach's made me do it.
Victim AND Perpetrator all rolled into one --- PLEASE.
But honestly I can't complain, my life would be no different if I wasn't used much.
How in the world can you say that? You never know what the future holds for a young intelligent man with a health arm.
Let me add that while my son was in high school I stepped in and stopped my son’s overuse. The coach called me over the same day we had the head to head confrontation and told me that my son had told him he wanted to pitch. I told him I didn’t give a (expletive deleted) what he wanted.
Fungo
